Stage Discussion Round #1: Yoshi's Island

[Blad01]

I think that if YI isn't neutral, FD isn't either because of its size. You must be consistent in your judgement.

Explain your point, please. I'm consistent in my judgement : On BF, FD and Smashville, you can :

- Use all your moves freely, everywhere on the stage (autocancel, ness' smashs etc)
- Use your projectiles freely (Reference to the shy guys)
- Die in peace (what the ghost doesn't allow)

 

[K@0S]

Size is ONE argument. And a bad one.

 

[Isaac Brawler]

So, anyone not from France saying Yoshi's Island shouldn't be neutral?

 

[Charby]

It depends am accepting cookies
How many do you have?

 

[-Jumpman-]

Size is ONE argument. And a bad one.

Which is exactly why we should allow New Pork City. Glad you agree with me.

No really, if an edge that makes things "broken" (obviously not) is a good one, size is a great one.

- Use all your moves freely, everywhere on the stage (autocancel, ness' smashs etc)
- Use your projectiles freely (Reference to the shy guys)
- Die in peace (what the ghost doesn't allow)

1. You can autocancel on YI too.
2. Actually, platforms hinder the use of certain projectiles, and so do Shy Guys.
3. To be honest, the moving platform on smashville actually saved a lot of people. And the ghosts move in patterns, they're predictible.

To the autocancel argument: FD allows certain characters to make better use of their projectiles, and BF makes certain characters have a major disadvantage in matchups against some characters. I mean, on FD, Falco can't up-b and use the side of the stage (like on BF) to get back to the edge. Does this make FD a CP? No. We have to draw the line somewhere. And when comparing YI to other neutrals I among many others have come to the conclusion YI should be neutral. And that's exactly where we should draw the line as a community.

 

[Marcbri]

Size is ONE argument. And a bad one.

and the reasons are?

FD isn't neutral, Falco, IC or Diddy **** there while Marth or Wario **** on BF while some characters do best in YI. in fact no stage is neutral. we are talking about starters, not neutrals.

- Use all your moves freely, everywhere on the stage (autocancel, ness' smashs etc)
- Use your projectiles freely (Reference to the shy guys)
- Die in peace (what the ghost doesn't allow)

1-You can autocancel, learn the timing for the stage ( I've just tested with wolf's fair just in case)
2- let's make SV a cp, the balloon stop my projectiles :/.
3-again, what about the platform in SV?it can save you when you can't recover with some characters, but it's still a starter. maybe because the one edgeguarding can jump to the platform and gimp? yes, and it can be done too in yoshi's.


any more points to discuss?

edit: I left the window in add reply for a while when I was having dinner, I just read Jumpman's post.

basically what he said.

 

[Blad01]

Which is exactly why we should allow New Pork City. Glad you agree with me.

No really, if an edge that makes things "broken" (obviously not) is a good one, size is a great one.

Are you comparing FD and New Pork City ? Just to be sure.

New Pork City is unplayable, and you can run away forever, with no chance for the opponent to catch you. Plus, a one-hit KO by the pink creature.

1-You can autocancel, learn the timing for the stage ( I've just tested with wolf's fair just in case)
2- let's make SV a cp, the balloon stop my projectiles :/.
3-again, what about the platform in SV?it can save you when you can't recover with some characters, but it's still a starter. maybe because the one edgeguarding can jump to the platform and gimp? yes, and it can be done too in yoshi's.

1- There is no "timing" for the stage, you can only autocancel in the center of the stage / from the sides towards the center of the stage. If you are in the center of the stage and try to SH AC a Dair with Ganon by example, you're screwed. Same with the platform.
(You and jumpman don't answer on the Ness smashes, btw)
2- This is just in addition.
3- The platform in SV is predictable (YI's ghosts aren't really, Jumpman), and when you get saved by it, that's because you used it smartly. Moreover, the platform is high and doesn't save you when you are falling to your death.

FD isn't neutral, Falco, IC or Diddy **** there while Marth or Wario **** on BF while some characters do best in YI. in fact no stage is neutral. we are talking about starters, not neutrals.

