Stage Information Database and Q&A

[Tesh]

Not going to address that the same thing happens on Smashville?

 

[Yikarur]

lol
ICs = permanent threat
Claw = threat of a few seconds, with preperation and one time in a very short time window only

your analogy is terrible and flawed.

 

[infiniteV115]

DRE
Y U NO READ MY POST

I thought I addressed the ICs-claw analogy appropriately.

 

[WindMajor]

The army example doesn't work because it's not a question of who has the better soldiers.

My last sentence in my last post.

In Smash tournaments, we're not finding the best player, we're finding the player that's most able to win. It's just like war.

You cannot measure accurately who is the better player in a tournament setting, because every person goes through a different route to reach the top. Not everybody gets the opportunity to test the same skills as each other. More importantly, we cannot accurately measure who is the better player because that is subjective, and tournaments work objectively. Since we cannot measure skill accurately directly, what we have to do is measure our skill through our ability to win. In other words, all you need are wins to continue through the bracket. That's all that matters, the win. You get wins by using your skills to perform in a way that lets you emerge as victorious. There is no panel of judges that will say, "Oh, but Ghostbone SD'd against Grim at 0% and it was still a last hit match, Ghostbone should win, so we are declaring him the winner!". No, it's not like that. Ghostbone SD'd, and that's his problem. He might have been the better player, but he wasn't able to win because he made mistakes. The tournament doesn't care that he was the better, the tournament only cares about Grim being the winner, so they can move him up bracket.

Or what about all those sets that are literally so close, that the players are practically evenly matched (as observed by the viewers). Are we gonna allow for a draw? Are we going to let both players advance? No, because being the better player doesn't matter. It's all about who wins!

Just like in war.

 

[Akaku94]

If neither of you is using the stage to your advantage as per the example, than you're both playing at a lower level than you should. As with the tier list or the ruleset, this is designed for the highest level of play. At high levels of play, players will use any advantage they can get short of cheating, and knowing the stage better than your opponent is a strong advantage. If neither you nor your opponent sought that advantage, than any misfortune that befalls you as a result is self-inflicted. We're not rewarding the other player based on randomness, or even based on his knowledge of the stage so much as we're punishing you for not knowing the stage. As a player, it is your OBLIGATION to know the stage you're playing on!

What defines "pure fighting" in Brawl? FD? SV? Temple? You're alluding to this idea of "pure fighting" but you can't define what that is! See this thread.

In the martial arts example, you just proved why items are banned. In the case of stages, imagine the Martial artists being placed in different arenas with different terrain and layouts (for example, a room filled with lava and rock platforms in it, or a tiny platform a hundred feet in the air). If one martial artist was able to knock the other one into the lava or off the platform, then they were the better fighter, regardless of what may have happened in a boxing ring or a cagefight.

Everyone ignored this the first time around... now to add a little to it:

Yes there is negligence on his part but the reward is heavily imbalanced. Seeing as he's been dominating the other fighter the enitre time, the other fighter has made plenty of mistakes, but because the trapdoor wasn't open then he didn't lose the fight. The dominate fighter makes one mistake of a similar calibur (or perhaps of an even smaller calibur considering a jab, or a grab in brawl isn't too hard to land) and gets punished with losing the fight. It doesn't seem like a fair reflection on who the better fighter was, considering that the dominate fighter would have landed multiple jabs on the lesser one, he was just unlucky the trapdoor wasn't open at those times.

The second fighter was better in this case. The second player knew that the trapdoor would open, and so he was ready to capitalize on it when it came. If the first player had used the stage equally well (planning for the trapdoor, trying to keep his opponent near the trapdoor, avoiding the trapdoor to avoid being caught off-guard, etc.), he would have won if he were the better player. However, the point of the fight was to test who was the better fighter in the arena with the trapdoor, and the second player was proven to be so, regardless of who may have won under different circumstances.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I could only think of action movies where the good guy gets all beaten up by the last boss (the one bad guy), and wins by using a random element on the fight scene.
Did the bad guy deserve to win? Probably (there are many times where I root for the bad guys ;o; ).
But in the end, who won? The other guy that used that element on his advantage. And that is what matters.

