Stage Discussion Round #1: Yoshi's Island

[#HBC | ZoZo]

It's just that a neutral shouldn't give that big an advantage like wall jumping.
A neutral shouldn't have some random shy guys fly by as I'm about to water pistol gimp my opponent - oh but don't worry, he would be saved by the ghost platform anyway.

2-if you can gimp them once, you can gimp them again, it's like the platform in SV, sometimes it will save someone and sometimes it won't. if you want to be sure the platform doesn't change anything just send the character you gimped in another place that isn't where the platform may appear.

Sorry, I don't dive after my opponents after I already gimped them, the platform is caused by a seed too so that's not predictable.

2-If you gimp somebody so hard, just wait if the ghost appear to hit him with a fair/fsmash/falconpawnch. Or dont gimp where the ghost can appear. You can choose!

So because of the NEUTRAL stage my gimping is limited?
Even if you wait with your farukon pauwnch they can just pop a shield.

Also trips on ghost platforms while trying to get off = massive lulz

Xonar is awesome.

PS crawling characters get a 'dacus' for their downsmash here by jumping forward, crawling backwards as they land and csticking a dsmash. omg free surprise buttsecks

 

[Greward]

NEUTRAL=/=STARTER. THERE ARE NO NEUTRAL STAGES.
Now that you have learned an important thing, lets continue our discussion.

Your gimping is limited on this stage. As it is on FD because the stage is larger and getting ur opponent offstage is difficultier, or it is on smashville since the platform can help recoverying.

Yea u will trip on the ghosts because people usually dash dance on ghosts -_- The ghosts are not so random. If the ghost is on the other side of the stage, for example, it wont appear. It's easier to evade gimps on smashville than here. Why? Just follow the platform. You know were is going, you will save more lives than this. And if u gimp someone at 30% and get saved by the ghost, there are two things:
a) You play MK
b) You play against olimar.
c)Shuttle loop and finish.
When a game allows something called tripping, a shy guy inst a problem. Getting one of you lasers stopped wont change that so much. And u see were are the shy guys, if they are coming, etc. If ur good you wont have problems with these guys. Maybe they will stop one laser, one waddle or one charged aura sphere. But its ur error, u didnt see the shy guy there cuz u like how cute is ur character and u are only able to look to him. Please take attention to the stage.

You can wall climb on FD, smashville, battlefield,... so its the most stupid argument i've ever heard.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

NEUTRAL=/=STARTER. THERE ARE NO NEUTRAL STAGES.
Now that you have learned an important thing, lets continue our discussion.

Okay that's true, but a starter is supposed to be neutral, at least more so then counterpicks, as else you would use them to counter, right?

Your gimping is limited on this stage. As it is on FD because the stage is larger and getting ur opponent offstage is difficultier, or it is on smashville since the platform can help recoverying.

Why is getting opponents of the stage harder in FD? And besides, on smashville the platform is up high, and gimping is usually lower, even then the platform is not caused by a seed so it's not random

Yea u will trip on the ghosts because people usually dash dance on ghosts -_-
Not what I said, if I get off i usually run to the edge and jump, and sakurai so seems to dislike that
The ghosts are not so random. If the ghost is on the other side of the stage, for example, it wont appear.
The ghosts are in fact caused by a random seed, if you want info on seeding you can search it up. Yes, there won't be 2 ghosts at the same time, but that's as far as it goes. You can't time count/see any sign of a platform in an actual match
It's easier to evade gimps on smashville than here. Why? Just follow the platform. You know were is going, you will save more lives than this. And if u gimp someone at 30% and get saved by the ghost, there are two things:
Yes, the opponent will wait till the platform is at your side before they gimp, brilliant... just brilliant.
a) You play MK
b) You play against olimar.
c)Shuttle loop and finish.
Just so happens to be 2 of the better characters, and they are both played frequently.
When a game allows something called tripping, a shy guy inst a problem. Getting one of you lasers stopped wont change that so much. And u see were are the shy guys, if they are coming, etc. If ur good you wont have problems with these guys. Maybe they will stop one laser, one waddle or one charged aura sphere. But its ur error, u didnt see the shy guy there cuz u like how cute is ur character and u are only able to look to him. Please take attention to the stage.
Well, the shy guys fly down pretty fast, and even then, I'll go back to marth for a second, sometimes you need to do retreating fairs, and then the shy guys get gay. Or even if you attack the shy guys might get in the way. really.
Or if you use FIHL with mario as defense mechanism, you might just be punished by these little flying devils