To the autocancel argument: FD allows certain characters to make better use of their projectiles, and BF makes certain characters have a major disadvantage in matchups against some characters. I mean, on FD, Falco can't up-b and use the side of the stage (like on BF) to get back to the edge. Does this make FD a CP? No. We have to draw the line somewhere. And when comparing YI to other neutrals I among many others have come to the conclusion YI should be neutral. And that's exactly where we should draw the line as a community.

I've never talked about match-ups, I don't think this is a good criteria at all. (Except when the given advantage is really too important, at the point that the match-up is almost a free-win, but I don't see any example in the 4 stages we are talking about.)
On BF, DF and Smashville, you can use all your moves freely, everywhere. In my opinion, this is where we should "draw the line" (I mean, this should be a criteria for starters stages, among others) :

You should be able, when you start a set, to use all your moves, as you wish. You shouldn't have to take into consideration the caracteristics of the stage too much. And when the stage prevents you from using SH AC or Smashs (with Ness), it is "too much".
And honestly, it's not comparable with Falco's Up B and BF's edge... First, this is an advantage given to a character (He's not restricted in his moves, but helped), and this help is really small...

(Also, this is really better to have 3 stages than 4 stages, it allows to have the choice between different systems for the first round)

But I see your point, Jumpman, apparently, in spite of the fact that the reasons to put YI in CP seem evident to me, the place of this stage will be decided by the opinion of each voter, rather than by an agreement...

 

[K@0S]

^ Basically, what Blad said.

If we are talking about match-ups, all the stages in the game are CPs then, that argument is not very valuable..

And when I was talking about size, it was FD's size, not size in general. I thought it was obvious but well..

 

[Marcbri]

just because a character can't do a move in a stage there's no reason to make it cp. just strike/reset/ban that stage if you main that character ( and if you main ganon it really doesn't matter cause you'll lose in all the stages xD)

the argument I can't do that here but can in other stages is stupid too.Oh, lets make FD a cp because I can't ledge drop to sideb with wolf. let's make SV a cp because the balloon screwed up my recovery with ness or because I can't wall jump. let's make PS in melee a cp ( it is starter for those who don't know) because sometimes random bugs appear and you fall through the stage.

really, all these things are MINOR.

now a reason why this stage deserves to be a cp and not a starter?.

As I said, it making a couple of character worse ( stage striking, stage reset, stage ban anyone?) and because the platform saves someone sometimes aren't enough reasons to say this stage is cp.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Are you comparing FD and New Pork City ? Just to be sure.

New Pork City is unplayable, and you can run away forever, with no chance for the opponent to catch you. Plus, a one-hit KO by the pink creature.



1- There is no "timing" for the stage, you can only autocancel in the center of the stage / from the sides towards the center of the stage. If you are in the center of the stage and try to SH AC a Dair with Ganon by example, you're screwed. Same with the platform.
(You and jumpman don't answer on the Ness smashes, btw)
2- This is just in addition.
3- The platform in SV is predictable (YI's ghosts aren't really, Jumpman), and when you get saved by it, that's because you used it smartly. Moreover, the platform is high and doesn't save you when you are falling to your death.




I've never talked about match-ups, I don't think this is a good criteria at all. (Except when the given advantage is really too important, at the point that the match-up is almost a free-win, but I don't see any example in the 4 stages we are talking about.)
On BF, DF and Smashville, you can use all your moves freely, everywhere. In my opinion, this is where we should "draw the line" (I mean, this should be a criteria for starters stages, among others) :

You should be able, when you start a set, to use all your moves, as you wish. You shouldn't have to take into consideration the caracteristics of the stage too much. And when the stage prevents you from using SH AC or Smashs (with Ness), it is "too much".
And honestly, it's not comparable with Falco's Up B and BF's edge... First, this is an advantage given to a character (He's not restricted in his moves, but helped), and this help is really small...

(Also, this is really better to have 3 stages than 4 stages, it allows to have the choice between different systems for the first round)

But I see your point, Jumpman, apparently, in spite of the fact that the reasons to put YI in CP seem evident to me, the place of this stage will be decided by the opinion of each voter, rather than by an agreement...

