Meta SSBU Stagelist Discussion

[lordvaati]

K, just gonna dip my 2 pennies here: there is already talk of some TOs dropping Kalos to replace with Northern Crater to possibly be used for Hazards On Stagelists, and really I can be down for that.

As for the critique of the dynamic background, this is my only piece: If Final Destination was actually banned in Sm4sh, I would support it. At the time many proposed a ban of FD due to also having a dynamic background, and replacing it with Omega Battlefield....but it never came to be. So Crater should not have that same burden placed on it here.

Really the only major hurdle is the Final Fantasy music having possible copyright shenanigans, though I wonder if the new pieces made for Ultimate were made to circumvent that.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I'm curious, what's the reasoning for wanting hazards on?

BF, SBF, FD, PS2, SV, T&C, and now NC (music copyright pending) all seem ok to use as starters to me with hazards off, CPs being Kalos, Lylat and YS.

That's 7 possible starters and 3 likely counterpicks. Turning hazards on would remove PS2 and Kalos from the list for obvious reasons, and Lylat would likely get banned simply because too many players hate the way it tilts.

To be fair: If the goal is to minimize the stage list for the sake of simplicity (which isn't a bad thing either, not many players want to bother with a long stage list), then that would do it.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I'm curious, what's the reasoning for wanting hazards on?

BF, SBF, FD, PS2, SV, T&C, and now NC (music copyright pending) all seem ok to use as starters to me with hazards off, CPs being Kalos, Lylat and YS.

That's 7 possible starters and 3 likely counterpicks. Turning hazards on would remove PS2 and Kalos from the list for obvious reasons, and Lylat would likely get banned simply because too many players hate the way it tilts.

To be fair: If the goal is to minimize the stage list for the sake of simplicity (which isn't a bad thing either, not many players want to bother with a long stage list), then that would do it.

I supported Hazards On for a while, but with Minecraft World in the question it now seems unfeasible to me.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Turning hazards on would remove PS2 and Kalos from the list for obvious reasons, and Lylat would likely get banned simply because too many players hate the way it tilts.

Yoshi's Story would die as well, but Fountain of Dreams could be legal instead. I don't think hazards on is worth it but it's more viable now than before, at least. 7 stages isn't bad.

Having both Kalos and NC legal is a very bad idea, so now we have to decide which one to drop, Kalos or NC?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Yoshi's Story would die as well, but Fountain of Dreams could be legal instead. I don't think hazards on is worth it but it's more viable now than before, at least. 7 stages isn't bad.

Having both Kalos and NC legal is a very bad idea, so now we have to decide which one to drop, Kalos or NC?

Realistically, I'd have to say Northern Crater gets the axe. Its background doesn't bother me in the slightest, but I'm aware that not everyone can say the same thing. Between that and the specter of potential FF music rights issues for streamers, it seems like the safest option.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Yoshi's Story would die as well, but Fountain of Dreams could be legal instead. I don't think hazards on is worth it but it's more viable now than before, at least. 7 stages isn't bad.

Having both Kalos and NC legal is a very bad idea, so now we have to decide which one to drop, Kalos or NC?

I’d go with Kalos. The fact is that NC offers us a better sized stage. Having a stage that doesn’t incentivize camping as bad as Kalos is such a boon. I would say that this background is not nearly as bad and Sm4sh FD, and we kept that despite literally having perfect alternatives. The new remixes also can potentially give a bit of an out for copyright, but that is tbd. I just feel that the stage overall offers more by limiting the number of huge stages.

I would be open to both in the same ruleset, but if I had to chose NC in a heartbeat. If we have SB and PS2 as legal I think that NC and Kalos is not that bad in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Wunderwaft]

If NC's music copyright issue is a problem then just cut the game's audio for that match on the stream and have other music playing in the background until the match is over. This is an easily fixable issue and I don't see why we should pass on an entire stage for it. Hell, some Japanese tournaments already do this with Animal Crossing stages as a solution to the boring soundtrack playing.

As for the dynamic background being distracting, the stage's layout as it is right now is objectively competitively viable, complaints about the background are subjective and shouldn't be used as a basis for banning the stage. If it really does annoy you that much then just strike it.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Fountain of Dreams could be legal instead.

Does the stage still have frame rate issues? Or is it only on doubles matches?

(If it still does, hopefully that gets fixed. FFS, Melee had the same issue, you would think the stage would've been fixed by now).

Having both Kalos and NC legal is a very bad idea, so now we have to decide which one to drop, Kalos or NC?

Personally I prefer NC over Kalos, mainly because of the lower platform height. It feels like a more fast paced Kalos to me.

