Meta SSBU Stagelist Discussion

Gunla

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#1
Hello, and welcome to the Stagelist Discussion thread. This is a continuation from the previous thread by GamerGuy09. Many changes have occurred and information has come to light since E3, and as such some re-evaluation with a fresh take is in order. I've tried to keep a low bias with information for the plausible stages and strongly recommend discussion of stages in an informative manner. You may also find Bans.Page helpful for you, designed by WaveParadigm and Invis.

If you have any suggestions for this thread, please feel free to voice them. Much of this is based upon Kyokoro's stagelist thread from Smash 4. This thread features a list of stages (5 in total) with each describing the general competitive situation of the stage. If you feel a stage should be moved from a list to another, please voice so.

Before all of this, it's important to consider the question of the stage hazard toggle. While a great number of stages can be gained, a handful drastically change or become too similar to other stages to reasonably use. Please read here for information of how each stage is affected. While I will not specifically decry the preference of one over the other, the following three are the general rules seen:
  • Hazards left all on
  • Hazards left all off
  • Hazards left all on, but select stages are used as hazardless
The arguments tend to be, in terms of the first two, logistics and less potential issues of misconfiguration, while the last is more idealistic. However, it is important to note that rulesets, at least early on, have leaned towards the last two.

Notes:
  • "Flat Stages" refers to Duck Hunt, Flat Zone X, Dream Land GB, Hanenbow, Super Mario Maker, Mute City (SNES) and Pac-Land.
  • Stages listed with (hazards) or (hazardless) are assumed to be referring to legality under that manner. If it is not specified, it is referring to both.
  • Data for stages can be found here, from Munomario777 Munomario777 . Stages listed in this document are linked to within the spoilers, if available.

Common List
Stages that are widely legal, starter or counterpick on most tournament rulesets.
  • Battlefield
    • Static and basic triplatform stage. Features symmetrical layout.
    • Does not differ across hazard settings.
  • Final Destination
    • Static, flat stage. Features symmetrical layout and transforming visuals.
    • Does not differ across hazard settings.
  • Smashville
    • Basic, flat shape with platform that moves left to right, and goes offstage. A balloon will occasionally travel across the screen, which can be hit and interacts with moves.
    • The hazardless version forces the platform to be stuck in the center, and no balloon spawns.
  • Town and City
    • Basic, flat shape with two different sets of platform layouts; one layout have three platforms with the center one moving up and down, and the second layout having two platforms moving from the center to the sides of the stage. Inbetween these, the platforms move to the blastzones and create a completely flat stage. A balloon will occasionally travel across the screen, which can be hit and interacts with moves.
    • The hazardless version features frozen versions of both layouts, with the platforms not moving, and no balloon spawns.
  • Pokemon Stadium 2 (hazardless)
    • Static stage with two small platforms on the left and right side of the stage. Features symmetrical layout.
  • Yoshi's Island: Brawl
    • A curved, uneven terrain shape with a large center platform that will occasionally tilt. Features transforming visuals. On occasion, a platform will rise on the left or right side of the stage and can be grabbed, rising from the bottom blastzone. Shy Guys will frequently spawn in the center of the stage, which can be hit and interact with moves.
    • The hazardless version features no platform tilting, and the support platforms do not spawn.
  • Kalos Pokemon League (hazardless)
    • A larger, mostly flat stage with two platforms that go slightly offstage. Features symmetrical layout.

