Suggested Custom Specials for every character

popsofctown

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
2,505
Location
Alabama
#1
IF YOU MAIN A CHARACTER, DON'T PICK YOUR CUSTOMS BASED ON A SILLY THREAD.
This thread is only intended for trying out secondaries, where you are spending less time with the character and would want cliff-notes It is even deliberately incorrect for expert level play of several characters, so if you want to be a true expert of a character, study all 12 customs yourself.


Purple will mean that a move is strongly recommended and probably renders the others unusable by its existence. It's an SS tier move. Never say never, but never don't use it.

Green means a move is useful in most stages, matchups, and playstyles. It's somehow more of a default go-to than a yellow. I might leave some moves that are just really easy when you're starting out with the character as green too, even though an expert in the character might use the yellows just as much or more.
Yellow means a move is useful in some stages, matchups, and playstyles.Red means you shouldn't really use the move. Never say never but never use this move. Some red moves see some use, but only from experts in the character with specific matchup knowledge.
There's a directory to posts about the custom specials preference reasoning of various characters at the bottom of this post. This often contains info on how mains of a character utilize red moves in certain matchups or posts from users that have a minority disagreement on my listing.

:4bowserjr:
:4bowser:
Neutral
1 Fire Breath
2 Fire Shot
3 Fire Roar

Side
1 Flying Slam
2 Dashing Slam
3 Koopa Klaw


Up
1 Whirling Fortress
2 Flying Fortress
3 Sliding Fortress


Down
1 Bowser Bomb
2 Turbulent Bomb
3 Slip Bomb
:4falcon:
:4charizard:
:4charizard::GCB:
  1. FLAMETHROWER
  2. FIRE FANG
  3. FIREBALL CANNON
:4charizard::GCR::GCB:
  1. FLARE BLITZ
  2. BLAST BURN
  3. DRAGON RUSH
:4charizard::GCU::GCB:
  1. FLY
  2. RISING CYCLONE
  3. FLY HIGH
:4charizard::GCD::GCB:
  1. ROCK SMASH
  2. SINKING SKULL
  3. ROCK HURL
[/COLOR]
:4darkpit:
Neutral
1 Silver Bow
2 Piercing Bow
3 Guiding Bow
Side
1 Electroshock Arm[/COLOR]
2 Electrocut Arm
3 Quickshock Arm
Up
1 Power of Flight[/COLOR]
2 Striking Flight
3 Breezy Flight
Down
1 Guardian Orbitars[/COLOR]
2 Impact Orbitars
3 Amplifying Orbitars

[/COLOR][/COLOR]
:4dedede:
Neutral special:
Inhale
Dedede Storm
Taste Test

Side special:
Gordo Throw
Topspin Gordo
Bouncing Gordo

Up special:

Super Dedede Jump
Rising Dedede

Quick Dedede Jump

Down special:
Jet Hammer
Armoured Jet Hammer
Dash Jet Hammer
:4diddy:
:4dk:
Neutral B
1. Giant Punch
2. Lightning Punch

3. Storm Punch
Side B
1. Headbutt
2. Jumping Headbutt
3. Stubborn Headbutt


Up B
1. Spinning Kong
2. Chopper Kong
3. Kong Cyclone
Down B
1. Ground Pound
2. Focused Slap
3. Hot Slap

[/COLOR]
:4drmario:
Neutral B
1. Megavitamins
2. Fast Capsule[/COLOR]
3. Mega Capsule
Side B
1. Super Sheet[/COLOR]
2. Shocking Sheet
3. Breezy Sheet

Up B
1. Super Jump Punch
2. Super Jump

3. Ol' One Two

Down B
1. Dr. Tornado
2. Soaring Tornado

3. Clothesline Tornado[/COLOR]
[/COLOR][/COLOR]
:4duckhunt:
:4falco:
:4fox:
:4ganondorf:
Neutral
1 Warlock Punch [/COLOR]
2 Warlock Blade
3 Warlock Thrust

Side
1 Flame Choke
2 Flame Wave

3 Flame Chain
Up
1 Dark Dive[/COLOR]
2 Dark Fists
3 Dark Vault

Down
1 Wizard's Foot

2 Wizard's Dropkick
3 Wizard's Assault
[/COLOR][/COLOR]
:4gaw:
:4greninja:
Neutral Special:
1 Water Shuriken
2 Stagnant Shuriken

3 Shifting Shuriken[/COLOR]
Side Special:
1 Shadow Sneak
2 Shadow Strike
3 Shadow Dash


Up Special:
1 Hydro Pump
2 High-Capacity Pump

3 Single-Shot Pump[/COLOR]
Down Special:
1 Substitute
2 Exploding Attack[/COLOR]
3 Substitute Ambush
[/COLOR][/COLOR]
:4myfriends:
Neutral
2 Tempest[/COLOR]
3 Furious Eruption
1 Eruption

Side
2 Close Combat

1 Quick Draw
3 Unyielding Blade
Up
2 Aether Drive[/COLOR]
1 Aether
3 Aether Wave

Down
2 Paralyzing Counter

1 Counter
3 Smash Counter

[/COLOR]
:4jigglypuff:
Neutral B:
1 Rollout[/COLOR]
2 Relentless Rollout
3 Raging Rollout
Side B:
1 Pound
2 Sideways Pound
3 Pound Blitz


Up B:
1 Sing[/COLOR]
2 Hyper Voice
3 Spinphony
Down B:
1 Rest[/COLOR]
2 Leaping Rest
3 Wakie Wakie


[/COLOR]
:4kirby:
Up B
1 Final Cutter[/COLOR]
2 Wave Cutter
3 Upper Cutter

Neutral B
1 Inhale[/COLOR]
2 Ice Breath
3 Jumping Inhale

Side Special
1 Hammer Flip [/COLOR]
2 Hammer Bash
3 Giant Hammer
Down Special
1 Stone
2 Grounding Stone

3 Meteor stone[/COLOR]
[/COLOR][/COLOR]
:4littlemac:
Standard Special:
1 Straight Lunge
2 Flaming Straight Lunge[/COLOR]
3 Stunning Straight Lunge

Side Special:

1 Jolt Haymaker
2 Grounding Blow
3 Guard Breaker

Up Special
1 Rising Uppercut
2 Tornado Uppercut
3 Rising Smash


Down Special
1 Slip Counter
2 Compact Counter
3 Dash Counter
[/COLOR][/COLOR]
:4link:
Neutral:
1 Hero Bow
2 Silver Bow[/COLOR]
3 Piercing Arrow
Side:
1 Gale Boomerang
2 Normal Boomerang[/COLOR]
3 Ripping Boomerang

Up:
1 Spin Attack
2 Shocking Spin

3 Whirling Leap
Down:
1 Bomb[/COLOR]
2 Giant Bomb
3 Meteor Bomb
[/COLOR]
:4lucario:
Neutral B:
1 Aura Sphere
2 Snaring Aura Sphere[/COLOR]
3 Piercing Aura Sphere
Side B:
1 Force Palm[/COLOR]
2 Advancing Force Palm
3 Long Distance Force Palm

Up B:
1 Extreme Speed

2 Ride the Wind
3 Extreme Speed Attack
Down B:
1 Double Team[/COLOR]
2 Glancing Counter
3 Stunning Double Team
[/COLOR]
:4lucina:
Neutral
3 Dashing Assault[/COLOR]
1 Shield Breaker
2 Storm Thrust
Side
1 Dancing Blade[/COLOR]
2 Effortless Blade
3 Heavy Blade

Up
3 Dolphin Jump[/COLOR]
1 Dolphin Slash
2 Crescent Slash


Down
1 Counter
3 Iai Counter

2 Easy Counter[/COLOR]
[/COLOR][/COLOR]
:4luigi:
:4mario:
Neutral
1 Fireball
2 Fast Fireball[/COLOR]
3 Big Fireball

Side
2 Gusty Cape
3 Shocking Cape

1 Cape[/COLOR]
Up
1 Super Jump Punch[/COLOR]
2 High Jump Punch
3 Explosive Punch

Down
1 FLUDD

3 High Pressure FLUDD
2 Scalding FLUDD

[/COLOR][/COLOR]
:4marth:
Neutral
3 Dashing Assault[/COLOR]
1 Shield Breaker
2 Storm Thrust