The stage background doesn't really bother or distract me, but that's a personal viewpoint thing. I have ADHD as well, but ADHD affects everyone differently. My experience isn't the same as someone else's (only bringing that up because I saw a top player with ADHD bring that up on Twitter).

The stage music potentially slapping copyright claims on videos... for me that is the determining factor of the competitive fate for this stage.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

...complaints about the background are subjective...

No, motion sickness is very objective. If this stage triggers it, then it shouldn't be used.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Been playing on Northern Crater and it doesn't cause me the issues I thought it would at first glance. But, since others are reporting motions sickness from it, it shouldn't be legal for that reason.

Edit: Worth pointing out, I play undocked. So I'm looking at a small screen. It just occurred to me that issues with motion sickness would probably get worse the bigger the screen.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

No, motion sickness is very objective. If this stage triggers it, then it shouldn't be used.

We used Sm4sh FD, a stage that had a way worse background for motion sickness and we had a 100% viable option to replace it with with Omega Palu’s. This background is nowhere near as distracting or causing of motion sickness as Sm4sh FD. If we were willing to let that be the bar for a background, NC is fine. The people I know who have motion sickness said that this stage is about on par as Ult FD: not that bad.

If anything, the biggest hurdle is the music, but streams have options to handle that.

At the very least this outside of those two issues seems like a legal stage. I feel that tourneys should test it.

 

[DougEfresh]

No, motion sickness is very objective. If this stage triggers it, then it shouldn't be used.

An issue with this response here is that you're assuming all people prone to motion sickness suffer from it to the same degree, or in this case, Northern Cave will cause problems for every player who has motion sickness when that's clearly not the case. For example, apparently Dabuz has motion sickness and doesn't have any issue with the stage whereas his motion sickness got triggered quite a bit by the Spiral Mountain stage for Banjo (which is not tourney legal for a bunch of other reasons as well). Anecdotally I've heard of other players who deal with similar things and they also are not bothered by it, at least not to any burdensome degree.

I can get behind supporting the players with motion sickness, ADD or ADHD, or even "eye strain related headaches," but why don't we let THEM decide if Northern Cave is problematic before entire regions go striking it down out of tournament legality for that subset of players? It actually seems rather insulting to make that decision for the players with motion sickness/AD(H)D/etc as if they don't know their condition(s) better than TOs do.

As long as competitive scenes and streamers can circumvent DMCA violations potentially associated with the FF7 music that plays on Northern Cave, this can very easily be a great addition to the stage list (to help people complain less about having so many big stages on most current stage-lists for tourneys) while accommodating those hindered by it as needed.

I think it's unwise to make a hard "yes" or "no" based on any of the complaints I've seen about it so far and the community should at least adjust, if not entirely change, their mentality if they want to promote better stage and character diversity for tournaments and be more solution-oriented than entitled as has often been the case so far. There's a way to be empathetic to subsets of players with medical conditions that need to be paid attention to and respected and not making a decision that would seem to serve primarily to pander to them because of those conditions when they may not even need it. I say at least give it an honest shot as a legal stage and TOs can come to a region-based consensus after some time thoroughly testing the stage to determine the actual severity of these alleged complaints and keep it legal or ban it accordingly.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I can get behind supporting the players with motion sickness, ADD or ADHD, or even "eye strain related headaches," but why don't we let THEM decide if Northern Cave is problematic before entire regions go striking it down out of tournament legality for that subset of players? It actually seems rather insulting to make that decision for the players with motion sickness/AD(H)D/etc as if they don't know their condition(s) better than TOs do.

To be fair, the first thing I saw were complaints about motion sickness (in fact, the very first thing I saw was someone claiming that it was worse than Umbra Clock Tower, which is banned for that reason alongside it being Final Destination 2.0). Perhaps I've been given a disproportionate view on it, but I do think that if it is that bad, then it shouldn't be legal.

 

[DougEfresh]

To be fair, the first thing I saw were complaints about motion sickness (in fact, the very first thing I saw was someone claiming that it was worse than Umbra Clock Tower, which is banned for that reason alongside it being Final Destination 2.0). Perhaps I've been given a disproportionate view on it, but I do think that if it is that bad, then it shouldn't be legal.

