Meta SSBU Stagelist Discussion

[BobbyJackson33]

20m long, For reference Town is 16.4m and FD/BF/SBF are 16m, PS2 is 18.7m.

So Minecraft world is probably better for doubles

 

[ParanoidDrone]

My personal opinion on the new stage after seeing Sakurai's presentation is excellent for casual play but questionable for competitive on account of Gramps's occasional turning to look at the background and altering the ledge position. There are tells for this, admittedly, but given historical trends I doubt it's enough for people to allow it.

 

[Frihetsanka]

The new stage will almost certainly be banned in tournaments.

 

[duxx]

What if hazards off removes Gramp's turning?

 

[Frihetsanka]

What if hazards off removes Gramp's turning?

It will still not be legal. Maybe for Mew2King's online tournament, but not at majors.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It will still not be legal. Maybe for Mew2King's online tournament, but not at majors.

Curious about this. I'm an idiot and managed to forget the hazards on/off distinction and it turns out Gramps doesn't move at all with hazards turned off. It's a completely static stage. Asymmetrical, but static nonetheless.

 

[teluoborg]

I haven't tested the stage thoroughly yet but above average size + asymmetrical layout + asymmetrical blastzones don't look like a competitive setting. Sure it can be played in tournaments, but that doesn't mean it should.

So Minecraft world is probably better for doubles

No because the point of doubles isn't too have a stage so big you get 2 isolated 1v1s

 

[DaUsername]

Cloud Sea of Alrest seems pretty nice. It's relatively small, has a unique platform layout, and doesn't move when hazards are turned off.
I know the People In Charge will find some reason to throw this stage in the garbage, but I like it.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Played a game on Alrest. It seemed alright, kinda funky though. And my Bowser up tilt didn't kill at like 140? Must have a very high ceiling for that to be the case, which isn't necessarily bad, just something I noticed.

 

[IsmaR]

The blast zones seem kinda odd but that feels like a given for asymmetrical layouts.

I played on Hazards on for a while just to give it a shot. Everything from slants to right edge moving seems to condemn it for obvious reasons. Altering heights on Azurda seemed to be what was most frustrating, as it'd mess up certain interactions just like Lylat tilting.

 

[teluoborg]

The blastzones are symmetrical.

Size is 190
Side Blastzones are 255
Ceiling is ~188

So it's a stage that is bigger than PS2 in every regard. The stage is fine, but imo it doesn't have a place in a competitive stage list.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Maybe it's the slope on the side that's doing it, but it doesn't feel bigger than PS2 to me. Huh.

 

[teluoborg]

Yes that's it. In hazards on sometimes gramps stretches his neck and you can see how long it really is, but with the slope it feels more closed.

 

[Frihetsanka]

LOL I HATE U I BET U DIDNT EVEN WATCH IT TO LEARN THE FACTS/STATS (with that said even someone like myself, who's open minded to stages, is mostly against this one tbh)

— Jason Zimmerman (@MVG_Mew2King) March 22, 2021

Even Mew2King is doubtful of this stage.

 

[Frihetsanka]

So, starters. Small Battlefield, Battlefield, Pokémon Stadium 2, and Smashville seem fairly given. For the 5th, it's Final Destination, Northern Cave, or Town & City. I'm currently leaning either Final Destination (standard pick, I know) or Northern Cave.

Northern Cave has the advantage of probably being more "neutral" than FD and it might actually be picked more often (FD is usually struck since it's one of the most polarizing legal stages in the game). NC does have some issues, like music copyright (although some songs are fine?) and potentially people being motion sick due to the background (how big of an issue is this?).

 

[teluoborg]

If you really wanna go 5 starters, which you don't need to but whatever, then you relegate PS2 to CP since it's so big and add FD and LC. SBF SV BF FD LC gets you 5 different layouts. You can replace FD with TC or NC but both stages have a platform layout that makes them significantly bigger, it's only really an issue if you keep PS2 as a starter.