Feasible List
Stages that are likely feasible for competitive play, but are not universally present on common rulesets.
  • Battlefield and Omega stages (ignoring Flat Stages)
    • These stages are effectively Battlefield, and largely act the same as the original stages with aesthetic differences.
    • Flat stages are excluded from this list, as they flatten the Z-axis and change move behavior.
    • For stage data, please see Battlefield and Final Destination in the previous section.
  • Unova Pokemon League (hazardless)
    • A larger, mostly flat stage with two platforms that stay onstage, similar to Pokemon Stadium 1 and 2. The sides of the stages are uneven walls.
  • Pokemon Stadium 1
    • A transforming stage with a neutral layout of two platforms on the left and right side of the stage. There are 4 major transformations; one with a large left obstruction in the stage and multiple slanted platforms (Rock), an uneven terrain one with two platforms at the center (Grass), a transformation with two platforms on the side and a windmill with 4 platforms (Water), and one with a longer platform on the right side, and a tree-trunk shape with a side platform on the left side.
    • The hazardless version keeps the stage in it's neutral layout, making it largely similar to Pokemon Stadium 1, but there are slight differences in the overall size and position of the layout (namely the bottom blast zone and width of the stage).
  • Brinstar (hazardless)
    • A three-platform style stage with two platforms that hang over the side of the stage (one is flat, and another is curved), and one that sits unevenly above the main stage. The overall terrain is not even.
  • Warioware, Inc. (hazardless)
    • A four-platform style stage with two on each side (a longer platform closer to the stage, and a shorter one above that). The sides of the stage are walls.
  • Frigate Orpheon (hazardless)
    • A single-platform styled stage, with the platform being on the left side of the stage up to the ledge. The right third of the stage can be passed from below and will occasionally move up and down, which can create a wall.
  • Skyloft (hazardless)
    • A three-platform style stage, with one platform placed above the center of the stage and two longer, slanted platforms that are asymmetrical. The bottom platform of the stage can be passed through from below, leaving the stage with no walls.
  • Halberd (hazardless)
    • A smaller stage with a platform close to the main stage. Features symmetrical layout and small transforming visuals. The bottom platform of the stage can be passed through from below, leaving the stage with no walls during the flying portion. The start of the stage features a 12 second walkoff.
  • Castle Siege (hazardless)
    • A slanted, double tier layout with two platforms on each side of the stage with varying heights. The sides of the stage have uneven walls.
  • Dream Land 64
    • A triplatform style layout similar to Battlefield, which features a different underside shape. Occasionally, a wind-effect will be produced from the stage, aiming left or right, that can move fighters.
    • The hazardless version features no wind-effect, which makes it similar to Battlefield in basic shape.
  • Mushroom Kingdom U (hazardless)
    • A large stage with 3 long platforms at different heights, two on the left side and one on the right. The sides of the stage are solid walls. Features grassy terrain.
  • Lylat Cruise
    • A three-platform style layout with the platforms being close to the general stage. The stage will tilt occasionally at a small angle. Features transforming visuals.
    • The hazardless version features no tilting. There are still transforms with the visuals, but the selected visual is the same across transformations.
  • Midgar (hazardless)
    • A triplatform style layout similar to Battlefield, with a different styled underside. The platforms are differently sized compared to Battlefield, and the underside of the stage is not symmetrical.
  • Wily Castle (hazardless)
    • A flat, box-styled stage similar to Final Destination with a different stage width (1.1x). The sides of the stage are solid walls. Features symmetrical layout.
  • Green Greens (hazardless)
    • A multi-platform stage with two small, passable platforms across the main, larger stage.
  • Wuhu Island (hazardless)
    • A long, single platform stage with slants near the ledge. The bottom platform of the stage can be passed through from below, leaving the stage with no walls. Features transforming visuals.
  • Reset Bomb Forest (hazardless)
    • A triplatform style stage with the platforms favoring the right side, and two smaller platforms. The sides of these main platforms are walls.
  • Norfair (hazardless)
    • A multi-playform style stage with a small, main platform at the bottom, and 4 larger, passable platforms with ledges on the outside stacked above it on the left and right sides.
  • Umbra Clock Tower (hazardless)
    • A flat stage with the exact width of final destination, but an asymmetrical layout beneath the main floor.
  • Kongo Jungle (hazardless)
    • A slanted, semiflat stage with two slanted platforms above the left and right sides of the stage. There are two platforms in the middle of the stage as well. The bottom platform of the stage can be passed through from below, leaving the stage with no walls. Features transforming visuals.
  • Prism Tower
    • A transforming stage that starts on the ground with walkoffs, then slowly scales up the tower, sporting 6 layouts in total: an initial flat layout with a walkoff, a flat layout, a triple platform layout with two platforms over the side of the stage, a single platform above the main stage, two platforms over the side of the stage, and then the flat layout once more, before restarting. The transitions are the exact same each time through. The bottom platform of the stage can be passed through from below, leaving the stage with no walls. Features transforming visuals.
    • Does not differ across hazard settings.
  • Pictochat 2 (hazardless)
    • A flat, box-styled stage similar to Final Destination with slopes at the ledge.
  • New Donk City
    • A transforming stage that starts on the ground with walkoffs and a small platform, then adds in different layouts, including a two platform layout, single platform layout, and four platform layout with platforms going between the walls. Features transforming visuals. The layout differs between trips.
    • The hazardless version removes the musicians (albeit they normally do not affect gameplay).
  • Delfino Plaza
    • A transforming stage that starts on a basic platform and randomly transitions through a variety of different layouts, including ones with large single spherical stages and water, triple hard platforms with water, multiple flat, multi-tiered stages with walkoffs, and a layout with multi-tiered platforms (with the outside being soft platforms). Features transforming visuals and water. The layout differs between trips.
    • Does not differ across hazard settings.
The next two stages in this list currently suffer from apparent issues that affect their viability, with exact issues italicized.
  • Fountain of Dreams
    • A triplatform style layout similar to Battlefield with a larger side wall. The two side platforms will change position and sometimes fall beneath the stage.
    • The hazardless version features no platform movement, making it quite similar to Battlefield in basic shape.
    • The stage currently suffers from occasional framedrops on either settings due to the graphical intensity of the 2-4 player version of the stage. This is regardless of hazards on or off.
  • Yoshi's Story
    • A triplatform style layout similar to Battlefield, which features a slant next to the ledges and solid walls on the side of the stage. A cloud platform will occasionally appear on the side of the stage, traveling back and forth in a rectangular pattern. In addition, Shy Guys spawn throughout the stage, which can be hit and interact with moves.
    • The hazardless version features no Shy Guys or cloud platform, which makes it similar to Battlefield in basic shape with slants near the ledges.
    • The hazards form of the stage currently suffers from an issue where Shy Guys will spawn with items regardless of the settings of them in the game's ruleset. The hazardless version does not have this issue.