1. I was comparing FD to NPC, because Kaos, or brilliant debater (not debatter, Blad) told me something was "BAD" without explaining it.

2. It's true that some characters have certain problems with neutral stages.

3. Like I said, some characters have certain problems with stages, luckily Ness isn't played very much and he has a stage ban.

4.

(YI's ghosts aren't really, Jumpman),

Neither is your grammar (if you don't get it, "really" is like... "BAD").

5. No, but it can decide the outcome of a match. Saying it's different because it catches you when you're falling down is ignorant, because it can decide the outcome of a match just as much as any other moving platform.

6. I disagree, "moving freely" aren't my criteria and has never been a criteria until the Frenchs started using theoretical criteria to decide what their neutral stages are.

7. I think Ness' disadvantage is really small because no one plays Ness. Like I said, single characters cannot be the main factor when deciding what your neutral stages are.

If you would refrain from using "ad hominem" arguments in serious discussion from now on, I would appreciate that. I am getting tired of it.

 

[Blad01]

just because a character can't do a move in a stage there's no reason to make it cp. just strike/reset/ban that stage if you main that character ( and if you main ganon it really doesn't matter cause you'll lose in all the stages xD)

The strike / reset / ban argument is not valid. Let's make JJ or RC neutral then, you can still strike / reset / ban them if you don't like !

the argument I can't do that here but can in other stages is stupid too.Oh, lets make FD a cp because I can't ledge drop to sideb with wolf. let's make SV a cp because the balloon screwed up my recovery with ness or because I can't wall jump. let's make PS in melee a cp ( it is starter for those who don't know) because sometimes random bugs appear and you fall through the stage.

You didn't read carefully.
SH AC, or Smah in Ness's case, are essential to a character, or are at least basic moves. Imagine if you weren't able with Falco to SH Dair, by example.

The moves you list are just a little trick given to a character (wolf), and an additional abilitie (wall jump). They are not essential.

So this objection is not valid, like I said to Jumpman in my previous post (with his example of Falco's Up B and BF's edge...)

really, all these things are MINOR.

No they aren't.
There are a lot of characters with SH AC + Ness' Yoyo (And that's not because he's not so much played that it should not be taken into consideration >_>).


@Jumpman : I'm not going to counter-argument all your points (which are themwelves counter-arguments). Your first 4 points are not valid, like I've stated, but on the other points, we are not going to reach an agreement anytime soon :

5. No, but it can decide the outcome of a match. Saying it's different because it catches you when you're falling down is ignorant, because it can decide the outcome of a match just as much as any other moving platform.

Since you can't predict the ghost, it relies on luck, as opposed to Smashville's platform.

6. I disagree, "moving freely" aren't my criteria and has never been a criteria until the Frenchs started using theoretical criteria to decide what their neutral stages are.

Well,aAt least us, "frenchies", have defined precise criterias.
And also, we have experienced both ruleset, and we actually prefer the actual one (With 3 starters : BF, Final D, Smashville), even if it still has flaws. (During the stage strike system, the first one is slightly disadvantaged)

7. I think Ness' disadvantage is really small because no one plays Ness. Like I said, single characters cannot be the main factor when deciding what your neutral stages are.

It's not only about Ness at all for me, since it concerns every character with an AC aerial. But again, we're not going to agree on that point.



(PS : Thanks for correcting my mistakes honestly, I would appreciate if more people did that )

Also what do you think of making some intermediate categories, like in the SBR's ruleset ? By example here Yoshi's Island would be in Neutral / Counterpick. And then it's up to the T.O. to decide.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Also what do you think of making some intermediate categories, like in the SBR's ruleset ? By example here Yoshi's Island would be in Neutral / Counterpick. And then it's up to the T.O. to decide.

No, because our goal is to create a European ruleset. Inconsistency makes this discussion unnecessary. By the way, I would appreciate it if you countered my arguments instead of saying they are not valid.

I think we should make YI neutral because you obviously have predetermined criteria, such as your idea about Ness' smashes. Other characters (like Wolf) have difficulties recovering on FD, and using his tricks on it. This means FD limits characters, and so do other stages. But this isn't Street Fighter, stages actually are part of the game, and they limit certain characters. But we choose to have neutral stages, and I among others don't agree with your criteria. By the way, I never meant to type "Frenchies", I meant to type "French".

