stage discussion *currently discussing Halberd and Delfino Plaza*

[riocosta123]

The "getting his gyro" part is one of the commitments you are talking about. Like I said, it's not unbeatable, but to act like ROB doesn't benefit from it is kind of silly.

 

[SuSa]

You can ignore his gyro and punish him for trying to commit to getting it.

He fires it in a relatively neutral state if he's not using it to punish a commitment or force a reaction of you from offstage.

I have an entire paragraph of my thread referring to exceptions where all projectiles are good because it forces a reaction of "Do something or die" and "if you do the WRONG something, you die from me." type of deal.

I could post a vid from the Sheik boards showing such a use of the Gyro, where the ROB through the Gyro up to force an airdodge from Sheik and then the ROB bair'd Sheik.

The Sheik's better option at that point would have to airdodged to CATCH the item, then instant throw it down to cancel the airdodge. This escapes the airdodge earlier and the ROB risks getting hit by his own Gyro.

It was simply a matter of choosing the wrong option.

 

[riocosta123]

Of course, he can react to you trying to punish (this can repeat ad infinitum), especially since he has the range advantage.

Listing all the possible options doesn't negate the efficacy of said guessing game. It seems we're having two different conversations. I can also list my options on how to not get gimped by MK offstage, but it doesn't mean I'm at an advantage in that situation.

 

[SuSa]

Depends how charged the Gyro was.

Also during his commitment he is unable to move. Unlike MK being offstage gimping you.

 

[riocosta123]

That was merely an example, but yes, I'll agree that ROB's camping is not as difficult to deal with as being offstage vs MK.

 

[SuSa]

Anyways, the scarier part about ROB isn't his camp game but his gimp game. You want a stage that has a short distance to the ledge/safe place.

Which makes FD bad in that regard.

 

[Judo777]

I'm sry guys but I have to disagree with you about robs camping game. Rob's gyro is amazing. Dont get me wrong its not like ur typical camping tools but it definitely has its uses i play 2 good robs regularly. 1 is mister eric and the other is a local and while he isnt that experienced at smash he has nasty stage control from other fighters. I also play rob a decent amount.

Rob's gyro has alot going for it. Like rica said its not about hitting you its about controlling space. As rob i rarely charge my gyro ever. The important thing is getting it on the stage. Once rob has it out on the stage it gives him a nice hitbosx to stand behind and lob tilts over it and harass with lasers. If you are ever pressuring him with a top on the field he gets a freeroll behind the top that u cant punish. The best part about gyro is its use while its spinning. As an item it becomes an ok thing but while its spinning is where its good. You arent allowed to stand there and if I can get behind it u cant run up and shield it anymore cause i can grab you.

It also allows him a safe place to land when recovering. Shoot the top and land behind it. If you shield it, cool he can try and plant it again later. Grabbing the top and holding sometimes works but only for characters with pretty good b moves. Because while z dropping and aerials are nice the fact that you cant be moving initally is a huge hindrance and you cant fight even close to as well while maintaining an item. By taking his top you are limiting ur options in an attempt to not give rob a tool to control the stage. In turn he is controlling you tho.

Robs gyro is a great projectile i mean really really good i would kill for sheik to have 1. People just need to understand that it should be used more like snakes mine than a projectile. But you can actually throw it to a spot your not on and pick it up too so its even better than a snake mine.

Laser just support the top thats its primary function.

 

[SuSa]

Snake's mine is ****ing horrible when opponent's aren't idiots and know to rid of it A.S.A.P. This is coming from a Snake main.

 

[Judo777]

Snake's mine is ****ing horrible when opponent's aren't idiots and know to rid of it A.S.A.P. This is coming from a Snake main.

I know snakes mine is bad but you cant throw snake mines. And you cant always get rid of robs top cause if the rob is smart they will shoot it when you cant run up and shield it immeidately trust me if the rob knows what they are doing they should have no issue getting it out.

 

[SuSa]

I can think of about 5 different ways to grab the Gyro or otherwise render it useless.

It's a "my opponent is offstage let me force them into a bad position" type move.

Glide toss at you--> forces shield--> they get a grab

That's why you shouldn't shield. Crouch instead.

When I get my working copy of Brawl I'll show the Sheik boards how Sheik can use items, how she can avoid items, and how overall she's awesome.

 

[Judo777]

I can think of about 5 different ways to grab the Gyro or otherwise render it useless.