Suspect List
Stages that are not likely suited for competitive play, regardless of hazards. These are due to general size, randomness in hazardless form, issues with stage geometry, etc.
  • Any hazards version of a stage listed above that was not specified
  • Hyrule Castle 64
  • Saffron City
  • Mushroom Kingdom
  • Yoshi's Island (Melee)
  • Temple
  • Great Bay
  • Onett
  • Venom
  • Bridge of Eldin
  • Port Town Aero Dive
  • Distant Planet
  • Hanenbow
  • Mario Bros.
  • 75m
  • Luigi's Mansion
  • Shadow Moses Island
  • Summit
  • New Pork City
  • Green Hill Zone
  • 3D Land
  • Golden Plains
  • Paper Mario
  • Gerudo Valley
  • Spirit Train
  • Dream Land GB
  • Mute City SNES
  • Mario Galaxy
  • Tomodachi Life
  • Find Mii
  • Living Room
  • Balloon Fight
  • Tortimer Island
  • The Great Cave Offensive
  • Coliseum
  • Flat Zone X
  • Palutena's Temple
  • Garden of Hope
  • Wii Fit Studio
  • Boxing Ring
  • Gaur Plain
  • Wrecking Crew
  • Windy Hill Zone
  • PAC-LAND
  • Suzaku Castle
  • Moray Towers
  • Big Battlefield
  • Peach's Castle 64
  • Super Happy Tree
  • Corneria
  • Delfino Plaza
  • Spear Pillar
  • Pirate Ship
  • Mario Circuit
  • Arena Ferox
  • Gamer
  • Super Mario Maker
  • Pilotwings
  • Duck Hunt
  • Magicant
  • Great Plateau Tower
  • Dracula's Castle
  • Rainbow Cruise
 
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#3
Collision issues are present on the underside and slants, making it unsuited for play unless it is patched
Is there some source for this? If you're referring to the Young Link/Wolf clipping clip, we've already seen that happen on multiple other stages, giving us a strong indication that this isn't a Lylat issue. If there are other issues then I'd like to see them.

I'm somewhat optimistic about Lylat staying legal. Unless there are issues I'm unaware of, the benefits of keeping Lylat seem to greatly outweigh the costs, and it's competitively viable.
 

Akiak

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#4
Peach/Daisy seem to have issues grabbing the ledge while descending with Parasol. So far this is the only issue that we know is still present in the game (there was something similar with Kirby's up-B but it hasn't been recreated yet)

However, this is pretty much 100% avoidable if you know what to do, so it's not that bad (I don't know the specifics).

I don't think Lylat has much of a reason to be banned at the moment, at worst it should be a counterpick.

Also, Yoshi's Story Melee (hazards off) has a decent chance. The differences between it and BF are comparable to SV and YIB. Other than that the info seems on point.

edit: this might help
Screen Shot 2018-12-09 at 07.55.39.png
 
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Gunla

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#5
Is there some source for this? If you're referring to the Young Link/Wolf clipping clip, we've already seen that happen on multiple other stages, giving us a strong indication that this isn't a Lylat issue. If there are other issues then I'd like to see them.
That would be the case (referring to said clip).

I think another part of the issue that I was a bit hesitant to bring up in the OP is that, largely, there's still a fairly glaring resentment of Lylat as a whole from multiple games and it's carried over to this one. Despite the fact that, yes, the stage is likely not really totally unviable (it probably could end up as a counterpick), the stage seems to suffer from a stigma from players, one that I don't think is totally unwarranted at that point.

Also, Yoshi's Story Melee (hazards off) has a decent chance. The differences between it and BF are comparable to SV and YIB. Other than that the info seems on point.
I think if the food issue is resolved it'll probably be a safe counterpick at worst.
 
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#6
That would be the case (referring to said clip).
As I mentioned earlier, this is most likely not a Lylat-specific issue.

Despite the fact that, yes, the stage is likely not really totally unviable (it probably could end up as a counterpick), the stage seems to suffer from a stigma from players, one that I don't think is totally unwarranted at that point.
Most TOs I've talked to think it's fine (hazards off). We've never played on hazardless Lylat Cruise before, and most issues from previous games were due to the tilting, which seems to be gone now. The stage is, most likely, a fine legal stage (and now that the game is out, people can try it for themselves).

I think if the food issue is resolved it'll probably be a safe counterpick at worst.
Food is only an issue with hazards on, hazards off Yoshi's Story is potentially legal (might be too similar to Battlefield though).
 

