Stage Information Database and Q&A

[sunshade]

Depth is not subjective but the analysis of how much depth something has cannot be done objectively. If your goal is to create effectivly different scenarios I would consider playing basic stages and focusing on the fundamentals of gameplay to be more depth yielding than having multiple stages and reducing the focus on fundamentals.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't think it is that hard to analyze that Pokemon Stadium 2 has greater depth than Temple, or as a closer to home example: That Delfino Plaza has greater depth than Battlefield. Of course it isn't completely objective, that's why I said "slightly subjective" in my first post on the subject. It's subjective in the same sense that **** tasting good is subjective.

Erm... Having more stages doesn't somehow detract from the fundamental skills that are important on the more neutral, static stages. It keeps the depth of those stages and adds more, there is no correlation between "having muliple stages" and "reducing the focus on fundamentals".

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

http://gametheorybootcamp.blogspot.com/2010/12/arguing-against-subjectivity-crafting.html

 

[Orion*]

I don't think it is that hard to analyze that Pokemon Stadium 2 has greater depth than Temple, or as a closer to home example: That Delfino Plaza has greater depth than Battlefield. Of course it isn't completely objective, that's why I said "slightly subjective" in my first post on the subject. It's subjective in the same sense that **** tasting good is subjective.

Erm... Having more stages doesn't somehow detract from the fundamental skills that are important on the more neutral, static stages. It keeps the depth of those stages and adds more, there is no correlation between "having muliple stages" and "reducing the focus on fundamentals".

Coming from someone who has counterpicked delfino since 2008 with a lot of success and literally loves the stage to death-

it is NOT deep. Its literally just camp/shark rofl. You may have to know more "gimmicks" or whatever than battlefield, but thats not depth.

There's more depth in actually fighting your opponent

 

[Blacknight99923]

the stage that has the most current depth is smashville because the metagame is based on it.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

What? No, that's faulty logic. There's no connection between the two. The fact that Smashville is seen is such high regards is, IMO, a little shocking. SV is good, but not half as deep as PS1, PS2, or CS, and definitely less balanced.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Coming from someone who has counterpicked delfino since 2008 with a lot of success and literally loves the stage to death-

it is NOT deep. Its literally just camp/shark rofl. You may have to know more "gimmicks" or whatever than battlefield, but thats not depth.

There's more depth in actually fighting your opponent

You realize that Meta Knight isn't in every single match, right?

And also that there are parts of the stage where, *gasp*, you can't shark!?

 

[Blacknight99923]

You realize that Meta Knight isn't in every single match, right?

And also that there are parts of the stage where, *gasp*, you can't shark!?

gasp did you no that a lot of those parts have WALLS that you cannot safely approuch???????

 

[Grim Tuesday]

lol @ approaching in Brawl

 

[Tesh]

Most of the parts of Delfino has some silly little spot behind a wall where you can avoid 90% of projectiles and shloop anybody that tries to approach from above. Then you are left with the little beach island and the FD dipped in water area if you wanna deal with MK somewhat.

 

[Blacknight99923]

if one player camps... and has the lead....the other HAS to approuch.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Most of the parts of Delfino has some silly little spot behind a wall where you can avoid 90% of projectiles and shloop anybody that tries to approach from above. Then you are left with the little beach island and the FD dipped in water area if you wanna deal with MK somewhat.

Meta Knight isn't even close to untouchable when camping behind walls, that's ridiculous.

if one player camps... and has the lead....the other HAS to approuch.

*Sigh* It was a joke.

 

[Tesh]

Its not about being close to untouchable. Sure you can get to him, but what are you gonna do approaching him from above? I may have made it seem simple, but you still have to deal with uair, nair and any number of evasive manuevers while you approach from the worst position against MK. Its like planking except he can shield too.

Lets also not forget walkoff camping, the tactic that many stages were banned for. Delfino really just transfers between sharking, walkoff camping, fin camping and super low ceilings.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Meta Knight isn't even close to untouchable when camping behind walls, that's ridiculous.



*Sigh* It was a joke.

you tried to legalize mario bros, I'm skeptic about how often your kidding about somethings

secondly, can you hit metaknight, YES, is it a favorable risk reward? no

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Super low ceilings aren't an issue, not sure why you brought it up, Tesh.

None of those things you mentioned are permanent, which stops them from being broken.

You have to admit, there might be very little depth in strategy for the MK player there, but there will be a hell of a lot for... I don't know, EVERY OTHER CHARACTER IN THE GAME.

Mario Bros. was legit at the time I made the topic, people should stop trying to use that against me.

 

[WindMajor]

I could still argue that it's legit if I really felt like it.

Oooooh the good ol' days....

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I agree with Twinkie.

 

[WindMajor]

I just wish Ryu wasn't forced to lock it so I could style on that thread some more.

 

[Tesh]

You could say the super low ceiling isn't an issue sure. I'm just outlining how the stage transitions from "advantage to mk" to "advantage to mk" to "another advantage to mk". The low ceiling part is just a bunch of ledges with little platforms that MK can pressure you off of. He can basically plank and if u get hit by uair you die at 100% or less from shuttle loop.

I'm not saying Delfino is broken, but no one else really gets that kind of advantage from it. Other good sharking characters don't perform as well on the other parts of the stage.

 

[sunshade]

Lets just all agree that 9 times out of 10 metaknight is the issue not the stage.