Oh and ZSS is hawt, it's hard to keep my eyes off her. sry baws

You can wall climb on FD, smashville, battlefield,... so its the most stupid argument i've ever heard.
To what extent? you can wall climb on FD, but not as recovery, well not in the way as you can in yoshis. you cant wall jump on smash ville, neither can you at battlefield (the crystal pillar mid-under the stage set apart here)
I.e. shiek has an easier time surviving Falcos spike cause she can just wall jump 2x and upB and woosh recovery. same counts for i.e. squirtle.

replies in red

 

[Marcbri]

a starter isn't supposed to be neutral since neutral DON'T exist in this game. Now you have to post reasons of why this stage wouldn't be a good option to be a starter stage ( if there are).

the platform in SV has saved me THOUSANDS of times more than the yoshi's one will ever do. It gives back your second jump when you are in the air, this helps a lot more than relying in the ghost platform.

Again you complaining about shy guys. you have eyes right? if there is a shy guy right in front of you, why do you act as if there's none?

and finally, you can only wall jump at the top of the walls in both sides of the stage, you can't wall jump at the bottom or even at the mid of the wall -_-. so you can wall jump more or less at the same distance of the ledge than in BF. wow broken.

 

[Greward]

To what extent? you can wall climb on FD, but not as recovery, well not in the way as you can in yoshis. you cant wall jump on smash ville, neither can you at battlefield (the crystal pillar mid-under the stage set apart here)
I.e. shiek has an easier time surviving Falcos spike cause she can just wall jump 2x and upB and woosh recovery. same counts for i.e. squirtle.

About Wall Climbs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXO2TbDnlUc

You can see the shy guys come. Thats all. I dont matter if they go slow, fast or if they make 8s when flying. You see them? Right. So thats all.

Nobody cares about low tier characters. If link gets saved by the ghost, it dont matter, he will be gimped again anyways.

No, your opponent can follow were the platform is moving, then he has more chances to evade the gimp.

Getting opponents out stage on FD's is more difficult because the stage is larger. So there's more stage, then getting someone out is harder. If u dont understand that, dont continue the discusion. Oh, in BF is dificultier to gimp too: if a opponent use his up B high, and he's arriving to the stage in helpless state, he can land on a platform and recover the double jump before than in FDs

If we keep our eye on those really small things that wont change a high level play match, then BF for the only starter stage. FD has no platforms, every playable stage has platforms, so counterpick. SV has the ballon and can gimp ness when using his up B, counterpick obviously.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

About Wall Climbs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXO2TbDnlUc

You can see the shy guys come. Thats all. I dont matter if they go slow, fast or if they make 8s when flying. You see them? Right. So thats all.
Yes that's true, but I guess our opinions are divided on this one. I'm just often too busy with the battle to actually look at the top of my screen every 5 seconds to scan for shy guys.

Nobody cares about low tier characters. If link gets saved by the ghost, it dont matter, he will be gimped again anyways.
As long as low tiers are played we should consider them a factor.

No, your opponent can follow were the platform is moving, then he has more chances to evade the gimp.
To bad that the platform is hardly at the side, and more often on the stage, leaving enough room to not get saved by it.

Getting opponents out stage on FD's is more difficult because the stage is larger. So there's more stage, then getting someone out is harder. If u dont understand that, dont continue the discusion.
So there's the size difference - does that make it less balanced? No. Does that favor certain characters? No. It just makes them alter their style abit, but not render it less effective
Oh, in BF is dificultier to gimp too: if a opponent use his up B high, and he's arriving to the stage in helpless state, he can land on a platform and recover the double jump before than in FDs
while getting a smash in his face sure

If we keep our eye on those really small things that wont change a high level play match, then BF for the only starter stage. FD has no platforms, every playable stage has platforms, so counterpick. SV has the ballon and can gimp ness when using his up B, counterpick obviously.
I thought 'low tiers don't matter', and things like having platforms won't put someone at a disadvantage, it just makes them alter their style abit.

replies in red, guess this more or less covers marcs points too

 

[Greward]

Yes that's true, but I guess our opinions are divided on this one. I'm just often too busy with the battle to actually look at the top of my screen every 5 seconds to scan for shy guys.

