Suggested Custom Specials for every character

[Spirst]

I'm no Greninja player, but isn't that the counter that you can angle in almost every direction once they hit it?

Default substitute can do that as well but already comes out slowly. An even slower variant of it is nearly worthless against a competent opponent.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Default substitute can do that as well but already comes out slowly. An even slower variant of it is nearly worthless against a competent opponent.

Ah, that makes sense.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I don't mean to disrespect Greninja, but aren't most of its specials easy to punish? Niko Mar brought up the following to me the other day...

No really, why do people think Greg is OP? He's definitely fast, but it's not like he has all of these crazy strong and safe moves. Water shurikens take a while to charge (nor can you save the charge), side b can be heavily punished, up b is good but takes skill to control, and down b can be punished even when you land it! Not to mention how the counter window is really small compared to others.

 

[popsofctown]

Honestly, you may have a tough time here with varying opinions and alot of unproven theorycraft uses for moves.

Purple should not mean other moves are red in that section. Red should be reserved for moves that are nearly not functional.
Purples are simply the most powerful option in practical situations (Counter Timber, Dashing Assault etc.) and should be rare imo.

Most custom moves spots have 2 options that may see some use (or all 3 are so bad that it almost doesn't matter).

Sparing use of the color red would be much like sparing use of the f-bomb in an argument: extra impactful and devastating. And I don't want to devastate the seemingly unusable moves that bad. If every single person who looks at every character set finds one red move they are convinced in their heart is assessed incorrectly, then they will take the entire thread with enough grains of salt to continue to innovate and explore and create on their own.


@ Mario & Sonic Guy : Please move your post to the Character Competitive Impressions thread. Whether Greninja's specials are weak as a group doesn't have any bearing on a thread for guiding players to choose between them properly

 

[FullMoon]

I don't mean to disrespect Greninja, but aren't most of its specials easy to punish? Niko Mar brought up the following to me the other day...

Shadow Sneak and Substitute are very easy to punish, yeah. But Shadow Sneak is supposed to be used to catch the opponent off-guard and Substitute is just plain bad.

Also most of the time you're going to be spamming uncharged shurikens anyway to chip away at the opponent and stop their approaches. Charged Water Shurikens take a while, yes, but it's not like you can't release the charge once you see the opponent coming. It might even hit them if they're not expecting it.

 

[Spirst]

I don't mean to disrespect Greninja, but aren't most of its specials easy to punish? Niko Mar brought up the following to me the other day...

Water shurikens are not so easily punished as they come out quick enough to be able to be used in retreating shorthops. Fully charged shurikens being unable to be stored is actually not as big a deal as you would initially think as it has amazing priority, can be followed with Greninja's great mobility for a grab/fair/usmash/footstool and is generally safe on shield as it's multi-hitting and drags the opponent along if it connects. This means they'll have to shield for the entirety of it or the lasting hitbox will get them. Additionally, it's great for edgeguarding by killing a double jump or popping the player off the ledge. If it misses, you're still safe. Charged Shifting shurikens bring the opponent right into you for the Greninja's best KO move, usmash.

Hydropump is dangerous in the right hands. You can screw over so many recoveries by having it act like Mario's FLUDD without the startup time or you can add a velocity to a recovery and have them launch in the air which places them in position for a fair or smash or other hydropump.

Substitute isn't that great but does have some niche uses. When the other player is at 80%, you can direct the substitute counter upwards for a uair/star KO and the distance it goes doesn't really put you in lethal danger.

Shadow sneak is eh. Things like instant downwards shadow sneak and running shadow sneak make it better but it's still not going to be useful much.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

@ Mario & Sonic Guy : Please move your post to the Character Competitive Impressions thread. Whether Greninja's specials are weak as a group doesn't have any bearing on a thread for guiding players to choose between them properly

Sorry about that. I only brought it up, because I've witnessed how easily countered Shadow Sneak is, and I could never get Substitute to work at all.

 

[Big O]

The way I approached the color scheme is green = standard, yellow = situational, red = bad



Neutral B

1. Giant Punch
2. Lightning Punch
3. Storm Punch

Side B

1. Headbutt
2. Jumping Headbutt
3. Stubborn Headbutt
Up B

1. Spinning Kong
2. Chopper Kong
3. Kong Cyclone
Down B

1. Ground Pound
2. Focused Slap
3. Hot Slap

Neutral B- Basically Neutral B1 is the only one with super armor and has extremely high damage/KO potential. Ending a stock at 80% or less is a very powerful thing in this game. Neutral B2 has some merit against characters who don't give you enough breathing room to charge the punch. Full hop B2 fully charges before you even land and is effectively a powered-up tilt that you can also do in the air. Neutral B3 can be useful if you are against someone with a bad recovery or characters that use freefall inducing specials often (troll those din's fire). It doesn't take as long to charge, but the punch is also the laggier than normal.

Side B- All three variants are okay moves that do massive shield damage. Side B1 is the fastest and least laggy. Side B2 is a little slower, a little laggier, and buries them for less time, but it jumps pretty fast and can be used to dodge moves or juggle traps. Side B3 is the slowest and laggiest of the three, but has super armor until a bit after it hits. They all have merits and choosing between them is mostly a matter of preference.

