Meta SSBU Stagelist Discussion

[Frihetsanka]

Hazards on might actually be viable now. I'm not entirely convinced yet that we should make the switch but it's worth testing at least. Potential stages: Battlefield, Small Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Hollow Bastion, Fountain of Dreams, Northern Cave, Town and City, and Yoshi's Story.

"But Frihetsanka, doesn't Yoshi's Story bring food?" Nope, not anymore. There might be other reasons to drop it but it's worth considering.

 

[Harper]

Hazards on might actually be viable now. I'm not entirely convinced yet that we should make the switch but it's worth testing at least. Potential stages: Battlefield, Small Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Hollow Bastion, Fountain of Dreams, Northern Cave, Town and City, and Yoshi's Story.

"But Frihetsanka, doesn't Yoshi's Story bring food?" Nope, not anymore. There might be other reasons to drop it but it's worth considering.

I'm all up for a Hazards On stage list. Definitely worth testing with the stages listed.

 

[NotLiquid]

A few people in my locals are very reticent to switching to a Hazards On ruleset and I think unwillingness to self-impose a shift despite people often clamoring for bigger meta changing balance patches to do it for them is more than a little hypocritical, even if I can understand people finding the actual logistics to be a headache. But there's a genuine argument to be made that the Yoshi's Story change and addition of Hollow Bastion kind of obsoletes older stage lists. By switching to Hazards On you'll have two single platform stages that are distinct from one another, a more unique triplat stage, and a greater reason to shine a spotlight on both Small Battlefield and Northern Cave in lieu of the Pokémon options. The only two stages you lose out on are Kalos and probably Lylat; two stages that are often contested for numerous reasons.

It's worth experimenting with at the very least.

 

[BlazGreen]

Speaking purely from a spectator's view I'd love to see a shakeup on the stage list. Of course the players and TO's are more important to the conversation but if we aren't going to be recieving any more balance updates then I hope people are open to trying something new.

 

[Gunla]

As DLC has wrapped up, a brief write-up over several stages added since launch has been added to the OP, notably viable stages (Hollow Bastion, Northern Cave, Small Battlefield) and moving stages across categories (Yoshi's Story glitch being fixed, Lylat).

 

[StrangeKitten]

I feel like there's no reason not to experiment with hazards on. Losing the Pokemon stages and Lylat isn't much of a loss, imo, when we have viable alternatives that work with hazards.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I've been playing more hazards on and I'm a big fan of it, I think it's likely the way to go. That way we can run Smashville with the moving platform and Hollow Bastion, which is similar to Smashville hazards on. Town & City feels more unique and better with hazards on too.

I'm doubtful of Fountain of Dreams and Yoshi's Story, but it might not be bad if they were tested a bit more before we disregard them. Northern Cave could be legal assuming the background isn't too much of an issue, but it does have some redundancy issues with Final Destination (similar neutral given that the side-platforms don't affect neutral all that much). Seems we have a minimum of six good and unique stages for hazards on, which is really interesting. Hazards on seems to avoid the issues with redundancy hazards off seems to struggle with. Is it time to move on to hazards on?

 

[Nekoo]

I've been playing more hazards on and I'm a big fan of it, I think it's likely the way to go. That way we can run Smashville with the moving platform and Hollow Bastion, which is similar to Smashville hazards on. Town & City feels more unique and better with hazards on too.

I'm doubtful of Fountain of Dreams and Yoshi's Story, but it might not be bad if they were tested a bit more before we disregard them. Northern Cave could be legal assuming the background isn't too much of an issue, but it does have some redundancy issues with Final Destination (similar neutral given that the side-platforms don't affect neutral all that much). Seems we have a minimum of six good and unique stages for hazards on, which is really interesting. Hazards on seems to avoid the issues with redundancy hazards off seems to struggle with. Is it time to move on to hazards on?

From what some TO said, the issue is that people complain "muh no PS2"

 

[Frihetsanka]

From what some TO said, the issue is that people complain "muh no PS2"

That's probably the main issue. So then the question is, what's more valuable, PS2, or hazards on Smashville + better Town & City + better balance? I think the latter is more valuable and the stage list would be more varied and better balanced with a good hazards on ruleset. We do lose Pokémon Stadium 2 but we have stages to (somewhat) replace it anyway.

