Meta SSBU Stagelist Discussion

[ParanoidDrone]

Mementos is LOOKING legal.
There is a stage element that's a ceiling of life, BUT it seems to spawn later.
If that doesn't spawn with hazards off, I think it should be legal. It's battlefield with a slanted stage and one less platform.

If the ceilings/walls come in with hazards off, I will be shocked.

Can't really make that call until we know what the actual blastzones are. Could be massive for all we know.

Based on the brief gameplay footage shown, it looks to be on the large side (bigger than Battlefield at least) but not excessively so. PS2 tier, at worst. The slope in the middle and the high center platform both have implications for zoners, so I'm very excited to see it tried out.

 

[Munomario777]

mementos looks AMAZING

here's a size comparison

 

[Frihetsanka]

From what I've seen, it seems likely that it's going to end up banned, but unless it has some glaring issues (such as a ceiling or really bad blastzones) it should be tested.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Imo mementos looks very promising, a unique platform layout that reminds me of Metal cavern (which should have come back . ). Stage is what bigger tho, looks about pokemon stadium size.

Given how stage lists have gotten more conservative I can see it being looked at harshly but I think provided music is not a no go it looks very nice. Should be fun to test.

 

[Untouch]

It's a bit large, but the stage layout makes camping less desirable.
I think it could work.

 

[ぱみゅ]

mementos looks AMAZING

here's a size comparison

View attachment 209327

I can't update to 3.0 vause my console will be used for a regional tournament this weekend and they said we would keep it on the current version.
But still, the main issue I see is that it might be a little too big. We'll be testing thoroughly.

 

[TheYungLink]

Really hoping hazardless Mementos becomes legal, and that the blast zones aren't an issue.

 

[webbedspace]

I dunno, folks… looking way too similar to Mushroom Kingdom U. Also, not having a right-side platform sounds like it'd be fun but would possibly permit clockwise circle-camping in ways that Battlefield doesn't.

 

[ATH_]

As much fun as speculation is, we should not be making conclusions and final decisions on Mementos's legality before we have the stage?

I'm a huge Persona 5 fan myself, but I'm not going to let that bring bias into this. We don't know the data, and none of us have played on it. It's very possible that the solid platform is there in its hazardless version, which for most people would equal an instant ban.

However, it's also possible that it's a very simple stage with a unique layout, fit to be a counterpick. We won't know, and no amount of speculation will get us closer until we have the stage ourselves.

Here's to hoping we get some Persona 5 music on a legal stage ^^

 

[SJMistery]

Mementos hazardless should be legal and replace castle seige

Why replace it? The more legal stages available the better. Plus the slant of both stages is mirrored, there is no reason to compare them.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Also why Castle Siege? Castle Siege is the smallest stage that is used in some rulesets and this one appears to be one of the biggest if not the biggest.
That would be a really odd replacement. Should replace PS1 or PS2 if at all.

 

[DaUsername]

Oh hey, Mementos actually looks pretty viable!
That won't stop it from getting banned for no reason, but still!

 

[lordvaati]

Hazardless Mementos is probably the closest we get to having Metal Cavern coming back since I'm getting similar vibes in it's design.

 

[Munomario777]

Why replace it? The more legal stages available the better. Plus the slant of both stages is mirrored, there is no reason to compare them.

Also why Castle Siege? Castle Siege is the smallest stage that is used in some rulesets and this one appears to be one of the biggest if not the biggest.
That would be a really odd replacement. Should replace PS1 or PS2 if at all.

siege is getting phased out in general due to wacky design and unpopularity, so in that sense, mementos would "replace" it compared to the genesis ruleset

 

[Sean²]

You all can kick me if I'm wrong, but I feel like the rightmost solid platform on Mementos will remain static with hazards off. The walls, ceilings, and train will go away, but I feel like they'll be mean enough to leave that in.

 

[Lacrimosa]

siege is getting phased out in general due to wacky design and unpopularity, so in that sense, mementos would "replace" it compared to the genesis ruleset

I'd wish the wall would just become transparent. It really isn't more to do.
Can't be that hard to program as other games get this right and that for a very long time.