Up B- Choosing between the two viable choices mostly boils down to what you prefer. Up B1 is a multihitting ground approach tool and spotdodge/roll punisher. Up B3 has a bunch of aerial shenanigans like lagless landings, invincible Up B tricks, an insane vortex windbox that also induces hitstun (shieldstun too), and super armor frames while the windboxes are active. Keep in mind that on stages like FD, much of the appeal for using Up B3 is lost. Up B2 is useless. Worst recovery option despite focusing solely on recovery lol.

Down B- The strength of Down B1 lies in it's massively disjointed hitboxes and the ease at which it punishes roll/dodge spam. The more time they spend on the ground in footsie situations, the more compelling Down B1 becomes. Down B2 takes a different approach and instead gives you an extremely powerful ko move with very poor range, which makes it only good for hard reads. The only reason Down B 2 is not outright bad is that it hits like a truck. Down B3 drastically changes the function of the move by exchanging horizontal reach for the ability to hit people in the air. It goes high enough to hit people on BF platforms from below, still has good horizontal reach, and can also be a KO option in a pinch.

In terms of how they stack up in the air, aerial Down B2 is the strongest and does the most damage, but aerial Down B3 is the fastest and is surprisingly disjointed. Both are superior to Down B1 in the air which is the laggiest and least useful. Overall, choosing between them boils down to what you need for the MU (utility poke, hard read KO move, or anti-air zoning/traps).

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Neutral B
Shot Put: It's your only possible projectile. Slow, and the range is meh, but its strong and the arc gives it utility against airborne foes and in edge-guarding scenarios.

Ultimate Uppercut: An uppercut variation of the Giant Punch. The range is pathetic and the initial knockback is laughable, but the knockback growth is amazing. It can kill Samus at 95% on battlefield without vectoring on a full charge. If you like charging something or dont want a projectile, this is your move

Exploding Side Kick: I might change this to yellow, but I dont think Falcon Punch is that useful, and this is Falcon Punch in kick form.

Side B
Onslaught: I love this move. Yes, it gets caught up in some projectiles and isnt too safe on shield, but its great for approaching, does decent damage, and can kill if you use it airborne as a combo finisher. I never use a mii brawler without it.

Burning Dropkick: eh. It takes you pretty far and does good damage but the endlag is a dealbreaker for me. Also it doesnt have the utility of Onslaught.

Headache Maker: I wish there were 5 colors because this is objectively worse than the other 2 moves. Yellow because theres a neat trick on battlefield you can do with it, and I dont know if it can break shields or not. But the damage is less, the range is ****, endlag is real, and it doesnt even meteor.

Up B
Soaring Axe Kick: It looks cool, and does decent damage, and gets you probably the best recovery out of the three moves. It's also pretty fast. It is, however, the least powerful of the three.

Helicopter Kick: Dont ever try to recover with this. Yes, it deals the most damage (but not the most knockback) and the knockback is diagonal instead of vertical, which is a nice change if you're using Ultimate Uppercut and Onslaught. But damn, you're not going anywhere with this move!

Piston Punch: Has the same vertical range and damage as the axe kick, but it's multihit and can KO much easier. This is my go-to move. Main downside is it kills your horizontal momentum while recovering, but there's an answer to that later. Also, there's a trick in which you can use this move with a down or up throw to easily KO opponents (see the post directly below this for the link that makes this move vital for any Mii Brawler.

Down B
Head-on Assault: The burying effect is nice and the damage is decent but you should never use this move because of...

Feint Jump: This move is essential to Mii Brawler. All his other recovery options are ****, but this move gives him one of the best horizontal recoveries in the game. The trick is to hold forward during the jump animation and press B. You'll do a kick diagonally downward in the direction you were going with the jump, instead of back towards where you started. The kick is weak but thats not the point. This move is mandatory on any Mii Brawler.

Foot Flurry: It's like Falcon Kick, but it can apparently be easily Vectored out of. Damage is nice, yada yada, but it pales in comparison to Feint Jump's utility

 

[AvariceX]

Piston Punch: Has the same vertical range and damage as the axe kick, but it's multihit and can KO much easier. This is my go-to move. Main downside is it kills your horizontal momentum while recovering, but there's an answer to that later.

Piston Punch might deserve a purple highlight with the new "one inch punch" tech. http://smashboards.com/threads/the-one-inch-punch-a-mii-brawler-insta-ko-tech.376667/

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Piston Punch might deserve a purple highlight with the new "one inch punch" tech. http://smashboards.com/threads/the-one-inch-punch-a-mii-brawler-insta-ko-tech.376667/

huh. I didnt know that. I'll update accordingly

 

[popsofctown]

I've spent some time with DK. Storm Punch seems advanced, so I'm putting it red, it takes some thoughtfulness to get it to work better than the others (though against Zelda or whatever I'm sure it can).
Up b 3 feels like a purple to me, the aerial version seems strictly better and DK's other ground options seem to cover most of what upb1 would do for him on the ground. As a compromise Up b 3 will be the sole green.
The side Bs are interesting. Stubborn headbutt would be bananas down better than the other two if it was a variant of a move without the Mr. Saturn effect, but Super Armor slowness makes it much less likely that you'll break a shield with it since it can be grabbed or spotdodge on reaction. So it's a tough call to forfeit the cool betcha-gonna-shield option for a betcha-gonna-attack option. DK's reasonably good OoS options cover betcha-gonna-attack already (on the ground, only, though), but there are probably character matchups that create an exception to that.
I put DK's down B as green and hot slap as yellow, and I think I might have put focused slap red. DK already has normals for his hard reads, it's tough for me to believe he needs to give up his slap to get another method. Hot slap fulfills some of that same mission statement as downB 1 though and I think even a novice may be able to figure out which matchups the transition is worthwhile.

tl;dr Hot slap is purple because it's the only way to kill Ghastly in Smash Run.

