Meta SSBU Stagelist Discussion

[TheYungLink]

Happy to hear Yggrasil's Altar sounds viable. Hoping for at least one or two more viable stages in the DLC.

 

[ATH_]

Yggdrassil's Altar is a really neat stage, but I do have some issues with it.

The rotation seems to be 30-40 seconds of FD at the start, 30 seconds of platforms, then 20-40 seconds of FD between the next plaform layout. The intriguing thing here is that it seems to be completely random. It seems to have something to do with where the stage travels, I have a suspicion that the 2 platform layout always happens around the green light of the tree). Either way, the time ranges significantly.

I should say, this is far better than T&C imo. Yes you can die off the platforms horizontally, but the only real way you're going to die like that is if you make a mistake or your opponent grabs you on them, where you would die on T&C like that anyway. Why is it better then? Well, I made a post a while back on why T&C should be considered another "FD-like" stage, which came to the conclusion that T&C is in an FD-like mode 66% of the time. That's way too much to have it be a starter alongside FD or Kalos. However, Yggdrasil's Altar seems to be like this significantly less often. I've had platforms come in after only 20 seconds of there being a clear stage, and I've had them take as long as 40 seconds to come back too. If we look at the extremes, what do we get?

Platsforms seem to always last 30 seconds, but I'll list it here anyway. 7 minute timer btw:
Plats 30s, FD 20s = FD 40% of the time.
Plats 30s, FD 40s = FD 57% of the time
Plats 30s, FD 30s = FD 50% of the time
Plats 30s, FD 20s, Initial FD 40s = FD 45% of the time
Maximum: Plats 30s, FD 40s, Initial FD 40s = FD 61.1% of the time
Minimum: Plats 30s, FD 20s, Initial FD 30s = FD 44.2% of the time
Overall Average (Min + Max / 2): 52.6%

What can we gain from this? Well, the stage is in an FD-like stage roughly 52% of the time. This is far better than T&C's 66%, but an argument can still be made that it should be considered an open/wide stage. What's the issue with that? Well... You really can't start pushing for all 4...

If you put all 4 (FD, Kalos, T&C, Ygg) then you're unbalancing your list even more... Now, I don't know where I stand on that fence, whether or not 50% is enough to say it should be grouped with the others, but I do think that's a genuine downside.

Then the question comes up, well which stage do we replace? While I would say T&C, I'm sure many people would have issues with that. Personally, if your list follows a 2-2-2-2 structure, this could be your 5th starter or a 10th stage. It could work either way due to how versatile Lylat is. The hardest thing here isn't whether or not the stage is good, it's really good! It's how do we fit it into a list in a way that'll remain balanced?

 

[Munomario777]

IMO kalos is the first one to replace for ygg – T&C is super popular, and FD is kind of a staple

 

[IsmaR]

Was honestly thinking earlier it might be a better fit for doubles than singles as far as specific stage "variations" (BF/YS, PS/UL, YI:B/SV, and with this T&C/KL/YA) go. But it's hard to quantify anything other than players' personal preference until we see definitive parameters/numbers (or present them in a convincing manner).

 

[TCT~Phantom]

YGs honestly is something that I think is an easy choice for legality so long as music rights don't get in the way but idk on that.

I do think ATH_ does bring up a good point in stage balance though. This is another relatively large stage. Personally, I have always been more liberal when it comes to stage lists (I will always say WarioWare is healthy for the game dont at me), but I do think that the current general ruleset could use smaller stages as well. In my opinon, the best candidate for that would be bringing back Castle Siege, but I know people have beef with that stage due to camera issues. Maybe Spiral Mountain will be the small stage that could, but right now we have slimmer pickings since the only common stage I would comfortably say is a "small stage" is Lylat.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Sounds like majors refuse to turn off music on stream setups so Yggdrasil will likely not be legal. If true, then this doesn't bode well for future DLC stages either. Unless you can convince majors to turn off music, Yggdrasil is probably dead on arrival.