If you honestly think me correcting your mistakes is good, I will continue doing it.

 

[Greward]

Ness dont use his smashes so much to making this stage counterpick, still 1 character isnt enough to make a stage counterpick or banned.
About auto cancels attacks, most characters dont have a big issue on this stage, just some ones, and this is the same than wario having a disadvantage on FD.

 

[Tero.]

Personnally I'm getting more and more convinced of having only 3 neutral stages and some sort of double blind stage striking (if both strike the same stage they can agree on one of the two remaining or else pick random).

I say that because I don't think LC will be considered neutral and I don't want to have 4 neutral stages + random select.

 

[Greward]

Maybe we should do lylat cruise and the other starter/counterpick stages before finishing this, since then we could see if we were having a number that could have stage stricking. (bad english ftw)
remember that starter=/=neutral

 

[K@0S]

just because a character can't do a move in a stage there's no reason to make it cp. just strike/reset/ban that stage if you main that character ( and if you main ganon it really doesn't matter cause you'll lose in all the stages xD).

Then we can put any CP in the stage list, because you can strike it.

1. I was comparing FD to NPC, because Kaos, or brilliant debater (not debatter, Blad) told me something was "BAD" without explaining it.

Keep your trolls for yourself, because you are in the SBR doesn't make you superior in any manner.

Other characters (like Wolf) have difficulties recovering on FD, and using his tricks on it. This means FD limits characters, and so do other stages..

YI's ledge limits some option too, but it wasn't even one of our argument. And like I said, it's the addition of several arguments like these which can make it a counterpick, not a single one. But if you take our arguments one after another, then we agree that they aren't counterpick-worthy.

For example, if you wanted to defend the fact that FD is a counterpick, what would be your arguments ? The ledge (and the size maybe) ? Objectively, that's not enough.

Personnally I'm getting more and more convinced of having only 3 neutral stages and some sort of double blind stage striking (if both strike the same stage they can agree on one of the two remaining or else pick random).

I say that because I don't think LC will be considered neutral and I don't want to have 4 neutral stages + random select.

<3 you. The 3 stage list is also a great argument if you don't want LC to be in the starter list, and you want a fair first stage pick.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Then we can put any CP in the stage list, because you can strike it.



Keep your trolls for yourself, because you are in the SBR doesn't make you superior in any manner.



YI's ledge limits some option too, but it wasn't even one of our argument. And like I said, it's the addition of several arguments like these which can make it a counterpick, not a single one. But if you take our arguments one after another, then we agree that they aren't counterpick-worthy.

For example, if you wanted to defend the fact that FD is a counterpick, what would be your arguments ? The ledge (and the size maybe) ? Objectively, that's not enough.



<3 you. The 3 stage list is also a great argument if you don't want LC to be in the starter list, and you want a fair first stage pick.

I shouldn't be replying to this, as I think you lack the ability to discuss these things in a normal way.

1. I was saying YOU were spamming.

2. No, limiting characters wasn't one of your argument (looks at Blad's posts about Ness... hmm....) Pretty sure it was dude.

3. How can something be "objectively" (don't you even know what that means?) if we have no criteria? That's impossible.

And yeah, I am not defending that point, I'm merely comparing YI to FD.

.Tero, would you please count the votes and come to the conclusion YI won't be banned?

Edit: I edited my post because K@os can't help he says the stuff he does. I won't call him a ***** anymore.

 

[Marcbri]

I totally agree with Jumpman, and no Kaos, you can strike yoshi's because it may not be as good as other starters to your mains just like FD isn't good for wario .

not being good for a character= not ban worthy.
but other cps are cps because they have random things going on that aren't minor ( like SV's or YI's platforms) or they give too much of an advantage to some characters or too much of a disadvantage to others.

So ness sucking on Yoshis and because of that YI can't be a starter is a dumb argument just like: '' hey guys wario sux on FD, let's make it a cp''.

