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stage discussion *currently discussing Halberd and Delfino Plaza*

Tewx2

Smash Ace
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Who cares what could have happened? They lost. Dwelling on "I could have won if I had done X, or if only Y had happened" is how you lose your next tourny set.

Horrible analogy, and you know it. Not to mention it's an uneeded one. All you had to say was "I wish you guys would comment on the mindset and control settings" and boom ur good. But no, you had to show off your expertise in a unrelated subject in smash.

The war was not about slavery, but had the confederacy won, it's very likely that slavery would have continued to be practiced for a longer period of time. So while the war may not have been about slavery the outcome of the war had a heavy influence on it, and personally I find that enough to get upset over.

But slavery is a much different story to those who's ancestors were the slave owner's and not the slaves themselves
 

saviorslegacy

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If you don't see how that can be offensive than you truly are ignorant.

Civil War was over States' Rights....with the main issue about those rights being the issue of having slaves.

You have a confederate flag hanging in your room?? Kill yourself.

SOuth wouldn't have won anyways. Not enough men and resources the North was far larger. Also once Sherman took over ripping through Georgia and burning everything it was pretty much game over.
I guess I can say where mentioning the south would be offensive, but it is silly to be offended by it. My family is military and saw action in the Vietnam war and the family members were oppressed because of it. I guess I should hate late 60's hippie music and hippies in general? No harm was done to me, but there was harm done to my family.
I honestly don't care, what's done is done.
My people were forced to walk from their homes to Oklahoma. I don't get sore about it, I am proud to be Cherokee.
I'm also German. My Great Grandfather left Germany after WW1 (well.... a little ways after... 1938 to be exact) and came to America, Illinois to be exact. People oppressed him because he was German, especially during WW2. No one was willing to hire him, so he lived off of the land. I saw a poster that looked something like this in an antique shop in Savannah: http://library.flawlesslogic.com/poster.gif
I don't get sore over any of these, because it doesn't matter.
**** happens, this is a ****ed up world.
Now in Portsmouth you have a football game every year that EVERYONE including the adults go to. That game is West vs Portsmouth. You see, a lot of Portsmouth high school attendees are black or a wigger. West is stonch country music and tobacco lovin red necks (I am West BTW).
The game always turns into a race war. Portsmouth yells and calls West Jesus huggers, crackers, red necks so on and so forth. West calls them ******s, wiggers, homies so on and so forth. It is literately a race war. So mentioning something like the South or the Confederacy doesn't even come close to qualifying as a racist or offensive thing in my book.



The Civil War was hardly about slavery. That was just a side thing. Did you know that the war was frowned upon by practically the entire nation. People complain about todays war, try having a smaller population, food shortages, destroyed cities and 700,000 dead! Yeah, people wanted the war to end. Lincoln gave terms several times saying that the slaves would remain slaves. You see, back then the South's economy revolved around slavery. If you removed slavery you would hurt their bountiful economy. Today we use computers and machines in place of slaves or cheap work from Ireland (Corporate slaves if you will).
Now, another thing that most people do not know is how the United States Government worked prior to 1860ish. You see, we were Colonies before the Revolution and we kept that mindset after the Revolution. You were a South Carolinian, New Yorker, Virginian or Kentuckian, not an American. Your states took care of the political stuff. Congress would get together for the soul purpose of checking the states. There was a big scare that the states would become un-united and the next Europe would arise from the ashes on the Constitution and with it, many years of war.
I can't remember exactly when, but the Government started shifting towards Congress being the head honcho over politics instead of the filter.
This is what started the South's fire, tariffs is what broke the Camel's back (or at least South Carolina's back). There is more to it, and slaves was part of it, but it wasn't all of it as the history books would have you believe.

Anyways, the slaves were freed at the end basically IMO to cripple the South's economy. No more cheap labor, no more bountiful economy.
It was a way to keep them from rising again.


I should kill myself because I have a CSA flag in my room?
That flag to me stands for Rebellion. I am a lover of rebellion and death to oppression. I love Gandhi and he is why I have such an interest in the Buhdist religion. Martin Luther is awesome just because of the balls it takes to oppose the church in Medieval times. Martin Luther King Junior is also cool. Loved the bedroom though. xD lol
Rebellion makes the world go round. At the heart of many historical events there is a Rebellion. America is founded on rebellion, blacks got their rights through rebellion, the church no longer controls everything because of rebellion, sin is here because of rebellion and Satan is Satan because of rebellion.