Nobody cares about low tier characters. If link gets saved by the ghost, it dont matter, he will be gimped again anyways.
As long as low tiers are played we should consider them a factor.

No, your opponent can follow were the platform is moving, then he has more chances to evade the gimp.
To bad that the platform is hardly at the side, and more often on the stage, leaving enough room to not get saved by it.

Getting opponents out stage on FD's is more difficult because the stage is larger. So there's more stage, then getting someone out is harder. If u dont understand that, dont continue the discusion.
So there's the size difference - does that make it less balanced? No. Does that favor certain characters? No. It just makes them alter their style abit, but not render it less effective
Oh, in BF is dificultier to gimp too: if a opponent use his up B high, and he's arriving to the stage in helpless state, he can land on a platform and recover the double jump before than in FDs
while getting a smash in his face sure

If we keep our eye on those really small things that wont change a high level play match, then BF for the only starter stage. FD has no platforms, every playable stage has platforms, so counterpick. SV has the ballon and can gimp ness when using his up B, counterpick obviously.
I thought 'low tiers don't matter', and things like having platforms won't put someone at a disadvantage, it just makes them alter their style abit.

LOL, shy guys are red and the background is green or blue, its just too easy to see them, u dont need to take attention, idk how cant u see where they are.

Ghost can help gimping and recovering. If u always "gimp" (how the hell you gimp a good player that dont use olimar without MK at low percent enough to not killing him with an aerial after him getting saved by the platform? Huh? We are talking about high level play) at the same point, you should know that the platform can appear, as you should know that if u run u can trip, as u should know that if a DDD throws waddles he can throw a fatty. This game has a lot of things luck-based and this is one of the less important. And nobody cares of link, ganondorf, falcon.

If the stage is larger, its difficultier to put a character offstage. That's obvious. And of course, a large stage gives advantage to campy characters -_-
FD is the only stage without platforms, then its not so starter because its the only one who has no platforms, then its different, its not that FD is the only good one and the ones who has platforms are bad. FD is not the best stage at all. And lol a character can change a lot depending on the platforms (Wario as the best example)
U can get the smash everywhere, on the ghost, on the ground or on a platform. So its pretty stupid what u said.

Nice, at least i won the wall jump part.

 

[Marcbri]

Why didn't you anwser to Grew's vid of Lucario getting back to the stage thanks to the wall? If you answer his points you have to answer all of them.

Yes that's true, but I guess our opinions are divided on this one. I'm just often too busy with the battle to actually look at the top of my screen every 5 seconds to scan for shy guys.
It's your problem if you can watch if there are shy guys in there, you don't even need to pay attention.

As long as low tiers are played we should consider them a factor.
Who cares about characters like Link? they're losing either way. Characters that aren't competitive can't change the competitive scene.

To bad that the platform is hardly at the side, and more often on the stage, leaving enough room to not get saved by it.

''Ghost can help gimping and recovering. If u always "gimp" (how the hell you gimp a good player that dont use olimar without MK at low percent enough to not killing him with an aerial after him getting saved by the platform? Huh? We are talking about high level play) at the same point, you should know that the platform can appear, as you should know that if u run u can trip, as u should know that if a DDD throws waddles he can throw a fatty. This game has a lot of things luck-based and this is one of the less important. And nobody cares of link, ganondorf, falcon.'' this

So there's the size difference - does that make it less balanced? No. Does that favor certain characters? No. It just makes them alter their style abit, but not render it less effective

Are you kidding me? FD doesn't favor certain characters? do you play competitive smash? And you say it just alter the style of some characters a bit without being bad for anyone.... Wario gets ***** in this stage, it isn't good for MK or squirtle either because they get grab relase gayed while they don't in other stages.This stage is awesome for Cgs and for camping because of the lack of platforms giving an important advantage to this characters. ( really IC in FD are almost unbeatable, but we don't make it a cp because of it) If you say that FD doesn't give advantage to some characters you clearly don't know nothing about the game -.-


while getting a smash in his face sure

He's talking of for example sidebing with falco to the highest platform. sure its hard to attack someone in the ghost platform but you can easily smash someone in the highest platform because you teleport there in 2 frames and charge an Ike's Fsmash... it's actually EASIER to punish someone going to the ghost platform rather than punishing someone going to the highest platfrom in BF.