 

[Blad01]

So you don't think that on the first round, you should be able to play normally with your character, everywhere on the stage, with things as basic as SH autocancels ?
(The real vote is on this criteria)

1. It doesn't concern only one character.
2. It's not about match-ups, advantages or disadvantages.
3. It's not about being able to do such small tricks as stage-scaring with Wolf (or whatever they call it), it's about doing essential and basic moves such as SH AC and Smashes.

For the votes, I think we should go on the index topic, and decide there how it should be done (public poll + only some names counting sounds good)

And additionally,

4. There are other problems on YI (but minor this time) : Unpredictable ghosts, Shy Guys.

5. Without YI's as a starter, the stage striking is way better. (See the topic on that subject)

6. (EDIT, seing how everyone answers point by point) : 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5

 

[Blinky]

Seeing as absolutely nobody answered my last post, or completely ignored it, I guess I have to post again, but I don't appreciate having my time wasted by repeating myself.

1. It doesn't effect one character, it effects about the same ammount as every other neutral.
2. You have this wrong, character matchup is a big factor for determining neutrals.
3. Adapatability, and even then auto-cancels are hardly affected. I can play freely on YI as any character, and I wouldn't call myself the worlds greatest player.
4. These things are minor and can be ignored by being observant.
5. 3 stages for stage striking is terrible, and so is blink striking, 5 stages minimum or it is too biased/unfair.

At the very least can somebody at least develop a counter arguement to my previous post, at least then I will feel like my time isn't being wasted, even if we disagree.

 

[K@0S]

I shouldn't be replying to this, as I think you lack the ability to discuss these things in a normal way.

I also think that about you. You lack the ability to discuss anything, because your opinion is always biased from reality. I remember the french thread when you said Leon was the only good french player, when you said "I don't remember which one" state was the worst in the US when it wasn't at all, and I can guess it was you because of your personality, some stupid comments on youtube (but "you are in the SBR", I forgot). Even people from your country tell me not to listen to you because of that.

But perharps normal way = trolling for you, then we agree.

No, limiting characters wasn't one of your argument (looks at Blad's posts about Ness... hmm....) Pretty sure it was dude.

->

YI's ledge limits some option too

Were we talking about YI's ledge and the "limited options" it gives ?

I totally agree with Jumpman, and no Kaos, you can strike yoshi's because it may not be as good as other starters to your mains just like FD isn't good for wario .

not being good for a character= not ban worthy.
but other cps are cps because they have random things going on that aren't minor ( like SV's or YI's platforms) or they give too much of an advantage to some characters or too much of a disadvantage to others.

So ness sucking on Yoshis and because of that YI can't be a starter is a dumb argument just like: '' hey guys wario sux on FD, let's make it a cp''.

Wario can still play normally on FD.

So you don't think that on the first round, you should be able to play normally with your character, everywhere on the stage, with things as basic as SH autocancels ?

Basically, this.

5. 3 stages for stage striking is terrible, and so is blink striking, 5 stages minimum or it is too biased/unfair.

False. See my first post on that thread : http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=237104
Your other points have already been discussed.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Please don't accuse me of trolling when I am not.

.Tero, I'm getting tired of this. Could you please count the votes?

 

[K@0S]

If we have to vote now, please read the stage striking thread if you did not, especially those posts :

3 isn't unfair, except if both players share the same worst stage, which is quite.. rare.

But it's exactly the same for 5, 7, 9 etc. Even if the 1 2 2 1 system looks good, it doesn't make it better in this case because choices are not always logical; 4th worst stage for a player is not necesarily the 2nd best for the other (if there are 5 stages), and the last one to choose can be advantaged in some cases.

If you aren't convinced, make some tests with numbers.

Edit : here is an example

fav 1 : a b d c e
fav 2 : d e a c b

This means player 1's favourite stage is a, and his worst is e.

In this case, if player 1 starts, the stage is a. If player 2 starts, the stage is d.

With illogical rankings like those and shared least favourite stages, nothing would be fair. And as I said, 3 stages is unfair only if both players share the same worst stage -> illogical in the same extend.

Actually the best system would be imo :
- 3 stages
- Blink strike (Each player strikes a stage, without telling which one to his opponent)
- Random between the 2 stages that remain, in case they chose the same one

Matematically you can't do fairer than 3 stages + random if it's the same stage. Try my example.