 

[Octorockandroll]

My weekly last night ran with Altar as a legal counterpick with a 3 ban rule and it went pretty well. Everyone had fun, there were no jank moments and everyone seemed to get their heads around the stage pretty easily. I think its a good fit.

 

[ShneeOscar]

Are we completely sure the music on Yggdrasil will be problematic? It would be a real shame to lose such a great stage due to something as stupid as this.

If Yggdrasil has to replace a stage on the list, it should be Town and City. They fulfil similar niches as large, transforming stages.

 

[TheYungLink]

Imagine having to ban a stage because the ****in midi versions of Dragon Quest music is still too much of a problem to stream.

Sugiyama, man. *sigh*

 

[Octorockandroll]

Are we completely sure the music on Yggdrasil will be problematic? It would be a real shame to lose such a great stage due to something as stupid as this.

If Yggdrasil has to replace a stage on the list, it should be Town and City. They fulfil similar niches as large, transforming stages.

The composer from the Dragon Quest series is a huge **** who copyright strikes pretty much anything that has any DQ music for any reason (he's also a massive bigot, but that's neither here nor there) so it's possible he might try it with smash tournament streams. Not sure if he will though, because it would depend on how the music rights in their agreement with Nintendo worked out.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea of banning Yggdrasil's Altar for the music unless and until it's demonstrated to actually be an issue. Do we know the details of how the rights for the music were negotiated? Do we know for certain if streams or videos of matches on Yggdrasil's Altar will run into legal problems, or are we just speculating?

 

[ATH_]

Aren't remixes usually safe from claims? I suppose since it's not a fan remix but rather an official one, that could still be a problem. Are there no remixed songs for Yggdrasil? I know next to nothing about DQ (I've always wanted to try it out but have had too big a backlog to get to it) so apologies for my ignorance of the topic.

However, I wanted to point out something Octorockandroll said that has been said before as a potential solution to breaking the 2-2-2-2 mold. 3 bans instead of 2.

Traditionally, if you model a list with 2 of each major layout with variances on each stage (SV to YI:B, Battlefield to YS, etc) you want to have 2 bans so a player can ban a specific layout (minus the 5th starter) but not ban more than one layout. However, with a third ban, you could have an imbalanced list, say 2-2-3-3 and it still functions the same, just makes it so that the 5th starter (Lylat for 90% of cases) is more valuable to ban. It has an upside as well, you could ban the largest stages or the smallest stages too, if that makes a difference for your matchup.

However, there's an issue with this. By allowing 3 bans, you could ban a layout and ban an additional stage from a different layout (if you don't ban the 5th starter). So why is that bad? Well, here's a scenario.

I'm Inkling, you're Corrin. You want a smaller stage to be aggressive, with platforms to help you get in on Inkling. Ideally, you can go to Smashville or YI;B, but you know I'm going to ban monoplats for game 2. I ban monoplats and I ban your next best stage, which is Yoshi's Story. Now what? You can pick between Battlefield, a mostly neutral stage for your playstyle, Town & City, probably favoring Inkling more than Corrin, or PS2, which is likely your best option.

The issue comes when someone uses their 3 bans on a layout that only has 2 representatives. It gives you way more of an edge because not only do you ban 3 stages, but you essentially ban your best layout too (which would be FD-like stages in this scenario), leaving your opponent which very little options that aren't in your favor.

Now it's not all that bad, if you're going to run 2-2-2-4 like it seems many are pushing for, then this is better than 2 bans for sure. Just be aware, that this is going to cause Lylat and PS2 to get picked a ton more, as well as promoting the characters who benefit off FD-like stages.

On a side note, I am personally starting to lean towards Yggdrasil being not FD-like overall. I think the amount of time between layouts is just fast enough that you don't really get the chance to camp very hard, and the specific layouts help a lot against said playstyles. However, Pichu seems completely insane on the stage (it's just better T&C for Pichu), which is something to watch out for as a player.

I'm still a firm believer that mixed hazards with specific rulesets are very viable. Only have those rulesets, and it'll skip the stage selection screen. Meaning players have to pick the right ruleset or they'll know something's off. It gives us a better Smashville, a better Town & City, and Fountain of Dreams which is a perfect 5th starter (better than Lylat IMO).