Shieldlesscap

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#7
Ok, I’m just wondering, why can’t any of these stages work as counterpicks:
- Mario Maker (Seems to only have 1 layouf that appears when hazardless)
- Gamer (Ditto for the above)
- Kongo Jungle 64 (Definite counterpick, but it’s not too terribly awful)
- Umbra Clock Tower (Hazardless I’m pretty sure it’s just FD with an extra platform)

Also I’m still mad about Hazardless Duck Hunt. They took out the Duck and Dog which wasn’t a problem but not the trees which were
 
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#8
Ok, I’m just wondering, why can’t any of these stages work as counterpicks:
- Mario Maker (Seems to only have 1 layouf that appears when hazardless)
- Gamer (Ditto for the above)
- Kongo Jungle 64 (Definite counterpick, but it’s not too terribly awful)
- Umbra Clock Tower (Hazardless I’m pretty sure it’s just FD with an extra platform)
Mario Maker and Gamer still have random layouts, Kongo Jungle 64 leads to circle camping, and Umbra Clock Tower doesn't have any extra platforms (so it's basically a modified FD).
 

Shieldlesscap

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#9
Mario Maker and Gamer still have random layouts, Kongo Jungle 64 leads to circle camping, and Umbra Clock Tower doesn't have any extra platforms (so it's basically a modified FD).
Ok, I understand the random layouts and UBT, but how does KJ64 promote circle camping? It has 2 levels, but if you try to platform camp, the opponent can jump onto your level, and if you try to go back down and the opponent follows you, for most characters the platform is too high up to reach with your double jump alone, so you can’t just safely switch between them unless you’re fighting Little Mac (Who would obviously ban the stage because of how bad of a matchup he’d have).
 

Akiak

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#10
The Peach Lylat issue, for those who missed it:
This is pre-release, but has been confirmed to still be in after the update. This, however, is the explanation that it's consistent and avoidable:

Edit: here's the Kirby glitch, which is apparently also still in:

Apparently the Peach/Daisy issue also happens on any sharkable stage, whereas the Kirby glitch only happens on Lylat and Venom.
 
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El Sabroso

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#11
- Umbra Clock Tower (Hazardless I’m pretty sure it’s just FD with an extra platform)
Umbra Clock Tower (Hazardless) still features some beasts in the background including one that emits an attack towards the stage, it does not hit but creates a lot of "visual noise" in the whole main platform, might feature some walls in some points but my friends and I didn't got hit there while playing
 

Dan_X

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#12
I have question regarding turning stage hazards off in general. Is it possible to turn stage hazards off for certain levels or is it an all or nothing switch that turns all stage hazards off or on? I haven't found any way to turn of stage hazards on a level by level basis but I'd love to. I get the impression from the OP that it's possible.
 

Munomario777

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#13
I have question regarding turning stage hazards off in general. Is it possible to turn stage hazards off for certain levels or is it an all or nothing switch that turns all stage hazards off or on? I haven't found any way to turn of stage hazards on a level by level basis but I'd love to. I get the impression from the OP that it's possible.
No, it’s not possible. The only way to play some stages hazards-on and others hazards-off is to manually back out of the game and change the ruleset. There’s already been a slip-up in a local tournament using this method, and in online play it’s outstandingly impractical due to how battle arenas work.



New thread hype, gonna post my list in here soon. Not sure I like the idea of compiling personal opinions on every stage in the OP, though, Gunla Gunla – would probably be better to just list the facts about each stage (eg “Skyloft has a semisoft floor” etc), to avoid introducing bias in the thread. Listing all the facts would be a great resource to have, but drawing conclusions from them oughta be what the discussion in the thread is for, no? :p
 
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Chaos_lord2

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#14
OK, I'm going to summarise a lot of what was discussed in the later parts of the old thread and put it here so nothing gets forgotten:

One of the big discussions was not so much the stages themselves but how to select them as everyone noticed that even with just the green and yellow stages in OPs list (which I can easily argue more additions too) there's a good 18 stages, which is a lot more than striking than get through in a timely manner, and there was strong arguments that the old starter/CP system was fundamentally flawed at encouraging stage variety as you could win only on starters, causing it to be better for players to learn starters, causing CP only stages to go unused. To solve this though required there to be a change in the way stages are selected to either make striking more efficient, or solve the issue some other way. The methods discussed that didn't get shot down fairly trivially are (in no particular order).

It should be noted that most of these examples pertain to game 1 only, as a method of doing counterpicking efficiently and while dealing with similar stages is known, as this can easily be combined with a rule to prevent offering similar stages.