 

[NewGuy79]

seems like hazardless Memento is just the asymmetrical duo plat.

seems the only issue that I could gather would be size, but even then the side blast zones seem to be fairly standard it just the top blast zone from the rightmost part of the stage that seems far.

too early to tell but I'm initially for legalizing it, as a half and half mix of battlefield and FD it seems really interesting.

 

[ATH_]

Really hoping Mementos isn't asymmetrical like Skyloft.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Really hoping Mementos isn't asymmetrical like Skyloft.

It never was.
Fight me.

 

[NotLiquid]

I did some early testing in training mode for kill percents. Obviously no DI is accounted for in either examples, take with a grain of salt etc.

Testing kill percents with Mario on Final Destination, I get these percentage ranges
Uncharged USmash from center stage: 124%
Uncharged FSmash (sourspotted) from edge: 80%

Testing kill percents with Mario on Mementos, I get these percentage ranges
Uncharged USmash from high ground: 124%
Uncharged USmash from low ground: 128%
Uncharged FSmash (sourspotted) from edge: 81%

I also tested Town & City for prosperity's sake since it has a high ceiling, I got the same percent as I did Mementos on the low ground.

If this stage gets banned, it won't be because it's "too big". For all intents and purposes this stage seems to have roughly the same ceiling as Final Destination. Possibly even the same horizontal blast zones as the percentage doesn't account for margin of error.

The only logistical reason I can see this stage getting banned is if there's rights issues with music. Several stages in the past have been banned because of music licensing concerns.

 

[OnyanRings]

Oh man, legal Mementos would be so sweet ! Probably not gonna happen but it would be fun :>

 

[KirbyMonadoBoy]

Blastzones are fine, the slope is negligible, stage size may be big but certainly not too big and luckily no wall or 3rd solid platform. Perfect!! Mementos definitely has to be legal. 3 different stage colors, many awesome songs and a unique new stage layout would add so much to the current stagelist.

 

[Sean²]

I suppose people can line up to kick me now.

Seems like a legit counterpick possibility. I don't know how easy it'll be to camp either side or what effects it will have on projectiles via the slope. I had concerns for camping the left side, but it looks like taller characters may be able to get hit through the platform if they're not crouching? I couldn't download the update until this morning so I didn't have much time to mess around on it. I'll have to do so later.

My biggest thing was it seems like stage control would hover more around controlling the left side, so a majority of the fighting would really centralize on the right side, I think. I don't know how big of an issue that will be, but it seems like starting the match on the right side would start you out at a significant disadvantage due to the lack of a 3rd platform.

 

[Untouch]

WFT sun saluation isn't even stopped by the slope.
Can't say anything about other projectiles, but the slope doesn't really interfere.

 

[Sean²]

Does it stay along the same angle and go through the floor/cover the ledge on the higher side like on CS? That will probably be a big complaint if it does. Or does it actually hug the slope and move with the angle?

I was thinking more Link's boomerang and other stuff that can bounce off floors and walls. If you hit CS's slope with Links' boomerang it would fly off at a wonky angle.

 

[Untouch]

Yeah it just clips through the ground, I don't think it does that on CS though.

 

[Sean²]

Some pretty good gameplay here with Mementos involved already.

It does seem like the right side just after the slope feels more like center stage than the actual center of the stage. Not saying this is a bad thing, just something to note.

 

[NewGuy79]

Already I'm seeing the stage list debate cropping up again in full force it seems, we may have to dust off the old debate about changing the method of stage selection.

our standard method of pick ban has already proven to have a noticeable effect on the actual size and variety of most stage list due to how long and how complicated it is to implement with larger ones.

this has changed the discussion from what stages should be legal? to how many stages should be legal? which is a disappointing shift in discourse I say so myself.

Ideally, any stage that does not have glaring issues should be playable in a competitive setting Wario ware and which islands included, instead of debating the size and content of the stage list I instead think it would be a lot more beneficial to debate how to create a method of picking stages which is fair and fast regardless of the size of the stage list.

 

[Nekoo]

Ideally, any stage that does not have glaring issues should be playable in a competitive setting Wario ware and which islands included,

Look, I'm all for stage diversity, and I believe that Mementos could be and probably should be conterpick worthy but.

Warioware?
Dying at 40% vs Wolf? Or a character doing a Wall of pain?