I thought 'low tiers don't matter', and things like having platforms won't put someone at a disadvantage, it just makes them alter their style abit.

Then Having Shy guys or a platform won't put someone at a disadvantage, it just will make the characters alter their style a bit -____- ( and still you are wrong because ALL the stage put some characters at disadvantage because they may suck on platforms/small stages/noplatforms/large stages... and it gives advantages to other characters. If you can't see that you shouldn't be arguing on stages legality.

replies in blue

 

[Blad01]

It's your problem if you can watch if there are shy guys in there, you don't even need to pay attention.

Like the fish in JJ ?
(lol)

Who cares about characters like Link? they're losing either way. Characters that aren't competitive can't change the competitive scene.

I care. A lot of people care.
So I don't agree with that, again.

Then Having Shy guys or a platform won't put someone at a disadvantage, it just will make the characters alter their style a bit -____- ( and still you are wrong because ALL the stage put some characters at disadvantage because they may suck on platforms/small stages/noplatforms/large stages... and it gives advantages to other characters. If you can't see that you shouldn't be arguing on stages legality.

If ALL the stages give an advantage / disadvantage... How can you know if it is an advantage / disadvantage ? To determine what a "disadvantage" or "advantage" is, you must determine what is the neutral state of a character first. You need a "neutral" stage to compare with.

 

[Marcbri]

Like the fish in JJ ?
(lol)

JJ isn't cp/banned because of the fish -.-, it's like this because there are characters who have TOO MUCH advantage there like Falco, ROB, DK...

in fact the fish is predictable and appears on intervals of 7 seconds ( I think xD)

I care. A lot of people care.
So I don't agree with that, again.

It's still a couple of characters. The balloon in SV still can gimp Ness and we have it as a starter, right?

If ALL the stages give an advantage / disadvantage... How can you know if it is an advantage / disadvantage ? To determine what a "disadvantage" or "advantage" is, you must determine what is the neutral state of a character first. You need a "neutral" stage to compare
with.

there aren't neutral stages, but you can see that ICs are better in FD than in all other stages, than Marth is better in BF than he is in other stages or that Wario is way worse in FD than he is in other stages.

When this advantage is beyond broken ( MK/Wario/G&W in rainbow cruise, Falco/DK/ROB in Japes... or there are important random elements ( Norfair, Brinstar, Pictochat,Frigate) we have to decide if this advantages/random effects are minor so the stage is starter, if they can be CP so both players can be ready for the problems of the stages or if it must be banned because it's really unbalanced with some characters(Luigi's mansion) or really really random

Again, replies in blue.

 

[Greward]

Like the fish in JJ ?
(lol)
I hope u were irony, because when the fish of JJ appears u can do nothing (ur on water if it is going to kill u) [/CO, and the fish kill while the shy guy dont do nothing. U can hit them, ok. But shy guys appear on the stage, and main argument about them is that they can stop projectiles. Then there's space between the 2 opponents, then u are not being pressured and u can see them without problems and evade them /not shooting there/etc. But it is so mmuch minor problem that is stupid continue discussing about this.


I care. A lot of people care.
So I don't agree with that, again.
Ok. When a link, ganondorf or falcon win or left top16 in an important tourney, advise me



If ALL the stages give an advantage / disadvantage... How can you know if it is an advantage / disadvantage ? To determine what a "disadvantage" or "advantage" is, you must determine what is the neutral state of a character first. You need a "neutral" stage to compare with.
This stage is perfectly playable and dont give a major advantage or disadvantage. Compare it with Bf, is the best starter. Or SV, not FD.

lihuadsbfasg

 

[K@0S]

Lol at thinking Wario sucks on FD. It's even his best stage with SV in certain match-ups (MK, just to give an example, and I think the vs MK match-up is quite important; it's his worst against DDD, but like almost all the cast who get CGed by DDD). He can aircamp better because he has all the room he wants. But I won't give more details, it's not the subject here.