 

[IvanQuote]

I got all of Link's moves:

Neutral:
Hero Bow: Longest range. Can work well in adding chip damage as people approach.

Silver Bow: Extremely powerful, but only when charged fully. There is a bit more lag at the end, but sniping into a crowd is bound to get good hits and KOs.

Piercing Arrow: It is quick and works well charged or not. Also has better function in teams for hitting more people, or going thru Luma and Duck Hunt's projectiles. Low range and damage hamper it in most situations tho.(Mark as yellow I guess)

Side:
Gale Boomerang: Strong projectile in its own right. The wind box can be a bit of a double edged sword tho.

Normal Boomerang: A bit stronger, but without the wind box. Not much difference.

Ripping Boomerang: Short, but multi hitting. Less potential of hitting from farther away, but makes approach very difficult.

Up:
Spin Attack: Has been buffed slightly and is effective at bomb jumping now that that's back in full gear.

Shocking Spin: No. Link needs all the recovery he can get and he has many better ways of killing things.

Whirling Leap: This is amazing. Has near unparalleled recovery, tho bomb jumping is a bit tougher, what with no hitbox.

Down:
Bomb: The most well rounded. It has the bomb jump recovery, bomb dropping capabilities, and is middle ground in terms of strength.

Giant Bomb: I'm tempted to make this yellow for bomb dropping, but the lack of bomb jumping plus slower draw hampers it.

Meteor Bomb: Bomb dropping isn't nearly as useful, and trying to bomb jump with this will KO you faster than you can say "jolt haymaker", but the meteor effect is something worth looking into. A bit difficult to get the hang of.

Give criticism please, as I am by no means a good Link user.

Edited in consideration to warriorman222's and popsofctown's comments.

 

[popsofctown]

Giant Bomb, afaik, is the only custom special with a joke in the description. I kinda wonder whether it's supposed to be the developer inside joke like Pichu of this game.

 

[Leonyx]

I think this thread is great because of how we're actively discussing custom movesets, but I'm a bit confused. Are the color choices meant to tell new players what skills are recommended for beginner play, or are the colors there to show how good each choice is relative to the others?

 

[popsofctown]

I think this thread is great because of how we're actively discussing custom movesets, but I'm a bit confused. Are the color choices meant to tell new players what skills are recommended for beginner play, or are the colors there to show how good each choice is relative to the others?

You should be confused, it's a mixture! The thinking is that an absolute beginner to smash in general will probably want to use the factory defaults (so doesn't benefit from this thread), while a total master of every nook and cranny of the character will know which custom moves he wants to use when from his own labbing (so doesn't benefit from this thread). The thread is designed for intermediate-expert smash players who are new to a character, to tell them what moves they should focus on first if they are thinking about secondarying the character. Advanced usage that happens after you've already spent your first ~30 hours with a character is excluded, although a move that might be a little bit tricky to use at first might be recommended for the sake of long term growth at the character.

Ideally, all nonred moves are useable at expert level play, but not all moves that are useable at expert level play are nonred. Avoiding the tragedy of spending your first dozen hours practicing a move that is irrelevant in competitive play is high priority.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I think this thread is great because of how we're actively discussing custom movesets, but I'm a bit confused. Are the color choices meant to tell new players what skills are recommended for beginner play, or are the colors there to show how good each choice is relative to the others?

A little of both it seems, but I'll let @ popsofctown deliver the final word since it's his topic.

'd

 

[Comorant]

Just a few personal opinions here.


Neutral B:
1 Water Shuriken // It's a rather quick projectile with decent range and utility, it has less end lag than the other options, and the charge shot has its uses too.

2 Stagnant Shuriken // Honestly I wouldn't dismiss it so quickly. You can follow up nicely, it puts pressure on shields, and you can give opponents a much more difficult time trying to recover from the ledge with it. It has enough merit to pull it out of Red I think.

3 Shifting Shuriken // The Shifting Shuriken's ability to either throw opponents upward or pull them directly toward you while still being a decent enough ranged projectile choice simply makes it fantastic.

If any Greninja mains have anything they can add on here or point out anything wrong, I'd appreciate it. Personally though I'm finding every one of his Neutral B options to have a pretty solid use.

I plan to go over Ness's Down B options later but I'm currently torn between both variations of Magnet and I'm planning to do a write up on PSI Vacuum later after some discoveries.

 

[Leonyx]

You should be confused, it's a mixture! The thinking is that an absolute beginner to smash in general will probably want to use the factory defaults (so doesn't benefit from this thread), while a total master of every nook and cranny of the character will know which custom moves he wants to use when from his own labbing (so doesn't benefit from this thread). The thread is designed for intermediate-expert smash players who are new to a character, to tell them what moves they should focus on first if they are thinking about secondarying the character. Advanced usage that happens after you've already spent your first ~30 hours with a character is excluded, although a move that might be a little bit tricky to use at first might be recommended for the sake of long term growth at the character.