It's a "my opponent is offstage let me force them into a bad position" type move.

Glide toss at you--> forces shield--> they get a grab

That's why you shouldn't shield. Crouch instead.

When I get my working copy of Brawl I'll show the Sheik boards how Sheik can use items, how she can avoid items, and how overall she's awesome.

how many of those ways are safe if rob is standing right next to it? And sheik doesnt have a glide toss. Also glide toss at shield to grab is not legit at all.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Move the ROB discussion to here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=11546781#post11546781


As for the stage discussion.... I'm moving onto BF and just putting in the info on D that I think should be there. Got a problem with some of the info listed? Then quote my post and edit it to your liking and then tell me why you say it is that way.

Also, everyone needs to step back for a second and think. This is starting to get out of hand. That saying came from swinging an ax. If you swing to hard trying to accomplish something it will come out of your hand.
Stop trying so hard to prove your point.

 

[<π]

I haven't wrapped my head around R.O.B. yet. like I haven't wrapped my head around biker wario yet :/

simply put you can't out camp rob, I know that much. you can stop him from camping sure. but his camp game is superior to yours. You can't out camp fox falco good pits and a handful of other characters.

but you don't need that one dimension in every match up to win it either. I don't know any of robs ranges or the timing of his attacks I just know for his range he is fast~ on the ground and in the air. so fast it's hard to really get close enough to bait things and punish with your tilts or aerials...

 

[-Mars-]

I haven't wrapped my head around R.O.B. yet. like I haven't wrapped my head around biker wario yet :/

simply put you can't out camp rob, I know that much. you can stop him from camping sure. but his camp game is superior to yours. You can't out camp fox falco good pits and a handful of other characters.

but you don't need that one dimension in every match up to win it either. I don't know any of robs ranges or the timing of his attacks I just know for his range he is fast~ on the ground and in the air. so fast it's hard to really get close enough to bait things and punish with your tilts or aerials...

Sheik-Falco camp game is even imo, especially when you consider that anytime Sheik has a lead, a full needle charge, and is crouching. She is in a particularly advantageous position.

I don't completely understand ROB either I just know he has a bad blindspot beneath him. Grab him and throw him in the air, besides fair his aerials are slow. WHen he's at KO percents switch to Zelda.

 

[Juushichi]

Sheik-Falco camp game is even imo, especially when you consider that anytime Sheik has a lead, a full needle charge, and is crouching. She is in a particularly advantageous position.

I don't completely understand ROB either I just know he has a bad blindspot beneath him. Grab him and throw him in the air, besides fair his aerials are slow. When he's at KO percents switch to Zelda.

One of the rare times I've disagreed with you so far, Mars but: No, no, no. No. No. No. Do not do this. R.O.B. isn't a MU we need Zelda for at all and even at high %'s it's a bad idea.

I've got three pretty good R.O.B.'s in my area: Mister Eric (KY), Mr. E (OH) and SiL (OH - iirc, inui said he was better than Chibo at SiiS3 / R.O.B.'s generally say he's the best with the top / He also handled Tutu relatively well there - needless to say, he's the ROB I know about the most) that I've played quite a bit (though it was Mario for the longest time for the two latter). The rest of it seems fine.

You want to keep R.O.B. in the air and you underneath when he's uncomfortable. R.O.B's have some timing tricks with their aerials even if they aren't fast. Nair/Bair/Fair are what you're going to see probably the most. Nair is what I've seen coming from behind a gyro and as something that will beat out your aerial --- it and bair also linger for a few moments (and hit) later than you would think. I know with Eric and Sil in particular, charging a gyro is used to B-reverse to get a better position (ala Snake) and punish wiffed aerials.

SuSa is right for the most part that WOP is the biggest danger to us in this MU. R.O.B. is someone you want to be reeeeeally close to whenever you can. He can't really do anything when you're jabbing him and grabs yield some pretty good results.

Now that I think about it, the only thing that would Zelda would be useful for is attacking ROB's shield (it's pretty bad) safely, but the risk behind it is really not even worth it, imo, when he can safely outmaneuver you for what I would think is an easy gimp/kill.

@ SuSa: Don't crouch a gyro shot, lol. R.O.B's are smarter than to just shoot it straight at you.

 

[SuSa]

later than you would think

Matchup experience is a horrible thing. You should know the timing on ROB's aerials at the very least. Play him a bit and get to know them if you don't.