Bull crap, the South could have won. What, do you actually think that the Union civi's would throw the amrs up and yell "LORDY LORDY! You didn't just do what I thought you just did." In fact, a lot of the Southern and Union soldiers would meet up and trade tobacco (South) for something that the North had that I have forgotten about........
No, the War was politically driven, not populace driven. if Thomas Jackson would have reached DC and burnt it to the ground and killed Abraham, then the war would have been over, period. The South would retreat out of the North and probably build up defenses around its harbors and in Kentucky and Virginia.
Also, the North was not far larger and the South had a lot of resources. They just got their ports destroyed/blocked. Without the ability to trade their economy fell apart.
You also got your times mixed up. Sherman didn't go on his burning and conquering spree until after Thomas Jackson was dead.





There, I have said my piece.

@Tutu
I care about stages and the lay of the land in a fight. The South knew this better than anyone, that is why I mentioned it.

@Judo
Calling me a cracker, calling Mars a ******, calling Mario a dago or Ankoku yellow is not racist. No one here is being oppressed, cept maybe Mario. No, oppression would be if I would go kick his *** or burn his stuff, you know, true acts of hatred, not political correctness bull ****.
That being said, I was wrong for calling him a yellow. It was kinda uncalled for.
 

#HBC | Scary

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*Sigh* facepalm.gif

Though I get the comparison completely and I kinda like the enthusiasm in the idea, not everyone warms up to the idea. Touchy subject is touchy to say the least.

Perhaps we get back to the discussions here because I'm learning a ton from this thread. Seriously.
 

saviorslegacy

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Yeah I have to agree. Arguing over the Civil War isn't exactly on topic.
It is also wrong to just say "no more fighting/arguing" while in the middle os a dispute. So the only way for things to end nicely is for it to boil down.
 

saviorslegacy

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Anyways, what should we discuss next?
I honestly think that Green Greens and Brinstar as freakin legit for Sheik. I went to Green Greens once today when I was Sheik, I was able to use the spike twice and killed wit it once. I ultimately lost the match though. :(
 

#HBC | Scary

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Discuss Brinstar, I don't know this stage and have begun working on a Wario that I do not want to take seriously and would like to keep him on the bench lol. I was never to comfy with Zelda there either.
 

Judo777

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Yea seriously end this discussion on the civil war. get back to the topic of this discussion. Seriously no matter how much you want to disagree or whatever just end the discussion. Topic like this get closed down all the time back to stages.

And i guess saviours just be careful with touchy references is all I'm sayin.
 

saviorslegacy

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I edited my post. -_- Disappoints me......

Okay, so the next discussion is on Brinstar.
I want to discuss stage use at Norfair though, and if anyone wants to comment on previous discussions go ahead and do so.
 

Tewx2

Smash Ace
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It's Sheik's worst stage in the game. Even characters that site it as their worst stage have an easier time than Sheik. There's no space. If our opponent puts the pressure on us, were ****ed. Our recovery becomes limited, because vanish goes through the ledge unless you appear right in front of it. And since it can't sweetspot the ledge, during the lava, our recovery becomes so telegraphed that it's painful. If the lava isn't high enough we can chain through the lava without getting hit. , but then we have to jump get-up so the telegraph is still there. The extended hitboxes mess up combos, and even though we can decay ftilt on the sides, the only chance we'll get is during recovery and after killing or being killed. After killing your opponent will be at 0 making him unlockable. If he's recovering, he's probably at 100+, since were so weak, so he's not lockable anyway. So unless you get killed with your opponent at like 50 decaying ftilt isn't a valid option.

Sonic is the only character that I would even consider fighting here, but sure as he'll not as my cp.

I should mention 80% of the time you cp this against characters who are bad here you'll find them change to MK. This is not a good Sheik stage in theory or practice.
 

saviorslegacy

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Are you serious? Worst stage?

If you are having trouble with people pressuring you just use your chain to escape. I have had people take me to the ledge often and DIing backwards + tether recovery is always the best option. When you grab the ledge drop during your invincible frames and Bair if they are behind you or do w/e fits the situation.