Ideally, all nonred moves are useable at expert level play, but not all moves that are useable at expert level play are nonred. Avoiding the tragedy of spending your first dozen hours practicing a move that is irrelevant in competitive play is high priority.

Ah, gotcha. Thanks! Very awesome thread.

 

[popsofctown]

Third opinion on Stagnant shuriken? I don't play Greninja AT ALL and hate ties.

 

[warriorman222]

I got all of Link's moves:

Neutral:
Hero Bow: Longest range. Can work well in adding chip damage as people approach.

Silver Bow: Extremely powerful, but only when charged fully. The lack of range, lower speed, and uselessness when not charged detract from it. Can be punished easily.

Piercing Arrow: I like this one. It is quick and works well charged or not. Also has better function in teams for hitting more people. Somewhat low range tho.

Side:
Gale Boomerang: Strong projectile in its own right. The wind box can be a bit of a double edged sword tho.

Normal Boomerang: A bit weaker, but without the wind box. Not much difference.

Ripping Boomerang: Short, but multi hitting. Less potential of hitting from farther away, but makes approach very difficult.

Up:
Spin Attack: Has been buffed slightly and is effective at bomb jumping now that that's back in full gear.

Shocking Spin: No. Link needs all the recovery he can get and he has many better ways of killing things.

Whirling Leap: This is amazing. Has near unparalleled recovery, tho bomb jumping is a bit tougher, what with no hitbox.

Down:
Bomb: The most well rounded. It has the bomb jump recovery, bomb dropping capabilities, and is middle ground in terms of strength.

Giant Bomb: I'm tempted to make this yellow for bomb dropping, but the lack of bomb jumping plus slower draw hampers it.

Meteor Bomb: Bomb dropping isn't nearly as useful, and trying to bomb jump with this will KO you faster than you can say "jolt haymaker", but the meteor effect is something worth looking into.

Give criticism please, as I am by no means a good Link user.

Link is borderline Main for me, so i'll say me input:

For one, Power Bow is green, not red. Most Links, good or bad, fully charge their arrows. I have seen 50 Links, most of which used uncharged arrows less than 10% of the time, all of which under 20% (except that one idiot who didn' know how to charge). Piercing Arrow is red because consistency is great, but the lack of damage outside of teams hurts it badly. But we really need orange, Piercing Arrow is perfect for orange.

Boomerang is stronger, not weaker. Otherwise fine.

Ups are fine.

As for downs, when you have Whirling Leap, Meteor Bomb is definitely worth it, should be green with Bomb Yellow. Especially since you can gimp half the cast on a bad day with them. Giant Bomb is lol deseves black imo if it existed.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I strongly prefer default Water Shuriken on Greninja. Shifting is slower and has less range which is really unappealing to me, and I'm not seeing any true combos from it which is what it would need to be worthwhile versus the extreme versatility of default Water Shuriken. Stagnant is really interesting but I don't think worth giving up a real projectile; I'd say it's a yellow through and through.

I also strongly prefer side-3 on Greninja. I dunno what logic Greninja players are using now to think default Shadow Sneak is a useful move at all. The moving shadow is so hilariously obvious; your opponent would have to be flat out blind not to notice or ever be surprised by it, and while it's true it doesn't show up on some 3ds stages, it seems pretty obvious that won't be the case on the more graphically detailed Wii U version and that it will probably show up on every stage (also creates a bizarre asymmetry even between omega forms on 3ds; if this move didn't suck, that would be a major ruleset problem actually). While charging the move, Greninja's options are hyper limited, and Greninja is forced to release the charge of the incredibly slow and unsafe move after a while. What are you really going to do? Start charging, your opponent notices the shadow (being not blind), and you decide you don't want to do it... but you're stuck! You can't even grab ledges while charging ,and even wall clinging won't cancel the charge. The only useful thing about the move really is the fact that it can cancel landing lag, but side-3 also does this. Side 3 actually goes somewhere at a non-snail's pace, and the invincible teleport is useful for real surprise attacks.

I think default Hydro Pump is good and see the power of the ATs, but High-Capacity Pump's truly ridiculous recovery ability isn't something I'd count out.

Exploding Attack is just the best down-B. Greninja's counter is pretty bad among counters, but this move actually hits people with its unconditional huge hitbox and punishes movement and grabs which are hugely important thing to be able to deal with. There are probably match-ups in which default Substitute has use, but you have to have way better reads to ever even hit with it than you need to get use out of Exploding Attack. Yeah, the heavy counter is just awful and shouldn't be seriously considered.

So I'd say...



Neutral special:

Water Shuriken
Stagnant Shuriken
Shifting Shuriken

Side special:

Shadow Sneak
Shadow Strike
Shadow Dash

Up special:

Hydro Pump
High-Capacity Pump
Single-Shot Pump

Down special:

Substitute
Exploding Attack
Substitute Ambush

 

[popsofctown]

Disagreements abound.. inputs incorporared into update.

Meteor bomb stays yellow as long as bomb is considered nonred, because bomb seems the best thing to practice first.