 

[teluoborg]

The gentleman favorite is slowly switching from PS2 to SBF in my region so "no PS2" isn't as big an issue as people make it to be.

IMO the real argument for hazards on is that it is possible to make large stage list composed of unique stage layout.

For example the H+ list I recommend currently

-Battlefield is removed because while FoD and YS are pretty different from one another they are both similar to BF so keeping it legal increases the redundancy by a lot
-with this we have 7 unique layouts so we only need one ban in the counterpick phase which leads to an increased stage diversity during counterpick phase (which is IMO the biggest flaw with the current 8/9 stages 3 bans system we see in the current meta)
-a lot of stages have dynamic elements which increases the number of scenarios and give the "stage mastery" aspect of competitive smash more depth.
-it also gets rid of the "Kalos/Northern Cave" dichotomy

The main problem that comes with this list is that by raising stage diversity you add more things to learn for competitive players in a game where you already have a very diverse and potent character cast, asking even more work from them to get consistent wins. And the direct consequence of that will be that people will complain too much about the stages being "inconsistent" and will vouch for a return to the usual stage list before trying to adapt.

TL;DR I think hazards on is worth a try but it will be unpopular in the beginning and if we really want to test it we must get past this initial reaction.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

The Chicagoland scene and beyond has been looking to experiment more with stagelists, so for the next 3 weeks, Ultimate at Tripoint will be running a new stagelist with hazards on!

The change goes in effect this Friday. Don't forget to register:https://t.co/rSteEA5u5B pic.twitter.com/zakkA67yX5

— UGS Gaming (@UGSGamingLLC) November 17, 2021

Between Xanadu and this. There seems to be a genuine traction going with Hazards On. Maybe it's just down to people being forced to find a new comfort pick on these lists.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I think he's right, especially if Yoshi's Story isn't on a ruleset, since then characters who like flat stages will really have an advantage compared to characters who like triplats. Some local scenes have long banned Kalos but I do think it's fairly commonly legal for larger tournaments?

 

[TCT~Phantom]

I think the number one thing that most tournaments need to do right now is recognize that Final Destination as a starter is unhealthy. I know that Kauzya on FD has kind of become a meme with how strong it is, but FD is probably the most polarizing starter right now by a noticeable margin. It sucks that without doing mixed hazards, there is not a perfect replacement for FD. Hollow Bastion and Small Battlefield overlap with other starters right now, Town and Kalos also overlap with FD and Kalos as Frihetsanka posted above can be seen as having its own issues.

I would say that mixed hazards or character picks before stage picks like Europe does might be solutions. I do think that our current stage list/stage selection methods could use a slight revisit at least.

 

[KazuyaIsGod]

spiral moutain is my very stage for the memories it brings back

 

[Respect38]

The gentleman favorite is slowly switching from PS2 to SBF in my region so "no PS2" isn't as big an issue as people make it to be.

IMO the real argument for hazards on is that it is possible to make large stage list composed of unique stage layout.

For example the H+ list I recommend currently
View attachment 337434

-Battlefield is removed because while FoD and YS are pretty different from one another they are both similar to BF so keeping it legal increases the redundancy by a lot
-with this we have 7 unique layouts so we only need one ban in the counterpick phase which leads to an increased stage diversity during counterpick phase (which is IMO the biggest flaw with the current 8/9 stages 3 bans system we see in the current meta)
-a lot of stages have dynamic elements which increases the number of scenarios and give the "stage mastery" aspect of competitive smash more depth.
-it also gets rid of the "Kalos/Northern Cave" dichotomy

The main problem that comes with this list is that by raising stage diversity you add more things to learn for competitive players in a game where you already have a very diverse and potent character cast, asking even more work from them to get consistent wins. And the direct consequence of that will be that people will complain too much about the stages being "inconsistent" and will vouch for a return to the usual stage list before trying to adapt.

TL;DR I think hazards on is worth a try but it will be unpopular in the beginning and if we really want to test it we must get past this initial reaction.

Why not just do the Smash 4 Dream Land thing and just tie FoD and BF together? Having triplat BF be flatly banned in a ruleset is... odd.