Zelda is practically never a good option. People say switch to her for the KO, which is kind of hard when she lacks any good approach options and Din's Fire is horrible for camping.

Zelda is bad and you should feel bad. If you need a secondary for a matchup (Pikachu) pick up a secondary char. that doesn't suck.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Mr. Eric and the whole Greenup crew is smashing with Portsmouth today so I will get a chance to fight a good ROB.
I'll input when I get home.
Also, this is not the ROB thread, please go to the one I made.

We are discussing Battlefield. Look at the OP and discuss.

 

[SuSa]

I disagree with Squirtle and to some degree Snake (hear me out)

Personally, I don't see why you'd take Squirtle here...Squirtle is a really airborne character comparable to Wario.. just lacking in kill power (compared to Wario) but IMO he pokes better.. anyways.

Snake has complete and utter stage control on BF. If he ever gets you offstage and gets time to setup his camp game, you will not be getting in on him without being very close to dying. It can be a disaster. Likewise when he's not setup the platforms place him into a bad spot and Sheik can do juggle hell here.

I love a love/hate relationship vs'ing Snakes on BF... =\ I'll get knocked off stage and when I return it's hell for the next minute or until I die - or I'll get in on them and do a 0-90% string without getting touched...

Otherwise agree with the OP.

 

[Juushichi]

SuSa, I know what ROB's timing is. It's my most played MU. However, I recognize that a lot of people in general don't play ROB or don't know what a good ROB plays like, so that was what I was saying.

 

[SuSa]

What I was saying is that shouldn't even be thought of. Anyways - take it to the ROB discussion thread. We're talking Battlefield here now, not ROB.

Inexperience is a player's downfall.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I listed Snake because of the fact that you can juggle the hell out of him at BF.
I listed Squirtle because Sheik and Squirtle go even on platform fun, but we still have all of our GR's on him. Blazingkatakiri is probably the best PT in the MW. Sheik's GR's pretty much shut Squirtle down. A GR CG that can end with a DA or Needle's is so annoying. Since his range isn't the best you can block with jabs and follow up with a grab all day long. He usually gives up on Squirtle and goes to Ivy or Charizard and let me tell you, they are freakin annoying!

All and all though, Sheik > Squirtle. Any stage where Sheik can no longer GR... Sheik < Squirtle.


I edited the info from this thread http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=209676 into the OP.
I honestly don't understand a few of those especially Luigi at BF. Then again I don't understand Luigi.

 

[Judo777]

Are you kidding me? Zelda is not only a good thing in the ROB MU its actually the key IMO. I play Mr Eric all the time and i have played Sil fairly recently in tourney. Juggling rob is very important like everyone has said but once hes over 100% TRANSFORM INTO ZELDA. Why wouldn't you rob actually has a trouble with zelda as a character. I have only played Sil once in tournament recently and I beat him because he never lived past 114 i think. Zelda moves shield poke him all day. If you dont transform rob will not be dying until about 180. My first win against Mr Eric in tournament ever was once i realized i could turn into zelda. Since then i haven't lost to Mr Eric in tournament for over a year now. And Mr Eric is freaking incredible. Zelda is so important in this MU IMO. Its one of the only 4 MU's i recommend using her.

Those 4 being.


IC's
First half of pika (til 50%) or the whole time if you are confident.
Rob
D3

Dont respond ill move to the discussion sry.

 

[Mister Eric]

I still feel that I use my b-reversals on a different lvl than any other rob in America so far. (Ocean seems to use them on a wiser scale, I just use them to both maneuver and overwhelm you.)

You might consider them out of control, but nonetheless, different.

Mr. Eric and the whole Greenup crew is smashing with Portsmouth today so I will get a chance to fight a good ROB.
I'll input when I get home.
Also, this is not the ROB thread, please go to the one I made.

We are discussing Battlefield. Look at the OP and discuss.

I know nothing of this! (wish i did!<3)

-------------------------------------------------

Yeah, I just got here through namesearchin', but I'd like to glance through this thread while I'm not at a smashfest/have more time.

Shiek and rob, to me, is interesting.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I thought you were one of the local robs, guess not. It must be Mr. E that is local.

lol@ at the rob ditto last week between you and Mr. E. Everyone was so confused about who was who. Wasn't it the same tag and everything?