I'm assuming advocates of shadow sneak don't charge it at all, essentially opting for a shorter fixed distance instead of a long one. It might be easier to get your opponent to whiff into your invincibility frames from a closer distance.

Multiple opinions on things are appreciated. I'm thinking some of the green yellow yellows in various parts of the list might deserve to be green yellow red given more study

 

[ZephyrZ]

I really recommend testing out moves and trying to find there uses before trying to rank them. If I had judged Impact Orbitars based on my first impressions, I would of thought they were worthless. It was only after testing and messing around with them when I realized what potential they had.

You can't learn as much in 2 minutes in training mode as you can in 60 minutes of experimenting and combat.

 

[Pazx]

I'd like to point out that Spinphony (jiggs up custom) is 100% useless in all situations, the only reason it could even be considered mildly viable is that the other options are almost as bad. OP listed it as yellow, I suggest changing it to red.

 

[Overmaster]

I'll give my thoughts on Sheik. Great collaboration thread. Should be stickied if only because it's a work of the community to compile these and rank them.

(I typed it all and then lost it. ;_; Now you get less write-up.)

Neutral
1 Needle Storm
2 Penetrating Needles - Considering one-on-one capability only. Ranked yellow basically just for the RosaLuma and possibly Duck Hunt match-up.
3 Paralyzing Needle - Very strong. Sheik doesn't have much variety in killing moves but at lethal percents this basically guarantees you get to use one of them. However, has a sizable wind-up and shorter range that removes defensive options. Liable to go purple once more follow-ups and tactics are known.

Side
1 Burst Grenade - Way too much start-up and end lag. Not even the ledgenade AT can make it very useful.
2 Gravity Grenade - Good! Much less lag. Comes out quick and yanks the enemy towards you on explosion. Can be used to set-up combos. Liable to go purple once more follow-ups are known.
3 Skimming Grenade - Also good! Bounces across the ground a great distance but does less damage the further it goes. Much less lag than Burst Nade. Gives Sheik her defensive options back if she decides to use Paralyzing Needles. Just generally a good defensive move or against other defensive play styles.

Up
1 Vanish - Crazy good recovery! Go vertical, horizontal or whatever. Enables Sheik to go crazy deep for gimps and also recover from extremely low. I SD with it too much.
2 Gale - Basically useless. Has no extra range, simply comes out faster. Why does it need to come out faster if we deal damage on teleport? No one approaches a Vanishing Sheik in midair. Just bad.
3 Abyss - Spiiiike! It spikes! Midair kill move! Haha, like a cruel prank by Sakurai. This thing covers basically no distance. Not only does it make ruin our ability to gimp deep, it's not even reasonable to try and catch people in this thing's path. It moves just barely another character's size in distance. You have to cross them with it perfectly in order to even get the spike. Bleh.

Down
1 Bouncing Fish
2 Jellyfish - You know, I'm going to rank both of these customs as yellow for now, simply because Bouncing Fish is more straightforward, but they are both almost equally good and when more is learned with them I am sure one of them will become green or even purple as the "go-to" move. Jellyfish goes higher, making it just a little more similar to ZSS's DownB (But not nearly as severe). Needs more testing for follow-ups when you bounce higher up.
3 Pisces - Goes flatter and further than any other option. When you connect, you go even farther! Has lots of potential too, but I'm not sure where... Might drop to red if we never find it!

 

[Ultinarok]

Neutral B:

Egg Lay: Opponents break out very quickly, Yoshi has better options to get opponents into the air, grab punishes shields just as well.
Egg Lay Launch: Good option for sending an opponent off the stage backward to set up bair or fair, but it can be telegraphed easily and the opponent can break out almost instantly, so its hard to follow up on.
Lick: Ridiculously good. Decently fast, lunges forward, allowing for approaches and aiding recovery, kills even heavies at 100% near the edge, edge-guarding tool, completely outclasses his forward smash for its range, speed and power.

Side B:

Egg Roll: Decent overall, best option.
Light Egg Roll: Very fast, does good damage and knockback and has a short duration, making it less punishable, but also allows for easy SDing. Only really safe if using High Jump.
Heavy Egg Roll: Unbelievably slow and punishable, and not even terribly strong to boot.

Up B:

Egg Toss: Solid projectile, incredible if used well, but not especially good for recovery.
High Jump: When you want a phenomenal recovery, but you lose a projectile. Not worth it to me, but Yoshi gets great survivability and Light Egg Roll becomes more spammable.
Timed Egg Toss: Useless unless the opponent happens to be where the egg ends, and even then it doesn't have enough power merits over standard toss. Fun casually, but not good otherwise.

Down B:

Yoshi Bomb: Balanced, solid move now.
Star Bomb: The splash damage makes it much safer, but it loses a lot of kill power and is best for getting out of juggles instead of killing.
Crushing Bomb: Long start up and no splash damage, so its very risky, punishable and easy to dodge, but when timed well, it is absurdly powerful, even stronger than Bowser Bomb. Great to use on opponents returning to the stage.

 

[Rakurai]

I guess I'll do my opinion on Wario.

Neutral B

Chomp: Bread and butter part of Wario's arsenal. It's a command grab that can be held to catch sidesteps, has very little start-up and ending lag, and can negate projectiles. Lacks any real flaws outside of its short range.

