Strength Tier List

[Gygados]

I'm interested in finding a tier list, based only on brute strength, for the charcters in Brawl. I thought the best way to get an accurate list is by asking you guys here.

Any help?

______________________________
Thanks to PrinceMarthX for the basic principle, although I misunderstood him and did it another way.

I've been working through the characters, and decided that the Smashes should not be charged, instead using the c-stick. Chargeable specials, however, can be charged. If an attack has two optional parts (Link's F Smash), or parts that are powerful and hard to hit (Kirby's Hammer in the air), they have been separated. I have have found the 5 most damaging attacks from each character and found the average of all of the attacks, thus giving me the Power Number. (Yes, I know this is not perfectly accurate, but still accurate enough.)

The list (subject to change. Will not be in order of strength until completed);

Mario 14.2
DK 20.4
Link 18
Samus 19.4
Kirbs 17.8

At this point I stopped.

 

[Mmac]

Ganondorf is God Tier

 

[Browny]

DK, snake, G&W and Ganon are top tier,
Diddy, shiek, ZSS are bottom

idk about the rest

 

[Razmakazi]

zelda and D3 for high tier ;o

 

[MarKO X]

Ike is definitely up there.

Oh, and hi damage Lucario... maybe at the bottom of the list... higher up depending on how many stock he's down.

 

[Samuelson]

Bowser, Ike, Ganon, DK, DDD, Snake are all at the top.

 

[Afropony]

Jigglypuff bottom?

 

[Gygados]

Jigglypuff bottom?

Near the bottom, but Jiggs has a few killer moves.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

If you're serious about making a tier list for strength (knock back power I presume) then I suggest finding the top 5 best killing moves for every character and average the percent. That average will be the number for that character. I also suggest using Mario for the test subject since he's supposed to be the base value.

 

[Gygados]

Thanks, PrinceMarthX!

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Thinking about it. I think 5 is a bit too much. 3 works better.

I've done a few characters.

Luigi
fire jump punch: 50%
forward smash tilted up (full charge) 50%
green missile (misfire): 57%

average: 52.3

----

Mario
forward smash tilted up (full charge) 63%
up smash (full charge) 82%
down smash (full charge) 97%

average: 80.6

---

Yoshi
forward smash (full charge) 76%
up smash (full charge) 85%
up air: 111%

average: 90.6

---

Toon Link
forward smash (full charge) 64%
up smash (full charge) 73%
down smash (full charge) 86%

average: 74.3

---

Ike
eruption (almost full charge) 10%
forward smash (full charge) 23%
up smash (full charge) 63%

average: 32

All tests were done from the center of Final Destination.

 

[3GOD]

If you want a more realistic test, I would avoid using fully charged smashes, and use C-Stick smashes instead. It's almost impossible to actually land a charged smash on anyone with a pulse, and it would also allow characters with strong aerial moves to be compared more accurately. Of course, then you have moves like Ganon's Murder Punch which is also nearly impossible to land, but still probably easier than charged smashes in general.

Also, you might want to make sure that Mario is set to human control and not a CPU using DI since that might affect the results.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

If you want a more realistic test, I would avoid using fully charged smashes, and use C-Stick smashes instead

I considered that. But if you don't fully charge smashes then you're giving attacks that charge like DK's punch or Samus's shot an unfair advantage. But you may be right. In a pratical sense, you're never going to land a fully charged smash unless their shield is broken.

Also, you might want to make sure that Mario is set to human control and not a CPU using DI since that might affect the results.

The DI factor is best left excluded. I may DI better for some attacks than others, skewing the numbers. If all attacks were DI'ed perfectly then the results for everything as a whole shouldn't be too much different. Say an attack kills at 70% without DI and 80% with. Another attack kills at 80% without and 90% with. In both instances, it's still a 10% difference.

 

[Samuelson]

You should also try Lucario at 168% damage and down by 2 stocks. Remember that his Fsmash is a tipper!

 

[PrinceMarthX]

The numbers when you exclude anything that charges. (If you can move while fully charged then it's allowed).

Luigi
fire jump punch: 50%
forward smash tilted up: 81%
up smash: 106%

average: 79

----

Mario
forward smash tilted up: 102%
up smash: 124%
down smash: 145%

average: 123.6

---

Yoshi
up air: 111%
Yoshi bomb: 111%
forward smash: 118%

average: 113.3

---

Toon Link
forward smash: 106%
up air: 111%
up smash: 112%

average: 109.6

---

Ike
forward smash: 52%
up air: 90%
forward tilt: 99%

average: 80.3

To my surprise Luigi actually beats Ike.

 

[Gygados]

I'm not too sure how you've calculated the percent, PrinceMarthX. The percent cannot correlate to damage percentage, can it?

Anyway, I've been going through the characters, and decided that smashes should not be charged, instead using the c-stick. Chargeable specials, however, can be charged. If an attack has two optional parts (Link's F Smash), or parts that are powerful and hard to hit (Kirby's Hammer in the air), they have been separated.

And I've used your original idea of the character's best five moves.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Those are the damage percents to KO Mario from the center of Final Destination. The average is the average of those three precents.