Another big topic was just how liberal the stagelist should be with unusual stages, and how/when/if stages should be tested as a rule. It was noted that there was a rather extreme, possibly generational, gap, where several older users from the pre-streaming melee days argue that the game did fine back when counterpicks included hazards on green green and mute city in stark contrast to the more modern sensibilities where anything remotely unusual gets written off as jank. If this seems a tiny bit biased it's likely because there was no really conservative advocator in the thread, the closest being Frihetsanka Frihetsanka (props to sticking around and arguing against the grain BTW, echo chambers do little good), and even he disagreed with the levels some went to to prune the list.

IRL happened. more edits later.
 
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Skeleghost

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#15
Should those discussions of stage selection methods be moved over to the Competitive Ruleset Discussion thread? Then this thread can be more focused on the legality of individual stages, as well as their mechanics. That seems like the reasonable thing at this point, unless I'm misinterpreting the intent of each thread.
 
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#16
At this point in time, most/all major TOs have settled on regular stage striking game 1 (with 5, 7, or 9 starters), character before stage game 1, and regular counter-picking game 2-5. This also seems to be the trend on Reddit, so it mostly seems to be some people on Smashboards who keep trying to make up new stage selection methods. At this point in time, it seems highly unlikely that we'll end up with anything drastically different from stage striking/counter-picking. I suggest we accept this and move on to discussing individual stages.

Hazards mixed is mostly dead, too, since we have evidence that people will mess up, and the benefit isn't great. Stage morph is likely dead as well.
 

Skeleghost

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#17
Yeah, I kinda figured that trying to get folks to adopt a better ruleset was unlikely, but I figured it's worth a try, seeing as the 'regular' method seemed like one of the worst that anyone discussed, at least one paper.

I would've been surprised if hazards mixed had actually survived. For that to work, people have to NEVER forget to change the ruleset. That's a tall order. But what happened with stage morph? Is it just another matter of it requiring people to come up with new rules, or is there an actual disadvantage to it?
 
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#18
But what happened with stage morph? Is it just another matter of it requiring people to come up with new rules, or is there an actual disadvantage to it?
For one thing, Stage Morph kills people (even pros) unless both stages are exactly the same (like BF/FD). So in practice we'd just see BF/FD Stage Morphs (and you can't use Stage Morph online).
 

Skeleghost

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#19
That makes sense, I figured that if there was an actual reason, it's that the morph itself was too disruptive. I feel like it's still debatable whether it should be used or not, but I suppose it doesn't matter if everyone has made up their minds.

Edit: Just so we're clear, I'm not saying stage morph should be banned, just that it might get banned whether or not it makes sense to do so.
 
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#20
These things have been discussed quite a bit in various Discords, which seem to have been the main forums for actual discussion (it doesn't seem that Smashboards attracts many community figureheads like prominent TOs or players, for some reason).

Anyway, now that the game is out people can test various stages for themselves.
 

Gunla

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#21
No, it’s not possible. The only way to play some stages hazards-on and others hazards-off is to manually back out of the game and change the ruleset. There’s already been a slip-up in a local tournament using this method, and in online play it’s outstandingly impractical due to how battle arenas work.



New thread hype, gonna post my list in here soon. Not sure I like the idea of compiling personal opinions on every stage in the OP, though, Gunla Gunla – would probably be better to just list the facts about each stage (eg “Skyloft has a semisoft floor” etc), to avoid introducing bias in the thread. Listing all the facts would be a great resource to have, but drawing conclusions from them oughta be what the discussion in the thread is for, no? :p
Giving it some thought, it would probably be better to just list some basic facts about the stages for both manners (eg: on the topic of PS2, there aren't really any major issues that arise from the stage that would hurt it's legality and it's true that trying to do basic pro-con can result in more bias, apologies). For the most part I've been a bit busy with finals but I'll try to refine it a bit sometime today.

EDIT: Tried to give it a decent rewrite, and moved a few stages.
 
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dav3yb

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#22
I can't understand why Prism Tower is in the red list, and Halberd in the Yellow. There really isn't anything that can be said against Prism Tower that wouldn't also apply to Halberd. Prism is probably the least offensive touring stage they've ever had.

Also there is absolutely nothing wrong with Wario Ware Inc. Small blast zones is not any kind of reason for banning a stage. I can't believe people actually think it should be banned.
 

Gunla

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#23
IAlso there is absolutely nothing wrong with Wario Ware Inc. Small blast zones is not any kind of reason for banning a stage. I can't believe people actually think it should be banned.
I personally don't see a whole lot wrong with the stage myself, but I think it's hard to ignore at least noting the reason why it's been banned at some tournaments at launch.

I can't understand why Prism Tower is in the red list, and Halberd in the Yellow. There really isn't anything that can be said against Prism Tower that wouldn't also apply to Halberd. Prism is probably the least offensive touring stage they've ever had.
Looking into rulesets, it seems that Prism has been mostly avoided because of the transformations (many of the stages seen legal at some early tournaments so far have minimal transformations like T&C). While ultimately I do like Prism myself, it's another case of it being rather hard to ignore that some of the basic policy is that transformations with walkoffs seem to be less preferred by players, even if said walkoff isn't terribly long.