Or alternatively like we do in France you go 9 starters : FD BF SBF SV LC YS NC TC PS2, 3-4-1 striking.

And to answer the question about motion sickness on NC : it does happen, and visibility can be a problem when the meteor lands, but if you have to choose between that and the non interaction of Kalos then NC is still better.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Following the trial period of the last few months, the Australian unified ruleset will be officially used for all future Australian majors, including #BAM12. Additionally, all scenes bar Sydney will be running the unified ruleset at monthlies and weeklies. pic.twitter.com/9nvLrhuxXE

— Australian Smash Ultimate Senate (@AusSmashSenate) May 14, 2021

The Australian Unified Ruleset. 7 starters, character before stages even for counter-picks, 2 bans, no DSR. Kalos, Northern Cave, and Yoshi's Story dropped.

Seems like a fairly good ruleset to me. Personally I'd consider going 9 starters and adding Yoshi's Story and Northern Cave (which is better than Kalos in most aspects), and add one ban (so 3 bans). No DSR is probably the correct course of action, DSR has some major issues and only minor benefits (it's mostly about "variety").

Character before stage pick is the blatantly obvious choice, I'm glad to see that more scenes are adopting it now.

 

[BobbyJackson33]

Quick question, what are the differences between kalos and NC. Besides the base of the stages. Like, which one is bigger and how the blastzones map out?

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Quick question, what are the differences between kalos and NC. Besides the base of the stages. Like, which one is bigger and how the blastzones map out?

Kalos is much bigger in terms of blatzone size. While stage size wise NC is about the same, the platforms on the side are nowhere near as big. NC has blastzones about the size of FD if that helps.

Essentially, the Kalos vs NC debate on size just is do you want another super big stage or something more moderate?

 

[GolisoPower]

I know this might seem a bit too early, but does anyone think Mishima Dojo (That Tekken stage that was shown) might be legal at some point down the line? My points are that it seems almost like Final Destination with KoF Stadium mechanics with those walls (There's some slight pause between the KO blast and the wall breaking which tells me so), and the stage platform is pretty manageable in terms of size. The only thing to consider now is how big the blastlines are, and we might see Mishima Dojo being, at most, a counterpick stage. Anyone agree?

Oh, and to add, thinking about it, it might depend on whether the walls are more like the blocks on Minecraft World or the KoF Stadium walls, as well as whether or not the walls can be turned off. I mean, how else are fighters gonna try and recover on this stage?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

We honestly didn't get a good enough look at the stage to tell yet. We'll have a better idea on the 28 with Sakurai's presentation.

 

[teluoborg]

Quick question, what are the differences between kalos and NC. Besides the base of the stages. Like, which one is bigger and how the blastzones map out?

They both have the same size for the main stage and platforms, but the platforms are lower on northern cave (25, vs 30 for kalos) and closer to the stage by 4 units. That makes the platforms harder to camp on NC because more characters can access them easily.

As for the blastzones,
Sides : KPL=245 NC=237
Ceiling : KPL=192 NC= 177


So while they have the same size, NC has a more closed layout and closer blastzones

 

[ParanoidDrone]

After seeing Sakurai's presentation, Kazuya's stage is probably banned.

• Completely flat, redundant with Final Destination.
• Explicitly noted to have close blast zones with minimal offstage camera scrolling. (The game does show your character's silhouette when obscured by the stage, though, which is nice.)
• They didn't show the hazardless version, but hazards on features walls that break under sufficient knockback. (My money's on hazardless simply doing away with the walls entirely, but even if that's the case the above two points stand.)

 

[Frihetsanka]

Almost certainly banned, yeah. Redundant with FD and tiny blastzones seals the deal, regardless of the walls.

 

[teluoborg]

It certainly is redundant with FD (and PS2, stage is probably a 200er), but even without the walls it can definitely be interesting. Large stage with very close blast zones is quite unique and though I agree that it doesn't have a room in the current stage list it can still be legal somehow.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Contrary to my expectations, hazardless Mishima Dojo still has the walls. And until they actually break, they still function as walls (and ceiling, that's a thing too), so 100% banned.

