Stage Discussion Round #1: Yoshi's Island

[Tero.]

I'm going to change things a bit.
I have to agree FD/BF/SV discussion are stupid, I just started them for the sake of completeness, but because some people just can't shut up we'll stop them.

But I do think we need a discussion on Yoshi's Island because that stage is not considered as neutral in the french ruleset.

YI discussion go!

 

[-Jumpman-]

Neutral stage. Normal edges, platform that doesn't move a lot. Almost straight surface. Fly guys don't influence much either.

 

[K@0S]

Yoshi's Island is a counterpick in France. Some randomness (shy guys and stupid random saves when you deserves to get spiked), strange platform (that's not the best argument I agree), a non-horizontal ground and the fact that you can "fast land" on the right ledge with some characters (and the Ike's up-b bug when you shield it but it doesn't count ) are the reasons why we thought that it shouldn't be a starter.

 

[Marcbri]

Neutral stage. Normal edges, platform that doesn't move a lot. Almost straight surface. Fly guys don't influence much either.

This.

there are some things that can happen here that don't make it a 100% starter though. the wall can stop some upbs like zelda's, the platform can save more times than expected ( once vs Greward's olimar he was saved 3 times in the same match when he had already used the upb and was falling to his death. the platform just appeared there xD) and finally shy guys stop most projectiles.

even with all those things, I don't feel this gets to be cp because all those facts are really minor and rarely happen. ( the only important one would be the platform, and it's the one which happens the less.)

Starter.

 

[Isaac Brawler]

Obviously neutral.

There are absolutely no threats in this stage, aside from the fly guys and the "random" (which actually isn't random, it comes out when someone is about to die) platform at the edge. And those are not a real threat, the fly guys are just stupid and the platform acts more as an advantage than a disadvantage.

I see no reasons for making Yoshi's Island a counterpick stage.

 

[Retroking2000]

Neutral for me

large big canvas

Slightly slanted edges could pose a threat to some characters but not enough to set it as a counter pick

It has a horizontal design, with two main platforms.

The top one tilts during play - Randomly so neither opponent will know result to fair play

. There is a ghost, called the Support Ghost, who appears and disappears at random, creating a temporary platform that can save recovering characters. - again a random feature to the stage add to fairness as they come out randomly

 

[K@0S]

the fact that you can "fast land" on the right ledge with some characters (and the Ike's up-b bug when you shield it

Don't avoid these points people

 

[Marcbri]

first off noone is so stupid to attack a shield with Ike's upb xD. secondly it doesn't happen often and thirdly just because a character can't recover from one angle it doesn't make a stage cp ( lol that's like complaining about FD's ledges xD)

and about that trick in the right ledge... I guess you are talking about that wavedash-like move that some characters like Sheik can do. that's like saying a stage is cp because wolf can go through it. it doesn't change anything and it does not make that characters broken ( infact it doesn't even get them better, they just have a random trick that can work rarely.)

those two points may be there, but they don't mean much.

 

[K@0S]

I was talking about the instant get up on the ledge; I know it good because GW does it very well.

 

[Fuzzyness]

i dont see a problem with this stage being neutral, it poses no threat in melee too and has the same features (cloud replaced by those mountain thingies) apart from the different styles of the land curving which also dosen't really affect much

 

[Tero.]

Stage Layout is overall neutral.
Shy Guys aren't a big deal, neither is the curvy ground.

So the only factor that is arguable would be the ghosts which could benefit recovering from time to time, but I don't think that justifies beeing only cp.

I'll leave this open for at least another day so everyone has the chance to post his opinion.

 

[auroreon]

The only reason I see why anyone could consider this not neutral is the ghosts saving you from an otherwise certain loss of a stock, or otherwise effecting the match.
To be fair, I have been in a number of matches where the ghost platform has directly altered the outcome of the match and there have been a few occasions on the last stock where an otherwise doomed player has come back to win the match. This is especially true for characters with poor recoveries.
Some characters can make slight use of the slanted platforms such as Kirby and Yoshi, but not not enough to give them any major advantage.

Otherwise though the other features of this stage never really seem to have any effect on the match.

I don't think the ghost is reason enough to push this stage into counterpick as stage layout is very neutral.

