Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[aguyuno]

Nope. Items off doesn't do it. Lame

 

[infomon]

Has anyone played all star mode yet? The reason I ask is because they've somehow set those stages so they're in the original mode but the bull**** stuff, most are gone. For example, magnicant didn't seem to have the bird and distant planet didjt seem to have those no flowers or even the rain.

If those versions were released it'd be cool. Or maybe no items.... Hmm. Will try that.

Brawl had several fantastic stages, that were only enabled in Subspace Emissary when you have to fight other characters as part of the story progression. Sakurai has a very good idea what makes a good competitive stage vs. super-silly fun stages. Unfortunate that he doesn't let us pick those stages

 

[Tybis]

Has anyone played all star mode yet? The reason I ask is because they've somehow set those stages so they're in the original mode but the bull**** stuff, most are gone. For example, magnicant didn't seem to have the bird and distant planet didjt seem to have those no flowers or even the rain.

Wouldn't Distant Planet with no rain or pellets make camping on the left side more effective, thus actually making it a worse competitive stage?

 

[aguyuno]

Brawl had several fantastic stages, that were only enabled in Subspace Emissary when you have to fight other characters as part of the story progression. Sakurai has a very good idea what makes a good competitive stage vs. super-silly fun stages. Unfortunate that he doesn't let us pick those stages

Right yeah I remember those. Thing is though these are literally the same stages as normal minus the bull****. Some stages still had hazards like the spirit train and gerudo valley but yeah

 

[aguyuno]

Wouldn't Distant Planet with no rain or pellets make camping on the left side more effective, thus actually making it a worse competitive stage?

I honestly don't know, it was mostly just the example I could think of. Point is, there's a lot more levels we could choose from for competitive if we kill the hazards. I think magicant would be great for competitive sans bird man

 

[Torn_Smash]

A point that I want to bring up in the analysis of stages is the fact that many common rule sets (and For Glory) in Smash 4 include 2 stocks. Because of this, we have to analyze the stages differently since camping/running away will not be as big of a problem since matches are generally shorter with 2 stocks and will only get faster as the game matures.

In Melee, one really wants to stay away from stages that promote camping since there is a possibility of each match lasting all 4 stocks or 8 minutes, but in Smash 4, each match has only 2 stocks and has a maximum time limit of 5 minutes.

Just something that I wanted to bring up as consideration, and it is useful when looking at stages like Arena Ferox, where people have concerns about camping or running away.

 

[aguyuno]

A point that I want to bring up in the analysis of stages is the fact that many common rule sets (and For Glory) in Smash 4 include 2 stocks. Because of this, we have to analyze the stages differently since camping/running away will not be as big of a problem since matches are generally shorter with 2 stocks and will only get faster as the game matures.

In Melee, one really wants to stay away from stages that promote camping since there is a possibility of each match lasting all 4 stocks or 8 minutes, but in Smash 4, each match has only 2 stocks and has a maximum time limit of 5 minutes.

Just something that I wanted to bring up as consideration, and it is useful when looking at stages like Arena Ferox, where people have concerns about camping or running away.

Out of curiosity, where are people are camping in Ferorx?

 

[Torn_Smash]

Out of curiosity, where are people are camping in Ferorx?

Not necessarily camping, but running around the stage, especially in this variation:

I've heard people complaining about avoiding the opponent in this variation by going around the middle platform in order to avoid the opponent

 

[TheMasterDS]

I've played a bunch of All Star and I think they're mostly the normal stages. I haven't seen a Flying Man or a Microgame but I have seen Yellow Devil, Unova's Nonsense, the Train stuff and probably more.

At any rate if they did remove some nonsense and that's not just coincidence they missed a bunch. It's strange.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Not necessarily camping, but running around the stage, especially in this variation:

I've heard people complaining about avoiding the opponent in this variation by going around the middle platform in order to avoid the opponent

Luckily the transformations are just that and aren't permanent.

I've played a bunch of All Star and I think they're mostly the normal stages. I haven't seen a Flying Man or a Microgame but I have seen Yellow Devil, Unova's Nonsense, the Train stuff and probably more.

At any rate if they did remove some nonsense and that's not just coincidence they missed a bunch. It's strange.

Flying Man spawns at the 25 second mark in Magicant so unless you just blitz through it then it should show up. Odd.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I look at Arena Ferox as Pokemon Stadium Fire Emblem edition. Some transformations will frequently lead to stall-outs in a lot of match-ups, but is that really different from Pokemon Stadium 1 from Melee and Brawl? I actually find Ferox tends to go a bit faster than PS1 did, but the game is still early so we'll see how that plays out.