Side
1 Dancing Blade[/COLOR]
2 Effortless Blade
3 Heavy Blade

Up
3 Dolphin Jump[/COLOR]
1 Dolphin Slash
2 Crescent Slash


Down
1 Counter
3 Iai Counter

2 Easy Counter[/COLOR]

[/COLOR][/COLOR]
:4megaman:
Neutral B:
1. Metal Blade
2. Hyper Bomb
3. Shadow Blade


Side B:
1. Crash Bomber
2. Danger Wrap
3. Ice Slasher


Up B:
1. Rush Coil[/COLOR]
2. Tornado Hold
3. Beat
Down B:
1. Plant Barrier
2. Leaf Shield
3. Skull Barrier
[/COLOR][/COLOR]
:4metaknight:
:4miibrawl:
Neutral B
1 Shot Put
2 Ultimate Uppercut

3 Exploding Side Kick[/COLOR]
Side B
1 Onslaught[/COLOR]
2 Burning Dropkick
3 Headache Maker

Up B
1 Soaring Axe Kick[/COLOR]
2 Helicopter Kick
3 Piston Punch
Down B
1 Head-on Assault[/COLOR]
2 Feint Jump3 Foot Flurry
[/COLOR][/COLOR]
:4miigun:
:4miisword:
:4ness:
Neutral:
1 PK Flash[/COLOR]
2 Rising PK Flash
3 PK Freeze

Side:
1 PK Fire
2 PK Bonfire[/COLOR]
3 PK Fire Burst

Up:
1 PK Thunder

2 Lasting PK Thunder
3 Rolling PK Thunder

Down:
1 PSI Magnet [/COLOR]
2 PSI Vacuum
3 Forward PSI Magnet
[/COLOR][/COLOR]
:4olimar:
:4palutena:
Neutral Special
1 Auto-Reticle
2 Explosive Flame

3 Heavenly Light[/COLOR]
Side Special
1 Reflect Barrier
2 Super Speed[/COLOR]
3 Angelic Missile
Up Special
1 Warp
2 Jump Glide
3 Rocket Jump


Down Special
1 Counter
2 Lightweight[/COLOR]
3 Celestial Fireworks
[/COLOR]
:4pacman:
:4peach:
:4pikachu:
:4pikachu::GCB:
  1. THUNDER JOLT
  2. THUNDER WAVE
  3. THUNDER SHOCK
:4pikachu::GCR::GCB:
  1. SKULL BASH
  2. SHOCKING SKULL BASH
  3. HEAVY SKULL BASH
:4pikachu::GCU::GCB:
  1. QUICK ATTACK
  2. METEOR QUICK ATTACK
  3. QUICK FEET
:4pikachu::GCD::GCB:
  1. THUNDER
  2. THUNDER BURST
  3. DISTANT THUNDER
[/COLOR]

:4pit:
Neutral
1 Palutena Bow
2 Piercing Bow[/COLOR]
3 Guiding Bow
Side
1 Upperdash Arm[/COLOR]
2 Interception Arm
3 Quickdash Arm
Up
1 Power of Flight[/COLOR]
2 Striking Flight
3 Breezy Flight
Down
1 Guardian Orbitars[/COLOR]
2 Impact Orbitars
3 Amplifying Orbitars

[/COLOR]
:4rob:
Neutral
1 Robo Beam[/COLOR]
2 Wide-Angle Beam
3 Infinite Robo Beam


Side
1 Arm Rotor
2 Reflector Arm

3 Backward Arm Rotor

Up
1 Robo Burner[/COLOR]
2 Robo Rocket
3 High-Speed Burner


Down
1 Gyro

2 Fire Gyro
3 Slip Gyro

[/COLOR]
:4robinm:
Neutral:
2 Thunder+[/COLOR]
3 Speed Thunder
1 Thunder: A meh middle ground.

Side:
1 Arcfire Most useful overall, suitable for most situations.
3 Fire Wall Faster, good as a quick zoning tool. Also can impact the ground pretty far below Robin.

2 Arcfire+: Slow, unimpressive knockback, overall booty.[/COLOR]
Up:
1 Elwind
2 Gliding Elwind

3 Soaring Elwind[/COLOR]
Down:
1 Nosferatu [/COLOR]
3 Goetia
2 Distant Nosferatu
[/COLOR][/COLOR]
:rosalina:
Neutral
2 Luma Warp[/COLOR]
1 Luma Shot
3 Strong Luma Shot


Side
3 Speedy Star Bit[/COLOR]
1 Star Bits
2 Floaty Star Bit

Up
3 Launch Star Attack[/COLOR]
1 Launch Star
2 Launch Star Plus


Down
1 Gravitational Pull
3 Guardian Luma

2 Catch and Release[/COLOR]

[/COLOR][/COLOR]
:4samus:
:4sheik:
Neutral
1 Needle Storm[/COLOR]
2 Penetrating Needles
3 Paralyzing Needle

Side
1 Burst Grenade

2 Gravity Grenade
3 Skimming Grenade

Up
1 Vanish

2 Gale
3 Abyss
Down
1 Bouncing Fish[/COLOR]
2 Jellyfish
3 Pisces

[/COLOR]
:4shulk:
Neutral
1 Monado Arts[/COLOR]
2 Decisive Monado Arts
3 Hyper Monado Arts


Side
1 Back Slash

2 Back Slash Leap
3 Back Slash Charge

Up
1 Air Slash
2 Advancing Air Slash

3 Mighty Air Slash[/COLOR]
Down
1 Vision
2 Dash Vision[/COLOR]
3 Power Vision
[/COLOR][/COLOR]
:4sonic:
:4tlink:
:4villager:
Neutral
1 Pocket[/COLOR]
2 Garden
3 Pocket Plus

Side
1 Lloid Rocket
2 Pushy Lloid

3 Rising Lloid[/COLOR]
Up[
2 Extreme Balloon Trip
1 Balloon Trip
3 Balloon Jump
Down
2 Counter Timber
1 Timber
3 Super Timber
[/COLOR][/COLOR]
:4wario:
:4wiifit:
Neutral B:
1 Sun Salutation
2 Concentrated Sun Salutation[/COLOR]
3 Sweeping Sun Salutation

Side B:
1 Header
2 Huge Header
3 Weighted Header


Up B:
1 Super Hoop

2 Jumbo Hoop
3 Hoop Hurricane
Down B:
1 Deep Breathing[/COLOR]
2 Volatile Breathing
3 Steady Breathing
[/COLOR]
:4yoshi:
Neutral B:
1 Egg Lay
2 Egg Lay Launch
3 Lick
Side B:
1 Egg Roll
2 Light Egg Roll.
3 Heavy Egg Roll

Up B:
1 Egg Toss
2 High Jump.
3 Timed Egg Toss

Down B:
1 Yoshi Bomb
2 Star Bomb
3 Crushing Bomb

[/COLOR]
:4zelda:
:4zss:
Neutral B:
1 Paralyzer
2 Blast Shot
3 Electromagnetic Net
Side B:
1 Plasma Whip
2 Plasma Dash

3 Whip Lash
Up B:
1 Boost Kick
2 Impact Kick
3 Lateral Kick
Down B:
1 Flip Jump
2 Shooting Star Flip Kick
3 Low Flip

Directory of Discussion
:4bowser:
:4bowserjr:O
:4falcon:
:4charizard:O
:4darkpit:O
:4dedede:
:4diddy:
:4dk:O
:4drmario:O
:4duckhunt:
:4falco:
:4fox:
:4ganondorf:O
:4gaw:O
:4greninja:O OO
:4myfriends:O
:4jigglypuff:
:4kirby:O O
:4littlemac:
:4link: OO
:4lucario:O
:4lucina:
:4luigi:
:4mario:O
:4marth:
:4megaman:O O
:4metaknight:
:4miibrawl:O
:4miigun:
:4miisword:
:4ness:O
:4olimar:
:4palutena:O
:4pacman:
:4peach:
:4pikachu:O
:4pit:
:4rob:O
:4robinm:O
:rosalina:O
:4samus:
:4sheik:
:4shulk:O O
:4sonic:
:4tlink:
:4villager:O
:4wario:
:4wiifit:
:4yoshi:
:4zelda:
:4zss:O
 
Last edited:
Joined
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$50.00 / $??.??
#2
Yoshi's Up B Custom that actually gives you a recovery (I.E. a higher jump for the Egg Toss) does wonders, but kinda situational. :p
 

ParanoidDrone

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
4,229
Location
Baton Rouge, LA
#4
You already have Rosalina listed but second opinions never hurt.