 

[Mister Eric]

Ahh, we've both been in the MW scene for forever. I just think that the bracket got confused. I think if people started spelling out "mister" for me it would make it a bit easier.
People just get lazy and call me Mr. E because they have the real Mr. E's name prob in their subconscious somewhere...that's where the confusion gets annoying xD

I used to say, that I would one day get so good that people knew who I was, and never confused me. But i dont think it has helped any xD

 

[saviorslegacy]

Hey, stage discussion. Does anyone have any input with the OP?

 

[-Cross-]

What's the reasoning behind avoiding Wario and Luigi?

Also what's the reasoning behind CP'ing those characters to this stage? imo Sheik does not have an apparent advantage over all the characters listed. The only one that I would agree on is IC's, but that's only for neutral stage pick. Otherwise there are much gayer stages to take IC's. Snake like SuSa said actually controls BF very well. None of the other characters listed are particularly hindered by BF, and so the only reason you would CP characters to BF is if you already had a natural MU advantage. BF isn't really a CP worthy stage for Sheik and should only be used as a CP if you don't know the MU against another character.

Edit: There are also a bunch of tricks that Sheik can do on this stage. All the needle gliding techs, using Vanish to escape from juggles, and a good ledge option opens up, second jump>air dodge land on the lower platform with only landing lag and full invicibility before landing.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I edited a lot of those onto the OP from an older post. It's your job to disagree with them.
So far SuSa thinks that Snake can camp like a pro here, and I believe him. I'm not so sure about Squirtle, but I would defiantly take PT here. Ivy and especially Charizard is not the most graceful here.

 

[-Cross-]

Uh, then don't avoid Wario on this stage? I've already proved that the most important GR options are still applicable on Wario on BF regardless of platforms. I think that's the only reason why people would avoid taking Wario here. As for avoiding Luigi, I don't know enough to say, but again nothing MU changing on BF so I guess it just depends on the MU or just personal preference.

 

[<π]

snake can't out camp sheik. he can only out live her.

 

[SuSa]

snake can't out camp sheik. he can only out live her.

Refer to my post up or back a page or somewhere.

The moment he can setup (threw you offstage, you died, etc), he can outcamp you.

 

[<π]

set up what?

needles set off mines, blow up/make snake drop nades. charging needles ducks under all the nade lobbs. snakes actually holding the grenade is laugh able in those mid ranges. pulling grandes in general when sheik is in that mid range is laugh able.
edge mine can be safely detonated by the reappear from vanish and still give you the edge.

nades have no hit stun.

All I do down here is play top snakes. and no snake has ever set up anything on my sheik that I could just single needle to end.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I have to agree with <3 on this one. Needles kinda wreck Snakes camping game and once we get in it is just a matter of prediction juggling.

 

[-Cross-]

My opinion on not CP'ing Snake to BF does not have anything to do with camp game vs Sheik. Instead, Snake controls area very well on BF. For example, a nade or a C4 on one of the lower platforms controls a huge area, it's ridiculous. Even though Sheik can outcamp Snake, if you're on the edge, he can cover almost every option you have as long as he has the proper setup. Mine covering the roll option. Nade at varying locations to pressure you from hanging on the ledge and nikita can cover a lot of Sheiks options. Aerial needle from ledge may ruin this setup by detonating the mine, but still situational setups given time are much worse on BF than other stages imo. Also he can vary his vertical position from platform to ground to make his nade game safer and reducing the effectiveness of needles. I would rather take a Snake to FD rather than BF.

 

[<π]

needles are greater than mines. mines on plats don't explode if you run or walk under them. C4 is generally easy to avoid even if its on plats on this stage as well. because of sheik's ver short dash animation positioning yourself so you can dash without fear is rarely an issue.

ledge hopped needles blow up mines in that roll range on the edge safely. The wind from vanish will get anything that needles can't.

Snake won't throw grenades from plats because they are useless :/

FD is a goodish stage against snake. it actually makes juggling harder since you lose the pressure you can apply when he is above you on plats. thats more prefrence I guess. but not plats make C4 pivots much more powerful.

 

[saviorslegacy]

*updated

Okay, I honestly have no idea what to say about Smashville.
Uhhhhh.... help?

 

[riocosta123]

Well, it is the best stage in the entire game. Doesn't everyone like Smashville?

 

[-Cross-]

not when MK can scrooge you (glide underneath stage to the other side)

 

[riocosta123]

He can do that to everyone though it's just a little easier on SV.

 

[saviorslegacy]

*updated*
Now discuss Yoshi's Island!