 

[ATH_]

Personally, I love Mementos as a competitive stage. It seems to strike this interesting balance between camping on the right and comboing on the left. There's an interesting dynamic where I find myself actively trying to keep my opponent from a specific side, because I know they'll have an advantage there. It's a unique layout that actually brings something completely new to the table, who would've thought? Adding it to my lists, all of them!

That makes this list now as my current "Ideal" stagelist for competitive play:

Starters

• Battlefield
• Smashville
• Pokemon Stadium 2
• Kalos Pokemon League
• Lylat Cruise

Counterpicks (3 bans)

• Yoshi's Story
• Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
• Unova Pokemon League
• Final Destination
• Town & City
• Mementos

Already I'm seeing the stage list debate cropping up again in full force it seems, we may have to dust off the old debate about changing the method of stage selection.

our standard method of pick ban has already proven to have a noticeable effect on the actual size and variety of most stage list due to how long and how complicated it is to implement with larger ones.

this has changed the discussion from what stages should be legal? to how many stages should be legal? which is a disappointing shift in discourse I say so myself.

Ideally, any stage that does not have glaring issues should be playable in a competitive setting Wario ware and which islands included, instead of debating the size and content of the stage list I instead think it would be a lot more beneficial to debate how to create a method of picking stages which is fair and fast regardless of the size of the stage list.

This post makes a lot of claims without actually giving reasoning for either side.

You see, there's a lot of reasons the stage selection has been so stingy. A few of the big ones being:

• This is the first official Smash game where we have so many options that we don't have to put in what i call "Pity Stages", that is, stages for the sake of having a larger list. In Melee, they have 3 triangle triplats as starters because well... there's no other options. We don't have that problem in this game.
• We have a new problem of having to determine what a balanced and good stagelist actually even is. This is due to there being so much more control in this game. We have so many options for different layout-types and sizes and blast zones that we have to have a solid foundation to make a good stagelist.
• A lot of viable stages in this game are huge. This brings a big problem where TOs try to balance it with smaller stages, but because there's less small stages, they're much more polarized.
• Stage discussion is much more widespread now, it's a popular topic. People are polarized about every stage, admittedly or not. They'll say being pineappled is bad on one stage, but still love PS2, Smashville, and Town & City. They'll say walled stages are great because they help and hurt certain recoveries, bringing a new aspect to the game, but then they'll say Unova is bad because some recoveries are hurt if you willingly go under the curve of the stage. This leads to the last point.
• TOs are being demanded for consistency above everything. There has to be a meaning to the stagelist. There's a rhyme, a reason, and a rationale.
• Lastly, you can't just put all the viable stages onto one big list. Not only will this slow down tournament play, but it'd be far too unbalanced. Think about a list with Pictochat 2, Final Destination, Wily's Castle, Kalos Pokemon League, AND Town & City all legal. They're all viable stages, but having all of them together brings a huge imbalance across matches. So, it's best to pick the 2 or 3 you want of each layout and go from there.

It's not about "how many stages should be legal", it's about so much more. The reason we go into the details, the data, and the coordinates of ledges, platforms, and blast zones, is all because we're trying to achieve a balanced stagelist that remains fun for the players.

 

[Mapet]

I haven't seen any discussion of Fountain of Dreams since 3.0 dropped. It looks to me that the framerate issue was taken care of (although I didn't do much analysis, I just played on the stage a bit). If it is indeed fixed, would its legality be reconsidered?

 

[Munomario777]

Mementos is amazing! Ruben has some good data on the stage. Here's some important bits, taken from some of his tweets + replies to his tweets + the stage visualiser:

- Ceiling: 190 (effectively 180 from the left half of the main stage, which is raised by 10)
- Ledge-to-blastzone: 160 (the same as FD)
- Stage width: 200 (a character width or two greater than PS2's 187)
- Platform heights: 35, 55 (effectively 25, 45 from the left half of the main stage; compare to Battlefield's 24, 47)

So it's a wide stage with normal side blastzones and either a standard low ceiling or a standard high ceiling (based on the side of the stage you come from). Awesome!

For those skeptical about the width, here's an ingame comparison between it and PS2, via Stage Morph:

Spoiler

This makes the ideal list (imo):

Starter
- Battlefield
- Kalos (or Town)
- Smashville
- Unova
- PS2 (WHICH HAS A LESS OBNOXIOUS JUMBOTRON NOW, YAY!!!)