Her recovery isn't that telegraphed. Sure, the opponent knows you are going to chain the ledge, but which one? There are 3 ledge on each side. You can fast fall and grab the lower one after you chain. Also, at this stage your options while on the ledge are finally good since you can perform a rising Uair and cancel it, Fair> regrab the ledge, Uair through the stage and you aren't forced to grab the same ledge again anyways!

Nah, both Metroid stages are excellent for forcing the opponent to the top ledges. All you need to do is let the stage do the work. Acid/lava will force them onto the platform for ya.
You can also just take the fight there with rising auto canceled Uair.

Both stages also help Sheik kill in another way, you can go into hoop damage and still recover.
This means that you can Fair people right into the kill wall way easier than you can at FD or BF just because you can get so close.


Ya aren't thinkin like a reb! (I'm referring to all rebs BTW.)
 

saviorslegacy

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Oh.... we're still discussing Norfair. *looks at title
You had a good argument though....

Anyways... someone please name the cons of Norfair.
 

Tewx2

Smash Ace
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Oh I've had two fails today, when you said next were talking about Norfair I thought that meant we were moving on, but it was just a precursor .

I'll post tomorrow(later today technically) since I feel like Ill just fail a 3rd time xD
 

saviorslegacy

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*updated
We are now discussing Brinstar. Please critique the OP since most of it was theory crafting and guess work.
 

riocosta123

Smash Journeyman
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I probably wouldn't take DK to Brinstar since he can control a ton of the stage without really moving coupled with his obscene KO power.
 

Judo777

Smash Master
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don't CP olimar to BF by the way its his best neutral.

Also definitely dont CP, Zss, DK, or Ike to brinstar. Ike is pretty good there and its zss' best stage. Also DK is amazing here.
 

-Mars-

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Something I wanted to say before I forget is that while playing on PS2 today because new stagelist has it legal I found out that DACUS is incredibly safe on that stage.

On the treadmill part you can DACUS and then cancel the lag by grabbing the edge...also you can DACUS the full length of the stage on the ice part lmao.

BRINSTAR:

I actually don't mind the stage....it's just that most characters are amazing there. GnW, MK, ZSS, DK, Luigi, Ike, Lucario etc.

You can decay your ftilt as much as you want, the ceiling is low, and the lava keeps you from getting gimped as often. In fact i've beaten the majority of MK's that have counterpicked me here for whatever reason might be due to my recovery being safer. Other than that this stage doesn't really enhance Sheik in any way and messes up grab releases and stuff.
 

Judo777

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Something I wanted to say before I forget is that while playing on PS2 today because new stagelist has it legal I found out that DACUS is incredibly safe on that stage.

On the treadmill part you can DACUS and then cancel the lag by grabbing the edge...also you can DACUS the full length of the stage on the ice part lmao.

BRINSTAR:

I actually don't mind the stage....it's just that most characters are amazing there. GnW, MK, ZSS, DK, Luigi, Ike, Lucario etc.

You can decay your ftilt as much as you want, the ceiling is low, and the lava keeps you from getting gimped as often. In fact i've beaten the majority of MK's that have counterpicked me here for whatever reason might be due to my recovery being safer. Other than that this stage doesn't really enhance Sheik in any way and messes up grab releases and stuff.
yea man you should have seen me CPing PS2 at MLG and telling people how DACUS on ice is the best show in town lol
 

#HBC | Scary

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So I used Norfair for the first time in tourney against HRnut, and I came within a breath of beating him there. I was sooooooooo close.

*Straps in to learn Brinstar.

Sorry I've been so useless in stage contribution. Neutrals and Green Greens are usually me.
 

Judo777

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Green greens is such a dumb stage tho lol. GG is literally the stage i will counterpick when i know i am completely outclassed in skill. Seriously if i ever played like M2K in tournament i would be counterpicking Green greens and hope for lucky crap.

My buddy crash CPed DEHF there for the same reason and almost beat him lol
 

#HBC | Scary

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I always thought Marth on Brinstar is bad.

In fact, aside from being able to decay our tilt, we are hurt badly by the stage. Judo....how do you win here? Teach me lol.
 

Judo777

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I always thought Marth on Brinstar is bad.

