Starcraft 2 (Info on first post!)

[Zankoku]

well by build maybe i just mean a more specific focus and goal against zerg? like... i need a beginning/middle/end of mind train of thought so im not just... building units for the sake of it.

im guessing Marine/Tank/Medivac is the most common composition?

The issue here is that the only build orders you can follow from beginning to end of a game are all-ins. There is no build order that says "take a 4th base at this point." I'm beginning to think the reason you slow down so much at two bases and don't even think about expanding again until an eternity later is because you run out of build order - nothing can hold your hand the whole way.

The goal against any opponent is to kill him. You can kill him early, or when you have an army that beats his (because Zerg mid-tier is kind of scary to use to defend Terran Marine/Tank), or when you've maxed out on the most badass army you can. However, only 1-base builds will tell you when you should be able to go in for the kill - the rest of them are intentionally open-ended so that you have room to expand and continue the game, or cut all worker production and set up an all-in from the point you're currently at.

In the direction you're going there is less I'm really able to teach you. You want clear actions to many specific conditions, which is why you're so heavily emphasizing a build order. That's not something I particularly believe has much of a future in any sort of unprepared (ladder, casual games) play.

 

[Lobos]

 

[Omni]

The issue here is that the only build orders you can follow from beginning to end of a game are all-ins. There is no build order that says "take a 4th base at this point." I'm beginning to think the reason you slow down so much at two bases and don't even think about expanding again until an eternity later is because you run out of build order - nothing can hold your hand the whole way.

The goal against any opponent is to kill him. You can kill him early, or when you have an army that beats his (because Zerg mid-tier is kind of scary to use to defend Terran Marine/Tank), or when you've maxed out on the most badass army you can. However, only 1-base builds will tell you when you should be able to go in for the kill - the rest of them are intentionally open-ended so that you have room to expand and continue the game, or cut all worker production and set up an all-in from the point you're currently at.

In the direction you're going there is less I'm really able to teach you. You want clear actions to many specific conditions, which is why you're so heavily emphasizing a build order. That's not something I particularly believe has much of a future in any sort of unprepared (ladder, casual games) play.

by build order i mean simple build orders that prepare me up to the like 20-30 food range. then after that a general PLAN or something i should be aiming for i.e. mid-game play or what unit comps to pick up.

but okay.
lets say i go home and play starcraft 2. what should i do to get better considering the level that i am at? give me 5 steps or tips or guidelines to start off with.

 

[Scar]

How have you been doing lately besides those three matches? Did it say slightly favored/even at the beginning of the match? Because you should never listen to that, it's unreliable.

that's more reliable than anything else as far as i know, it compares the secret rating of the two players (MMR? ELO?)

whenever i play someone i look at their profile and see what league they were in -- if it's saying even match or favored and they're in masters and i'm in diamond, that means the system is looking to promote me. and if i was in gold and i'm losing to silver or bronze i'd expect to be demoted.

 

[Zankoku]

1. Make workers
2. Make Supply Depots
3. Make Barracks
4. Research Stims
5. Make Marines

There.

 

[Omni]

lol, hilarious.

so i should practice my macro by going mass marine vs. Zerg?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

that's more reliable than anything else as far as i know, it compares the secret rating of the two players (MMR? ELO?)

whenever i play someone i look at their profile and see what league they were in -- if it's saying even match or favored and they're in masters and i'm in diamond, that means the system is looking to promote me. and if i was in gold and i'm losing to silver or bronze i'd expect to be demoted.

No I mean the 'even' or 'favored' that is shown at the beginning of the game (in the loading screen) is not as reliable as the one at the end of the game (at the score screen).

 

[Zankoku]

that's more reliable than anything else as far as i know, it compares the secret rating of the two players (MMR? ELO?)

whenever i play someone i look at their profile and see what league they were in -- if it's saying even match or favored and they're in masters and i'm in diamond, that means the system is looking to promote me. and if i was in gold and i'm losing to silver or bronze i'd expect to be demoted.

Actually, it doesn't do that. The going theory is that it compares your displayed points against the opponent's hidden MMR, since there have been multiple cases of both players seeing the opponent as "Favored." This is likely to push new teams of players who are already in the upper levels of leagues toward the correct displayed rating more quickly.