 

[Marcbri]

Making a stage cp to have an exact number of starter stages is the dumbest thing I've read in this thread.
I'd love Yoshi's was a cp because I do better at the other 3 stages, BUT this is not about opinion, and just because of minor problems it shouldn't be cp. I'd like some vids showing how yoshi's island can make someone who would have won in another stage lose because of that minor problems.

 

[-Jumpman-]

I completely agree with Marc(bri). It's a bad idea to make stages CP/Neutral just because it would result in a better system (which is debatable). The main subject here is if it is neutral or not. And it is, according to the majority here.

 

[Tero.]

Please don't accuse me of trolling when I am not.

.Tero, I'm getting tired of this. Could you please count the votes?

I'm still waiting for a final decision on the voting system. have a look at the index topic for more information.

 

[K@0S]

I pointed out that fact because I didn't want people to make it a starter because they think 3 stages suck, when it's the best option.

It's definitively not dumb; YI will be the most "counter-pick like" starter if it's voted as one, and it will probably be in the starter-counterpick list. Considering TOs often add a stage like LC or PS1 to have 5 stages, removing one can logically be taken into account. (and 3 stages is fairer than 5, again see my first post on the other thread)

Btw, we now must decide who will vote.

 

[-Jumpman-]

The neutral stages have nothing to do with the system, please understand that. Our job is the decide which stages are neutral, not combine this with the system.

KAOS, do not, I repeat, do not post stuff without explaining it.

 

[K@0S]

Did I post something I didn't explain in my last post ?

No, I didn't.

The neutral stages have nothing to do with the system, please understand that. Our job is the decide which stages are neutral, not combine this with the system.

That's your opinion. I think they are linked in a way, see my example with LC and PS1, so I just wanted to make things clear.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Size is ONE argument. And a bad one.

I wasn't talking about your last post.

Anyway, they aren't connecting imo. Stages should be neutral/cp/banned because their qualities, not because they don't fit the system (that isn't chosen yet). I think we should go for neutral and change that if people like your system.

 

[K@0S]

I wasn't talking about your last post.

Then what's the point in repeating it one billion times conserning one relatively old post, when it's totally unnecessary and offtopic, and taking into account that I explained all the rest ?

Anyway, they aren't connecting imo. Stages should be neutral/cp/banned because their qualities, not because they don't fit the system (that isn't chosen yet). I think we should go for neutral and change that if people like your system.

That sounds ok to me, but change the "go for neutral" with "vote" atm.

 

[-Jumpman-]

I don't agree on that. That was one of the obvious examples.

 

[Greward]

Wario can still play normally on FD.

No.
Why only french people think that is counterpick? D:

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Counterpick stage :

- Unpredictable Platforms saving lives by luck. (Even if they aren't random)
- Shy Guys can be annoying
- The curvy ground and the platform prevent a lot of characters from doing SH Autocancel aerials. Thus they can't play on this stage like they usually would (Ganon's Thunderstorm, to take a well-known example). Some characters can't use all their moves effectively here, while some others can.

I kinda agree with this.

That and the wall allow better recovery for wall jumpers and wall clingers.

So I don't know if voting is still active, but it's always worth giving a shot.

 

[Blad01]

No.
Why only french people think that is counterpick? D:

Before being french, we are individual humain beings... There is no french alliance. It's probably because we've tested the 5 stages system + random, and we disliked it, because YI and PS were annoying.
And we enjoy the 3 stages + striking system.

Oh and Xonar is not french... Is he ? XD

Why Wario can't play normally on FD ? Please explain this to me.