In fact, aside from being able to decay our tilt, we are hurt badly by the stage. Judo....how do you win here? Teach me lol.
Wait i win on brinstar? Lol. I occaisionally get CPed here by my buddy crash who plays weeg. I can usually win but its not a great stage for sheik. The secret however is to control the bottom center and use sheiks vertical airspeed to pressure people above you. once you get dislodged try and work ur way around the platforms looking for openings cause u really need to get back to the bottom again. That's about all i got lol
 

#HBC | Scary

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It all sounds good to me. I'll take any advice here because I am dreadful here. Like, "I'll waste my ban here, regardless of who you use because I hate the stage" dreadful.
 

saviorslegacy

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Wait i win on brinstar? Lol. I occaisionally get CPed here by my buddy crash who plays weeg. I can usually win but its not a great stage for sheik. The secret however is to control the bottom center and use sheiks vertical airspeed to pressure people above you. once you get dislodged try and work ur way around the platforms looking for openings cause u really need to get back to the bottom again. That's about all i got lol
That's pretty much how I feel Sheik should play this stage. Heavens forbid if they actually knock you towards the ledge and start to pressure you. @-@
I have found it is sometimes smarter to eat acid and rise threw the floor and only have to deal with a foe below you instead of that crazy madness they were putting you threw at the edge.


I think I am going to start rating the stages.
Update tonight BTW.
 

-Cross-

Smash Ace
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For Halberd, do not CP MK or Pikachu there. MK's sharking is too much of an advantage on the first part of the stage. Also why take Pikachu here? If he gets his CG on you, he has a much easier time killing you with u-smash at the end because of the low ceiling. Also what's the reasoning behind CP'ing Snake here, besides u-smash will kill him at a lower %? If anything, his utilt will kill you at an even lower one.

Also for Delfino. lol Why is there a Pokemon there for CP? And don't take Peach here. You can not gimp her on this stage. She has her float, a one time neutral B stall, and an upB which keeps her in the air forever, which effectively means she won't get gimped most of the time. All her tools can essentially keep her in the air long enough for the next transformation to come out, and in the water, her float is too good. That's all for now
 

saviorslegacy

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My reasoning is I throw match ups around when it is the first update and let others whittle it down.
The final whittling is where I show this thread to every character board at let them argue over stage CP's. Boy ain't that gonna be fun!?
 

BRoomer
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ftilt usmash windows and GR windows are much much wider on Halberd (for the kill). MK's planking isn't bad IMO. thats what the plats are for I'd take pika here with out much fear but I have a zelda.

Delfino, you have grab off option on MK and lost of room to move around, again the plats force MK out from under the stage during the short moving sections. at some point the ftilt usmash kill range is amazing. like the three pillars for example.
 

-Cross-

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Hmmm, Delfino is certainly an interesting stage. I always thought stages where MK can shark would be bad but there definitely are some aspects of that stage which Sheik could take advantage of. Yeah, if I had a Zelda I wouldn't mind Pika on Halberd. Even if you have a Zelda though... is it CP worthy?
 

Juushichi

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I absolutely love Halberd, but I'll agree that you don't really want to take MK there. Sharking... eh, I dunno. I don't think it's that much of an issue for the first part. If he wants to shark you, just go on the top platform and play smart. The biggest thing to be worried about on that is getting gimped or killed at low %'s. That's what makes this stage a bad idea vs MK (plus, I personally find his height annoying to deal with. I just do sheik/MK on flat, low-movement stages). I wouldn't take GW here, either.

I take Snake's here all the time with both Mario and Sheik. Trust me when I say you can navigate and use the stage better than he can. He'll set up mines and all that type of BS, but you have aerials that can pester, grabs that get him back in the air and platforms to abuse pretty much the whole match (plus it can help you kill) and the stage is large. I don't know what more you could ask for in that MU, really.

Oh yeah, Zelda's a decent choice (MU dependent) when you have the lead for Halberd. You can force approaches better, move around the way you want and her aerials (i think utilt, lol, pokes above platforms) can punish people on platforms. Let's not forget that usmash kills earlier here.

I don't feel any sort of way about Delfino Plaza. I don't typically go there by choice, but I'm not super opposed the the stage. It's neither here or there when I play Sheik.
 

saviorslegacy

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I like Halberd vs MK because we can end our f-tilt lock on him with an USmash and kill. At the second part GR> USmash kills at about 73%.
 

BRoomer
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you can do that on mosy normal stages the window for decay is just wider. I'm gonna start posting vids because I kill very very frequently with single ftilt -> usmash. It isn't all that bad once you get confident with decay and percents. only issue is you have to fish hard because there is a ceiling.
 
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