:rosalina:
Neutral:
Luma Warp: The sheer speed makes it worthwhile. Because Luma teleports it also can get around projectiles if timed right, which Luma Shot can otherwise be stopped by. You can't vary the distance though, so it's less flexible there.
Luma Shot: Its simultaneously more and less flexible than Luma Warp. It's a powerful move on its own and can kill when charged, but you can't throw it out for a surprise poke into whatever combo. Its charging ability does allow for mixups regarding where you place Luma. I would leave it green since I think it has valid tradeoffs with Luma Warp but that's apparently not a thing so yellow it is.
Power Luma Shot: I want to like this move. I really do. A powerful lingering hitbox like that is something a lot of characters would probably kill for. But it completely ties up Luma so...yeah. I'm not sure if it's literally worthless, but it's got some explaining to do. </I Love Lucy>

Side:
Shooting Star Bit: Rosalina (well, Luma) gets Falco's laser. Enough said. It would be purple but I'm not convinced Floaty Star Bit is useless so it gets a green.
Floaty Star Bit: I'm of the opinion that, although Shooting Star Bit is superior because range and zoning, Floaty Star Bit still has room for niche use if long range zoning just isn't your thing. Unlike Power Luma Shot, it doesn't tie up Luma for days and serves the same purpose of "lingering hitbox that gives the opponent something to avoid for the next few seconds." I'm personally fond of it despite the lesser utility, although I'll use Shooting Star Bit for a serious match.
Star Bits: Next to Floaty Star Bit, I'll take the latter every time. As far as I can tell this is only good for having Luma do damage from outside its physical range, but Shooting Star Bit does that a million times better. Unless the shotgun spread is actually good for something?

Up:
Launch Star: IMO the best of Rosalina's up specials due to the flexibility. It has no hitbox but it ties with Launch Star Plus for distance plus it can be angled. A full horizontal angle lets you fly the entire length of Final Destination.
Launch Star Attack: Cuts the distance pretty harshly, and the finisher at the end kills Rosalina's momentum completely. It's booty for recovery compared to her other options, but it's her only damaging up special so by default it's not worthless.
Launch Star Plus: The only thing this has over Launch Star is that it launches Rosalina faster. It gets no extra distance and you can't angle it. That said, the speed could help against gimp-heavy characters. It just can't be used for horizontal recovery, making her path more predictable.

Down:
Gravitational Pull: Best overall option, lets her completely ignore anything not nailed down to the stage or another character. But worthless against characters without projectiles. If I don't know what character I'm fighting against, I'll default to this.
Guardian Luma: Has a weird property where using it while jumping will give her extra height, similar to Lucas's Zap Jump in Brawl. Also still pulls in items. (Turnips count as items.)
Catch & Release: Honestly I'm not sure if this or Guardian Luma is better since I'm pretty sure they both only exist to give Rosalina a not-useless down special against someone without a projectile. The windbox can make incoming attacks whiff sometimes, but the hitbox can be shielded or countered so...yeah.

EDIT: Also you have a typo in your OP. Floaty Star Bit is Side 2 and Shooting Star Bit is Side 3.
 
Last edited:

Jaxas

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 12, 2014
Messages
1,647
Location
Salem, OR, US
NNID
Jaxas7
#5
Not 100% positive about this, but from what I've seen:

:4lucario:
Neutral B:
- Aura Sphere
- Snaring Aura Sphere

- Piercing Aura Sphere

Side B:
- Force Palm
- Advancing Force Palm
- Long Distance Force Palm

Up B:
- Extreme Speed
- Ride the Wind
- Extreme Speed Attack


Down B:
- Double Team
- Glancing Counter
- Stunning Double Team


:4zss:
Neutral B:
- Paralyzer
- Blast Shot
- Electromagnetic Net


Side B: (Mostly guessing here; this part is especially iffy)
- Plasma Whip
- Plasma Dash
- Whip Lash

Up B: (also very iffy)
- Boost Kick
- Impact Kick
- Lateral Kick


Down B:
- Flip Jump
- Shooting Star Flip Kick (Unsure if it should be used rarely or not at all)
- Low Flip
 

popsofctown

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
2,505
Location
Alabama
#6
The way I'm using the colors, there can't be two greens, only two yellows. Green means it's a frontrunner amongst the nonred moves. There can't be two frontrunners.
If all moves but one are red, the remainder has to be purple, even if you're not enthusiastic about it. You'll use it all the time!

Shooting Star Flip Kick will be red, and Floaty Star Bit will remain red, as a reflection of this thread's purpose to serve the casual secondary pick-up sort of player that won't be investigating highly niche uses. Moves like that are worth discussing in a character specific forum but if it's something you explore once you're already deeply committed to the character, it's not something someone needing a quick reference should be keeping on the radar.
(I might recolor some of Rosa's others later).
 

ParanoidDrone

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
4,229
Location
Baton Rouge, LA
#7
The way I'm using the colors, there can't be two greens, only two yellows. Green means it's a frontrunner amongst the nonred moves. There can't be two frontrunners.
If all moves but one are red, the remainder has to be purple, even if you're not enthusiastic about it. You'll use it all the time!

Shooting Star Flip Kick will be red, and Floaty Star Bit will remain red, as a reflection of this thread's purpose to serve the casual secondary pick-up sort of player that won't be investigating highly niche uses. Moves like that are worth discussing in a character specific forum but if it's something you explore once you're already deeply committed to the character, it's not something someone needing a quick reference should be keeping on the radar.
(I might recolor some of Rosa's others later).
Then I'd like to respectfully submit that there should be a color to represent "this move is one of multiple viable options." Because the way you have it now the only difference between purple and green seems to be just how superior it is to everything else. Unless you intended for equally useful moves to all be yellow?

Also based on your more detailed explanation I may modify my chosen colors for Rosalina's moves.
 
Last edited:

popsofctown

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
2,505
Location
Alabama
#8
Then I'd like to respectfully submit that there should be a color to represent "this move is one of multiple viable options." Because the way you have it now the only difference between purple and green seems to be just how superior it is to everything else. Unless you intended for equally useful moves to all be yellow?
Purple means all other moves are useless
Green means the move is very useful and there is at least one other useful move, but the green move feels a head and shoulder ahead of that one.
Yellow means the move is sometimes useful
 

ChronoPenguin

Smash Champion
Joined
May 26, 2007
Messages
2,971
Location
Brampton Ontario, Canada
3DS FC
4253-4494-4458
#9
My opinion on :4kirby:

Up B:
Final Cutter - No point IMO, Wave Cutter does its job better
Wave Cutter - Fairly substantial ranged damage but it's telegraphed as hell, but can't argue with dmg.
Upper Cutter - Really practical recovery


Neutral B
Inhale - Dont see enough over Jumping Inhale
Ice Breath - For when the copy abilities really suck.
Jumping Inhale

Side Special
Hammer Flip - I simply assume there is some kind of benefit to this
Hammer Bash - Better recovery, reliable kill, less laggy than alternatives...yeah.
Giant Hammer

Down Special
Stone
Grounding Stone

Meteor stone - Simply too laggy, if you want them down so bad use your D-air.
 
Last edited:

Comorant

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 11, 2014
Messages
69
#10
I'm rather curious why the Gusty Cape is red. The damage decrease is pretty insiginificant, it seems to do as much damage as the normal Cape when reflecting, it stalls in the air longer, and I can't quite find any other downsides. I'm tempted to say there's a tad more end lag but I don't trust my eyes well enough because the difference seems tiny.
 