On the other hand, Halberd does not have transformations in hazardless, but doesn't seem to be considered with hazards on because of the Combo Cannon and such. Overall I haven't really seen Halberd being legal too much either which is why it's Yellow.
 

dav3yb

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#24
I still wish people would give green greens a shot. I'd be curious to see how oppressive the supposed camping is.

I also still see no reason to cut any of the stages without solid base platforms. I haven't seen this massive issue of sharking yet that people keep fear mongering about.
 

Akiak

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#25
One thing which I really think we need to change this time around is the counterpick process. PXP1 or X-2-1 are far superior to X bans.
pXp1: loser picks X stages, winner picks 1.
X-2-1: loser picks X stages, winner bans X-2, loser picks 1.
The main issue with bans is that 'borderline' stages (such as WW and Frigate) are cast in a much more negative light, since players have to ban them every set if they don't like them, leading to a feeling of 'wasted' bans.

With PXP1 (and X-2-1) on the other hand, this doesn't happen. The 'disliked' stages never enter the equation, meaning they're only there for those who want to use them.

Of course another way of making borderline stages less problematic is 'increasing the bans'. The equivalent to this in PXP1 and X-2-1 is simply increasing X. This gives the winner ample choice to avoid stages he doesn't want to go to.

Other benefits to these systems include being much easier to work with for larger stagelists, and just being much more newcomer-friendly, since it doesn't punish anyone for forgetting a stage.

It also opens up to the possibility of grouping, but that's a separate matter.

Edit: The main reason I'm making this point is that a number of people seem to be coming out and expressing concern over stages such as Frigate, WW and CS. All I'm saying is, as long as the stages are not overly polarising and make for interesting gameplay for at least some matchups, then we should keep them (granted we use the systems above).
 
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Munomario777

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#26
TBH splitting the stages into "tiers" still introduces bias. Like, since Wuhu, Prism Tower, etc are in the group that you denote as "not legal," people are gonna overlook them despite their viability as stages.

You're also misunderstanding some important details about stages. For example, Halberd does indeed have its transformations with hazards off. Wuhu Island, meanwhile, does not (I assume you put it in the "absolutely not legal" tier due to thinking it transformed, since you allow other semisoft stages like Brinstar and Skyloft).

Here are some other errors or oversights:
- Yoshi's Island (Brawl) lacks the Fly Guys h'less (hazardless).
- WarioWare, Inc. only has smaller side blast zones. Its ceiling is higher than average.
- Skyloft is not symmetrical. The left-hand edge and left-side platform are further away from the center than their equivalents on the right-hand side of the stage.
- Yoshi's Story should be noted to have a smaller main platform, different platform positions, and smaller blast zones than Battlefield.
- Wily Castle should be noted to have larger-than-average blast zones.

IMO, the OP of this thread should be a compilation of non-obvious facts or properties of stages, with the stages listed in no particular order. Stuff like blast zone size, stage width, collision shapes, documented bugs, and etc, without any commentary on the stages' viability, would be a great resource. As-is, I worry that putting stages into a category labelled "stages that won't be viable" is a poor idea.
 

Shieldlesscap

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#28
One idea we could potentially do is create some Battle Arenas dedicated to playing on specific disputed stages, just to see what people do with the possibly busted options on certain stages, and then go off of what we learn from those arenas to decide what is and isn’t legal.
 
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#29
One idea we could potentially do is create some Battle Arenas dedicated to playing on specific disputed stages, just to see what people do with the possibly busted options on certain stages, and then go off of what we learn from those arenas to decide what is and isn’t legal.
I'd support this.

Spent all weekend playing WoL and posting this late at night from my phone. Will give the OP a proper read tomorrow.
 

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#30
Nice format Gunla Gunla c:

Just a reminder of what I said on the other thread: There are TOs watching the general discussions to understand most points of view.
The Panda Global is trying to get the ruleset for Genesis locked at january 1 so there is a lot of analysis, test, input and decisions to be made in this period.


Now, TOs also generally agree that is far more efficient to leave all hazards off to avoid consuming time by resetting games with the wrong rules, specially now that the only real reason to keep them is one single stage that isn't even bad with hazards off.
I'll engage more in discussion later today, it's been quite the stressful weekend but I am alive and back.
:196:
 

Shaya

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#31
I believe the ideal we're looking for in the stage tiers are more so a reflection of what we see at tournaments/discourse (at this early stage just what notable series have released) and the general reasons (not to say these are infallible) given for them.
It might be a tad early to designate some things like we have (e.g. Prism Tower). That's fair to argue, refining the lists is definitely a goal of sorts.

If a tournament series does opt to have a stage legal, that would be a fair evidence to help justify a reevaluation of what tier the stage has been given.

