Starcraft 2 (Info on first post!)

[M@v]

Also, the game places you in a league that closest represents your current skill level. The game's "goal" is to make you have a 50:50 Win-loss ratio.

 

[Omni]

Question:

I'm looking for a really good Blue Flame Hellion opening. Mainly against Zerg, but I noticed there are a few that are pretty good against all races. What do you guys think is probably the most efficient Blue Flame Hellion build?

- Blue Flame Hellion (4) into single Medivac drop
- Blue Flame Hellion with extra Factory w/Reactor
- Other stuff

 

[Zankoku]

If you get the extra Factory, don't put a Reactor on it. Too slow.

 

[Omni]

I forgot to add the non-Blue Flame Hellion into Cloaked Banshees harass, too. That sounds really scary.

Man, all of those sound really good. I could either have.

4 early Blue Flames with 1 Medivac
6-8 early Blue Flames
4-5 reg Hellions into Cloaked Banshees

Which one of those is the most effective

 

[Zankoku]

4 blue flames + medivac transitions directly into cloaked banshees, so if pretty much the most ****-move harass possible is your thing, I'd go with that.

 

[ArcNatural]

I think for your level the 4 non blue flame hellion to banshee harass will be way more effective. It hits earlier, and most zergs are trying to macro up two bases. As long as you focus on getting the banshees out and hellion harass second it should mess them up enough to put them behind.

The problem with the blue flame 4 hellion is it takes a while to come out seems like it would give them time to get too far ahead, unless you harassed with non flame, didn't lose any, upgrade to blue flame whle making banshees and hitting their natural while bansheeing the main.

 

[Overswarm]

<3 the fact that all of Terran's cheese strategies are countered by "make queens"

 

[Omni]

I didn't know Blue Flame/Cloaked Banshee was a cheese. Sounds like solid harassment to me.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

except for the one where they make a bunch of tanks and MM

 

[Omni]

I think for your level the 4 non blue flame hellion to banshee harass will be way more effective. It hits earlier, and most zergs are trying to macro up two bases. As long as you focus on getting the banshees out and hellion harass second it should mess them up enough to put them behind.

The problem with the blue flame 4 hellion is it takes a while to come out seems like it would give them time to get too far ahead, unless you harassed with non flame, didn't lose any, upgrade to blue flame whle making banshees and hitting their natural while bansheeing the main.

I was wondering how that would work.

Like if my first initial blue flame died but they did good economic damage. Then I got out my cloaked banshee. I believe it's a timing push so I should be pushing out my banshee at a time where when I arrive at their base the cloak would be finishing. What does Zerg need in order to make a detector?

I'm guessing my plan would be:

1.) Harass expansion with Blue Flames. Do as much economical damage as possible.
2.) Follow up with 1(?) Banshee with cloak almost researched to his main mineral line.
3.) While that Banshee gets there queue up more Blue Flame Hellions and harass his second expansion again.

 

[Zankoku]

I didn't know Blue Flame/Cloaked Banshee was a cheese. Sounds like solid harassment to me.

Picking Terran is a cheese.

 

[Omni]

Cheese is good. Cheese drive you car.

10 Depot
12 Rax
13 Refinery
15 Orb
16 Marine
16 Refinery
16 Tech Lab
17 Depot
18 Factory 150 min/100 gas (Lift off Barracks and build on leftover Tech Lab. Make Tech Lab on Barracks.)
19 Depot
21 Hellion (Pump until 4)
23 Blue Flame
24 Starport (Lift off Barracks and build on leftover Tech Lab. Do w/e with Barracks.)
27 Depot

Then when the Starport completes I can either:

- Build a Medivac (for a drop)
- Build a Banshee/Research Cloack

Anything off with this?

 

[Lobos]

I'm super late but...

Due to lack of appreciation by players, the Mothership has been surgically altered to be sleeker and more visually appealing, and has been renamed to the Cougarship. The Cougarship will automatically gravitate toward enemy units that have been in play for 18-21 minutes and attempt to bring them back to the nearest friendly base.

lol at this one

 

[Pakman]

If you do the blue flame hellion thing you have to scout for the roach rush. Roaches counter hellions and marines (sort of) and some zerg players like to rush roaches.

I did a hellion rush against a dude who was making fast banelings the other day. He didn't even have ling speed yet. I killed like 8 banes and 8 lings with 6 hellions only losing 2. He insta GG'ed .

I generally don't transition to banshee, however. Zergs tend to get mutas versus terran especially when they see hellion tech. After hellions harrass I generally go marine tank hellion. I usually get another fact with a reactor and if I scout the spire I get another fact with a tech lab and an armory for thors and get an e-bay with some turrets.

 

[rhan]

If you get the extra Factory, don't put a Reactor on it. Too slow.

Usually if you're going to go for a Helion kind of harass opening you're already suppose to have a reactor down from your Barracks. Then take your Fact and replace it with the Racks and start harassing with the first two Helions (Also could be used for scouting) while having the racks make a tech lab and having another factory in the making so that could be switched with the extra fact for the blue flame. Then the transition can be into Banshees, Tank/Rine, MM, etc. it's just a variant of the 111.