(By the way if you find the 3 stages + striking system unfair, go on the good thread, and read the 3 stages + double-blind striking system. It's the fairest system apparently)

 

[Greward]

PS1 is LOL as starter.
Wario sucks there because he gets infinited and outcamped badly, his main strategies (air camping) cant be used here and he has no approach. He sucks here, thats all.
It's the first time i see xonar, and i know who are the top holland players.
Ganondorf isnt played on tourneys, so its not a good example for the autocancelling moves. And certain moves that cant be autocanceled on certain part of the stage dont make a stage counterpick.
Ghosts always appears on the same part... just watch out.
And shy guys are ocasional as much, and if ur stupid and u get hit by bowser's fsmash because u didnt see that there were a shy guy, just buy glasses.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Oh and Xonar is not french... Is he ? XD

If you saw my french grades you shouldn't had to ask me that

You guys ever played marth and tried to use retreating/defensive fairs? You can't, because if you tipper a shy guy you're stuck with a smash in your face.
You guys ever tried to ledge hop, double laser to boost smash? you can't, cause there's shy guys in the way of your lasers.
You guys ever tried to fire a fully charged charge beam only to realise theres a shy guy in the way? I mean really, why should I keep track of that **** on a neutral.

You guys ever gimped somebody so bad, only to see him recover from a ghost platform?
You guys ever thought you got nana dead, only to get her saved by a ghost platform?
You guys ever tried to recover with your upB (i.e. falcos/fox'/wolves) only to be pushed upwards before you release, leading into a fatal usmash?

You guys ever tried gimping someone off stage, while he could wall jump and just get away, leading into your untimely death?

etc...

ban PS1, the ledge has a sweetspot as big as my pinkie

 

[Marcbri]

If you saw my french grades you shouldn't had to ask me that

1-You guys ever played marth and tried to use retreating/defensive fairs? You can't, because if you tipper a shy guy you're stuck with a smash in your face.
You guys ever tried to ledge hop, double laser to boost smash? you can't, cause there's shy guys in the way of your lasers.
You guys ever tried to fire a fully charged charge beam only to realise theres a shy guy in the way? I mean really, why should I keep track of that **** on a neutral.

2-You guys ever gimped somebody so bad, only to see him recover from a ghost platform?
You guys ever thought you got nana dead, only to get her saved by a ghost platform?
You guys ever tried to recover with your upB (i.e. falcos/fox'/wolves) only to be pushed upwards before you release, leading into a fatal usmash?

3-You guys ever tried gimping someone off stage, while he could wall jump and just get away, leading into your untimely death?

etc...

ban PS1, the ledge has a sweetspot as big as my pinkie

1-Have you tried to watch if there are shy-guys in front of you before doing something? it doesn't take much skill, really.

2-if you can gimp them once, you can gimp them again, it's like the platform in SV, sometimes it will save someone and sometimes it won't. if you want to be sure the platform doesn't change anything just send the character you gimped in another place that isn't where the platform may appear.

3-OMG; you can wall jump!!!!!! broken!!!! cp!!!!! it's not like you can't wall jump in BF or FD!!!! we seriusly must ban every stage where you can wall jump, if we don't characters who can wall jump will become broken!!.

serously that third point made no sense -.-

 

[Greward]

If you saw my french grades you shouldn't had to ask me that

You guys ever played marth and tried to use retreating/defensive fairs? You can't, because if you tipper a shy guy you're stuck with a smash in your face.
You guys ever tried to ledge hop, double laser to boost smash? you can't, cause there's shy guys in the way of your lasers.
You guys ever tried to fire a fully charged charge beam only to realise theres a shy guy in the way? I mean really, why should I keep track of that **** on a neutral.

You guys ever gimped somebody so bad, only to see him recover from a ghost platform?
You guys ever thought you got nana dead, only to get her saved by a ghost platform?
You guys ever tried to recover with your upB (i.e. falcos/fox'/wolves) only to be pushed upwards before you release, leading into a fatal usmash?

You guys ever tried gimping someone off stage, while he could wall jump and just get away, leading into your untimely death?

etc...

ban PS1, the ledge has a sweetspot as big as my pinkie

1- Yeah thats right 1 time i was playing fox and a shy guy stopped one of my lazerz then i realized that this stage was unplayable and i put no contest ZOMFG
2-If you gimp somebody so hard, just wait if the ghost appear to hit him with a fair/fsmash/falconpawnch. Or dont gimp where the ghost can appear. You can choose!
3-I agree one time i played one lucario and he upB to the wall and wall jumped thats cheap and unhonorous!!!! the only playable stage is mario kart!!!

 

[-Jumpman-]

Xonar is awesome.