 

[Untouch]

https://rubendal.github.io/ssbu/#/Stage/Yggdrasil's Altar

We have data.
Platform is 160 units. (Same as BF)
Top blastzone is 192. (Same as BF.)
Bottom blastzone is -140. (Same as BF.)
Side blastzones are 250. (Battlefield is 240.)

 

[Sean²]

If a stage is worth it competitively, it would make sense to turn off the music on stream setups so it can be used. TOs refusing to do so and fully banning the stage as a result - is dumb. I know stage music can help set the mood of the match for some players, but it's something that can easily be pushed past. Yggdrasil's platform changes are more unique than some other FD-esque stages. It could easily replace one of the more redundant ones. But, I guess I'm not in charge of it so I don't have much of a final say. Hard to disagree that it's a dumb reason, though.

 

[Octorockandroll]

Aren't remixes usually safe from claims? I suppose since it's not a fan remix but rather an official one, that could still be a problem. Are there no remixed songs for Yggdrasil? I know next to nothing about DQ (I've always wanted to try it out but have had too big a backlog to get to it) so apologies for my ignorance of the topic.

However, I wanted to point out something Octorockandroll said that has been said before as a potential solution to breaking the 2-2-2-2 mold. 3 bans instead of 2.

Traditionally, if you model a list with 2 of each major layout with variances on each stage (SV to YI:B, Battlefield to YS, etc) you want to have 2 bans so a player can ban a specific layout (minus the 5th starter) but not ban more than one layout. However, with a third ban, you could have an imbalanced list, say 2-2-3-3 and it still functions the same, just makes it so that the 5th starter (Lylat for 90% of cases) is more valuable to ban. It has an upside as well, you could ban the largest stages or the smallest stages too, if that makes a difference for your matchup.

However, there's an issue with this. By allowing 3 bans, you could ban a layout and ban an additional stage from a different layout (if you don't ban the 5th starter). So why is that bad? Well, here's a scenario.

I'm Inkling, you're Corrin. You want a smaller stage to be aggressive, with platforms to help you get in on Inkling. Ideally, you can go to Smashville or YI;B, but you know I'm going to ban monoplats for game 2. I ban monoplats and I ban your next best stage, which is Yoshi's Story. Now what? You can pick between Battlefield, a mostly neutral stage for your playstyle, Town & City, probably favoring Inkling more than Corrin, or PS2, which is likely your best option.

The issue comes when someone uses their 3 bans on a layout that only has 2 representatives. It gives you way more of an edge because not only do you ban 3 stages, but you essentially ban your best layout too (which would be FD-like stages in this scenario), leaving your opponent which very little options that aren't in your favor.

Now it's not all that bad, if you're going to run 2-2-2-4 like it seems many are pushing for, then this is better than 2 bans for sure. Just be aware, that this is going to cause Lylat and PS2 to get picked a ton more, as well as promoting the characters who benefit off FD-like stages.

On a side note, I am personally starting to lean towards Yggdrasil being not FD-like overall. I think the amount of time between layouts is just fast enough that you don't really get the chance to camp very hard, and the specific layouts help a lot against said playstyles. However, Pichu seems completely insane on the stage (it's just better T&C for Pichu), which is something to watch out for as a player.

I'm still a firm believer that mixed hazards with specific rulesets are very viable. Only have those rulesets, and it'll skip the stage selection screen. Meaning players have to pick the right ruleset or they'll know something's off. It gives us a better Smashville, a better Town & City, and Fountain of Dreams which is a perfect 5th starter (better than Lylat IMO).

Im personally okay with implementing this change even if it will skew the advantage towards the previous game's loser because even if they win just because of the stage (which in my experience rarely happens) the loser can then gains the advantage and can turn it around just as easily as the other guy did. Tbh the only long term negative effect I see that having is maybe making brackets run a bit longer than normal.

 

[ATH_]

Im personally okay with implementing this change even if it will skew the advantage towards the previous game's loser because even if they win just because of the stage (which in my experience rarely happens) the loser can then gains the advantage and can turn it around just as easily as the other guy did. Tbh the only long term negative effect I see that having is maybe making brackets run a bit longer than normal.