Zachmac

Delusional Zard Loyalist
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#11
Woah woah woah, why is Advancing Force Palm red? It moves extremely quickly and is literally impossible to block. The only way to avoid it is to dodge, but it's start up lag isn't long at all, so it can be pretty difficult to do that.

Yeah, sure, it has much less kill power, but it's an incredibly good punish and its solid for wracking up damage. I'd give it a green, easily.
 

ParanoidDrone

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
4,229
Location
Baton Rouge, LA
#12
Purple means all other moves are useless
Green means the move is very useful and there is at least one other useful move, but the green move feels a head and shoulder ahead of that one.
Yellow means the move is sometimes useful
In that case I'll edit my earlier post.

Also in a convenient bit of timing I just had an enlightening discussion on Robin's customs. I'm not exactly a Robin main but I think I have a good handle on his specials between that and my own experimenting.

:4robinm::4robinf:
Neutral:
Thunder+: Power is usually worth the extra charge time and tome consumption. Thoron kills.
Speed Thunder: Better against fast rushdown types like Sheik that won't give you enough breathing room to charge Thunder+. Also better for taking advantage of a fun property where charging Thoron gives Robin his double jump back because reasons.
Thunder: A meh middle ground.

Side:
Arcfire: Most useful overall, suitable for most situations.
Fire Wall: Faster, good as a quick zoning tool. Also can impact the ground pretty far below Robin.
Arcfire+: Slow, unimpressive knockback, overall booty.

Up:
Elwind: Really, it's a tossup between this and Gliding Elwind, it seems to be down to personal taste. This one is better for vertical recovery.
Gliding Elwind: Less vertical distance but good horizontal. Can be used onstage for a surprise attack when B-Reversed. Again, this vs. Elwind seems to be personal preference, but Gliding Elwind makes Robin feel a bit faster.
Soaring Elwind: Looks like it should go higher, but not really from what I can tell. Also can't drift sideways until after the move is done. Strictly inferior to Elwind IMO unless you really like the "stall then jump" sort of recoveries.

Down:
Nosferatu: Heals the most of the 3.
Goetia: Large range and a windbox to boot, no healing. Good if you don't care about the healing. Really slow though.
Distant Nosferatu: Heals, but nowhere near as much as Nosferatu. Same range as Arcfire, so a followup with this is possible if inferior to Arcthunder. Usable.

I'm rather curious why the Gusty Cape is red. The damage decrease is pretty insiginificant, it seems to do as much damage as the normal Cape when reflecting, it stalls in the air longer, and I can't quite find any other downsides. I'm tempted to say there's a tad more end lag but I don't trust my eyes well enough because the difference seems tiny.
The Gust Cape also lets Mario Cape Stall again, so it's useful for that alone. (Hell, the CPU does it. That should say something.)
 
Last edited:

Zachmac

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#13
Edit: Graah, my internet is acting up.

Eh, I wouldn't give Lucina's Shield Breaker red. It's surprisingly easy to land. That said, I'm no expert on her, so I'll just say yellow unless someone else comes along and screens for green.

Anyway, here's my thoughts on Dark Pit;
Silver Bow: It's half-decent on its own, but it's laggy and has little use. It's only really for attacking(unreliably) from the other side of Final Destination interrupting Ike's side-b while it's charging or something.
Piercing Bow: This is really laggy, has a short-ish range, and is just begging to be punished. Ew.
Guiding Bow: This move is awesome. It's doesn't do much extra damage when charged, but it still curves extremely well and has some great range. It's excellent for striking opponents who are off stage.

Arms - I'll skip over these. The two customs seem to have potential, but I'm unsure. They need testing.

Power of Flight: All around awesome recovery.
Striking Flight: The hitbox is pretty pointless. It can't kill, it's not something you ever want to use off-stage, and just makes you slightly easier to intercept off stage. And what's more? It hurts your horizontal recovery as well. Just no.
Breezy Flight: It pulls opponents in so it can do, uh, what now? Push foes back? It's a cute attempt at an edge-guard move, I guess, but that loss of recovery distance is totally not worth it.

Guardian Orbitars: Not bad. They reflect objects well enough, and the wind boxes/invulnerability can save you sometimes. Note that you do not want to use this just to block close-ranged attacks. It's just a nice thing to have just in case. However, when you compare them to a certain something else, there is not much reason to use them...
Impact Orbitars: These are going to take some testing. They don't seem great, but the hitboxes are nice, at least. Maybe they'll be decent for edge guarding?
Amplifying Orbitars: These totally outclass the Guardian Orbitars. Yeah, sure, they break easy, but their only reliable function is at reflecting projectiles, not blocking other attacks. These just do so much better at that.
 
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Comorant

Smash Cadet
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#14
Guardian Orbitars give you a safer landing when dealing with characters who try to juggle you, I wouldn't dismiss them as being entirely outclassed.
 

Zachmac

Delusional Zard Loyalist
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#15
Guardian Orbitars give you a safer landing when dealing with characters who try to juggle you, I wouldn't dismiss them as being entirely outclassed.
Well, maybe it helps with the juggling, but I wouldn't say it's an entirely safe landing. The orbitars have some ending lag that can be punished. Why, I just lost an important match in a tournament on another website because I tried to use them to protect myself on the way down.

And even if Amplifying Orbitars are more fragile, they can still project him from a hit. I've never tried them to stop a foe from juggling, but I think they could work for that.
 
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BRoomer
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#16
This is a cool Idea, but in my opinion it is much much to early. Lists like these discourage people (especially new players) from experimenting with customs and finding out things that other, sometimes even more experienced players wouldn't have or may have written off as weak if they did.

Also Pops, I love you. We've gotta play sometime.
 
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#17
Eh, I wouldn't give Lucina's Shield Breaker red. It's surprisingly easy to land. That said, I'm no expert on her, so I'll just say yellow unless someone else comes along and screens for green.
SB is red because Dashing Assault really is that good for Marth/Lucina.

I'd upgrade Dolphin Jump to green, if not purple. M/L's ability to go so ****ing deep with it is a big deal and Dolphin Slash isn't as good as it used to be as an actual attack. I also have a sneaking but unconfirmed suspicion that DJ has better invulnerability frames.

Whip Lash should probably be green (guaranteed followups woo), otherwise I agree with your ZSS assessment.

:4shulk::
Monado Arts: The most flexible of his options, I've had the most success with this.
Decisive Monado Arts: I love the duration boost (very little cooldown before an art's up again), but the inability to switch modes on the fly ends up hurting him too much.
Hyper Monado Arts: Has the opposite issue of Decisive Monado Arts, but it works out somewhat better so I'm leaving it yellow for now.

Back Slash
Back Slash Leap: Powerful, some shenanigans possible, but mostly just does things you can already do but does them a bit better.
Back Slash Charge: This **** is good. Armor and great range.

Air Slash
Advancing Air Slash
: I haven't settled on one or the other yet, so these two are staying yellow for now. Air Slash is slightly better as a recovery move, Advancing Air Slash does a bit more damage and kills slightly earlier.
Mighty Air Slash: More damage, but it doesn't kill and it's a weaker OoS option/harder to land in general due to the decreased range.

Vision
Dash Vision

Power Vision: This can outright kill at rather ridiculous percents. The mere threat of using this option is a big deal for Shulk.
 
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mimgrim

Smash Hero
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Jun 20, 2013
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#18
I pretty much agree with Less Than Pie, I think those are the symbols in the username of @ <π at any rate.

I mean I have an idea of what I think is is best for certain characters and stuff but I still don't have every custom moves, though I am super close, and despite thinking of what I think is best I'm still doing a lot of tinkering with them.

Just too early.
 
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KingTeo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
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Messages
183
#19
SB is red because Dashing Assault really is that good for Marth/Lucina.

I'd upgrade Dolphin Jump to green, if not purple. M/L's ability to go so ****ing deep with it is a big deal and Dolphin Slash isn't as good as it used to be as an actual attack. I also have a sneaking but unconfirmed suspicion that DJ has better invulnerability frames.