Counterpick
- Yoshi's Island
- Yoshi's Story
- Town (or Kalos)
- Lylat
- FD
- Mementos

3 stage bans, TSR (if you CP somewhere and win that match, you can't CP there again)

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I haven't seen any discussion of Fountain of Dreams since 3.0 dropped. It looks to me that the framerate issue was taken care of (although I didn't do much analysis, I just played on the stage a bit). If it is indeed fixed, would its legality be reconsidered?

With hazards off, doubtful. You'd need to make a case for how it's appreciably different from Battlefield to warrant including in the same stage list.

If we could selectively turn hazards on for individual stages, it would be an easy yes, but unfortunately that's not the world we live in. (Insert we live in a society meme here.)

Munomario777 Using stage morph to directly compare the two ingame is a stroke of genius, I never considered that.

 

[Sean²]

I haven't seen any discussion of Fountain of Dreams since 3.0 dropped. It looks to me that the framerate issue was taken care of (although I didn't do much analysis, I just played on the stage a bit). If it is indeed fixed, would its legality be reconsidered?

If it has been fixed, which I haven't tested, you have to run back through the argument for a 3rd triplat, since most TOs have settled on using hazards off as a standard. Yoshi's Story is different enough from Battlefield to warrant its legality considering the side platforms hang over the ledge, the main platform being a pillar as opposed to (primarily) floating, and slight variations in total size and shape, etc. FOD has the same blastzones as BF, and is only ~5-6 units smaller than BF. YS is about 24 units smaller and has smaller blastzones to boot. So you'd need to argue why FOD is necessary when BF and YS also exist.

Hazards on, I'd say definitely allow it, not hazards off though.

I guess that's another thing - if FOD is (possibly) fixed, has anyone tested if the Shy Guys on YS still drop food with hazards on? I'm never near my switch when I think of these things.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Yoshi's Story is different enough from Battlefield to warrant its legality considering the side platforms hang over the ledge[...]

Honestly I thought the platforms were flush with the ledge. Which is still different from Battlefield, mind you, but nonetheless.

 

[Sean²]

Unless its an optical illusion, it looks to me like they hang over slightly.

 

[Mapet]

The solution I've seen other people come up with is Have a ruleset *specifically* for the hazards-on stage you want. You do that by setting the stage selection to random, then removing all stages from the random selection except the stage you want. So if the standard tournament ruleset has hazards off, you'd just need to back out to the Rulsests menu, select the hazards-on stage ruleset, and you're good to go. I have this set up for Smashville and Fountain of Dreams and it works pretty well.

 

[Vapor_exe]

You know what could be cool, in each match, it would be hazards off first, then hazards on on the second match, have a different stage list for hazard on and off.

 

[Fenriraga]

I think Mementos would make for a very interesting counterpick.

Too bad it'll never happen because anything deemed ever so slightly "weird" is pretty much auto banned but w/e.

...Though I CAN see the music being a problem. Atlus is very... protective.

 

[nu1important]

Have any of you considered using the new stage builder to improve the stage list? And I don't mean creating brand new original competitive stages, I mean using the stage builder to fix the stages we already have. You guys couldn't do this the last 2 games because there was no way to share created stages with everyone, and there was no way to be sure everyone had the same created stage to play on. But now all you have to do is upload the stage to the server, post the stage code on this site, twitter, tumblr, etc., and have all the competitive players download the exact same created stage.

You know how you guys are always going on and on about how Wario Ware would be a great competitive stage if only the blast zones weren't so close to the stage? You can now go into stage builder and recreate Wario Ware's stage layout pixel for pixel, and make the blast zones as far away from the stage as you want.

You can do this with any stage in the game to turn it into something competitively viable. Spear Pillar? Get rid of the pokemon and cave of life. Dracula's Castle? Turn the walls into slopes and remove the existing slope on the right. Temple? make it smaller and remove the cave of life. Mario Galaxy? Get rid of the walk-offs. Skyloft? Solidify the semi-solid main platform. Umbra Clock Tower? Use a background that won't cause seizures. Lylat Cruise? Make a stage that doesn't tilt and redesign the edges so they are no longer "jank".