The main issue isn't that the loser has an advantage, it's that it's not consistently the loser who has the advantage. Arguably, this could be character-specific. However I personally stand by the thought that each character has different preferences on each of the 4 main layouts.

I know I may sound like a broken record at this point, but this might really be a time where we experiment with previously banned stages. Frigate, WarioWare, Castle Siege, Mushroom Kingdom U, Mementos, and Halberd all still have potential.

A list could look like this, with tags of which layout type it represents:

Starters

• Battlefield (BF)
• Kalos Pokemon League (FD Medium)
• Pokemon Stadium 1 (PS Large)
• Smashville (SV Small)
• Lylat Cruise (5th Starter, Unique, "Small")

Counterpicks (3 bans)

• Yoshi's Story (BF Small)
• Mementos (BF Big)
• Final Destination (FD Medium)
• Town & City (FD Small)
• Unova Pokemon League (PS Medium)
• Yoshi's Island: Brawl (SV Small)
• Halberd (SV Large)
• Yggdrasil's Altar (Unique, "Large")

What this list accomplishes is a 3-3-2-3 spread where the Pokemon Stadium-type layout only has 2 representatives. Personally, I think this is actually as balanced as it gets, since some may argue that the PS layout is actually close enough to Battlefield that it warrants having less reps. As well, before anyone asks, I've gone over before why Lylat is the best possible 5th starter and why it isn't in the Battlefield category, as it's more of an inverse PS layout (as in, it has 3 platforms where the gaps are on a typical PS layout) with additional slopes and a smaller blast zone.

Now, there's one elephant in the room here, which is Halberd. Halberd is by no means the most competitive stage, with semi-solid terrain half the time and potentially janky transformations, it's rough for the stage. Though, one could potentially remove Halberd and still retain most of the balance of the list. I do think if this were actually ran at a major, people would find Halberd to be just fine. You'd see a pro sharking a less-experienced player, but between two pros, the stage would be perfectly fine. That's all conjecture though, not proof.

Alternatively, you could remove both Unova and Halberd if you want to get rid of the "Jank" stages. I really do still feel like Unova has a rightful place on a proper list, as it has no elements that detract from competitive play except for the potentially distracting light effects. Honestly though, that's it. Either way, balance would still be retained that way, and you'd have a larger ratio of smaller stages in total.

 

[Octorockandroll]

The main issue isn't that the loser has an advantage, it's that it's not consistently the loser who has the advantage. Arguably, this could be character-specific. However I personally stand by the thought that each character has different preferences on each of the 4 main layouts.

I know I may sound like a broken record at this point, but this might really be a time where we experiment with previously banned stages. Frigate, WarioWare, Castle Siege, Mushroom Kingdom U, Mementos, and Halberd all still have potential.

A list could look like this, with tags of which layout type it represents:

Starters

• Battlefield (BF)
• Kalos Pokemon League (FD Medium)
• Pokemon Stadium 1 (PS Large)
• Smashville (SV Small)
• Lylat Cruise (5th Starter, Unique, "Small")

Counterpicks (3 bans)

• Yoshi's Story (BF Small)
• Mementos (BF Big)
• Final Destination (FD Medium)
• Town & City (FD Small)
• Unova Pokemon League (PS Medium)
• Yoshi's Island: Brawl (SV Small)
• Halberd (SV Large)
• Yggdrasil's Altar (Unique, "Large")

What this list accomplishes is a 3-3-2-3 spread where the Pokemon Stadium-type layout only has 2 representatives. Personally, I think this is actually as balanced as it gets, since some may argue that the PS layout is actually close enough to Battlefield that it warrants having less reps. As well, before anyone asks, I've gone over before why Lylat is the best possible 5th starter and why it isn't in the Battlefield category, as it's more of an inverse PS layout (as in, it has 3 platforms where the gaps are on a typical PS layout) with additional slopes and a smaller blast zone.