Whip Lash should probably be green (guaranteed followups woo), otherwise I agree with your ZSS assessment.

:4shulk::
Monado Arts: The most flexible of his options, I've had the most success with this.
Decisive Monado Arts: I love the duration boost (very little cooldown before an art's up again), but the inability to switch modes on the fly ends up hurting him too much.
Hyper Monado Arts: Has the opposite issue of Decisive Monado Arts, but it works out somewhat better so I'm leaving it yellow for now.

Back Slash
Back Slash Leap: Powerful, some shenanigans possible, but mostly just does things you can already do but does them a bit better.
Back Slash Charge: This **** is good. Armor and great range.

Air Slash
Advancing Air Slash
: I haven't settled on one or the other yet, so these two are staying yellow for now. Air Slash is slightly better as a recovery move, Advancing Air Slash does a bit more damage and kills slightly earlier.
Mighty Air Slash: More damage, but it doesn't kill and it's a weaker OoS option/harder to land in general due to the decreased range.

Vision
Dash Vision

Power Vision: This can outright kill at rather ridiculous percents. The mere threat of using this option is a big deal for Shulk.
I'm not really very experienced with Shulk but I want to disagree with you about his Arts. Mostly his Decisive Arts. They last long but they don't last too long. Since they're more potent than the default monado arts and they last longer I'd say they're not only more effective but safer as long as you have the common sense to pick what you need. 432
 
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ParanoidDrone

Smash Master
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#20
Vision
Dash Vision
Power Vision: This can outright kill at rather ridiculous percents. The mere threat of using this option is a big deal for Shulk.
The description for Power Vision says it gets weaker when used repeatedly. How and when does it get weaker? My own testing was inconclusive.

Vaguely related, are there seriously no redeeming qualities to Vision and Dash Vision compared to Power Vision?
 

Starbound

Worlds Apart, But Still Together.
Joined
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Messages
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#21
Here's some for Palutena.

Neutral Special:
Auto-Reticle
Explosive Flame

Heavenly Light

Side Special:
Reflect Barrier
Super Speed
Angelic Missile

Up Special:
Warp
Jump Glide
Rocket Jump


Down Special:
Counter
Lightweight
Celestial Fireworks
 
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Joined
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Messages
1,245
#22
I'm not really very experienced with Shulk but I want to disagree with you about his Arts. Mostly his Decisive Arts. They last long but they don't last too long. Since they're more potent than the default monado arts and they last longer I'd say they're not only more effective but safer as long as you have the common sense to pick what you need. 432
Here's the thing: needs are dynamic. What happens when you switch to Smash and get a quick kill, but are stuck in Smash for another 10-15 seconds? You lose efficiency at the start of the next stock. Or if you need to use Jump to recover or get an edgeguard? You only need that art for a few seconds, after that it's detrimental. I could provide similar situations for the other three arts as well, all of them scenarios that can and will occur in actual play. For a character that's designed to adapt, the benefits of Decisive Arts simply do not outweigh the drawbacks.

The description for Power Vision says it gets weaker when used repeatedly. How and when does it get weaker? My own testing was inconclusive.

Vaguely related, are there seriously no redeeming qualities to Vision and Dash Vision compared to Power Vision?
The activation window decreases when used more than once within a certain timeframe. It also resets upon losing a stock.

They have their merits (and drawbacks), but Power Vision is such a powerful tool in the situations where utilizing a counter is actually wise that it tends to steamroll them in practical use.
 
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BRoomer
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LessThanPi
#23
@ InfinityCollision InfinityCollision @ KingTeo KingTeo
You guys are arguing whether swords or daggers are better. There are situational needs they both fufill, and everything you guys are saying is likely correct on both ends, however more often than not it just comes down to personal preference.
 
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Messages
6,933
#24
@ popsofctown popsofctown

I feel like this thread is akin to tier listing custom moves and it is FAR too early to determine many of these. Sure, there may be some which are clearly unusable or clearly incredibly good... but this thread will cause many people to write off many custom specials that may not be bad. I'm sure some of these have unique properties or bugs that nobody in the competitive scene has discovered. Maybe even applications that weren't considered either. Stifling creativity of players in a new game is not the impression we should be giving.

On top of that, there is no method for choosing who decides which specials are good or bad. People are simply posting. We don't know if these people have tried these characters/specials once and wrote them off or what. Character boards are definitely the ideal way of getting this info more targeted.

That said, I believe the current discussion in this thread is healthy, intelligent, and worthwhile. And I think a quick reference for which specials are considered horrible or incredible when first experimenting with custom moves is of value to the community.

So instead of locking it, how about I make a suggestion? I'd recommend reorganizing the color system to being more vague, only 3 colors (purple = without a doubt by far the best one, green = usable, red = clearly unusable/outclassed) with VERY strict criteria for choosing a color other than the neutral one, and allow more discussion on each character before deciding each. Perhaps rotating each day or two with a new character and focusing the discussion on single characters at a time before making a determination of color. If you can find another way you'd prefer to address the concerns I brought up rather than this suggestion then please go for it.
 
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HeavyLobster

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#25
Let's try :4ganondorf:.
Warlock Punch The armor can be used to tank and punish laggy moves, it's more powerful than Warlock Blade, and isn't sweetspot-reliant when it comes to kill power. Still probably outclassed, but I'm not willing to rule it out just yet.
Warlock Blade Still a situational move, but it can do what WP can and more, as the huge hitbox can be very scary for edgeguarding, especially against characters with limited recovery options. Probably the best in any situation I can think of.
Warlock Thrust Outclassed by Fair/Bair in the air and FSmash on the ground. I can't think of a use for this move.Edit: Not quite useless, its hitbox can be useful to stuff certain approaches. Still pretty laggy and not super rewarding to land, but could be usable as the alternatives aren't really great either.

Flame Choke Good punish tool that can beat shields and set up a tech chase. Unfortunately it can be punishable on hit in certain situations, mostly from the aerial version. It's utility is pretty matchup dependent, probably being the better option against heavies and armor-based characters.
Flame Wave Lets you beat shields without having to worry about it being techable(except in the air), and it does more consistent damage and can kill, but unfortunately being slower and having less range hurts its viability. Might have some situational use.
Flame Chain The preferred option against zoners. Good for recovery, eats through projectiles and spotdodges, and knocks the opponent back at a horizontal angle, possibly setting up a techchase or edgeguard. Hard to tell whether this is better overall compared to Choke, but an absolute must for certain matchups like Megaman.

Dark Dive Not a particularly impressive move, Dark Fists does most of what this does better. It's possible the grabbox comes out faster than DF, but the relative reward is pretty pathetic. It's harder to slip in between the grab and punch than it is between the two hits of the other two attacks, so someone might find a situation where this is the best option, but I wouldn't count on it.
Dark Fists Has armor which comes out faster than any of his aerials and impressive kill power if the two hits link.(Kills Mario on FD at 80% without rage or vectoring) Has respectable distance and can be tricky to challenge directly. Can be used as an OoS punish in certain situations. Overall a really good move.
Dark Vault Best vertical recovery, though the two grabboxes have no real offensive utility except to disrupt edgeguarders. Not as good as Dark Fists overall, but may be preferred against certain characters, especially those that aren't easily hit by both hits of Dark Fists.(Jigglypuff comes to mind)

Wizard's Foot A decent move overall, more powerful than Dropkick and has a spike hitbox but is usually not as good as Wizard's Dropkick.
Wizard's Dropkick Helps recovery, edgeguarding, vs. projectiles and more. The grounded version jumps over projectiles and has less lag than the default, while the aerial version travels diagonally and gives him everything Melee's Wizkick + extra DJ did and more for recovery. Both versions send the opponent horizontally to set up a potential edgeguard.
Wizard's Assault A worse version of the already outclassed default Wizkick, making this a doubly outclassed move. Even at this early stage in the meta I'm pretty comfortable telling people not to use it.
 