IMO, the OP of this thread should be a compilation of non-obvious facts or properties of stages, with the stages listed in no particular order. Stuff like blast zone size, stage width, collision shapes, documented bugs, and etc, without any commentary on the stages' viability, would be a great resource. As-is, I worry that putting stages into a category labelled "stages that won't be viable" is a poor idea.
A separate topic for just that purpose would be worthwhile to make and have been made for previous games. I'm sure one would be made eventually.
 
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#33
Okay I've finally gotten a good night's sleep after a marathon weekend of character unlocks and WoL.

I think I agree that a strictly objective list of stages and their properties, without attempting to group them into lists, is better for the OP at this early stage in order to avoid unintentional bias. I don't have much issue with the content of the lists as written (with a few exceptions that can mostly be filed under "has anyone really tried playing on this stage yet?") but it's definitely premature to be sorting the stages like this already. As someone on Reddit pointed out, it's physically impossible to have had even a hundred hours of playtime in the game yet, including time spent unlocking characters and generally exploring everything it has to offer, e.g. WoL. (Although if you went nonstop with no sleep, you might reach it at some point tonight.) This should be the time for experimentation, not...limitation, or whatever the opposite word is. You get the sentiment.

So, the quibbles I have: Green Greens, Reset Bomb Forest, Norfair, and Wuhu Island. Since it's such a small list, I'll talk about them in detail.

Green Greens: The gaps here are tiny. Seriously. I'm pretty sure even Little Mac can clear them with a single short hop, and there are ledges on each side to boot. The stage is completely open underneath, so Ness and Lucas aren't hosed if they fall in. Because the side platforms are slightly lower than the main platforms, a good number of projectiles simply can't reach the main platform without at a short hop. I think this has interesting implications for the idea of projectile camping on this stage, which would otherwise be a concern.

Reset Bomb Forest: The gap is larger, but there's a platform over the top that completely spans its width, again making life easier for Little Mac (and other poor jumpers) when he crosses over. The gap is wide enough for both Ness and Lucas to recover without issue -- I've personally done it as Lucas when approximately in the middle, which would be the worst case scenario in terms of potential clearance for PK Thunder. (Ness's has a larger turning radius so he might need to be more to the side.) There's a high platform on the right side that could potentially lead to early kills off the top, but in my so-far-limited experience on this stage I've had very little success trying to camp it for cheese.

Norfair: The layout's unusual, and the main concern is characters with good speed and/or air mobility being able to run away forever against characters without. This is where my experience falters because, as it turns out, I don't use a whole lot of characters where this is an issue. I'll admit it's likely that someone like Ganondorf or Dr. Mario would find it difficult-to-impossible to catch up with, say, a Jigglypuff who keeps floating between the two top platforms, but I feel that in my apparent role as devil's advocate I should be advocating for a few matches here as proof and documentation. Online or whatever would be fine, as long as neither player is sandbagging.

Wuhu Island: On a fundamental level, this stage is pretty much Skyloft with a different layout. Sharkable platform, no transformations. I have no idea why it's in the red list.
 

Shieldlesscap

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#34
I agree with Green Greens and Wuhu, but RBF has ceilings iirc which you can tech, right?

As for Norfair, this might be a bit too far because it’s just too centralizing. Yes, it is slightly false equivalence because of the layout not being symmetrical, but at that point, might as well legalize Magicant too.
 

Untouch

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#35
Can somebody explain to me the problem with both Green Greens and Reset Bomb Forrest? I don't really see why those 2 aren't in the Orange or Yellow list.
Large stage, low ceiling.
I don't think the gaps are as large of a problem as others, but the low ceiling is.

I feel the only problem with Wuhu is the weird curved ledges, will make edgeguarding a pain.
 
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#36
I agree with Green Greens and Wuhu, but RBF has ceilings iirc which you can tech, right?

As for Norfair, this might be a bit too far because it’s just too centralizing. Yes, it is slightly false equivalence because of the layout not being symmetrical, but at that point, might as well legalize Magicant too.
Reset Bomb Forest has no ceiling.

Norfair is symmetrical, I'm not sure what you're getting at there. Magicant is banned because there's a tiny platform underneath the main stage you can camp, like a worse version of the Kongo Falls rock. (I'm super salty about this BTW, Magicant is IMO one of the prettiest stages in the game.)

EDIT: Regarding low ceilings on Green Greens/Reset Bomb Forest, I thought we were in the market, so to speak, for smaller blast zones anyway? Since Yoshi's Story's size got standardized to Battlefield levels and Halberd's ceiling was extended to be taller than the average now. AFAIK the only noticeably small blast zones are on Warioware, and only on the sides.

This assumes GG/RBF's ceilings are in fact smaller than average in the first place, I haven't looked up any datamines for them.
 
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Galgatha

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#37
Large stage, low ceiling.
I don't think the gaps are as large of a problem as others, but the low ceiling is.

I feel the only problem with Wuhu is the weird curved ledges, will make edgeguarding a pain.
But didn't T&C have a really low ceiling? Yet that was still legal and one of the most used stages in Smash 4 Tournies.