Now, there's one elephant in the room here, which is Halberd. Halberd is by no means the most competitive stage, with semi-solid terrain half the time and potentially janky transformations, it's rough for the stage. Though, one could potentially remove Halberd and still retain most of the balance of the list. I do think if this were actually ran at a major, people would find Halberd to be just fine. You'd see a pro sharking a less-experienced player, but between two pros, the stage would be perfectly fine. That's all conjecture though, not proof.

Alternatively, you could remove both Unova and Halberd if you want to get rid of the "Jank" stages. I really do still feel like Unova has a rightful place on a proper list, as it has no elements that detract from competitive play except for the potentially distracting light effects. Honestly though, that's it. Either way, balance would still be retained that way, and you'd have a larger ratio of smaller stages in total.

Im definitely for more varied stage layouts because overly restricting the platform designs in a platform fighter feels counter intuitive. Not really sure about Halberd though because of what you mentioned. It would be nice to see other competitive ayouts.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm not sure whether to file this under "serious discussion" or "curious gossip."

Nintendo's hosting a thing, starting with an online ladder and moving on to a single elimination bracket composed of the the top players from said ladder. Stage selection for the whole thing is random from the following H- stages:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Frigate Orpheon
Yoshi’s Island
Pokémon Stadium 2
Castle Siege
Smashville

Items, FS meter, and stage morph all disabled as well.

 

[ATH_]

I'm not sure whether to file this under "serious discussion" or "curious gossip."

Nintendo's hosting a thing, starting with an online ladder and moving on to a single elimination bracket composed of the the top players from said ladder. Stage selection for the whole thing is random from the following H- stages:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Frigate Orpheon
Yoshi’s Island
Pokémon Stadium 2
Castle Siege
Smashville

Items, FS meter, and stage morph all disabled as well.

For once, Nintendo's stage choices actually aren't that bad. I actually like this!

 

[Lacrimosa]

Starting today, we will be testing out a new stage list at 2gg events:

Starter
Final Destination
Battlefield
Pokémon Stadium 2
Smashville
Town & City

Counterpick
Pokémon Kalos League
Yggdrasil’s Altar pic.twitter.com/WxE39DKf3U

— 2GG (@2GGaming) August 5, 2019

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Starting today, we will be testing out a new stage list at 2gg events:

Starter
Final Destination
Battlefield
Pokémon Stadium 2
Smashville
Town & City

Counterpick
Pokémon Kalos League
Yggdrasil’s Altar pic.twitter.com/WxE39DKf3U

— 2GG (@2GGaming) August 5, 2019

Great that’s Yggdrasil is getting tested, but I wish that Lylat was cut. I would cut Kalos or Town over it tbh.

 

[Octorockandroll]

I'm not sure whether to file this under "serious discussion" or "curious gossip."

Nintendo's hosting a thing, starting with an online ladder and moving on to a single elimination bracket composed of the the top players from said ladder. Stage selection for the whole thing is random from the following H- stages:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Frigate Orpheon
Yoshi’s Island
Pokémon Stadium 2
Castle Siege
Smashville

Items, FS meter, and stage morph all disabled as well.

Random stage select seems very gimmicky to me. It might create some fun matches to watch, but its not the format I would think of when trying to measure skill.

 

[ATH_]

Starting today, we will be testing out a new stage list at 2gg events:

Starter
Final Destination
Battlefield
Pokémon Stadium 2
Smashville
Town & City

Counterpick
Pokémon Kalos League
Yggdrasil’s Altar pic.twitter.com/WxE39DKf3U

— 2GG (@2GGaming) August 5, 2019

How many years will we have to suffer with lists that have 3 stages that are all FD-like...
How many years...

 

[IsmaR]

That stage list is oof incarnate. They're going to use the fact people don't prefer any of the big stages to say "well no one really picked this stage anyway" and wind up dismissing it.

Mew2King is in the comments making arguments for the necessity of YS/Lylat and possibly even Unova over Kalos/YI:B, but I doubt he'll sway much opinions when getting rid of Lylat is just seen as a bonus to most.

 

[ATH_]

The new Genesis 7 trailer is out (I'm going!) and is really freakin cool.