 

[BobbyJackson33]

Contrary to my expectations, hazardless Mishima Dojo still has the walls. And until they actually break, they still function as walls (and ceiling, that's a thing too), so 100% banned.

Idk....mmmmmmebbe I'll mod this stage to be a bit more like fd

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Port Priority 6's ruleset

Earlier this week, the Western Washington Smash scene finalized its tournament ruleset.

At their recommendation, we’ll be using their tournament ruleset for Singles, Doubles, and Squad Strike at #SixthPort.

Take a look at our ruleset below! pic.twitter.com/CqgnNWrMNP

— Port Priority (@PortPriority) August 10, 2021

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Port Priority 6's ruleset

Earlier this week, the Western Washington Smash scene finalized its tournament ruleset.

At their recommendation, we’ll be using their tournament ruleset for Singles, Doubles, and Squad Strike at #SixthPort.

Take a look at our ruleset below! pic.twitter.com/CqgnNWrMNP

— Port Priority (@PortPriority) August 10, 2021

I’m partial to a 5starter4cp stage list, but I am happy the community is transitioning away from Kalos and towards Northern Cave. Honestly my ideal stage list would be swapping NC and PS2, and adding Lylat and Yoshi’s as counter picks.

 

[iProdigy101]

Excluding Battlefield/Omega forms with hazards off, I think some of the DLC stages like Mementos, Cloud Sea of Alrest, and Northern Cave can be occasional legal stages.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Speaking from a purely functional perspective, the new stage looks legal. No moving parts other than a one-time transition at low time or stock that doesn't seem to affect the actual geometry at all.

 

[GolisoPower]

Yeah, I could see Hollow Bastion being a perfect starter stage at most, and a good counterpick stage at the least.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Speaking from a purely functional perspective, the new stage looks legal. No moving parts other than a one-time transition at low time or stock that doesn't seem to affect the actual geometry at all.

Imo, so long as the blast zones are aight, this should be legal.

also as an aside, Northern Cave getting more love and being legalized at a few locals makes me happy.

 

[BobbyJackson33]

Alright kiddos this stage is completely LEGAL! So don't be comin in my arena saying "tHaTs NoT lEgAl"! NO MORE!.....jk

 

[BobbyJackson33]

But seriously, it does look pretty nice a wider Smashville with Kalos sides. I really dig the transition. I feel like that could make things intense in a hype match.

In my locals we use stages that are pretty legal but aren't used really (Ex: Dream to replace BF, and NC Kalos). We might use this when it comes out.

 

[IsmaR]

No remixes/just the original songs makes the DMCA concerns for majors/VODs very real, but I'd prefer this immensely if the blast zones line up exactly as SV.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

No remixes/just the original songs makes the DMCA concerns for majors/VODs very real, but I'd prefer this immensely if the blast zones line up exactly as SV.

As someone who knows a lot about the KH community, the only time disney gets in a tizzy about a DMCA is for worlds where they play music from the movies. Atlantica from Kh2 or Let It Go from KH3. In terms of the original music, Disney is a lot less strict so I don’t think it will be a massiv

Here is what I think should be our starters/counterpick layout.

Starter

Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Town and City
Small Battlefield or Pokémon Stadium 2

Counterpick
Pokémon Stadium 2 or Small Battlefield
Yoshis Story
Northern Cave
Hollow Bastion

Gonna talk about my choices in a bit more detail.

Smal BF vs PS2: I have the personal hot take that PS2 being the default stage people gentleman to has warped the meta to an extent, but I understand why a lot of people like it. I just don’t think it is the most neutral stage and I think a reasonable case can be made for Small BF as a counterpick. Either way, both are good stages for comp.