I have to repeat that it is the addition of several factors that makes us think it should be a counterpick.
Of course if you only take into account wall climbing, it looks stupid. If you only take into account the ghosts, it looks stupid too (SV platform etc). You can make every argument of that kind look stupid because alone their impact is relatively low (to be honest I do think some of them aren't low at all but let's admit that point, it doesn't really matter).

And seriously, Greward and Marc, stop with your excessive irony, it doesn't make you sound cleverer at all.

 

[Marcbri]

Lol at thinking Wario sucks on FD. It's even his best stage with SV in certain match-ups (MK, just to give an example, and I think the vs MK match-up is quite important; it's his worst against DDD, but like almost all the cast who get CGed by DDD). He can aircamp better because he has all the room he wants. But I won't give more details, it's not the subject here.

I won't speak about that because it would be off-topic but I'll just leave it as: NO.

I have to repeat that it is the addition of several factors that makes us think it should be a counterpick.
Of course if you only take into account wall climbing, it looks stupid. If you only take into account the ghosts, it looks stupid too (SV platform etc). You can make every argument of that kind look stupid because alone their impact is relatively low (to be honest I do think some of them aren't low at all but let's admit that point, it doesn't really matter).

Ok, so all things together. Those would be shy guys, irregular floor and the ghost platform.
Wall climbing is a stupid reason is it alone or with other factors, I can accept the other 3, but not this one.

then, SV has 2 of this 3 reasons, balloons can kill you when you are using upb with ness( won't happen usually but shy guys won't really screw you up usually either) and the platform in SV will help you a lot more than the one in yoshi's since it's there more often ( and if you say: but it is too high to say anyone, it still gives back the second jump, and if you make it to the platform you are most likely not getting gimped until next time you are out of the stage.

So, SV has 2 of 3 factors ( the one left being, irregular floor) and we have never though of making it a CP, in fact there's many people that believe this is the fairest/closer to neutral stage in the game. So the question would be , it's being unable to cancel a couple of moves with a couple of characters in a couple of places in the stage, a valid enough reason to make Yoshi's a cp stage?( because that's the only difference it has with SV) And my answer is: no, it isn't.


And seriously, Greward and Marc, stop with your excessive irony, it doesn't make you sound cleverer at all.

At least I try to be objective, it's the worst starter stage for my main but just because that I won't deny it can be an starter stage

replies in blue

 

[Greward]

Lol at thinking Wario sucks on FD. It's even his best stage with SV in certain match-ups (MK, just to give an example, and I think the vs MK match-up is quite important; it's his worst against DDD, but like almost all the cast who get CGed by DDD). He can aircamp better because he has all the room he wants.

Top french player words. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=182253

All the special issues together arent enough important.

 

[K@0S]

So Marcbri, are you suggesting that people who defend that's it's a counterpick aren't objective ? Well then, put it in starters.

Top french player words. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=182253

All the special issues together arent enough important.

Stop your troll, it's useless (or perhaps it's not, I see here a way to make frenchies sound stupid) and dumb, and most of all about something offtopic. Did you read the reasons why it's considered bad ? Well, they are the same for every characters that can't camp with projectiles.

Smashville and FD are your ideal stages.

= about the vs MK match-up, probably the most important.

Anyway, your first argument was still that putting FD in counter is justified if we put YI in counters because Wario sucks on it.

 

[Marcbri]

I didn't say that you weren't objectives, I just said that even if I'm using irony I'm being objective, and that's what is important.So, with that solved I'd like you to answer my last point :

Ok, so all things together. Those would be shy guys, irregular floor and the ghost platform.
Wall climbing is a stupid reason is it alone or with other factors, I can accept the other 3, but not this one.

then, SV has 2 of this 3 reasons, balloons can kill you when you are using upb with ness( won't happen usually but shy guys won't really screw you up usually either) and the platform in SV will help you a lot more than the one in yoshi's since it's there more often ( and if you say: but it is too high to say anyone, it still gives back the second jump, and if you make it to the platform you are most likely not getting gimped until next time you are out of the stage.