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Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
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#26
I have diagreements with every character so far in the OP. I could talk about most characters comfortably (spent a ton of time on customs), but I'll just start with these guys:

Lucario: Snaring Aura Sphere should be in green at least if not purple; the move is an insane, character definingly good move. It just dominates space, and it gets to be overwhelming as the aura rises. It's not even that the default is a bad move, but I just can't imagine ever not picking a move this flat out incredible. Likewise, why is Advancing Force Palm in red instead of at least green? Snaring Aura Sphere makes people block while Advancing Force Palm catches them with a rushing forward command grab. To be real, Force Palm as a projectile is pretty trashy even if the range is huge (it's just too laggy), and as a close range grab, it has little to offer over an ordinary grab. Rushing forward with a command grab is one of the most fundamentally powerful things any character can do, and with Snaring Aura Sphere, Lucario has what may be the best tool in the game to cover it. When I play Lucario, I feel bringing Advancing Force Palm gives me a big edge and very strongly prefer it on side special. I also think Ride the Wind is going to prove to be a good move; it's essentially impossible to control on 3ds's awful circle pad, but the recovery potential is so hilariously massive that I think a skilled Lucario player would really exploit this one a lot. I am not entirely sure about Lucario's long term best up specials, but I'd be slow to narrow it to just the default.

Lucina/Marth:

I mostly agree but really do feel like Dolphin Jump is awful. It doesn't sweetspot ledges and doesn't hit. It goes straight up in a very, very limited path. Yeah, offensively it lets Marth and Lucina take huge risks off stage. How about defensively when you're knocked off stage and trying to get back? It makes their recovery into the very worst ones in the game. Let's say you're hit anywhere you need up special to recover. What do you do? You either up special in the wrong spot and slowly drift in helpless over the stage (death sentence) or fall super far below the plane of the stage to recover from a very specific point. It will take you a long time to get there, and a gimp will be waiting. You don't even hit while rising; your opponent has to have Little Mac level bad off-stage game for this gimp not to be just super easy. Just how bad this is is probably masked by awful 3ds controls that make it so hard to chase off-stage, but this move has nowhere to go but down. I'd put normal Dolphin Slash in green, Crescent Slash in yellow (the move has problems but some niche uses, far less suicidal to pick than Dolphin Jump though), and Shield Breaker in yellow mostly because the effect is good enough to maybe consider against very particular opponents though for sure neutral 3 should be the go-to recommendation.

Mario:

Fast Fireball is WAY better than the default. Neither projectile does any kind of real damage and is mostly for disruption. Fast Fireball is legitimately very disruptive while the default is a much more mediocre annoyance move. IMO Fast Fireball to green and default to yellow. On Cape, the wind cape really is just plain better than the default; it still reflects projectiles perfectly fine, and the huge windbox is incredibly useful and disruptive while the extra damage of the default is of dubious value. Shocking Cape is interesting for the shield damage but gives up basically 100% of the basic utility of the cape; I'd put the wind cape in green, shocking in yellow, and default in red. I also don't see why default FLUDD isn't in red; high pressure seems strictly superior (the longer charge time is just so meaningless for any practical gameplay purpose). I kinda suspect Scalding FLUDD will prove useful in some obscure match-up situations eventually despite being bad in general (Villager especially I could see it having niche use against efficient tree camping while other FLUDD versions would do absolutely nothing in that match-up), but I don't feel like I can substantiate that well at this point.

Rosalina:

Is Launch Star Attack actually better than default? I don't find the offensive properties very useful at all, and Rosalina goes less far which does matter every once in a while. I'm also not sure that default Luma Shot is red-worthy though yeah Luma Warp is generally better; the default as a projectile itself is actually pretty handy sometimes, and in the long run, I could see it being correct in certain match-ups. I otherwise agree with these assessments for her.

Zero Suit Samus:

I mostly agree, but why is Flip Jump so strongly recommended over Low Flip? They seem really similar to me with whichever one is preferred mostly being player preference and match-up situation. I don't even think Shooting Star Flip Kick is worthless even though it's way more niche than the other two; it is a decently powerful kill move even if otherwise just worse so there may be match-ups in which it makes sense even if it's not going to be very many of them. Your current color situation covers this poorly since you have three moves here that I think all have merit, two are nearly tied and the third is more situational but not worthless. Perhaps players who are bigger ZSS players than I have a stronger feeling on this one, but it seems strange to me to have one clear winner on this moveslot.
 
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Messages
1,245
#27
Dolphin Jump... doesn't sweetspot ledges
Actually it can. In fact it's arguably better in this respect than Dolphin Slash - you can start sweetspotting Dolphin Jump at about the same distance from the ledge as Dolphin Slash would sweetspot.

why is Flip Jump so strongly recommended over Low Flip?
Coverage and power. Low Flip can only cover a specific area since you can't control the jump, and it's obviously much weaker. Flip Jump takes slightly longer to reach that same area, but it's more powerful and more flexible both horizontally and vertically. It's also strictly better when used offstage.
 
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Plino

 
Premium
Joined
May 3, 2009
Messages
7,191
#28
I feel you (or whoever colouredit red) are really underrating Crescent Slash. It's a guaranteed follow-up on all aerial grab releases and also a true combo from fthrow on most (I think all) characters up until around 40%, in both circumstances connecting with the sweetspot. This means that with shorter characters that Lucina lifts off the ground when grabbing (Villager, Mario, Pikachu, etc) you will ALWAYS have the option to tack on at most 12% damage out of a grab release. It also means that grabbing characters who are recovering high will probably ensure a KO since they'll most likely already have high damage and if you're grabbing them out of a recovery then they're probably dangling which also guarantees an aerial grab release regardless of height. I'm not saying its an "SS" tier custom since it hinders recovery but it isn't all that bad.

Also Standard Luma Shot shouldn't be red either since it gives you more versatility in your initial Luma spacing than Warp does. Also Launch Star attack isn't that great; it only combos into Luma attacks at very low percentages, has much poorer range than standard Launch Star, and the fact that it puts you into special fall means that the pros nearly never outweigh the risks.

Anyway

:4villagerf:

Standard B
Pocket: Excellent grabbox range that nearly doubles Pocketed projectiles' damage output (x1.91). Also adds a KB multiplier and possibly a shield damage multiplier which is really nifty. Overall the range coupled with the multipliers makes this an excellent utility that finds use in nearly every matchup. Notably, it completely skews the ROB matchup in Villager's favour by essentially removing one of their most useful specials from their moveset when Gyro is Pocketed, which is an incredibly easy feat. It also eases the Dedede matchup by making ranged Gordos a near non-issue.

Garden: Noticeably smaller and more precise grabbox than standard Pocket. However, it retains the intangiblity frames and deals 10% while adding a flower, making it a pseudo-counter. This finds use in matchups like Little Mac, Sheik, and Bowser, where it stops their smash attacks and aerials in their tracks. It also neuters Luma Shot. However, while it is an excellent counter, getting used to the smaller Pocketing range will prove detrimental in a lot of matchups like Mega Man and Lucario. It also doesn't add any multipliers, making Pocketed projectiles much less threatening to the opponent.

Pocket Plus: Ridiculously expansive grabbox. However, there is literally no reason to use this custom over the other two. Standard pocket already has incredibly forgiving range. On top of that, Pocket Plus only applies a x1.3 damage multiplier, making it totally useless without even considering Garden.

Side B
Lloid Rocket: Very useful camping and stage control tool. It can either be deployed along the ground to force characters into the air, or short hopped to prevent short hopped approaches. Whatever the matchup, Lloid Rocket can be used to your advantage, whether that be by forcing the opponent into unfavourable positions for them, or absorbing projectiles such as Needles, Gyros, and Lumas. It is also a decent recovery option. Although it is very easy to read and for the opponent to play around, the ability to adjust your velocity with such precision allows for mixups and fakeouts to bait and punish shields, smashes, rolls, and spotdodges with a surprisingly powerful explosion. The downside is that Lloid can be prematurely detonated by nearly anything, including non-damaging projectiles such as opposing Villagers' watering cans. This can limit its usefulness, though in nearly all circumstances it will be destroyed late enough for another to be generated immediately if the need arises.