Inhaling Chomp: Adds a very powerful suction effect that draws people from a good distance. Wario can't bite his victims as quickly as with the standard version, but they usually break out after one or two hits anyways. The most noticeable downside is that you can't end the bite until the suction comes out, which makes it slightly more punishable then the normal bite, but it's not too terrible.

Garlic Breath: Extremely slow, plus the stun from it doesn't scale with damage and your opponent can mash it out of it before you can even follow-up if the move connects early. Not at all worth it.


Side B

Wario Bike: It's a recovery move, a powerful KO move if you can drop a wheelie on people, a throwing weapon, and a pseudo projectile if you jump off of it while it has momentum. Has 18 HP, meaning only charged projectiles and smash attacks will be destroying it.

Speeding Bike: Has higher speed and fixed knockback then the normal bike, but no real KO power and only 5 HP, along with the inconsequential downside of being unable to turnaround. It's much better for recovering, punishing whiffed attacks, getting people off the stage for attempts at gimps, and can even lead into combos at certain percents. For Warios who like gimping, this is the custom of choice.

Heavy Bike: Gains the ability to bury opponents and has a massive 40 HP, making it a viable shield from projectile weaponry (Diddy's accursed bananas especially), and a better throwing weapon. Moves slowly, which is a double edged sword, as while you can't use it as a punish, it can catch spot-dodgers and doesn't take any effort to keep it on the stage for use as a throwing weapon like the other bikes. Has no real KO power and is much worse as a recovery move due to it dropping like a rock and Wario leaping a lower height from it, but is still functional in that regard. Good if you like throwing the bike around.

Up B

Corkscrew: A very basic move. The damage and knockback aren't good enough to make it worth using as an offensive option very often, but it does its job as an added recovery move when the bike isn't good enough.

Widescrew: Sacrifices height and a little damage in exchange for much greater control over its trajectory. Better offensively then Corkscrew due to its completely horizontal launch trajectory and being able to reach opponents from angles Corkscrew can't.

Corkscrew Jump: Grants a bit of extra height in exchange for increased starting lag, no hitbox, and no control over your trajectory. The extra height isn't worth the added risk of being hit while trying to recover due to the lack of a protective hitbox and predictable trajectory.

Down B

Wario Waft: Takes ages to charge (One minute and 55 seconds, minus one second per item eaten), but once half charged, has an extremely deadly combo of speed and power. Fully charged is significantly stronger, but also noticeably slower and more predictable, so avoid using it unless you're far behind on stocks or percent and need to make a comeback. If you're confident with your aim and like getting early KOs, this is the preferred version.

Rose-scented Waft: Loses the massive KO power that makes the standard version attractive in exchange for a much faster charge time of one minute and the relatively useless perk of planting flowers when it connects. It's meant to build damage, but Wario is already a pro at doing that.

Quick Waft: Takes a mere 30 seconds to charge fully and gains two seconds of charge per item eaten. KO power is significantly lower then the normal Waft, but higher then the Rose-scented Waft and still much stronger then any of Wario's aerials, which makes it excellent for gimping or as a finisher when fully charged. Preferable if you aren't very precise with your wafts and/or like gimping.


Overall, I'd say Wario has a pretty good set of customs. None of them seem overly situational and have easily utilized perks to them.

 

[WwwWario]

Am I the only one who actually likes the Wizard's Assault? (Ganon's Down Special 3). It goes far, and it goes straight down in air (which can be useful). I don't know, why does it get so much hate? Sure it has longer start-up than the normal one, and it probably is a bit weaker, but it isn't useless?

 

[Thinkaman]

When I listed all of Jigglypuff's up-b options as red, I was being smug, cute, and factually accurate.

None of these moves should ever be used in a high-level 1v1 environment, in any matchup on any stage. Relative merits are meaningless in this light.

Edit:
Shulk's Mighty Air Slash might be relevant for the Jigglypuff matchup, where the other 2 have trouble connecting. (But all are otherwise nice anti-air options with kill potential...)

 

[Nocally]

(Second opinion b/c I'm bored):


3 Super Speed - Could easily break the game if not on a timer. Allows for a bull**** number of follow-ups. It's one of the best customs PERIOD.

That Pikachu needs to be able to capitalize more when his shock wave hits the opponent, or change the neutral B to something more damaging. (and more grabs plz)

all of Pikachus Neutral B's has their pros and cons.

 

[Doval]

Am I the only one who actually likes the Wizard's Assault? (Ganon's Down Special 3). It goes far, and it goes straight down in air (which can be useful). I don't know, why does it get so much hate? Sure it has longer start-up than the normal one, and it probably is a bit weaker, but it isn't useless?

Jumping over projectiles and low attacks is just too good.

 

[Thinkaman]

Am I the only one who actually likes the Wizard's Assault? (Ganon's Down Special 3). It goes far, and it goes straight down in air (which can be useful). I don't know, why does it get so much hate? Sure it has longer start-up than the normal one, and it probably is a bit weaker, but it isn't useless?

There's two separate issues here: Wizard's Assault is a bad move that is almost strictly worse than the default, and Wizard's Dropkick is incredible.


Why is it so bad? Well, for starters, it has more startup and does less damage. For a move that is already slow, this anti-trade catapults the move into awful territory. The advantages you get in exchange are "goes a tiny bit farther" and "doesn't slow down when hitting multiple targets." In a FFA, these advantages are helpful adn the loss of speed doesn't matter as much. But in a 1v1, it's all downsides with no gain.