 

[Pakman]

[YT]0mPGYeuU2Oc[/yt]

 

[Omni]

Usually if you're going to go for a Helion kind of harass opening you're already suppose to have a reactor down from your Barracks. Then take your Fact and replace it with the Racks and start harassing with the first two Helions (Also could be used for scouting) while having the racks make a tech lab and having another factory in the making so that could be switched with the extra fact for the blue flame. Then the transition can be into Banshees, Tank/Rine, MM, etc. it's just a variant of the 111.

True, but I'm trying to open up with Blue Flame Hellions as opposed to faster red flame Hellions. So it would be a tech lab on the rax so that I can research Blue Flame as early as possible.

Pretty much subsituting having more red flame Hellions over having less amount of Blue Flame hellions. And probably sacrificing more time since I'm sure red flame Hellions with reactor will be able to harass much earlier than Blue Flame. The fact that BF Hellions can two shot workers tho' makes me **** in my pants and I can't resist the temptation.

Also, making two factories severely delays the first banshee coming out as early as possible with cloak preferably way before a Spire is even thought about coming up. Although, two factories would come into play if I transitioned into all mech (which I'm assuming would be the best choice).

In my mind, this is what I hope I'll be thinking.

- Blue Flames. Lets get emz.
- Blue Flames get. Lets fry em. Preferably their expansion.
- Fry as long and hard as you can. While frying, get that Banshee and Cloak.
- Got Banshee and Cloak. Rally to main mineral line. Maybe build a second if 1st harassment went well.
- If that looks like that'll go well get another batch of Blue Flames and attack the expansion again while the banshee's harass the main.

If the game isn't over at that point my goal is to transition into a mech heavy army of Tanks/Thors/....idk, more Hellions I guess. I have no idea how to handle a mech army. Still trying to handle bio well. Once I build up a really good size mech army I'd take out the rocks for my 2nd expansion for the Gold (if there is one) and just prepare to expand again while I push out to eliminate any 3rd Hatcheries.

 

[M@v]

I'm ready to give up on terran until they come out with new patches fixing things. The only reason I want to stick around is because im ~100 wins from my thor pic D:

 

[Omni]

no john s

 

[M@v]

No seriously. I'm either going to switch to toss or cheese protoss players until i get my thor pic.

I might as well get it since im close.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

why dont you try to learn the matchup better or improve your mechanics? A patch would only solve your issues temporarily.

 

[Omni]

then they'll nerf toss and you'll stop playing until they rebuff toss or switch back to terran

it's a scrubby cycle, mav

 

[Cynan Machae]

Nate I'll be on from now to around 7 EST and then from 11 EST. And pretty much any time tomorrow.

I've seen you all day but not answering

 

[rhan]

then they'll nerf toss and you'll stop playing until they rebuff toss or switch back to terran

it's a scrubby cycle, mav

There's nothing wrong with moving on to something better.

 

[M@v]

I have tried just about everything. The only thing I think would help me now is better APM so I can micro way better. And I can't move my fingers that fast to do it.

I want to play terran, I really do. But something's wrong when you go 50:50 vs T and Z, and like 10:90 vs toss.

I don't mind TvT and TvZ one bit. Not that I play many TvTs anymore because most in diamond has already jumped of the sinking ship that's terran.

 

[Zankoku]

That's to say nothing of Zerg, which saw a grand total of IdrA in terms of top 8 representation at MLG. :3

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

TvP is 50:50. Ghosts and Vikings are legit tactical and engaging counters to protoss's spell casters and collosi.

 

[Zone]

There is so much unexplored stuff and unit compositions, only reason you see alot of the same stuff is because people tend to copy the GSL or other high caliber tourneys playstyled and strategies, I'd like to see a little more raven in tvp mixed in with mech with some marine support. Does seeker missile Hurt your own people?

 

[Zankoku]

Yes, yes it does. Often to hilarious effect.

 

[M@v]

Ravens help against stalkers, but the big issue is once colossi are out marines are almost rendered useless because they melt so fast to colossi. And that's a problem because they are one of our best dps dealers.

(fun tip thor's ground attack has the highest dps against a single target in the game)

 

[Zone]

Ravens help against stalkers, but the big issue is once colossi are out marines are almost rendered useless because they melt so fast to colossi. And that's a problem because they are one of our best dps dealers.

(fun tip thor's ground attack has the highest dps against a single target in the game)

don't Thors do good against Colossus with their attack upgrade thingy. Sorry i don't know the name lol Zerg main here. (Strike cannons?)

when I say marine back up, I mean just a few to help against any possible voidrays on the field and zealots. cuz hellions only do real good imo when they can retreat shoot. which they can't do if they are protecting tanks lol.

 

[Zankoku]

I'd totally be up for taking a dozen losses in TvP just so I can figure out a consistently good way to tech to Battlecruisers.