So, SV has 2 of 3 factors ( the one left being, irregular floor) and we have never though of making it a CP, in fact there's many people that believe this is the fairest/closer to neutral stage in the game. So the question would be , it's being unable to cancel a couple of moves with a couple of characters in a couple of places in the stage, a valid enough reason to make Yoshi's a cp stage?( because that's the only difference it has with SV) And my answer is: no, it isn't.

 

[Greward]

Stop your troll, it's useless (or perhaps it's not, I see here a way to make frenchies sound stupid) and dumb, and most of all about something offtopic. Did you read the reasons why it's considered bad ? Well, they are the same for every characters that can't camp with projectiles.
I'm not going to discuss with you, ur post about wario explained everything about you, ir was too much epic! Oh, marcbri already said what i could said. If this is counterpick, FD and SV too.

Raptor Jesus Bless Us

 

[K@0S]

Ok, I won't discuss with you anymore neither, because your trolls here explain everything about you too.

 

[Marcbri]

Instead of calling me troll you could expose your arguments explaining why I'm wrong and why you are right. but well, I guess it's easier to say that.

 

[K@0S]

I wasn't talking to you, Marcbri :/. I'll answer your post later.

 

[Greward]

He needs time to "think" hahah

sorry im still loling about ur post XDDD

 

[K@0S]

Well, what I say is right in my post, if you take away "Lol at thinking Wario sucks on FD" :/. Best stage against MK, worst against DDD, and he can aircamp better. It's because of other arguments that FD is bad in a lot of match-ups (projectiles, you can avoid his zoning and camp back etc.). But it looks like the way I said it sounds funny to you.. Then it's easy to make you laugh at something (like every trollers).

 

[Marcbri]

Ok sorry Kaos, I though you were speaking at both because of the s in trolls xD

Ok, I won't discuss with you anymore neither, because your trolls here explain everything about you too.

anyway , let's not talk more about this and keep talking about yoshis xD

 

[Greward]

He dont aircamp better since he must fall on the ground and has no platforms to rely, then he has no range and he gets punished when falling the ground, this dont happen on platform stages since wario dont have to fall on the ground, he can fall on the platforms. Platform camping=air camping, for if u dont know.
And wario is better against MK on SV than on FD. But if a wario counterpicks FD, just pick yoshi and infinite and camp him to hell.
Wario has 2 recognized disadvantaged matchups. On FD, marth, zelda, sheik, falco, ike, DDD, IC,peach, zss, yoshi and probably more. So much disadvantages wont put a character third on the tier list, probably mid when some of them are completely ****, then he sucks on there.

 

[Blad01]

Smashville considered as the fairest stage ? This is all about opinion :/

Ok, so all things together. Those would be shy guys, irregular floor and the ghost platform.
Wall climbing is a stupid reason is it alone or with other factors, I can accept the other 3, but not this one.

then, SV has 2 of this 3 reasons, balloons can kill you when you are using upb with ness( won't happen usually but shy guys won't really screw you up usually either) and the platform in SV will help you a lot more than the one in yoshi's since it's there more often ( and if you say: but it is too high to say anyone, it still gives back the second jump, and if you make it to the platform you are most likely not getting gimped until next time you are out of the stage.

So, SV has 2 of 3 factors ( the one left being, irregular floor) and we have never though of making it a CP, in fact there's many people that believe this is the fairest/closer to neutral stage in the game. So the question would be , it's being unable to cancel a couple of moves with a couple of characters in a couple of places in the stage, a valid enough reason to make Yoshi's a cp stage?( because that's the only difference it has with SV) And my answer is: no, it isn't.