Pushy Lloid: Arguably better than standard Lloid for tree camping due to the fact that it isn't destroyed as easily and its multiple hits are nearly inescapable, dragging opponents away from you and your tree. However, it travels only half the distance of standard Lloid, the explosion does not deal more damage when Villager is riding it, and Villager can still be knocked cleanly off, meaning that there is nearly never a reason to use it to get back onstage. Overall Standard and Pushy Lloid are both extremely useful in their own rights, neither being better than the other because they both perform equally well in all matchups. That is to say, they are, for the most part, interchangeable.

Rising Lloid: It isn't as bad as Pocket Plus, because it travels an incredible distance and deals a lot of damage. The issue with Rising Lloid is that the overall flight path is much less useful. It is absolutely horrible for trying to get KO's on characters near the upper blastline because of how easy it is to avoid, and all variations of Balloon Trip cover vertical recovery well enough to leave one unable to warrant its use for that.

Down B
Counter Timber: Without a doubt the best move in Villager's entire repertoire, and arguably the best custom in the game. As a sapling, it outshines staples such as Diddy's banana peels because of sheer longevity and the fact that it isn't prone to being snatched by the opponent. It completely can completely shut down any character's ground movement, with exceptions being far and few between, such as Little Mac - who is forced to either Jolt Haymaker over the sapling or use FSmash/FTilt's super armour to power through, both of which are incredibly readable - and Bowser Jr., who can possibly Kart Dash over the sapling (however, that more or less neuters the move's effectiveness in scouting approach openings). The watering can, like all other variations, has nearly uncontested priority, clanking with virtually any standard attack, such as Shulk's FSmash and Link's DAir. As a tree it makes Villager nearly unapproachable, shutting down both grounded and aerial approaches with its counter, which not only is activated upon being attacked by an opponent, but can also be forced by an attack from its own Villager as well. With any low powered move activating a counter, the Villager can get 5 counters out of it by using their Jab. This can be further mixed up with ranged counters activated by slingshots, which at their weakest point can get 6 or 7 counters. While the lower HP can be off-putting in certain matchups where the tree is useful for absorbing projectiles (such as in Palutena and Mega Man), and the axe and tree are not serious KO options, Villager will invariably have ways to play around these faults, making Counter Timber the variation that should ALWAYS be used.

Timber: Timber is infamous for its incredible KOing power, be it sprouting, falling, or the axe itself. It is a solid move on its own. However, there is simply no real reason to use it over its countering cousin. While it is a real KO option, it is not exactly a reliable one. Of course, there is the fact that with 30% HP it has more staying power and is therefore also good for camping. It may even be better for camping against projectiles, though it must be said that Lloid and Pocket can easily cover Counter Timber's inferior projectile-coping ability. The one thing that it does definitely have over Counter Timber is the axe. Dealing 14% and high knockback with low startup lag, it is probably the most useful part of the custom, as it adds a reliable KO option to Villager's moveset for the entirety of the tree's duration, which is sorely needed considering the rest of the character's moveset.

Super Timber: Simply too laggy in all of its stages to warrant its use. While the axe deals a mighty blow equivalent to most smash attacks, it suffers from both moderate startup and high cooldown lag. This is only compounded by the fact that unlike smash attacks, it is not chargeable, meaning that the player must find a situation where it will be immediately useful and commit to it. Villager will have a hard time finding this opportunity though, making the axe decidedly UN-useful. The tree also takes a while to sprout, to fall, and also has a long chopping animation, making it that much easier for the opponent to play around. Of course, this means longer lasting hitboxes that hit extremely hard, but the question is WHEN they will hit. The answer to which is, regrettably, nearly never. This tree has 50% HP, meaning that it can absorb hits all day long. However, standard Timber already does it well enough; Super Timber is unnecessary overkill.

Up B

Extreme Balloon Trip: While at first glance Extreme Balloon Trip's bad vertical recovery makes it seem inferior to both other variations, this is simply untrue. When both balloons are detonated, the Villager gets popped very high into the air, around three fourths of the height a Balloon High Jump grants. This can be done at will, making it useful. Add to that the fact that the balloons have powerful launching hitboxes when exploded, and it becomes VERY useful. Villager becomes incredibly difficult to edgeguard when using this custom, as the balloons can absorb projectiles and force prospective offstage attackers such as igglypuff and Sheik to be wary of their spacing. If they hit the balloons, they are forced away while incurring 10% damage; if they hit the Villager, then they must make sure they got the KO, otherwise Villager can simply spawn more balloons. It is also a potent KO option near the upper blastline. Balloons > ledge > drop > Balloons again also becomes a relatively safe edge option, as the balloons can float through stages and explode if another set is generated. With the most common spacing, the first balloons will nearly always float to right below and behind a character standing near the edge, so that when the second set of balloons are spawned, the first will explode and knock away the opponent. They are also yet another stage control option, as they eat up aerials and projectiles, and, again, can be exploded at will even if separated from the Villager.

Balloon Trip: While they don't provide the offensive versatility of Extreme Balloons, standard Balloons allow Villager to recover from virtually any point on the screen, and allow much more leeway with offstage game. Other than that though, for pure recovery, Extreme Balloon Trip does it well enough while deterring edgeguarding.

Balloon High Jump: While it allows Villager to blast off to an incredible height, standard already does that better. While it grants Villager another attacking option, Extreme already does that better, too. As a compromise between the two, Balloon High Jump is inferior to them for the same reason that the rest of the bad customs are: it is sorely outclassed.
 

Berserker.

Let's think positive!
Moderator
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Jun 8, 2009
Messages
18,974
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#29
Vision
Dash Vision
Power Vision: This can outright kill at rather ridiculous percents. The mere threat of using this option is a big deal for Shulk.
I'd say vision is green while dash vision is yellow. Vision is still a great counter overall. Dash vision is good in certain match ups (Campers) but the damage nerf hurts a lot. Also at low percents, if you land this, you can actually set up for u-tilt or u-smash after the counter attack given that you end up under the opponent
 
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popsofctown

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
2,505
Location
Alabama
#30
I added a warning to the beginning of the thread to emphasize that people shouldn't squelch their creativity and rely on this instead of creating and innovating.
I don't want to stiffen the color coding system because I think it's valuable for it to be flexible enough for people to see a green move they should try out first when they start a character, and a yellow move they should mess with next. I don't want to remove information because I'm afraid of what people might do with the information, I have to trust people that with great information comes great responsibility and blah blah.

I also warned of the deliberate incorrectness that I'm going with, because I certainly don't want new players who main a character to use this thread to tell them to never try their red moves, it's for experienced players to use a proper moveset when they try out some unusual character between sets with their main, and have a custom set already there that's more "default" than the factory default.

Crescent slash stays red because you need to pretty much be maining a character to be memorizing the grab release list.

Ganon's moves stay red because you pretty much shouldn't be playing Ganon. (Jk, they're up there)

Try to post an uncommented version of the moves before or after your comments to make my life easier if you can.
 
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#31
I'd say vision is green while dash vision is yellow. Vision is still a great counter overall. Dash vision is good in certain match ups (Campers) but the damage nerf hurts a lot. Also at low percents, if you land this, you can actually set up for u-tilt or u-smash after the counter attack given that you end up under the opponent
The only way I could make either of those not red under the OP's system would be to downgrade Power Vision from purple. If I did that, it'd be green and either both of them would be yellow or Vision would be yellow and Dash Vision would be red.
 

popsofctown

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#32
I've seen other posts about Power Vision before and I think it seems getting the other visions to work better than Power Vision in a matchup will require expert technique beyond scope of thread.
 
Last edited:

Plino

 
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#33
Crescent slash stays red because you need to pretty much be maining a character to be memorizing the grab release list.
You dont need to memorise grab releases. All you have to do is look at the victim's feet. If they arent planted firmly on the ground, and are dangling in the air, then you will get an aerial grab release, UNLESS you pummel them within a certain amount of frames of the release, in which case you get a grounded release regardless of feet status.
 

popsofctown

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#34
You can't dangle your opponent in the air while you pick out your loadout on the CSS screen.

The point of this thread is that if an experience Yoshi player wants to try out Marth for the second time ever againt some character, he should probably slot Dolphin Jump for now.
 