I think those two should be moved up a few placements.
 

Shieldlesscap

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#38
Oh, I was saying the Magicant wasn’t symmetrical and assuming that was part of why it was banned, but my point was that the layout lends itself to camping either way

That said, since you mentioned Kongo Falls, THAT stage should probably be tested as well, since camping on the rock doesn’t seem like as big an issue as people are making it seem. I mean, if you’re camping on the rock and they approach, your only viable escape option is to jump back toward the stage, which leaves you wide open for being hit. Yes you can camp on it but doing so isn’t exactly putting you at an advantage.
 

Munomario777

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#39
This assumes GG/RBF's ceilings are in fact smaller than average in the first place, I haven't looked up any datamines for them.
As a matter of fact, Green Greens and Reset Bomb Forest have very ordinary ceilings. Green Greens is 190, while Reset Bomb Forest is 195. For reference, Battlefield has a ceiling of 192. For Green Greens, this is measured from the ground level of the center island. Reset Bomb Forest is just measured from ground level.

I haven't included the data for those two stages yet, but I have a handy document which compiles this data for many stages in Ultimate based on the collision files. Gunla Gunla – if you'd like to fact-check for the OP, feel free to reference it :) (PS – I didn't @ you in my previous post, so I wasn't sure if you'd read it :p)
 

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#40
Thoughts on 'starters':
Starters are clearly not going away. They're too ingrained as a shorthand for where to start a match that TO's aren't just going to abandon the system. I do think that playing starters ONLY on the first stage could be a welcome change, added much needed variety to sets. It would be terrible to have all these nice stages and still play on smashville 3 times.

Here's what I think a starter list, optimized for variety, could look like:
  • Battlefield (triplat)
  • Final Destination (flat)
  • Pokemon Stadium H/off (diplat)
  • Smashville H/on (monoplat)
  • Town & City H/on (Triplat/Diplat/Flat transition)
    • Fountain of dreams could also be substituted for Town & City (being a triplat/monoplat transition).
This starter list includes one of every common format, plus a transforming stage.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thoughts on some borderline stages:

Yoshi's Story (H/on)
-Randall
-Shy guys bring food
-Slants near ledge
Whether or not you think yoshi's story H/on should be legal or not seems to depend on the shy guys. Being a triplat isn't inherently bad, and having randall+slants makes YS ineherently different. The real problem is the shy guys. They can get in the way of aerials and they bring food. Personally I don't think this is a bad thing. They don't drop maxim tomatoes (as far as I know), so it could create interesting dynamics around people racing towards a donut or whatever (like the balloon on smashville). Extremely likely to be legal, more dubious as to whether it should be counted as battlefield or not.

Halberd (H/off)
-Static
-Can go through platform
-Gradual slopes
-Low ceiling?
Being a stage with a low ceiling isn't inherently bad, it just makes halberd a counterpick instead of a starter. Other than that, I see little reason to complain about halberd. Its slopes and monoplat are different from both Wuhu Island H/off and Yoshi's Island, so there's a good argument that they should be treated separately.

Warioware (H/off)
-Quadplat
-Small blast zones
Close blast zones do not a bad stage make. Warioware has a unique quadplat format seen nowhere else, and it could be really interesting as a vertically-oriented stage. There's a lot to like here, and dying early seems like a bad argument to be made when we don't really know if any character specifically is broken on this stage (the way characters like diddy were broken on halberd/delfino in smash 4)

Castle Siege (H/off)
-Diplat
-Slope
-Parapet blocks your view offstage on the right side
I think a lot of people would really like this stage to be legal, but that battlement on the right side blocking your view is super obtrusive to edgeguarding. Nobody wants 'striking to castle siege to avoid getting edgeguarded' to be a real strat, so I'm on the fence here. It's a unique format that could add a lot to the stagelist, but cheese is still cheese.

Rainbow Cruise (H/off)
-Unique vertically oriented diplat
-High ground on right side
-Main platform is so close to the blastzone its almost a walkoff
I really like this stage, but I don't think its viable. Altitude changes without a slope almost always mean camping. That's why pilot wings got banned. And it's probably why this is banned. The blastzones are also so close it's nearly a walkoff, with almost no room on-screen for edgeguarding to speak of.


Frigate Orpheon (H/off)
-Unique formats
-Transforms
-Short period of low ground
Orpheon is a really unique stage of a reasonable size with very reasonable blast zones. My only gripe with it is the low ground that can appear because of the moving platform. However, the stage changes quickly and you can't camp there for more than a few seconds. The ceiling also seems kinda high, which gives it value as a counterpick.

Lylat (H/off)
-Unique Triplat
-Jank
Nobody likes this stage and we all know it. Yes its a unique format, but we always have problems with clipping, ledges, etc. There's lots of very reasonable technical reasons to ban this stage, even if there's nothing wrong with it from a layout perspective. Tilt or no tilt if there's ledge issues it's gotta go.
 
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