Yeah, Distant Planet works because of all of its elements working together. The slope, pellets, and rain make camping the walk-off a total non-issue and provide two ways to disrupt people camping that lower nook for characters who otherwise struggle with that. You can't just say these things are "hazards" (the only actual hazard on Distant Planet is the Bulborb who is trivial) and that they somehow mar the quality of the stage; they're essential to the stage actually being functional and playable. My extensive experience with this stage in Brawl tells me that it's a really boring and defensively oriented stage, but there's nothing unfair about it at all. From what I've seen of it in smash 4, it seems largely similar but the generally faster gameplay makes it somewhat less obnoxious, and the new ledge mechanics can create some really tense situations when the rain comes and both players decide they want that ledge. I was hoping not to include it since even though it's pretty much 100% definitely a fair stage it's a stage that almost literally no one likes, but it doens't seem like 3DS has enough good stages to make a luxury decision like that.

 

[aguyuno]

LFlying Man spawns at the 25 second mark in Magicant so unless you just blitz through it then it should show up. Odd.

No but that's what I'm saying. In the all star version, Birdman doesn't exist. It's weird.

 

[aguyuno]

Yeah, Distant Planet works because of all of its elements working together. The slope, pellets, and rain make camping the walk-off a total non-issue and provide two ways to disrupt people camping that lower nook for characters who otherwise struggle with that. You can't just say these things are "hazards" (the only actual hazard on Distant Planet is the Bulborb who is trivial) and that they somehow mar the quality of the stage; they're essential to the stage actually being functional and playable. My extensive experience with this stage in Brawl tells me that it's a really boring and defensively oriented stage, but there's nothing unfair about it at all. From what I've seen of it in smash 4, it seems largely similar but the generally faster gameplay makes it somewhat less obnoxious, and the new ledge mechanics can create some really tense situations when the rain comes and both players decide they want that ledge. I was hoping not to include it since even though it's pretty much 100% definitely a fair stage it's a stage that almost literally no one likes, but it doens't seem like 3DS has enough good stages to make a luxury decision like that.

Again, I wasn't going after Distant Planet, mate. It was just one of the maps I remembered being different in the All Star version. I only recently got into Smash competitively (read: a few months ago); I had no idea people liked D-Planet at all, truth be told.

 

[Torn_Smash]

Here are some different pictures of the transformations of Arena Ferox and Reset Bomb Forest so we can have a visual when analyzing these stages.

Arena Ferox

Default Stage
-Lasts for 10 seconds in between transformations

Possible Transformations
-Transformations last for 30 seconds

#1

#2

#3

#4

Reset Bomb Forest

Default Stage
-Lasts for 55 seconds

Transformation (After Reset Bomb)
-Lasts for a 1 min 15 sec
-Creature at the bottom comes in at 15 secs
-Takes 15 secs to move from right to left
-Gone for 15 sec
-Takes 15 secs to move from left to right

Transformation (Without the destructible platforms)

 

[aguyuno]

So I just did all star mode again, once again got distant planet and this time all the stuff spawned. I guess I got a freak version last time? Weird.

Also got Magicant though; still no sign of bird man (although everything ELSE spawns). And Green Hill Zone has the crumbling ground in all star, BUT the uhhh checkpoint poles are gone. So that could be interesting.

 

[Zwzchow]

The checkpoint poles are definitely there

 

[infomon]

@ aguyuno : out of curiosity, is your battery low and/or is "power saving" mode enabled on your 3DS (it's an option in the "light control" box at the top-left of the home screen)

I've had the 3DS go through awkward loading times, and sometimes fails to load music at all for some games or transition times. It's plausible to me that under heavy system load, the game chooses to disable some of the more dynamic elements of a stage.

Also: are you playing 4-player matches? Maybe flying man only appears if there are less than 4 players?

 

[AceStarThe3rd]

Please ban Corneria
Why? Watch.

 

[aguyuno]

@ aguyuno : out of curiosity, is your battery low and/or is "power saving" mode enabled on your 3DS (it's an option in the "light control" box at the top-left of the home screen)

I've had the 3DS go through awkward loading times, and sometimes fails to load music at all for some games or transition times. It's plausible to me that under heavy system load, the game chooses to disable some of the more dynamic elements of a stage.