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SapphSabre777

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#35
Oh goodie! Something that allows my many hours of grinding for customs to be put to use other than just goofing off!

I'll likely give out updates when I'm not busy about what customs I like and not when I have the chance.

:4kirby:

Neutral B:

Inhale: Almost absolutely outclassed by Jumping Inhale, which is blech.
Ice Breath: Definitely viable, but a bit situational as well. Fast rush characters would likely be dreading this option, but...
Jumping Inhale: A rushdown version of Inhale that takes up a lot of space and can threaten edgeguarding? I'll take it!

Side B:

Hammer Flip: Full charged Hammer Flip has some merits to it (such as super armor and a rather surprising hitbox) to at least make it viable. I definitely think it isn't worthless, it just takes some skill and timing to implement it.
Hammer Bash: Essentially as close to Brawl's Hammer as we are going to get...but it is faster and has more opportunities to land when compared to the other Side Bs, so that is a huge plus.
Giant Hammer: Just let DeDeDe use large hammers. Slow, predictable...you are better with the other two in my opinion.

Up B:

Final Cutter: Outclassed in damage usage by Wave Cutter and recovery-wise by Upper Cutter. Best to go with one of the extremes in my opinion.
Wave Cutter: Pretty much a power-filled Final Cutter that does a rather considerable amount of damage, but its slower. If you like Final Cutter, best to upgrade to this in my opinion.
Upper Cutter: Downright scary as to what it can do overall. Extremely fast, can be used as a killing tool for the upper KO-boundary. Cannot be thrown as much as the above two since it is punishable if you whiff (the only reason it doesn't get purple), but the amount of utility it has sets it apart.

Down B:

Stone: Risky at times, but very effective. Definitely usable to punish those chasing after Kirby with reckless abandon and can force patience onto the opponent.
Grounding Stone: Transforming into the rock takes longer, but having minimal lag out of the move is awesome. Definitely has some use to it.
Meteor Stone: The opposite, in terms of lag, to Grounding Stone...which is bad.
 
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#36
Is Ride The Wind really that bad bad? i knew the lack of damage sucked, but i figured it would be yellow with E-speed Green. Plus i can navigate around attacks, but then again your casual player will take a while to realize that.

Also Mr Doubles & Watch's Down and Sides i will do. Both tested on Mario.

Panic Overload: Broken as hell in teams, should be banned from Doubles. Still very good in Singles, but jsut as useless as the others against non-projectilers. I don't see a big lowering in collecting range, being reduced from a huge bubble to the bucket itself. Yeah like that matters that you can get hit by fireballs in the feet. . And must i get started on that hit box? It's huge, but too bad it is so easy to miss. Also i can deconfirm any damage increase.
Efficient Panic: Pls no. The range goes about 1 G&W and a half in front of you. The multiplier is *2 rather than *2.5. Only one projectile is added into calculation, so yeah. You can only get one projectile? Kinda good, but in projectile matchups BAD. Nintendorks consider this good 100% of the time, and nerf the multiplier, the range, which is everything relevant... I don't even want to go on.

Oil Panic: Only because rules. This may be decent, But if there is purple, the rest are red. Also there is no reason to really use this even though it isn't bad, just outclassed. But it is an average move outclassed by a Meta-Knight worthy move. It's like comparing Politoed and Kyogre if you ever venture into Smogon like i did. One is simply better.

Side Special in progress.

Chain Judge: Your (un)naturally reliable Side Specia- Wait what? Reliable Judge? Yes. Sure, you will not dine in hell tonight with the 9s, but dining in limbo is still an option as they are really strong. In short, the numbers equals the amount of hits. 9 is not an OHKO and the weakest of the bunch, but every other letter is better(1 has no recoil REJOICE!). I think sacrificing a OHKO in exchange for being able to almost entirely ignore the result as it will be helpful is so great a tradeoff, I was only gonna not make this purple because Judge is... well, i don't know what Judge has over this. Fire effect and Electric don't do much, and the OHKO is improbable, the ice not long or strong enough. So it's purple.

Judge: Your naturally (un)reliable Side Special. Random effect means that you can't use this in any practical case. The only reason this isn't red is because the below set a really low bar to get red for. This has it's uses, like the OHKO of 9, but i personally hate when the RNG screws me up with a 1 when ANYTHING ELSE COULD HAVE KOED EVEN 2 . Nothing is really that goes except the 9. And if you're willing to bet it all on that, you kinda should lose.

Extreme Judge: Literally one flaw pushes it from purple to red: The lack of a 50-50. More like 80-20. Holy crap. The amount of 1s you will get is absurd. I can't even Judge this one well because of the damm RNG making it a 95-5(nor eally after 19 is i get a 9). Unless you are the embodiment of luck, don't bother. Please. They also weakened the 1's recoil, but again 19*5= 95. 19*12=228, so i gues sit's alot better. but still... They even weakened the 9 in the rare case of it happening. Don't forget not only you will hrut yourself a lot, you will also stale the move into obscurity in a real case.
 
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Thinkaman

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Thinkaman
#37
I think Arcfire+ might be the best option against Rosalina; it's brutal against Luma, and removing Luma is HUGE for Robin. This is the only matchup I would use it in. I also think Distant Nosfertu should be the default, because unlike the other options it has SOME situational uses in high-level 1v1 play.

I also think Super Speed is best in all matchups, but Reflect Barrier is still a really good move even so... I also am starting to think that Lightweight is dominant.

Fro Ganondorf, some Ganon mains have expressed some support for Warlock Thrust; I don't personally care for it, but see the merit. I also think Dark Vault is not worth taking in any matchup or stage.

:4jigglypuff:'s moves are... sort of self-evident in value:

Neutral B:
1 Rollout
2 Relentless Rollout
3 Raging Rollout


Side B:
1 Pound
2 Sideways Pound
3 Pound Blitz


Up B:
1 Sing
2 Hyper Voice
3 Spinphony


Down B:
1 Rest
2 Leaping Rest
3 Wakie Wakie

:4wiifit:'s moves are almost all very good, though Jumbo Hoop is just too good:

Neutral B:
1 Sun Salutation
2 Concentrated Sun Salutation
3 Sweeping Sun Salutation

Side B:
1 Header
2 Huge Header
3 Weighted Header


Up B:
1 Super Hoop
2 Jumbo Hoop
3 Hoop Hurricane

Down B:
1 Deep Breathing
2 Volatile Breathing
3 Steady Breathing



Here are some loose non-default "purples":
:rosalina: Speedy Star Bit
:4bowserjr: Big Mechakoopa
:4zelda: Din's Flare
:4falco: Void Reflector
:4sonic: Hammer Spin Dash
 

Goesasu

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#38
I've seen other posts about Power Vision before and I think it seems getting the other visions to work better than Power Vision in a matchup will require expert technique beyond scope of thread.
Im a shulk main and even though its true that power vision its stronger, its SEEMS to me that missing the activation window just one time makes it way harder to land it after it. i would love to know how much time does it take to reset.

Regular vision usually does the trick well enough in for glory, im stull doubtful if power vision truly outclass regular vision in all cases.
 
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#39
Im a shulk main and even though its true that power vision its stronger, its SEEMS to me that missing the activation window just one time makes it way harder to land it after it. i would love to know how much time does it take to reset.

Regular vision usually does the trick well enough in for glory, im stull doubtful if power vision truly outclass regular vision in all cases.
Power Vision's drawback is that all Visions lose frames over time, but Power Vision loses at least twice as quick.
 

ChronoPenguin

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#40
Im a shulk main and even though its true that power vision its stronger, its SEEMS to me that missing the activation window just one time makes it way harder to land it after it. i would love to know how much time does it take to reset.

Regular vision usually does the trick well enough in for glory, im stull doubtful if power vision truly outclass regular vision in all cases.
It has a stronger staling effect.
This is why Vision is still relevant and not Red. If you are counter-reading on a generous level, then you'll want vision because it will stale slower. Power vision does wreck but its basically that pocket-once-in-a-while move. Vision is for when you want to be constantly punitive of heavy aggression.
 
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