High hopes that the list used will be as good as last years, maybe even better considering most agree that Siege isn't viable.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Here is what our new rule set looks like!

We will be implementing this starting tonight at #PRISM191 and also at our Far From Home weeklies! pic.twitter.com/LVImChMHKn

— Equinox Smash (@Equinox_Smash) August 7, 2019

Good thing more and more weeklies are using this stage.
It's way better than just dismiss a stage from the very start. Gathering data is important at first, then we can still ban a stage (looking at Mementos which never had a chance afaik).

 

[Munomario777]

That equinox list looks rad, no unova is unfortunate tho

 

[Octorockandroll]

Here is what our new rule set looks like!

We will be implementing this starting tonight at #PRISM191 and also at our Far From Home weeklies! pic.twitter.com/LVImChMHKn

— Equinox Smash (@Equinox_Smash) August 7, 2019

Good thing more and more weeklies are using this stage.
It's way better than just dismiss a stage from the very start. Gathering data is important at first, then we can still ban a stage (looking at Mementos which never had a chance afaik).

Way better than 2GG's. Might start watching these guys instrad.

 

[ATH_]

I wasn't very active when Mementos was being tested, what were the reasons that stage is nowhere to be seen now?

It's a large stage, sure. The blast zones are 10 units further out than PS2 (260 compares to 250), and the terrain is 14 units wider. Personally I don't see that being too much, but maybe there's a different reason.

As a sidenote, here's my proposed 2-ban list:

The idea is having 5 completely unique starters that are all static and lean on an average of around 235 blast zones (in order: 240, 250, 229, 240, 230).

Then, the counterpicks are all variants of the same stage. Yoshi's Story is a smaller version of Battlefield, with slants, a smaller blast zone, and walled sides. Unova is also a smaller Pokemon Stadium, but ends up being average in size overall; it also has walled sides. Yoshi's Island is about the same size, with a larger platform, walled sides, and more complex terrain. FD is self-explanatory, no plat forms, no walls, same size. Lastly, Yggdrasil is a unique layout-stage with a lean on the larger side as opposed to Lylat's lean on the smaller side.

Why is Town & City not here? Simply put, it's redundant. We have FD and Kalos as is. You could add T&C and make it 3 bans, but I feel the 2-ban version is much more balanced for competitive play. This isn't a race to using as many stages as we possibly can, it's about making a balanced stage list as best as we can.

P.S: My conclusion on Yggdrail's Altar has landed on 52% not being enough to classify it as FD-like. My logic here is that if a stage were made that was FD 50% of the time, and Battlefield 50% of the time, I believe that would become a standard starter separate from BF and FD. It would be considered a unique stage. Therefore, Yggdrasil's Altar is also a unique layout, as opposed to T&C which is FD-like 66% of the time.

 

[Nekoo]

I wasn't very active when Mementos was being tested, what were the reasons that stage is nowhere to be seen now?

It's a large stage, sure. The blast zones are 10 units further out than PS2 (260 compares to 250), and the terrain is 14 units wider. Personally I don't see that being too much, but maybe there's a different reason.

As a sidenote, here's my proposed 2-ban list:
View attachment 234117
The idea is having 5 completely unique starters that are all static and lean on an average of around 235 blast zones (in order: 240, 250, 229, 240, 230).

Then, the counterpicks are all variants of the same stage. Yoshi's Story is a smaller version of Battlefield, with slants, a smaller blast zone, and walled sides. Unova is also a smaller Pokemon Stadium, but ends up being average in size overall; it also has walled sides. Yoshi's Island is about the same size, with a larger platform, walled sides, and more complex terrain. FD is self-explanatory, no plat forms, no walls, same size. Lastly, Yggdrasil is a unique layout-stage with a lean on the larger side as opposed to Lylat's lean on the smaller side.

Why is Town & City not here? Simply put, it's redundant. We have FD and Kalos as is. You could add T&C and make it 3 bans, but I feel the 2-ban version is much more balanced for competitive play. This isn't a race to using as many stages as we possibly can, it's about making a balanced stage list as best as we can.