Also: are you playing 4-player matches? Maybe flying man only appears if there are less than 4 players?

Nope, plugged in. And yeah all star tends to be 4+ matches, so I guess that's possible though I'm pretty sure I've seen him on classic mode in team battles.

Edit: Just tested on 4 player smash; birdman doesn't spawn at the 25 second mark. I imagine they removed him from all star because he'd be hella cheap there (much like I didn't see the checkpoint poles); same reason you get like no items in that mode. Just wish we could access it.

@ Zwzchow - Yeah? They weren't for me on all star. Weird...

 

[Torn_Smash]

Please ban Corneria
Why? Watch.

Shhh no, nobody watch this, this stage is totally balanced and totally isn't the best counterpick ever for Rosalina

 

[aguyuno]

Please ban Corneria
Why? Watch.

That guy's voice is audio cancer.

But yeah that's uh, that's bad.

 

[Piford]

Well that obviously a glitch. Nintendo will probably fix the Rosalina and Ness problem in a patch. The Game & Watch one was just how his move works, and its risky trying to go down there to get it, since you can easily be punished.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Please ban Corneria
Why? Watch.

It seems like PSI Magnet does the same thing as Gravitational Pull where absorbed projectiles orbit Ness briefly? Still bonkers.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Guys me and my friends, while looking for playable starter/counter pick stages managed to play in rainbow road with out the Karts appearing 2 matches in a row.

Then the 3rd time we picked the stage (the next day actually) the karts showed up. I'm not sure if there is a consistent way of getting to the normal stage with transitions and have no cars show up, but if we could figure it out the stage would be a delfino plaza with essentially 2 areas in which the rainbow road track will not let you get gimped but instead you take damage and bounce back up. These places are a planet or moon in the middle of the track and a mariokart tunnel you see towards the end of the track.

 

[Delzethin]

Here are some different pictures of the transformations of Arena Ferox and Reset Bomb Forest so we can have a visual when analyzing these stages.

Arena Ferox

Default Stage
-Lasts for 10 seconds in between transformations

Possible Transformations
-Transformations last for 30 seconds

#1

#2

#3

#4

Yeah, Arena Ferox seems to be the PS1 of this game. Any circle camping on Form 2 can't last beyond the 30 seconds the form sticks around, and apparently wall infinites are impossible now since the attacker starts getting pushed away after the first few hits. It looks like a pretty solid counterpick option.

Reset Bomb Forest

Default Stage
-Lasts for 55 seconds

Transformation (After Reset Bomb)
-Lasts for a 1 min 15 sec
-Creature at the bottom comes in at 15 secs
-Takes 15 secs to move from right to left
-Gone for 15 sec
-Takes 15 secs to move from left to right

Transformation (Without the destructible platforms)

So the Lurchthorn is on a timer? Between that and the solid walls on the second form all being destructible (and quickly destructible), are there any real red flags that remain for RBF?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Please ban Corneria
Why? Watch.

Those mechanics look fun but really telgraphed. What are the odds of a real opponent just letting that happen? It would be really convincing if it were a video where the other player were actively trying to stop the other side from exploiting this stuff and shielding on reaction when appropriate, but that doesn't seem to be the case. This is nowhere near enough to justify a ban.

 

[infomon]

Agree with AA, but it sure is hilarious. This needs testing. If it's just the lasers responding to a gravity effect then..... working as intended lolol

 

[Aygent]

Ahh my first post on the boards! @PK_Wonder finally got me to join up, and he and I just tested a few maps. I feel as if we're gunna see around a solid rotation of 5 or 6. Jungle Japes... to ban or not to ban? And in regards to Arena Ferox, I'd say it's banned due to the fact that some moves can travel through stone platforms, such as Palutena's up smash/ fireworks and that to me feels like a condensed Hyrule from SSBM.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2imvop/for_clarification_this_is_how_you_play_on_some/

HA! I'm not crazy!

I've been getting conflicted reports and I want to say I've played singles matches without the destructible terrain on Reset Bomb. This should also explain the Kart Racers post a couple posts up.

 

[Aygent]

I can agree with japes. I only feel iffy because the rapids. But I think the community as a whole would agree it's high time to allow it in competitive rotation. It's the map that's been heavily played for many years.