 

[Blad01]

Counterpick stage :

- Unpredictable Platforms saving lives by luck. (Even if they aren't random)
- Shy Guys can be annoying
- The curvy ground and the platform prevent a lot of characters from doing SH Autocancel aerials. Thus they can't play on this stage like they usually would (Ganon's Thunderstorm, to take a well-known example). Some characters can't use all their moves effectively here, while some others can.

 

[-Linko-]

Neutral. If you can't stand random shyguys flying around doing NO damage, then go and play chess. Or make Smashville CP too.

Also, those platforms, are they really random? I'm not so sure...

 

[AHL]

._____________________________________________________.

Neutral.

 

[-Jumpman-]

I think most of us agree this should stay neutral. Does anyone want to add something?

 

[Retroking2000]

most posters in here have agreed on the neutral

but

Blad01 : you say that the mechanics on yoshi Island , can alter some moves of characters , thats why it should be announced as a counter
but you could say that for any other stage - im sure there are other stages where characters could cancel alter there animation in someway.

i think yoshi island makes a subtle change compared to a stage like delfino plaza(like MK can shuttle loop under the stage giving his appoarch a + )

 

[Gmoney_]

I too will join the neutral side. The ghosts and shy guys aren't enough reasons (the other reasons aren't that good I think) to make this a CP

 

[Blad01]

Blad01 : you say that the mechanics on yoshi Island , can alter some moves of characters , thats why it should be announced as a counter
but you could say that for any other stage - im sure there are other stages where characters could cancel alter there animation in someway.

Well not the neutral stages (Final D, BF, Smashville). You can use all your moves freely here.

(Delphino is CP by the way ôo)

Also, I'm wondering if people read other people's posts. You say that ghosts and shy guys aren't enough, but you don't answer to my main argument.

 

[K@0S]

So for the pro-counterpick side :

- Shy guys who can mess up projectiles
- Random lucky saves with ghosts; and anything random at this point is worse since we are talking about neutrals
- A broken instant get-up or instant aerial on the ledge with some characters (which can make ledge camping crazy on that stage)
- And probably the main argument pointed our by Blad, the shape of the stage and the platform mess up autocancels with several characters.
It also alters the mechanics of some attacks (gw's dtilt for example, which becomes worse in the middle of the stage)

IMO it's a lot.

 

[Retroking2000]

i meant as in yoshi island its not a stage where characters actually win using that specific stage mechanics/

that stage is too random for players to actually sequence their moves to pull out a win

its too subtle

i compared to delfino , because i dont see yoshi island being abused like that

btw i did read your post ;P

 

[Marc]

Good job on leading this project, .Tero!

I can kinda see where the Frenchies are coming from, but it's about as conservative as it gets.

The cloud and Shy Guys were a considerable nuisance on Melee's Yoshi's Story, but... I don't really see how the ghost is that bad here. In Brawl pretty much everyone makes it back to the stage without effort and I've yet to really see it screw things up. The reasons you're coming up with show why it isn't a good stage competitively rather than why it shouldn't be neutral... Melee Yoshi's Story wasn't a starter for most countries because it wasn't neutral (major benefit for Marth and Fox) rather than because it had the cloud and Shy Guys.

Questions:
-Are we considering stage striking or random select?
-Does this stage affect matchups to the point where it really can't be a starter? Final Destination isn't perfectly neutral either, but neutral enough.

 

[auroreon]

Good job on leading this project, .Tero!

I can kinda see where the Frenchies are coming from, but it's about as conservative as it gets.

The cloud and Shy Guys were a considerable nuisance on Melee's Yoshi's Story, but... I don't really see how the ghost is that bad here. In Brawl pretty much everyone makes it back to the stage without effort and I've yet to really see it screw things up. The reasons you're coming up with show why it isn't a good stage competitively rather than why it shouldn't be neutral... Melee Yoshi's Story wasn't a starter for most countries because it wasn't neutral (major benefit for Marth and Fox) rather than because it had the cloud and Shy Guys.

Questions:
-Are we considering stage striking or random select?
-Does this stage affect matchups to the point where it really can't be a starter? Final Destination isn't perfectly neutral either, but neutral enough.

I play on the stage a lot and I had the ghost save someone fairly often, characters like Link or Mario with very poor recoveries are saved by the ghost more often than one would think.
Someone can be in free fall nearing the bottom killzone when a ghost with conveniently pop up from under them carrying them back up to safety. As much as this sounds like an unlikely situation, I have had it happen in matches more than a few times.