In the air, going straight down is a bad thing. All characters can already attack below them, and all characters can attack above them. (Many u-smashes are very potent defensive moves!) However, being able to attack diagonally is very rare and valuable! This is why default Wizkick, even as slow as it is, is a potent aerial tool that Ganon depends on.

Aerial Wizard's assault also spikes easier, but this is actually a bad thing. Spiking on-stage opponents is poor in Smash 4 because it rarely kills. Off-stage, the move is virtually useless, at least in 1v1s.


Meanwhile, Wizard's Dropkick is the opposite. While also weaker (even a tad more), it's dramatically better in 1v1 combat. Ganon should take it in every matchup, it's absolutely incredible and single-handedly makes him a seriously viable 1v1 character.

 

[Ultinarok]

There's two separate issues here: Wizard's Assault is a bad move that is almost strictly worse than the default, and Wizard's Dropkick is incredible.


Why is it so bad? Well, for starters, it has more startup and does less damage. For a move that is already slow, this anti-trade catapults the move into awful territory. The advantages you get in exchange are "goes a tiny bit farther" and "doesn't slow down when hitting multiple targets." In a FFA, these advantages are helpful adn the loss of speed doesn't matter as much. But in a 1v1, it's all downsides with no gain.

In the air, going straight down is a bad thing. All characters can already attack below them, and all characters can attack above them. (Many u-smashes are very potent defensive moves!) However, being able to attack diagonally is very rare and valuable! This is why default Wizkick, even as slow as it is, is a potent aerial tool that Ganon depends on.

Aerial Wizard's assault also spikes easier, but this is actually a bad thing. Spiking on-stage opponents is poor in Smash 4 because it rarely kills. Off-stage, the move is virtually useless, at least in 1v1s.


Meanwhile, Wizard's Dropkick is the opposite. While also weaker (even a tad more), it's dramatically better in 1v1 combat. Ganon should take it in every matchup, it's absolutely incredible and single-handedly makes him a seriously viable 1v1 character.

And let's not forget that Dropkick aids his recovery significantly, is fantastic off-stage, and its initial hitbox hits opponents the opposite direction, killing even lower than Wizard's Foot off stage while also bringing Ganondorf safely back to the stage. Even if he misses the timing and doesn't connect the hitbox/entire move, it jetisons him over enough to avoid punishment. And in tandem with Dark Fists, its deadly on-stage as well as an evade-and-attack move. Even if Ganon drags himself off-stage with it, Dark Fists will make the enemy think twice about trying to gimp you since it kills literally everyone at like 90% if it connects. Dropkick is awesome.

 

[Meru.]

Default Toad
Grumpy Toad
Sleepy Toad

Default Bomber
Flying Bomber
Flower Bomber

Default Parasol
High Parasol
Light Parasol

Default Turnip
Heavy Turnip
Light Turnip

I'm not a fan of Toad at all, however, I feel Sleepy Toad's reward is superior to default Toad because of its reward. Default Toad is high risk/mediocre reward wheras Sleepy Toad is actually high rish/high reward since you can fully charge your Fsmash and kill them at super low percents. Pan is easier to knockback influence by holding down before getting hit (I have not tested this but I am assuming so) whereas Racket heavily depends on where you stand on stage. Either way both should kill pretty early although I feel pan will usually kill earlier. Even with maximal knockback influence opponents shouldn't survive at 100%, but again, this needs to be tested. If you don't like counters I guess Toad2 is available but that move is hideously slow, unsafe, has virtually no reward, so I cant find any application for it.

I like Fire Bomber a bit better than the default one because of stuff like Dair > Bomber. Surely the ending lag is pretty bad but you have literally no landing at all so in the end I still think its slightly safer than default Bomber. Because of the non-existent landing lag, this move is hilariously broken on stages with platforms like Battlefield. On top of that, it can still hit standing opponents at mid-range, which imo is the best range to use Bomber, but at the same time it can also function as an anti-aerial, albeit unsafe when whiffed. Still I don't think it's MUCH better than default Bomber so I may switch between the two. I'm still not a fan of Flower Bomber although I have become a bit more fond of it. It still hits decently at mid range (although barely) and it looks pretty fast. However, I dont think it's nearly as good as the other two Bombers.

As for Parasol, I think I really like that extra recovery, even if I lose its hitbox. I rarely ever use Parasol for attacking, other than sometimes waiting for them high at the top and trying to kill them by surprise by using Parasol, but even that rarely happens since this move is awfully punishable if you happen to miss. I'd rather be able to safely get back to stage from any angle, which is going to help getting back to the stage a lot after off-stage gimp and edgeguard attempts. She also goes up REALLY fast, much faster than other recoveries that lack a hitbox like Rosalina's or The Villager's, so I feel it's going to be very hard to hit and gimp her out of it. Edgehogging is also out, so there's no need to worry about that either. I don't really see any use for the Light Parasol since it does basically the same thing as High Parasol does, which is enhancing your recovery, except it's much slower, more gimpable and harder to pull off.