 

[Tesh]

I'm dying reading all of this. Please do go on.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Let's take a break from this whole discussion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEcPe-PJ4CE

 

[WindMajor]

Pro Tools is a really cool program, and I like it a lot, but it's really ****ing difficult to get the sound you want.

 

[Dre89]

Tesh- The same thing doesn't happen on Smashville. The opponent doesn't get a huge reward aided by the stage for landing a regular move like a jab or a grab.


Xivi's new friend- I never said we'd ever be able to have a ruleset that always produces a win for the best player, but I think mine gives a higher chance.

Yikarur- So you think that if you were versing an ICs, and throughout the match I gave you a random 5 second period where you had to avoid getting grabbed, otherwise you'd lose the stock, you'd be able to avoid the grab every time?

If you don't think you could, then the same applies for when the claw strikes.

If you think you could avoid for any 5 second period, you should be able to never get grabbed then.

Akaku- You're assuming that the opponent actually planned to use the stage, or baited the better fighter into it. When I got clawed on Halberd out of a grab, that wasn't my opponent's intention. That's exactly the problem, my opponent unintentionally got a disproportionate, undeserved reward for doing something I did multiple times to him, yet never got the same reward for.

Kyokoro- In that case, we might as well play with items, or simply cheat to win. "Did he deserve to win, probably not, but he did, so that's what matters".

 

[Tesh]

Platform cancelling doesn't aid you? I know I've seen players like Mikehaze and Mr R grab release people into regrabs which can then result in things like Fsmash/Upsmash because of the platform moving.

So many horrible things can happen because of that platform all because you don't pay attention to it.

 

[Akaku94]

Akaku- You're assuming that the opponent actually planned to use the stage, or baited the better fighter into it. When I got clawed on Halberd out of a grab, that wasn't my opponent's intention. That's exactly the problem, my opponent unintentionally got a disproportionate, undeserved reward for doing something I did multiple times to him, yet never got the same reward for.

I'm not assuming that he did, but I am pointing out that both fighters knew beforehand that the trapdoor would open. As such, whatever happened to one person was a result of not planning ahead and knowing the stage well enough. It would not be hard to avoid the trapdoor if you really were the better fighter; the fact that your opponent was able to take advantage of the stage (even unintentionally) shows that you did not know the stage well enough.

Also, for the ICs example, you don't have 5 second periods where you have to avoid being grabbed; you have an 8-minute period to avoid being grabbed! If you can play against the ICs reasonably well, avoiding Halberd's hazards is laughably easy; just don't get grabbed. It's that simple. If your opponent grabs you while the claw is warming up, you can't expect me to believe that he has no intention of getting you hit by the claw; even most casual players understand how to use hazards to your advantage.

 

[-LzR-]

Halberds hazards are so easily avoidable. I would ban YI before Halberd just because of it's luck factor.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Wow this thread's gone downhill.

 

[WindMajor]

I wanna know what you guys have been up to lately.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I decided to do parkour at the start of summer, so I've been doing that.

Other than that, practicing smash and 9gag have taken up all my time lol

Oh, and I'm re-watching Death Note so I can catch up to where my friend is up to and watch it with him.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I wanna know what you guys have been up to lately.

Planning on hosting a tournament with ridiculous stages like Big Blue.

Spoiler

It's Brawl Minus though

 

[WindMajor]

I decided to do parkour at the start of summer, so I've been doing that.

Other than that, practicing smash and 9gag have taken up all my time lol

Oh, and I'm re-watching Death Note so I can catch up to where my friend is up to and watch it with him.

I wish I was still in shape so I could do more outdoor activities. Back when I was in 9th and 10th grade (around 5-6 years ago), I used to be really fit because I would skate a lot, and I had really good physical education classes, but then I switched high schools, and majored something that requires me to sit in front of a computer screen for hours. :/

Planning on hosting a tournament with ridiculous stages like Big Blue.

Spoiler

It's Brawl Minus though

I was so hyped until I read that spoiler.