 

[Nasty_Nate]

Omni the mid/late game depends entirely on what they are doing! I can only tell you openers. Your "plan" should be to build the right unit counter. Unit counters are fairly obvious

The simplest macro builds (not harass based) are 1 rax FE and 2 rax FE. These are what you should be practicing most, to get better at the builds (FE builds are usually the strongest in the game), and to get better at macro. While your orbital command is making u wanna get 2 bunkers on the lowground to defend your exp. From there rally your units down and start saturating.

Again the timing for all of the things below depends ENTIRELY on your opponent. Literally can't give you better advice unless you tell me what they are doing. Even then unit counters should be obvious (even though people on here ask the same damn questions all the time)

Anyways after that my general TvZ plan is this:
-Have at least 2+ raxes when expo finishes.
-Get stim asap. Make lotsa rines. Throw in mauraders if u spot banes. IMPORTANT! HOTKEY YOUR RINES ON A SEPERATE KEY! (I use 1 for bio army, 2 for tanks, 3 for rines) Stim 1, then switch to 3, and run back. Make sure tanks are ready before banes hit.
-Get tanks. They are good against every Z unit cept fliers. If there are lotsa muta coming get a thor earlier. Build approx. 2 turrets at each mineral line (at least)
-Get medivacs. If I have some leeway (aka I dont need medivacs asap yet) I like making 2 kings and ovie huntin.
-Upgrade and get a third

Thats about it basically. Yes I do believe terran is hardest to macro since u need the right number of individual buildings/addons. Some example of correct(ish) building numbers per SATURATED base are:
-1 base: 2 rax 1 fact 1 starport (no reactors) / 4 rax
-2 base: 4 rax 2 fact 1 starport /
-3 base: 6 rax 3 fact 2 starport

 

[Nashun]

if you're lower than high diamond/low masters you really need to be working on your macro and mechanics before you start asking for mid-late game strategies. that kind of advice really won't help you until you get your macro down, no lie.

theres no shortcut to being good. just gotta practice and get that handspeed down. it'll improve your game much more and MUCH faster than building the right things inefficiently.

 

[Omni]

Thanks, Nashun. That's really specific. So the best way to practice macro'ing is doing FE's. In that case I'll continue to do my 5 marine/2 scv push into FE that Ankoku suggested. Just gotta keep practicing it.

I'll record replays

 

[Nashun]

If you can do that attack while keeping up your macro and expanding at the right time then you should be gravy! thats around the handspeed you need to keep up on your macro mid-late game.

 

[M@v]

Btw undefeated with my bc strat as long as i can get bcs out. And I only wasn't able to one time because I got proxy stargated. Didn't even have my starports up when I got slammed with a 3gate stargate.

So if you count that, im 6-1 vs toss with it.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Mav what is your BC strat? Sorry if I missed it earlier.

 

[Sion]

ankoku, for the next tournament (if it's even happening), my friend wants to join in
is it too late to sign up?

 

[Nashun]

ankoku, for the next tournament (if it's even happening), my friend wants to join in
is it too late to sign up?

These tournaments dont even finish =(

 

[Sion]

true

but it doesn't hurt to ask

..i think

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

thx for reminding me, i wanna change my race to terran for the next tourney

 

[Zankoku]

Whoops.

This tournament, and signups for the next one, ends on Thursday, April 14 (because I'll be gone all day on the 15th). Get to it.

List so far:
Kenrawr // KatyPerry.412
M@v // Mav.945
S.O.L.I.D. // Solid.414
Sveet // CrumbsMcGee.182
vrud // AllYourBase.445
Aoko // sion.925
Roman // fycROMAN.268
TheYoster // YellowYoster.807
Werekill // Werekill.779
Zone // Snafu.411
Cynan Machae // Cynan.623

Signup format is, again,
name.character code // race // least liked map

Potential map pool is
Crossfire SE (2 votes)
Terminus RE (3 votes)
Metalopolis
Typhon Peaks
Xel'Naga Caverns
Crevasse
Dual Sight (1 vote)
Xel'Naga Fortress (1 vote)
Tal'Darim Altar (2 votes)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Map question: Which taldarim altar are we using? The GSL edition or the LE?

 

[Nasty_Nate]

What do all those letters mean? Like LE, SE, etc

 

[Zone]

I'm not 100% sure i think it's ladder edition.