I completely agree with your argument for keeping the stage neutral however, as you say this is not so much of a reason why the stage shouldn't be neutral.

 

[Retroking2000]

nice analysis marc

i am still going by neutral

- I just dont think that yoshi Island can be used for a counter

its not timed like the cloud in yoshi story which is like every 10-20 secs


*the stage had got ploys that is counterpick-like*

* but they come out completely random so enither player will be able to abuse that stage as they would do on a actual counterpick stage*

 

[Blad01]

Marc, auroreon, you still don't answer to my main argument.

(Not mentionning that having only 3 neutrals is way easier for the striking system.)

 

[Smasher89]

I think random select with stagereset would be the best, that way there will be more variety in starterstages and more tactical use of the reset.
You will have to accept 3 stages instead of 1 as a starter (unless you ban a "neutral) which will get more variety in starting stages.

Yoshis island is good for MK, but atleast it gives characters like Diddy a "bad" starterstage, same thing with snake...

 

[Blinky]

I thought everything here had been adressed, but as Blad01 is not accepting other peoples arguements for why this stage is neutral, I suppose I might as well contribute.

In my opinion, this stage is neutral, there are no dominating tactics for this stage, and only 3 annoyances as mentioned by Blad01. However, here is my counterarguement.

Looking at Blad01s post:

1) The ghosts can be a bit annoying sure, but there are so few characters whose recoveries are this bad to have to rely on it. Also, being on a platform offstage which you will soon be forced to jump off is not a beneficial position imo.

2) If you argue shy guys as being a reason for this being a counterpick, the reconsider your arguement. The one and only thing they really do is cause your moves to lag. They are predictable, and if you find that shy guys are effecting your performance, you need more practice on this map.

3) This is probably Blad01s most solid point, however, it is also one of the most easily compensated. SH autocancelled aerials are very very easy on this stage. The simple rule is, if the floor is sloping upwards, dont do an aerial with a few frames autocancel window. Learning the stage and position on this stage will put you at a greater advantage because of this. Whenever i play falcon or ganon for fun, I have no issue in using my aerials. Also, if you say this affects alot of characters, then there is no issue, as each character is not given advantage, although I still don't see it as a problem.

A few other points worth mentioning, the platform in the middle has no relevance to this stages position on the stage list. It changes, but the change in all does not bring about anything significant. Also and I can not emphasise this enough:

The factor which determines where on th stage list each stage should go IS to what balance does this stage bring in character benefits. Stages like this do NOT benefit certain characters substantially, therefore, as there is no major issues, it is neutral. Stages like Yoshi's in melee were counterpick not because of the extra features, but because of how beneficial this was to characters such as marth.

 

[Marcbri]

Good job on leading this project, .Tero!

Questions:
-Are we considering stage striking or random select?
-Does this stage affect matchups to the point where it really can't be a starter? Final Destination isn't perfectly neutral either, but neutral enough.

I can only see it as being a really bad stage for Diddy kong ( pit and a few others are also bad here). but if there's stage reset or striking system or stages ban it shouldn't be a problem since no Diddy will get ***** because of bad luck.

 

[auroreon]

The only way I can see the features of Yoshis Island effecting your performance in any real noticable way is if you don't have much experience with the stage, which to be hounest you should do as it is widely considered a neutral stage.
I can't see that there would be any issue with the Fly Guys severe enough that it would give either player a distinct advantage, they are only capable of effecting a match in 2 ways.
1. They can stop certain projectiles protecting and creating an oppening for the opposing player, I cannot see this situation arising often enough to warrant giving it serious thought. The Fly Guys occupy positions on the stage where incoming projectiles are rarely going to play much of a role in the match.
2. By activating a slow lingering move such as Bowsers Fsmash for example, if the attack hits a group of Fly Guys the move will be delayed and hitboxes will stay out longer. This has happened to me and resulted in the loss of a stock but it is an extremely rare occurance and even when it does happen its unlikely to have any real effect on the outcome of the match.

I can see the issue with platform slants effecting autocanceled aerials and having considered it I understand where you are coming from as it is an issue for some characters but not others, however I still don't see it as nearly a big enough factor to consider the stage a counterpick. Simply learning stage positioning and knowing the effect of slanted edges on aerials with very few autocancel frames means any character is capable of not being severely disadvantages by this.
From my experience with this stage, slanted platforms seem to have barely any effect on the performance of players in a match.