P.S: My conclusion on Yggdrail's Altar has landed on 52% not being enough to classify it as FD-like. My logic here is that if a stage were made that was FD 50% of the time, and Battlefield 50% of the time, I believe that would become a standard starter separate from BF and FD. It would be considered a unique stage. Therefore, Yggdrasil's Altar is also a unique layout, as opposed to T&C which is FD-like 66% of the time.

Muh Slant.
Muh Asymetry.
Muh Beeg and circle camping.

That basically was the reasoning for Mementos sadly. I would have liked a stage like that But a shame.... I wonder what Stage M2K think should be legal, he said multiple time that our list is too restrictive and there way more stages that should be legal.

 

[ShneeOscar]

I wasn't very active when Mementos was being tested, what were the reasons that stage is nowhere to be seen now?

It's a large stage, sure. The blast zones are 10 units further out than PS2 (260 compares to 250), and the terrain is 14 units wider. Personally I don't see that being too much, but maybe there's a different reason.

As a sidenote, here's my proposed 2-ban list:
View attachment 234117
The idea is having 5 completely unique starters that are all static and lean on an average of around 235 blast zones (in order: 240, 250, 229, 240, 230).

Then, the counterpicks are all variants of the same stage. Yoshi's Story is a smaller version of Battlefield, with slants, a smaller blast zone, and walled sides. Unova is also a smaller Pokemon Stadium, but ends up being average in size overall; it also has walled sides. Yoshi's Island is about the same size, with a larger platform, walled sides, and more complex terrain. FD is self-explanatory, no plat forms, no walls, same size. Lastly, Yggdrasil is a unique layout-stage with a lean on the larger side as opposed to Lylat's lean on the smaller side.

Why is Town & City not here? Simply put, it's redundant. We have FD and Kalos as is. You could add T&C and make it 3 bans, but I feel the 2-ban version is much more balanced for competitive play. This isn't a race to using as many stages as we possibly can, it's about making a balanced stage list as best as we can.

P.S: My conclusion on Yggdrail's Altar has landed on 52% not being enough to classify it as FD-like. My logic here is that if a stage were made that was FD 50% of the time, and Battlefield 50% of the time, I believe that would become a standard starter separate from BF and FD. It would be considered a unique stage. Therefore, Yggdrasil's Altar is also a unique layout, as opposed to T&C which is FD-like 66% of the time.

This is probably my favorite stage list I've seen here. I agree that FD does not make a great starter (It's probably only kept in because we were so starved for stages in the past 3 games It was just one of the best options). Yggdrasil is really just a better version of T&C, and removing it results in less Animal Crossing music and backgrounds, both of which I find rather tiring to listen to and watch.

 

[JipC]

Its kind of hard to keep up with the stage discussions for me, it seems like you really have to go out of your way to look for some data and issues stages can have. My main questions are:

1. Arent there side platforms that appear below the main platforms stage height on Yggdrasil? I'm personally okay with this but I feel like Smashers usually make this sort of thing a bigger deal
2. What happened to all the Unova complaining? I remember a lot of people had a problem with the brightness and the fact that some recoveries bonked with the ledge even though it appears to just be a flat vertical wall
3. Likewise with Pokemon Stadium 1. I would prefer it over PS2, but werent there collision issues? I remember someone brought up issues with the part where the main green "stadium" part collided with the metallic edges of the main platform
4. And Lylat. I heard characters recoveries can go through the ledge, specifically Kirby and Roy.

EDIT: One more thing, disregarding Ygg for now, why is T&C usually listed as a neutral? I feel like the transitioning platforms and high ceiling definitely make it more of a counterpick

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Would Arena Ferox be legal if it only used the statue layout?

1. Arent there side platforms that appear below the main platforms stage height on Yggdrasil? I'm personally okay with this but I feel like Smashers usually make this sort of thing a bigger deal

They do not appear with hazards off.

 

[Untouch]

Would Arena Ferox be legal if it only used the statue layout?


They do not appear with hazards off.