If i'm not wrong i believe That map was originally just GSL then blizzard picked it up and it was thus called "taldarim altar LE" cuz they changed it a bit.

correct me if i'm wrong.

 

[rhan]

LE = Ladder Edition
SE = Standard Edition (I believe)

 

[Zankoku]

We're using the GSL version.

As far as I can tell,
LE - Ladder Edition
SE - Second Edition
RE - Revised Edition

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Since i'm switching my races, i'd also like to change my ban from taldarim altar to xelnaga fortress.

 

[M@v]

Mav what is your BC strat? Sorry if I missed it earlier.

I'll need to get replays up if I can, but this is the general gist of it:

Open with a regular 1 rax or 2 rax fe. Then go into MM + cloaked banshee. I generally go with 2-3 rax and 2 starports. I generally start weapons upgrades as well. If Im under extreme pressure ill skip upgrades and go for more raxs or more starports. Play defensively and use your cloaked banshees +bunkers(and scv repair) to stay alive vs protoss aggression(I get stim too). Use the cloaked banshees to harass and keep his worker count down. I can see this working with MMM as well, but you would need more bunkers, and substitute the banshee harass with drops, but try to keep them alive.

Take a 3rd as soon as you safely can, get your fusion core. Start BC production on 3 starports. Get yamato researched, upgrades, and with any money left over use it for support units to help counter whatever the toss is doing(Example, hes going mass blink stalkers to fight the bcs, make marauders). Optionally, you can go with bcs off of two starports and get more supporting units.

I highly recommend going for a 4th base and beyond, but 3 is the minimum you need. It will allow you to produce bcs faster/get more supporting units.

But the main composition will be BCs, scvs to repair before critical mass, and whatever units you need to help counter his response to bcs. If your not sure, here's the best ones:

Stalker/void ray combo: Bcs yamato the void rays, and make mainly marauders. If he's going for a critical mass of void rays over stalkers, get marines instead.

High templar: If you have critical mass, he won't be able to do enough damage with scv repair. But if you have enough money, get ghosts. Ghost+BC destroys almost anything protoss has.

Carriers/mommaship: Respond the same way as voids.

 

[Cynan Machae]

Nashun when are you usually on?

 

[Nashun]

Wanna play? hit me up on aim at nashunprez or on b.net

 

[Fernandez]

what if he first storms your marines/scvs/marauders w/e and then moves in with stalker vr etc

 

[Nasty_Nate]

I think those units will take dmg

 

[Omni]

I'll be playing all evening after work.

vs. Terran: Marine/Siege/Viking macro'ing.
vs. Zerg: 2 Rax FE
vs. Protoss:

 

[Pakman]

Im in for this tournament. Pakman.484 // Terran // Typhon Peaks

 

[Omni]

Man, it'd be awesome if someone could save the replays and cast them.

 

[M@v]

what if he first storms your marines/scvs/marauders w/e and then moves in with stalker vr etc

.....Micro the stuff as soon as you see the storms? Also that means less feedback so save those yamatos for those void rays. It 1 shots them.

 

[Zankoku]

Battlecruisers are also pretty damn legit on their own, anyway.

 

[Omni]

what do you guys think about laddering?

i've gotten a few mixed advice from higher leveled players on whether or not i should be laddering or practicing/refining BO's (either on YABOT or Custom Games).

personally, i think laddering up would be best for me in regards to leveling up my macro vs. opponents who have macro close to my level.

 

[Nasty_Nate]

I think you should be mad at those higher leveled players because they must think your a bronze level noob

only reason to practice against non human opponents is if your extremely good and refining a build, or extremely bad (and learning what the units do/commands/etc)

Ladder

 

[Pakman]

I am always a proponent of learning by doing. I'd say ladder and analyze your replays to see what you could have done better. That analysis step imo is the key to getting better. Start paying attention to timings (stuff like 4 gate around 6 minutes or something relative to your build like baneling bust timing occuring after your 3rd rax or something similar).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Omni your dedication thus far has been inspiring. Start laddering and working hard, keep a positive attitude like you have been, and you will be masters in no time.

 

[Zankoku]

I still don't understand why anyone would actively discourage you from laddering, unless it was something like "wow play on your own until you figure out how to use hotkeys."

The only valid reason for not laddering at the current level you're at is because you're playing customs with a friend.