1. Wall Climbing is not a very good argument, I agree.
2. You can't really compare Shy Guys with SV's balloon. There is only one balloon, while there are several shy guys. Moreover, Shy Guys are annoying for more characters, and restrict more moves of these characters, than the only example you can get (Ness' Up B). Your example only concerns one character, and one single move, that is usually not done that high.
3. The platform in SV is predictable, slow, and high (it doesn't help you while you're falling to your death, but only if you aim at it). The player who is edgeguarding can easily predict it.
4. So, SV doesn't have 2 of the 3 factors, no. I guess you could say he has 50% of these 2 factors And that only makes 33,3 % of the 3 factors.
5. Besides, I wouldn't count "Irregular ground and platform" as equal to "Unpredictable ghosts" and "Shy Guys", since it's my principal argument.
(6. Bonus point : If "Smashville [had] these 2 factors out of 3", he would probably be borderline starter. And yes, the third factor, "irregular ground and platform", added to the other 2, would be a valid enough reason to make YI a CP)

(By the way, Kaos is right, we should not define criterias for CP, but only for starters and banned stages. So that is not because YI is a useless CP that it doesn't fall in that category. PS, by example, is pretty much a useless CP)

EDIT : @Greward : "He doesn't", not "He don't". You're not helping me for my English exams :/

 

[Marcbri]

Why is PS a useless CP? I don't get it. many people use it.

 

[Greward]

EDIT : @Greward : "He doesn't", not "He don't". You're not helping me for my English exams :/

haha sorry, i write fast and i always fail on these things XDD on my english exams i do it correctly
SV ballon is worst because everybody wants to hit it lol (joking for if someone is ******** and wants to quote this). The difference between the ballon and the shy guys is that you can see the shy guys coming(they appears from upwards, then u have time to see them going down), but not the ballon (because it appears from the sides and they are "dark"), so the ballon can help to being gimped (for example when using ike's forward special). You said before that if it have minimal effects on the match it makes it counterpick, then SV is counterpick, because ness, ike ... can be gimped due to the ballon. Imagine u loose one match because of this... Terrible, isnt it? CP. I'm using ur same arguments!
As the SV platform is predictable, u can use it a lot better than yoshi's. Then it helps to evade being gimped a lot more than relying on a thing u dont know. But the difference is that ghost is random, isnt it? But if u are smart ghost wont be a problem. Imagina u have gimped him, u can be flying where the ghost can appear, and if it appear then smash him. Or wait on the ledge and if the ghost save him finish with an aerial / shuttle loop. There are a lot of ways to work around the ghost. Oh, its maybe difficult... weren't we talking about high level play? Then, when 2 good players are playing on YI, if they know what the stage can give the effects of it will be minimal.
Shy guys effects are situational as much. They maybe stop a lazer or a yoshi's egg, but when people use these projectiles there is space between them, and this means that the shy guy can maybe stop some damage, but nothing more. About getting more hitlag... if u are stupid and u dodge when ur opponent is attacking with a shy guy on ur face its ur problem, u should adapt to each stage.
About irregular ground, BF's platforms dont let peach to infinite wario, as the same time yoshi's irregular ground CAN make u fail an AC.

 

[Marcbri]

Grew about what you said of autocancels Blad answered this:

SH AC, or Smah in Ness's case, are essential to a character, or are at least basic moves. Imagine if you weren't able with Falco to SH Dair, by example.

The moves you list are just a little trick given to a character (wolf), and an additional abilitie (wall jump). They are not essential.

but then again, Ike can cancel his fair if he does a full jump ( <3 Ike's fair lol). but in BF there are some places of the stage where you can't do a FJ Fair without lag ( below the platforms) because you end up in the platforms with ending lag. this happens too with his Dair and Uair, as well as Snake's Fair, G&W's Fair, DK's Fair and Bowser's Uair and Bair

same happens with Snake, if you do double jump Nair/Dair you can get a Nair/Dair with no lag, but you can't under BF's platform.

I think all these examples explain that you can't do all your moves freely anywhere in the stage ( as your criteria for starter says) even in some starter stages ( BF). My example last time was more specific, that Wolf thing, but what I've said now is basically the same as not being able to SH cancel some moves in YI.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Wow this was possibly my most succesful troll ever.

 

[Lord Chair]

Lol I just read this age-old thread through.

Kaos sayin' FD is Wario's worst stage against DDD? Try Yoshi's and see how you like it.