Spoiler

Then I was really hyped! (troll)

 

[ぱみゅ]

I hosted a tournament last saturday.
It was awful.
Only 8 people showed off
I had since October without playing a real opponent, and ended up playing terribly with Marth, getting unconfident with Zamus and plain losing with Dedede.

A guy got a blackhorse 2nd place, that was nice.
Also we flossed with the unity-13 again. Sadly, 70% of the matches ended on Final Destination (?)

We'll have another one by march 3rd, but until then...
On the good side, I'll add more stages.

 

[-LzR-]

I wish I had done something awesome I could tell you about =/

 

[Dre89]

I'm willing to drop my argument but stuff like this just annoys me-

Halberds hazards are so easily avoidable. I would ban YI before Halberd just because of it's luck factor.

It's as if you haven't read every other post I made which addressed this comment from other posters.

It's easy to avoid if you don't have an opponent to worry about. Getting grabbed or hit aren't easily avoidable, which is what the problem was.

 

[-LzR-]

If you can grab your opponent just before the hazards, it means you are good and deserve to get the extra damage.

 

[Akaku94]

Planning on hosting a tournament with ridiculous stages like Big Blue.

Spoiler

It's Brawl Minus though

75m- and Norfair- ftw

 

[WindMajor]

I'm willing to drop my argument but stuff like this just annoys me-



It's as if you haven't read every other post I made which addressed this comment from other posters.

It's easy to avoid if you don't have an opponent to worry about. Getting grabbed or hit aren't easily avoidable, which is what the problem was.

Your issue was that it was unfair to get hit by the hazard, not that it was difficult. It doesn't even matter though because either way, the result is still the same: It's a natural part of the game, so we should just suck it up and deal with it.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

I feel like getting hit by the claw after getting grabbed is just like getting grabbed by ddd on smallville's platform our getting grabbed near an edge or under a platform. Every grab is effected by the location in respect to the stage. We are merely arguing what degree of effect is ok.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Did you know that items set to OFF, no matter the frequency they are at, you won't get any? Not even from DDD's Toss.
Maybe I've just been lucky, I'll keep on testing.

 

[Akaku94]

I think Peach still pulls Swords/bombs with items off... just like how Diddy can still pull bananas

 

[Raziek]

I think Peach still pulls Swords/bombs with items off... just like how Diddy can still pull bananas

This is correct, Nicole pulled a Beamsword in one of the MM's I watched at a recent tourney.

Dedede can't throw capsules with items off, but Peach can still pull a Beamsword, Bob-omb, or Mr. Saturn.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Guys... this should be common knowledge...

Peach can always pull items, no matter the conditions.
Dedede can only throw items when the they are "on".

 

[ぱみゅ]

I was just pointing out that nothing happens if items are set to either "none", "low", "mid" or "high", as long as none is actually activated.

 

[Ghostbone]

Peach can most definitely pull beam swords :D

Also technically her beam sword and bob-omb are different from the actual item.

 

[-LzR-]

When thrown they become normal again though.

 

[Life]

It's apparently not possible to catch a Peach Bob-omb though.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

It's apparently not possible to catch a Peach Bob-omb though.

lol yes it is.

 

[Life]

's what I heard anyway. *shrug*

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I'm fairly certain I've caught one before, that's all.

 

[Life]

I don't think I've ever had to deal with a Peach holding a Bob-omb, and if I did the last thing I'd try to do is catch the darn thing. I'm just repeating what I've heard.

I do like to catch turnips and glide toss them at her, because Sonic's glide toss goes like a mile and a half so you can get away with it sometimes. But eh.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't think I've ever had to deal with a Peach holding a Bob-omb

You clearly don't play against Ghostbone enough.

He pulled a Beam Sword, a Bob-omb, a stich-face turnip, a Beam Sword and two Mr. Saturns in the last match of our set today.

>_______>

 

[infiniteV115]

Can the Halberd claw really kill at 60ish?

Cause pretty much all of Dre's argument revolves around the fact that it's an unnaturally high reward, but I don't think it has ever killed me :\

 

[Akaku94]

But what defines "unnaturally high?"