 

[Tero.]

Questions:
-Are we considering stage striking or random select?

Personally I'm in favor of Stage Striking, we should make another topic about that.

(Not mentionning that having only 3 neutrals is way easier for the striking system.)

Wrong, because you don't have fair stage strinking with 3 stages. The one who starts strinking is always in disadvantage.

5 stages and 1221 striking system is the best.

 

[Greward]

Stage Stricking
Neutral. Shy guys arent a real problem, as ghosts do. Stoping 1 projectile... meh and the hitlag issue... u can see the shy guy. Ghosts can save you... or gimp ness!! (lucas too but lucas isnt played on tourneys lol)
At the same time, smashville's ballon can do the same than the shy guys and the moving platform can save your recovery as ghosts do.
Ghosts are random? Still if they are random this stage should be neutral in my opinion but maybe they arent random D:
Note: France is attention wore and they want to be different lol
There are no characters "bad" on this stage. Diddy isnt as good as in other stages but its still too good xD

 

[K@0S]

So for the pro-counterpick side :

- Shy guys who can mess up projectiles
- Random lucky saves with ghosts; and anything random at this point is worse since we are talking about neutrals
- A broken instant get-up or instant aerial on the ledge with some characters (which can make ledge camping crazy on that stage)
- And probably the main argument pointed our by Blad, the shape of the stage and the platform mess up autocancels with several characters.
It also alters the mechanics of some attacks (gw's dtilt for example, which becomes worse in the middle of the stage)

IMO it's a lot.

I quote myself because it looks like some people don't read everything or act as if they didn't and are too prejudiced about the "starter-worthyness" of that stage, and don't even think about it. Bring some better arguments.

That's a lot for a starter. Some people say "FD" or "Melee Yoshi Story", but it's only for one factor (and about FD, the shape of the ledge isn't even an argument..). Here, however, we have an addition of several little factors, which is easily the equivalent of a big one.

 

[Achoral]

It's obviously a CP for me, for the same facts.

Plus, the fact that the field is not "empty" under the edge may mess up some recoveries, or advantage others.

And this may sound selfish, but Ness can't charge his Usmash/Dsmash on some spots of the ground of the bottom.

 

[Charby]

Well Yoshi's Island is a CP for me
Random Saving Platforms
Weird Floor
Ness is totaly useless on it
Ghosts...

 

[Tero.]

Lol at every single CP vote comes from some french guy.

 

[Charby]

Well i thinked we were first EU but anyway...

 

[Tero.]

Well i thinked we were first EU but anyway...

Nah it's all cool and I see your point, I just found that kinda funny.
Would you guys accept a european ruleset anyway if the majority agrees on YI beeing neutral?

 

[Charby]

This is the point of this thread^^

 

[Blad01]

Nah it's all cool and I see your point, I just found that kinda funny.[/color]

It's not a votes war D: (Well not yet)
We are debatting for the moment, and honnestly I don't really see good arguments on the pro-neutral side (When there are some ._.).

Would you guys accept a european ruleset anyway if the majority agrees on YI beeing neutral?

I don't know if we would accept it for parisians/national tournaments (like the BI); we might accept it only partially (If we all agree on YI being CP by example, I don't see why we should put it neutral).
But we will definitly accept it for the international events / Biggest events. (SL4 being the first one ?)

EDIT : Are we restricting the votes by the way ? Some people are not debatting at all, and might vote without even thinking about it (http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7574136&postcount=15).

Wrong, because you don't have fair stage strinking with 3 stages. The one who starts strinking is always in disadvantage.

5 stages and 1221 striking system is the best.

I said "easier" (than 4 stages being neutral), not the best
But you're right on 5 stages + 1221 choice being the best for the striking system...
(Actually the best system would be imo :
- 3 stages
- Blink strike (That means each player strikes a stage, without telling which one to his opponent)
- Random if they chose the same)

 

[-Jumpman-]

Well i thinked we were first EU but anyway...

I thinked that too.

Actually the best system would be imo :
- 3 stages
- Blink strike (That means each player strikes a stage, without telling which one to his opponent)
- Random if they chose the same

I think that if YI isn't neutral, FD isn't either because of its size. You must be consistent in your judgement.