 

[Zone]

I'd totally be up for taking a dozen losses in TvP just so I can figure out a consistently good way to tech to Battlecruisers.

i can imagine that being difficult considering I don't think most people do air attack and armor upgrades much lol as terran. I see the air upgrade sometimes in TvP for vikings vs colossus/pheonix.

EDIT: mind you i know that is only one of many reasons why I can see that being hard.

 

[M@v]

Colossi outrange or same range the strike cannons. But when they have colossi they have other units in your face. Thors cannons work best against immortals(1 shot them, and stun them in the process).

Your essentially take your thor and his immortal out of the fight for a few seconds, and the thor comes back.


PS. I'd love how to find out too ankoku. I feel the BC is the only unit terran has vs toss that makes our army feel as good as their deathball. Toss really cant do much about a critical mass bc ball with yamato, just like we cant do much about colossi balls. Problem is they get their colossi ball and attack us quicker than we get bcs.

 

[Zone]

I dunno, I see alot of Terrans beating colossus balls all the time in tournament. i was under the impression colossus were pretty balanced in the sense of TvP.

 

[Nasty_Nate]

There is so much unexplored stuff and unit compositions, only reason you see alot of the same stuff is because people tend to copy the GSL or other high caliber tourneys playstyled and strategies, I'd like to see a little more raven in tvp mixed in with mech with some marine support. Does seeker missile Hurt your own people?

This is very wrong. The GSL reflects the metagame. The metagame is made by the best players trying out different strats and learning the most effective ones.

Although people do copy builds from the GSL, its because they are copying good builds for the current metagame. You see alot of the same stuff because thats how the current metagame is. If you can change the metagame and come up with better unit compositions, more power to you, but if you could do that then you should be playing in the GSL and not posting on noob world forums.

In other words, if there are better unit compositions, you can probably assume a GSL quality player will learn it first, since they are the best at this game.

 

[Zone]

This is very wrong. The GSL reflects the metagame. The metagame is made by trying out different strats and learning the most effective ones.

Although people do copy builds from the GSL, its because they are copying good builds for the current metagame. You see alot of the same stuff because thats how the current metagame is. If you can change the metagame and come up with better unit compositions, more power to you, but if you could do that then you should be playing in the GSL and not posting on noob world forums.

In other words, if there are better unit compositions, you can probably assume a GSL quality player will learn it first, since they are the best at this game.

EDIT: Bolded what I was getting at.

oh is that so? then why do we keep seeing new stuff in GSL? If we already found everything and are using the most effective effecient ones?

I just think the metagame could advance a little faster if people didn't settle for what kinda works, for something that could possibly dominate a army composition.

Just to clarify when I say "people" I mean high caliber players. Jinro when mech against ogsmc and did really well. When the current "metagame" was bio ball almost everytime against toss.

I don't mean me and you should go out and test out new strategies. Cuz frankly I don't have the technical skill to execute it perfectly like GSL players can, to test it properly. I could come up ideas to try. But I would be incapable of perfectly executing it. Where seconds of execution can mean win/loss

 

[Nasty_Nate]

Im saying that your wrong in assuming you always see the same strats because its in the GSL. Unless its something super specific you most likely always see them because they are good strats. 4gate is part of the game and will always be an important strat in the game, not because GSL does it, because its good.

And I never said the metagame doesnt evolve.

 

[Sion]

ggs zone

that was a nice proxy expo last game

 

[Zone]

Im saying that your wrong in assuming you always see the same strats because its in the GSL. Unless its something super specific you most likely always see them because they are good strats. 4gate is part of the game and will always be an important strat in the game, not because GSL does it, because its good.

And I never said the metagame doesnt evolve.

I didn't say "ALWAYS" but I guess the word "only" is close enough.

dude your blowing up what I ment out of proportion.

when I watch GSL(NEW STUFF), Then proceed to play my games. within the next 2 weeks they are being executed against me.

do you know how many times I was all-in'd before MarineKingPrime Grand finals/ Bitbybit/ Other SCVmarine all ins vs Zerg FE build. Almost zero. I was pressured alot of course.

after that "all in" fad came into the GSL. People all-inned me almost every other game. (I'm not saying people didn't SCV all in before this, but I promise you GSL made it way more popular)

and now i'm seeing ALOT of protoss players, and their 8 sentries expand, 2 base hard force field pushes. Just cuz of OGSMC's success. Yes it's a really good tool to have on your belt. But Some people are getting satisfied with just that.

I'm just saying I want to experience more build variety... not 4gate/ Void ray rush/ 2 base colossus every game.

EDIT: Frankly I'm sick and tired of almost every terran only going pure bio.

Double Edit: come on man, you can't tell me there isn't enough exploring going on with people? same for SSBM marth's Metagame. Every person I played back in the day was playing like Ken. While M2k was creating new stuff. Thus M2k created a pimp marth, cuz he explored more rather than be satsified with how marth currently played. Just cuz it works doesn't mean it can't work BETTER.

ggs zone

that was a nice proxy expo last game

lol that's my Ace up my sleeve. Question did you tink I was doing a roach all in? I was hoping you were thinking I was >.>.