 

[Shy Guy 86]

Ivysaurs Up-Smash beats all

 

[Amide]

Jigglypuff bottom?

Rest disagrees with you. But yeah, she gets kills a lot from WoP.

 

[Gygados]

Those are the damage percents to KO Mario from the center of Final Destination. The average is the average of those three precents.

I see. I've been using Mario as a punching bag so that I could measure the strength of each attack. I've been on training so that I could just pause to replenish Mario's health. It doesn't require you to be anywhere in particular on the stage.


I will continue to complete the list in the way mentioned above. The list can be found on the first post.

 

[Xebenkeck]

i'd say ness is pretty beastly, the bat, fully charge pk flash PKT2, all do 20% damage plus.

 

[LUVTOY77-ROGUE WIREFRAME]

Doesn't King Dedede have the lowest kill % in the game?

 

[Shy Guy 86]

Doesn't King Dedede have the lowest kill % in the game?

True, DDD's Fully Charged F-Smash kills at 17%, Ivysaurs Fully Charged Up-Smash kills at 45%

 

[LUVTOY77-ROGUE WIREFRAME]

17?!
With DI though?
But is DI even considered?
I believe King Dedede is the strongest smasher so far.

 

[Xebenkeck]

i dont think he cares about knockback, just strentht in terms of damage

 

[LUVTOY77-ROGUE WIREFRAME]

And doesn't King Dedede's fully charged f-smash do 30 something?

 

[Dumah]

Ganondorf is God tier lol. You take like 4 hits (even jabs) from him and you're in danger of a KO.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

True, DDD's Fully Charged F-Smash kills at 17%, Ivysaurs Fully Charged Up-Smash kills at 45%

Ike's eruption and Game & Watch's bucket kill even lower.

 

[ZeonStar]

Ganondorf is God tier lol. You take like 4 hits (even jabs) from him and you're in danger of a KO.

This is true.

 

[Jibbles]

Game and Watch wins

Fully charged bucket can kill at 0%
#9 Judgment kills at 9%

And all three of his smashes are powerful.

 

[choknater]

hm guys i think sheik is the strongest no? she can do a one armed handstand.

 

[OrlanduEX]

hm guys i think sheik is the strongest no? she can do a one armed handstand.

ROFL.

But seriously, I think that this method isn't comprehensive enough. You need to find some way of averaging the strengths of all of a characters moves rather than their best three.
Super strong moves like G&W's bucket and Jiggly's rest kinda skew the results, don't you think?
I know it would be hard to average all the characters moves, but it would be more meaningful I think.

 

[0RLY]

Samus should be at the bottom, no doubt.

 

[Adapt]

Mario
forward smash tilted up: 102%
up smash: 124%
down smash: 145%

average: 123.6

---

Yoshi
up air: 111%
Yoshi bomb: 111%
forward smash: 118%

average: 113.3

Since i have all the data already for ZSS's kill percentages

(using the method above)


ZSS
d-special: 112% (upon grounded mario)
bair: 114%
fair: 121% for the second hit only (115% if first hit connects before)

Average: 115.67 (113.67 if the full fair is counted)

Note: no smashes come into play unless you charge the f-smash (kills at 108%)
and forward-B kills at 121%

DK, snake, G&W and Ganon are top tier,
Diddy, shiek, ZSS are bottom

idk about the rest

ZSS is not last. She may be in the weaker half, but I can't understand why it is assumed she's weak

 

[Calixto]

Wouldn't it be better to take the damage from each of a character's attack (easily done, most character boards have some kind of 'guide' that gives most of this data), and take the average of all of those?

 

[Samuelson]

If you really wanted to make this tier list accurate you would test more than 3 moves. The most accurate way to do this would be to test every move the character has.

 

[Adapt]

The problem with that is that certain moves are not used as killing moves, like ZSS's d-smash or Mario's fireballs
Even if they can kill at very high percents it would skew the results.


Damage doesn't work either, because moves have high damage, some have high knockback, and it's not always correlated. (think squirtle's d-throw compared to the rest of his throws)

 

[Samuelson]

The problem with that is that certain moves are not used as killing moves, like ZSS's d-smash or Mario's fireballs
Even if they can kill at very high percents it would skew the results.


Damage doesn't work either, because moves have high damage, some have high knockback, and it's not always correlated. (think squirtle's d-throw compared to the rest of his throws)

Good point. I would say do the top 10 killmoves then or at least top 7 killmoves. Testing 3 attacks obviously doesn't work because Luigi is more powerful then Ike if tested this way and it's pretty obvious that Ike is more powerful. Luigi has some great killmoves but Ike is overall stronger.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Jigglypuff's best killing move is Rollout.

 

[sauc3]

i was thinking about doing something like this only it was going to be about damage inflictd at 0%.

Some attacks to consider are

Charizards rock smash (45)
GaW's Judgement 9 (33)
Jigglypuffs Sleep (?)
Peach Death Turnip or Bomb (34/?)
Dedede's Fsmash (?)
Warlock/Falcon Punch (?)
unfortunately i dont have a tv right now so i cant test these things out myself.

Could someone maybe do this it would be really interesting.