Lastly, I'm a bit lost on her turnips. I dislike the Heavy Turnip and I think it's only good for turnip cancel stuff. Otherwise I feel this one is inferior to her other version, especially since plucking takes ages and you don't always have a ledge to cancel it off. Her throwing range is also shortened, limiting its use. This leaves the Light Turnip as a possible alternative. I don't really mind opponents being able to catch it easily since there is not much they can do with a turnip (not everybody can perform aerials while holding a turnip) and they also can't catch turnips as well as Peach does (with floating Nairs for example). However, I don't really like the abysmal damage and the non-existent hitstun/shieldstun. Other than I like it a lot though. It feels pretty strong for both pressuring and it makes it somewhat harder to approach Peach. However, I'm not sure if I like it better than the default ones.

Something I posted a while back. I think default Parasol is pretty good though since I'm using it a bit more often now. Her default recovery is already good enough too, so I'm not very sure anymore.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Neutral
Hero's Bow - Regular Arrows are pretty cool thanks to Bomb Lag Canceling. Allows for short hop slightly charged arrow into bomb lag cancel camping. Uncharged arrows travel far enough to be useful.
Fire Arrow- While I'm still testing this move, the more I test, the better I think it is. It leaves flaming arrow hitboxes that can make approaching Toon Link a bit more difficult than usual. It also can be used for landing traps and interestingly enough, if someone lands in one of them and you're fast enough, it can lead into a fair or upair for the kill.
Piercing Arrow- The more I use and experiment with this one, the more I think it's only use is vs Duck Hunt and Rosalina. Faster arrows that pierce through Luma and Duck Hunt Cans but deal 1% damage only uncharged and have to be charged a bit in order to do more than 2%. Not very good at disrupting approaches because it has very poor hitstun.

Side
Boomerang- Regular boomerang is the preferred option because it comes out fast enough to be a threat and is good when returning too.
Floating Boomerang- Needs some more research. I don't like the fact that when coming out it doesn't cause much hitstun. It also doesn't really have a hitbox when returning after hitting something though that would've been kind of way too difficult to approach considering it comes back very slow. Returning boomerang is the best in this one, dealing 4% and having just enough hitstun to connect with an aerial if done fast enough. Its still a decent option for sure.
High-Speed Boomerang- Lags a bit more when throwing the boomerang and also travels less distance but also goes through things, including shield. Is better at handling Rosalina and Duck Hunt because of the piercing effect and the fact that it goes through shields and still comes back makes it a bit annoying to play against. Still feel regular boomerang is overall better though.

Up
Spin Attack- I dont think it can be shielded in between hits anymore when grounded so that's nice. Still decent at recovery even though it's been nerfed.
Sliding Spin Attack- This move could've been good in the ground if the grounded version didn't take a million years to come out and actually killed or something. Might've been a decent out of shield option. As a recovery it is awful, giving very little vertical distance. Don't use unless you're crazy.
Flying Spin Attack- The rising slash part of the move in the air has super armor, making it very useful vs characters like Little mac who can hit TL with downsmash before he grabs the ledge with upb. Still subpar out of shield and it doesn't really have much killing power even though it's stronger than the regular one.

Down
Bomb- Bomb is as good as always. Regular bombs are too essential to Toon Link. Allows you a ton of mixups, allows TL to camp, to setup into kills, it allows all sorts of things. It even makes aerials safer to throw out because of Bomb Lag canceling. They can even be used to interrupt combos with Bomb Hitstun Cancel. They even got buffed by not hitting you anymore if you hit someone close to you. Bombs <3
Time Bomb- It's kind of like a gimping bomb tbh. It doesn't detonate on contact anymore and is on a 3 second timer. When it explodes, it has huge knockback even at low %s. If it didn't do only 1% they would be so much more viable...I can see them being good vs little mac maybe but I still wouldn't really choose them over the regular one unless they make it that much easier to get mac offstage, which I doubt.
Short-Fuse Bomb- They're awkward to use and don't give you any option but to throw them immediately or else you explode yourself since they're on a 1 second timer. They do a ton of damage (12%) and are scary because they can kill. I've been using it vs Rosalina because it gets rid of Luma quicker and since it's on a fast timer, Gravitational Pull backfires on Rosalina if she tries it.

 

[popsofctown]

When I listed all of Jigglypuff's up-b options as red, I was being smug, cute, and factually accurate.

None of these moves should ever be used in a high-level 1v1 environment, in any matchup on any stage. Relative merits are meaningless in this light.

If all three of Jigglypuffs moves should not be used in a 1v1 environment, then the one that should be set should be the on that is the least harmful when accidentally input. I'd like to know what that is, put it in purple, and put the others in red.

 

[Thinkaman]

Hyper Voice is the least harmful. Spinphony lasts longer, and Sing cannot hit aerial opponents.

 

[warriorman222]

If all three of Jigglypuffs moves should not be used in a 1v1 environment, then the one that should be set should be the on that is the least harmful when accidentally input. I'd like to know what that is, put it in purple, and put the others in red.

Hyper voice 4 purple. Spinphony is long and stupid, a liability in every matchup in the universe. Sing doesn't do anything to air opponents, and at least Hyper Voice can do a little damage.

'd

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Hyper Voice is the least harmful. Spinphony lasts longer, and Sing cannot hit aerial opponents.

Does Sing lead into Rest setups at least or is that mashable?