I remember before launch people were complaining about the slopes on ferox, I don't think it would have survived.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I remember before launch people were complaining about the slopes on ferox, I don't think it would have survived.

Wait really? I thought hating slopes was a new thing.

 

[ATH_]

Its kind of hard to keep up with the stage discussions for me, it seems like you really have to go out of your way to look for some data and issues stages can have. My main questions are:

1. Arent there side platforms that appear below the main platforms stage height on Yggdrasil? I'm personally okay with this but I feel like Smashers usually make this sort of thing a bigger deal
2. What happened to all the Unova complaining? I remember a lot of people had a problem with the brightness and the fact that some recoveries bonked with the ledge even though it appears to just be a flat vertical wall
3. Likewise with Pokemon Stadium 1. I would prefer it over PS2, but werent there collision issues? I remember someone brought up issues with the part where the main green "stadium" part collided with the metallic edges of the main platform
4. And Lylat. I heard characters recoveries can go through the ledge, specifically Kirby and Roy.

EDIT: One more thing, disregarding Ygg for now, why is T&C usually listed as a neutral? I feel like the transitioning platforms and high ceiling definitely make it more of a counterpick

1. Nope. The "randall" platforms don't appear at all. They would be problematic if the camera panned the same way it does with H+.

2. The ledge is flat, but there is an overhang pretty low down. It kills some teleports and various recoveries, but you really do have to go out of your way to go down there to have it deny your recovery. In other words, it's extremely easy to avoid. The lighting effects may still be an issue for some, but the brightness is definitely an adaptable aspect. It makes the stage better for characters who can use the brightness, and that's it. That isn't a broken thing by any means. Not every stage is 50/50 perfectly.

3. Collision issues may still exist, but it hasn't happened in any tournament running PS1.

4. As far as I know, this doesn't happen or it can happen on other stages for those characters as well. Roy has a ton of lag preventing him from grabbing the ledge with his Up Special, and Kirby's is really inconsistent too.

If you have any other questions I'd be glad to answer. ^^

 

[IsmaR]

After the testing period and receiving feedback from the SoCal community, we will be be using this Stagelist starting this Monday

Starter
Battlefield
Final Destination
Pokémon Stadium 2
Smashville
Town & City

Counterpick
Kalos Pokémon League

— 2GG (@2GGaming) August 24, 2019

I lack the words to even comment on this further than this sentence.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

After the testing period and receiving feedback from the SoCal community, we will be be using this Stagelist starting this Monday

Starter
Battlefield
Final Destination
Pokémon Stadium 2
Smashville
Town & City

Counterpick
Kalos Pokémon League

— 2GG (@2GGaming) August 24, 2019

I lack the words to even comment on this further than this sentence.

Well RIP people who like small stages...

 

[Nekoo]

After the testing period and receiving feedback from the SoCal community, we will be be using this Stagelist starting this Monday

Starter
Battlefield
Final Destination
Pokémon Stadium 2
Smashville
Town & City

Counterpick
Kalos Pokémon League

— 2GG (@2GGaming) August 24, 2019

I lack the words to even comment on this further than this sentence.

This is literally the worst timeline.
What the **** happened, and who the hell gave feedback to remove Lylat and Yoshi Melee?

There basically only big stages...what the hell is this?

I can't comprehend. I can't understand....what?

 

[Lacrimosa]

This is literally the worst timeline.
What the **** happened, and who the hell gave feedback to remove Lylat and Yoshi Melee?

There basically only big stages...what the hell is this?

I can't comprehend. I can't understand....what?

People hate dying to Incin's sideB at 60% or even before (rip, WarioWare)

Anyway, Atlanta has started using a very interesting stage ruleset:

This is the new Smash Atlanta Stage List.
Mixed Hazards

Starters Hazards Off
-Battlefield
-Pokémon Stadium
-Final Destination

Starters Hazards On
-Smashville
-Town and city

Counterpicks Hazards Off
-Kalos
-Lylat

Couterpicks Hazards On
-Fountain of Dreams

3 bans
No DSR

— Kamikaze 神風 (@IsThatKamikaze) August 25, 2019

FoD is available there.