If there actually are a significant number of players with severe enough motion sickness that it literally is unplayable, then that's one thing. But there is a reality check that this is the smash community we're talking about; the community that will complain first and ask questions later even when it works against some of their very own interests and it's very easy to believe something is more dire than it is because of a vocal minority. I also think players with significant difficulties can just be allowed to strike it from the stage selection for their sets so it still doesn't need to be a universal ban but rather a case-by-case ban that the player(s) with those problems can make to keep things competitively fair between him/her and his/her opponent(s). Like I said, I'm in favor of supporting them where it's needed, but NOT letting them play such a significant role in those decisions if they're just trying to get their whole region to ban Northern Cave because of their condition(s) alone, especially when the subset of players with extreme variants of medical conditions that the stage may trigger consistently is probably even lower than the subset of players with those issues at all.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

FD doesn't trigger motion sickness for me, neither does Lylat Cruise. I think its specifically physical looking objects that sets off the motion sickness, at least for me. Clocktower and Northern Cave have physical objects moving around while the main stage isn't. Lylat Cruise does have things in the background at times, but the motion is a lot slower and its not as dominating as Clocktower or Northern Cave which is probably why that doesn't trigger it.

Venom doesn't trigger it for me either. Main guess there is once again, speed. Its a pretty slow ride and its at a consistent speed.

Forgot all about Banjo's stage: yeah that's the worst one in the game for me overall. That spinning around and around the stage is just barf inducing.

As for "just let the people with motion sickness use one of their strikes on it": why should I be unfairly disadvantaged because I have to burn a strike on it for non-MU reasons? Can't just say "well it's not part of the stage selection process for those people" because it throws out the stage striking balance if its in the running to be a neutral (would have to remove two stages, good luck getting everyone to agree what other neutral is removed with it), and you'd have to deal with people either claiming the other person is faking it for a "free strike" or people actually faking it for a free strike.

I realize people are hungry for new legal stages, and it sucks to have to ban a stage over something like that... but we need to ban it over something like that. A level playing field is a level playing field. Just because we did it incorrectly in the past doesn't mean we continue to do it incorrectly now.

 

[Melonsismyusername]

Northern Cave is Essentially Kalos V2 Imo, and it should prob be banned or swapped with Kalos

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

Northern Cave is Essentially Kalos V2 Imo, and it should prob be banned or swapped with Kalos

That or make NC a started and kalos the countrrpick.

 

[Frihetsanka]

That or make NC a started and kalos the countrrpick.

Which stage would NC replace in this scenario? Final Destination? And wouldn't there be issues with having FD, Kalos, and NC in the counter-pick list? Even if we assume 3 bans one who struggles on FD/Kalos-like stages would have to spend all three bans on that, and that leaves other stages wide open.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

Which stage would NC replace in this scenario? Final Destination? And wouldn't there be issues with having FD, Kalos, and NC in the counter-pick list? Even if we assume 3 bans one who struggles on FD/Kalos-like stages would have to spend all three bans on that, and that leaves other stages wide open.

It should replace town and City one of the most polarising legal stage we have.

FD/NC are more different that FD/T&C, is a small stage compared to either Kalos and T&C, yes the neutral can be similar to FD but that is still an improvement compared to T&C or Kalos.

 

[Melonsismyusername]

Why would the stage list need NC, what does it change enough to impact matchups?

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Why would the stage list need NC, what does it change enough to impact matchups?

Running NC over Kalos impacts the meta quite a bit actually. The stage is noticeably smaller, meaning campy characters lose a strong stage. Take Joker for example. Joker likes Kalos since he gets to camp and live long enough to generally get Arsene twice a stock. Other characters who make good use of Kalos are Snake and especially Sonic. If you want a meta game with less camping and more Aggro, running a smaller stage (it’s about FD size but Kalos is huge) like NC instead just makes sense. The stage isn’t bad for these characters mind you, just worse than Kalos.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Bad news for NC:

cool cool cool cool cool

so I guess Final Fantasy music isn't safe on YouTube even though it's liTERALLY IN THE FUCKING GAME ALL WE DO IS PLAY GAMES AHH

COPYRIGHT IS BROKEN pic.twitter.com/oIASW9uyPT

— Echo Storm (@echo_storm) January 2, 2021

I had the same thing happen to me with JENOVA's theme while I was uploading tournament VODS.

Sad. https://t.co/nLH0hZetOP

— SkeTcH (@Sketch_XR) January 3, 2021

Seems copyright is likely to be an issue.

 

[Patriot Duck]

I was also thinking that copyright might be an issue. It should be noted that NC is currently on stream for GIMR's Sephiroth Invitational, music and all. I think this will be a good litmus test for DMCA-related issues.

 

[Frihetsanka]

It may be that only the Smash remixes are safe to use. Has anyone gotten smacked for using those yet? Because I haven’t seen that happen yet.