Northern Cave: As someone who has had more issues with Umbra the older I get and found Smash 4 FD too much, I don’t find the background that bad. I think this stage as a whole is preferable to Kalos competitively especially with how campy Kalos gets. I know there is some concern with the music, but I have seen people on stream pick FF7 songs on FD or Battlefield and not experience any issues. I also know a lot of locals are adding this stage and I hope this trend continues.

Hollow Bastion: Music is my only concern rn, unless the blastzones are terribad. Rn it seems like a larger smashville which imo would be a lot of fun for the meta. The music I ain’t even too concerned about due to how Disney handles Kh music generally.

 

[Nekoo]

No remixes/just the original songs makes the DMCA concerns for majors/VODs very real, but I'd prefer this immensely if the blast zones line up exactly as SV.

OG world music never get DMCA, which is probably why we got this selection of music by the way.

Only the openings, PoC and Atlantica stuff is DMCA worthy

@someone who's deep in the KH community, Speedruning community and more

 

[TCT~Phantom]

I am gonna make this case once more: legalize Northern Cave.

Before I talk about the issues with Northern Cave and my thoughts on those, lets talk about what this stage offers over Kalos. For starters, the blastzones offer us much more. Kalos gives us one big stage, which to be brutally honest we dont necessarily need. Northern Cave on the other hand offers us not only a slightly smaller stage but notably a stage with a smaller ceiling. Ultimate has had fewer stages with a smaller ceiling, which Northern Cave offers us as a counterpick.

Furthermore, the stage design is also better than Kalos. Kalos's platforms and giant walls let characters recover super easily. Combine that with its huge blastzones and we have a stage where people can live much longer. Now, in concept, a stage where it is easy to recover sounds great, but in practice this makes Kalos' size feel even larger. It is much easier to recover on Kalos than other legal stages due to those side platforms and the ability to fall back on a wall jump. Northern Cave does not have that. Its platforms are closer to the stage. This makes it so it is not nearly as campy or easy to just recover to the side platform instead of Kalos's ledge. The platforms are also lower to the stage.

Now, lets talk some of the issues people might have with Northern Cave

• Similarities to Kalos: While I have discussed how the stage is superior to Kalos, I do get how this stage could be a bad argument, but the two stages really only share a similar geography. Kalos benefits characters that want to live longer and space, while Northern Cave benefits characters that want to kill off the top more consistency. Due to its smaller blastzones and smaller platfomrs, camping Northern Cave is not nearly as easy as camping Kalos. I do think in theory you could have both, but as I explained above given the choice I would take Northern Cave in a heartbeat.
• Issues with music: For the most part, this seems to have disappeared from right after NC was added. I have seen on streamed sets every Final Fantasy song play on BF, Small BF, or FD, so this is not really too much of an issue at the end of the day.
• The Background: Now this issue I can get. I used to say that Umbra was not too problematic, but as I have gotten older it gave me issues. I also have always found Smash 4 FD to be a difficult stage to watch and play on due to its background. But from my experience, Northern Cave is not that bad personally. I have seen at most very limited cases of people complaining about Northern Cave giving them motion sickness, with the bigger complaint from what I have seen is the distracting nature of the stage. Now obviously, I can see why people would be hesitant to legalize Northern Cave. No one wants to in theory waste a ban on NC or lose because it made the sick. But I think this situation is rare enough that we don't need to worry too much. Obviously, if this does turn up, we could easily just accommodate people. But I do not think that we should outright ban the stage when it offers as much as it does when we could just accommodate people who do feel sick on it. As for people complaining about the background, I think that boils down more to people being used to the static backgrounds we have. I could argue Town's background is distracting with how it moves or that FD is distracting for instance.

Now then, I get the reservations, but at this point it seems like we will end up coming to a discussion on Northern Cave again sooner or later. More and more locals are legalizing it and there is at least some interest in the community in using the stage. I understand the arguments against it, but to me Northern Cave offers so much competitively and has a perfect layout for competitive play.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It turns out that Hollow Bastion's dive to the heart segment only triggers for hazards on. I think I'm disappointed, it looks really cool in action.