 

[JAHCruncher]

+Solid
-BattleField
-Final Destination
-Prism Tower
-Yoshi Island
+Questionable
-Arena Ferox
-Brinstar
-Corneria* ok AceStar’s video is crazy
-Guar Plains
-Green Hill Zone* curves feel weird to me even in smash
-Jungle Japes
-Rainbow Road
-Reset Bomb Forest*
-Spirit Tracks*
-Tomodachi Life* because circle camping
- Tortimer Island
-3D Land*

+OMEGA Stages
-Wily’s Castle has a unique side wall and I think slightly small blast zones (need to test)
-Stages where “sharking” is possible
-Stages with a triangular bottom like Battlefield(normal)
-Stages with flat side Walls

*Don’t really like these but as has been said earlier this thread is to determine the initial stage list then whittle it down.

 

[Piford]

Jungle Japes is bad because it basically turns every fighter thats not kirby or jigglypiff (or similar weight range) into Little Mac with making the blastzone essientially right off the platform.

 

[<π]

Jungle Japes is bad because it basically turns every fighter thats not kirby or jigglypiff (or similar weight range) into Little Mac with making the blastzone essentially right off the platform.

I don't think that is true. For example I've seen little mac use the water to help his sub optimal recovery.
Characters with good horizontal recovery do fine here with out even really having to think about the water much.

The point of a stage isn't to be fair to or benefit everyone in the cast. that can not and will not happen regardless of what stage you end up picking based on their characters strengths and weaknesses. Little mac is much stronger on FD than Yoshi's Story. Toon link is stronger on Battlefield than FD. Its that "this stage isn't fair for this character" mindset that ironically end up cuts off a lot of characters in terms of viability because they can't enhance stage picks.

 

[ZenJestr]

in regards to Corneria, I don't think we have the luxury to ban a somewhat viable stage because 2 characters have a really dumb glitch in their favor.

the best decision, in my opinion, is to just ban Corneria if one of the players is using Ness or Rosalina, but if nobody is using those 2 then it should be available for the rest of the cast.

 

[<π]

in regards to Corneria, I don't think we have the luxury to ban a somewhat viable stage because 2 characters have a really dumb glitch in their favor.

the best decision, in my opinion, is to just ban Corneria if one of the players is using Ness or Rosalina, but if nobody is using those 2 then it should be available for the rest of the cast.

what glitch?

 

[Piford]

I don't think that is true. For example I've seen little mac use the water to help his sub optimal recovery.
Characters with good horizontal recovery do fine here with out even really having to think about the water much.

The point of a stage isn't to be fair to or benefit everyone in the cast. that can not and will not happen regardless of what stage you end up picking based on their characters strengths and weaknesses. Little mac is much stronger on FD than Yoshi's Story. Toon link is stronger on Battlefield than FD. Its that "this stage isn't fair for this character" mindset that ironically end up cuts off a lot of characters in terms of viability because they can't enhance stage picks.

I know we shouldn't ban stages for benefitting some characters, but from what I've played, it's the lighter character that always wins, not the better player.

And the corneria glitch is that the lasers glitch out when Ness or Rosalina uses their down B on them.

 

[Thinkaman]

the best decision, in my opinion, is to just ban Corneria if one of the players is using Ness or Rosalina, but if nobody is using those 2 then it should be available for the rest of the cast.

I was going to make a post about the countless problems with this idea, before realizing there really aren't any.

We can simplify the ban to this:
1) If you counter-pick Corneria, you cannot select Ness or Rosalina.
2) If you counter-pick Corneria and your opponent selects Ness or Rosalina, you have the option to change your counter-pick. (Your opponent cannot change characters)

This protocol is the cleanest, least invasive way of applying this ban, if it proves warranted due to the seemingly serious glitch.

(I'm not sure that it is warranted though, not yet.)

 

[infomon]

That plan is still frought with silliness. For anyone who plays Ness/Rosalina, I would always counterpick Corneria, let them pick Ness/Rosalina, and then I'll switch my counterpick to their worst possible stage. lol

Let's understand the glitch first.

Here are some ideas about how to get the 3DS to disable or change some stage hazards as part of stage selection:
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2imvop/for_clarification_this_is_how_you_play_on_some/

 

[TheMasterDS]

Thing is about that while it seems perfectly reasonable to be able to have 2 more 3DSes, one capturing one and a spare, during tournaments I suspect getting that set up outside those circumstances for practice and such wouldn't really be feasible.

 

[T-block]

Haha the laugh in that Corneria vid gets me every time.

Yoshi's Island saved the dying Luma of my opponent in my first tournament in a losers bracket game 3 last stock scenario. Can we ban that stage yet?