 

[Blacknight99923]

DK and ness both like delphino as well as they can get easy spikes on the water. It wouldn't suprise me if ike also was a fun of delphino with his wall CGs and spikes or ect.


I could be wrong on all accounts however

 

[Orion*]

You realize that Meta Knight isn't in every single match, right?

And also that there are parts of the stage where, *gasp*, you can't shark!?

At the first part- In a tournament match if someone picks delfino- 99 times out of a hundred SOMEBODY is going metaknight ROFL.

On the the second part, its called you run away? It's pretty easy unless it's high level play to really spam random defensive options and then run the clock lol.

Meta Knight isn't even close to untouchable when camping behind walls, that's ridiculous.

Yes but approaching him is significantly harder because it's like you are Always being juggled.

*Sigh* It was a joke.

There was absolutely NO way- especially through the internet and your reputation of being ridiculous to know that was a joke, not even an emote.
Also, it really wasn't funny.

I could still argue that it's legit if I really felt like it.

Being able to argue for something, and telling if something is actually correct are two completely different skills.

Lets just all agree that 9 times out of 10 metaknight is the issue not the stage.

I don't even think mk on delfino is as bad as I let him off to be, I just feel that it's not "depth"

edit: I really feel like the players who argue that more stages is more depth really haven't reached a level of play where they realize that- once you know all the gimmicks and you know everything about your character and it just comes down to reads, that it essentially many times (depends on the degree of the stage) lowers down gameplay into an even simpler form.. Much less fighting occurs- or if it does it essentially revolves around abusing a single option.

Not to say we should have less cps, or no cps, or all stages legal- but I just kind of want to make the point because I really don't see any of you understanding why lol.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I agree mk on delphino isn't really that over the top, its just bland

 

[WindMajor]

So I just realized that someone might actually agree with the points that I would make in that future thread of mine. Makes me feel like writing it, so I think I might make it, and post it after a couple of drafts.

On an unrelated note: I hate doing group projects.

 

[MK26]

I asked Sirlin and he thinks it's a "borderline" case.

hu h?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Explaining what you don't understand, rather than just going "huh?", would make it much easier for me to reply.

 

[MK26]

i shouldve been more specific <_<

i would appreciate a greater breadth of detail on the topic of questioning mr. sirlin vis-a-vis the potential banworthiness of a certain winged tit that appears to be plaguing our metagame.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Hello, I am aware of the situation somewhat, but even with your explanations, I don't think I know enough for my opinion to give much weight. And if you tell my opinion to others, then you should include that I give it only weakly, and don't feel I know enough to say with any confidence.

Banning is a last resort, and should only be done for the reason of "too powerful" if you are damn sure. 99% of things claimed to be too powerful turn out not to be. The evidence suggests that Metaknight is in the other 1%. Further, the ledge grab limit situation is a horrible one, where some subjective (not discrete) rule is needed to just to allow the character.

Players shouldn't be put in a situation where they must keep track that they have done 24 ledge grabs that round, or something. That problem also points to banning, because at least "don't pick metaknight" is discrete.

Another problem is that banning a too-powerful thing does not even guarantee a better game. Perhaps some other character (Snake?) is just as dominating over the rest, and would have no Metaknight to keep him in check. I would guess that this isn't the case though, and that the game would be better without Metaknight. You would know the answer to this more than me.

If this one character is really destroying the competitive scene, then it is ok to do something about it. Just be sure about it.
--Sirlin

 

[WindMajor]

Can you put up the explanation that you sent him so we have some sort of idea as to what he was working with?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I didn't save a copy, I'm afraid

I pretty much said:

• He has one universally banned technique (EDC).
• He has one commonly banned technique (planking).
• He has no bad match-ups.
• Some of the facts about his tournament success and popularity, taken from here.
• Mentioned that he doesn't dominate the whole cast, doesn't always win and has a few close-to-even match-ups.

That was it I think, Ghostbone co-wrote it with me, so he might be able to think of something else.

 

[Tesh]

Is this place safe to talk about MK banning? The resistance lives on!?

 

[WindMajor]

Not in SWF sadly.

 

[Ghostbone]

Well the BBR said they're going to discuss MK again soon. (probably after they release the match-up chart)
And it's been like a year since the last discussion hasn't it?

As long as the discussion stays civil I don't see why we shouldn't be allowed to.....

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The reason we don't let them discuss it is because people can't be civil about it, at least from past experience as the other older ans wiser mods have told me.

It's why Brawl vs Melee is generally frowned upon and usually locked on site.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Is there a list of ceiling heights? Especially for stages that seem to change drastically, like Delfino and Halberd?

 

[sunshade]

Is there a list of ceiling heights? Especially for stages that seem to change drastically, like Delfino and Halberd?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=156908&highlight=project+kill

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

**** it. Just. ****. It.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=298473

Not even ****ing worth it. Axl may burn in hell.

 

[WindMajor]

It's not like the international players had time to learn the stages anyways.

 

[smashmanx7]

i think their should be a stage from epicyarn that game had brilliant creativity and nostalgia

 

[Tesh]

It's not like the international players had time to learn the stages anyways.

Yea I don't get this. Why would we adapt our rules to them when they have 11 months to learn every stage inside and out? I'm glad to see Pictochat gone though.

At least they will have to learn SOME stages.

I don't see Japan adding in hard CPs for SunRise Tournament.