— John Numbers (Same @ on BlueSky!) (@JohnNumbers) January 3, 2021

Keep in mind that it may be safe to use the Smash remixes (Aerith's Theme, Cosmo Canyon, etc.). I've only seen reports of people getting smacked for FF7 and AC music, but not the remixes yet.

— John Numbers (Same @ on BlueSky!) (@JohnNumbers) January 3, 2021

Quick question about Northern Cave to content creators: Has anyone been hit with Content IDs or strikes for using any of the Smash remixes (Aerith's Theme, Cosmo Canyon, etc.)?

People have been smacked for using FF7/AC tracks but I have heard naught in regard to the remixes yet.

— John Numbers (Same @ on BlueSky!) (@JohnNumbers) January 3, 2021

Perhaps some songs will be allowed? If so, that would help a lot for majors.

 

[IsmaR]

The remix thing has been advice since Brawl, with mileage varying greatly depending on the property (Earthbound, Crush 40/Sonic-"like" songs, and as implied, Square Enix who up until now just got original composition/MIDI versions save for trailers, all have been notoriously awful). It's a ticking time bomb/no one wants to be the one that finds out, as infuriating as the situation is.

As I've alluded to before, it becomes a hassle when considering adjusting (or outright muting) all the music for every stream set up specifically for one stage. Not every player is going to be aware of the issue, given lots of players do things like music "counterpicks" or just by virtue of it being something you don't think about (imagine trying to enjoy content literally in the game you purchased as you please).

This on its own doesn't seem like it'd be a deal breaker, but coupled with everything else (similarity to other stages, distracting background, match up dependent advantages as with all "variant" stages, etc.) the case gets real ugly. Especially with DMCA issues potentially worsening, both with U.S./livestreaming laws and Nintendo/YouTube/Twitch/other copyright holders themselves becoming more aggressive in claiming/striking videos, much less their policy for whenever tournaments become prominent again.

Likely that it won't be decided by a single factor/be an "up for discussion" topic once we start hearing from TO's much more informed on the subject.

 

[Melonsismyusername]

NC seems like too much hassle for how little it's different than Kalos

 

[BobbyJackson33]

Wait has anyone used Minecraft world in a tournament? The Tundra stage is pretty much Kalos with the stages in.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Wait has anyone used Minecraft world in a tournament? The Tundra stage is pretty much Kalos with the stages in.

It's too big.

 

[BobbyJackson33]

It's too big.

Oh wellll

 

[Frihetsanka]

They talked about stages for about 16-17 minutes here, I timestamped when it begins:

 

[GolisoPower]

So, uh, anyone see the new stage that'll come with Pyra & Mythra? It looks a bit small, and Azurda's neck movement might throw off some matches, so I might lean towards banned unless it stays flat on Hazards Off.

 

[BobbyJackson33]

So, uh, anyone see the new stage that'll come with Pyra & Mythra? It looks a bit small, and Azurda's neck movement might throw off some matches, so I might lean towards banned unless it stays flat on Hazards Off.

Yeah I think he's a, mover oh well. The last stage was a homerun though.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Almost certainly banned, yeah.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Hopefully Gramps keeps his ****ing head down on Hazard's off. There is at least some precedent that hazards off does turn off the stage does not move as much, FOD and Yoshi's being good examples. If Gramps needs to exercise than yeah the stage is toast, but if not it looks...interesting pending the blast zones.

 

[Galgatha]

Honestly we should at least try out the stage at locals and minors prior to banning it, imo. We have become way to quick to ban stages for pretty ridiculous reasons, and it causes both player stagnation and viewership stagnation (I can only watch Poke'mon Stadium 2 so many times before wanting to turn off a stream).

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Honestly we should at least try out the stage at locals and minors prior to banning it, imo. We have become way to quick to ban stages for pretty ridiculous reasons, and it causes both player stagnation and viewership stagnation (I can only watch Poke'mon Stadium 2 so many times before wanting to turn off a stream).

While I agree if the wall or Gramp’s neck is very frequent it likely will kill the stage. Walls are not kosher.

 

[Galgatha]

While I agree if the wall or Gramp’s neck is very frequent it likely will kill the stage. Walls are not kosher.

Permanent walls, yeah. I personally don't have a problem with temporary walls like in Frigate Orpheon,

 

[BobbyJackson33]

Wait how long is Minecraft world compared to Town And City

 

[Galgatha]

Wait how long is Minecraft world compared to Town And City

Not sure, though I would imagine they are roughly the same size. Maybe Minecraft world is slightly longer?

 

[teluoborg]

Wait how long is Minecraft world compared to Town And City

20m long, For reference Town is 16.4m and FD/BF/SBF are 16m, PS2 is 18.7m.