Meta SSBU Stagelist Discussion

[Terotrous]

I do agree that the stage might be just a bit too large for competitive play. Letting Mementos to be legal would also mean making New Super Mario Bros. Wii U stage legal. If we would not allow it to be legal when Mementos would be then we would be seen as a bunch of hypocrites.

I don't think this is true, due to the very different platform layout of the two stages. The platform layout on Mushroomy Kingdom U has much more circle camping potential than Mementos. Despite its large size, Mementos forces interactions between the players much more.

And let's be real here... Only reason why people are even suggesting that stage to be legal is due to the Persona series and its music.

I think it's actually more related to fatigue with the current stagelist, though the music probably doesn't hurt.

 

[Sean²]

Honestly, only the red version is kind of hard to look at. The blue and yellow ones are fine color wise imo. Maybe some colorblind people would have issues, but I don't think anyone, even those colorblinded, would have trouble with all 3 versions.

And if it does end up mostly banned, you can still use the FD or Battlefield versions if you want the music.

 

[FartyParty]

I want Mementos to be legal. The current legal stages are so limited and have so many similarities. Mementos would add some much needed variety to the mix. The awesome music is just a bonus. I don't think the complaints about size are valid. The left to right distance between edges is comparable to Kalos or PS2 and the blast zones are comparable to Battlefield. Complain about the slope in the middle if you want, but if you're a good player you should be able to adjust. If you're good enough to have a shot at winning a tournament, then dealing with that slope should be, at worst, a minor obstacle to work around. On a smaller stage like Castle Siege or Yoshi's Story, I can see how the slopes can be a bigger problem, but it's not nearly as much of an issue on a larger stage like Mementos.

At the very least, if Mementos isn't legal for singles, it should 100% be legal for doubles, and there isn't a single valid argument to the contrary.

And while we're at it, I also think Wily's Castle should be legal. It's basically FD with Kalos-style edges.

 

[Munomario777]

I think the stage could still potentially be ok, but there are definitely important arguments against it. Planning to give it a shot at my next online tourney still

 

[Sean²]

I want Mementos to be legal. The current legal stages are so limited and have so many similarities. Mementos would add some much needed variety to the mix. The awesome music is just a bonus. I don't think the complaints about size are valid. The left to right distance between edges is comparable to Kalos or PS2 and the blast zones are comparable to Battlefield. Complain about the slope in the middle if you want, but if you're a good player you should be able to adjust. If you're good enough to have a shot at winning a tournament, then dealing with that slope should be, at worst, a minor obstacle to work around. On a smaller stage like Castle Siege or Yoshi's Story, I can see how the slopes can be a bigger problem, but it's not nearly as much of an issue on a larger stage like Mementos.

At the very least, if Mementos isn't legal for singles, it should 100% be legal for doubles, and there isn't a single valid argument to the contrary.

And while we're at it, I also think Wily's Castle should be legal. It's basically FD with Kalos-style edges.

My biggest problem with 1v1 on Mementos is that the fighting centralizes super hard on the stage's right side. Controlling the right side is almost equivalent to controlling midstage on more symmetrical stages. I feel like stage control should still be primarily centralized on controlling midstage. This was the case on CS because CS is so tiny that you had no room to breathe on either side, so you could effectively control the stage from the center (or close to center). On Mementos, you have an 'out' on the left side for escaping pressure, but this doesn't exist on the right side.

While I like Wily Castle as a pillar alternative to FD (I used to think it should be stacked on FD), it's larger, has a higher ceiling, and farther blastzones than FD. It's a bit too different from FD to be stacked, but a bit too similar to be concurrently legal with FD. So it'd almost be a "one or the other" situation because of how polarizing some matchups can be on FD-like stages. And since we have Kalos and Town here to stay for now, I want to say Wily Castle doesn't have much of a home in most rulesets unless FD gets the boot first.

 

[Frihetsanka]

From what I've gathered, if it's legal the music will have to be muted on streams due to copyright, so that certainly doesn't help the stage. Ultimately it seems to be too big though so copyright issues are not the main issue.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

From what I've gathered, if it's legal the music will have to be muted on streams due to copyright, so that certainly doesn't help the stage. Ultimately it seems to be too big though so copyright issues are not the main issue.

AFAIK the only series with copyright issues on music are Mother, and maybe Sonic and Final Fantasy. I know the subject of Persona music being subject to copyright has been thrown about a lot ever since the DLC dropped but I have yet to see any evidence of it beyond forum comments like this.

 

[Frihetsanka]

AFAIK the only series with copyright issues on music are Mother, and maybe Sonic and Final Fantasy. I know the subject of Persona music being subject to copyright has been thrown about a lot ever since the DLC dropped but I have yet to see any evidence of it beyond forum comments like this.

Apparently there are a bunch of stages that have copyright issues (more than just Mother/Sonic/Final Fantasy) but it's not really openly spoken about, so I don't know which stages, but apparently Mementos is one of them.

 

[ATH_]

Plenty of Smash Ultimate streamers have used persona music in monetized youtube videos and on stream. Leffen, VoiD, ZeRo, and Alpharad to name a few.

While a tournament is certainly different, it's not automated. If Nintendo sponsors it, I doubt there would be any issues. Especially not with every single song. You can't just group all of them under "persona music" and "sonic music" and say they're all copyrighted, that's just not how it works. The new remixes especially wouldn't count toward that copyright. It's a shame that FF only gets two songs, which is why the copyright becomes a huge issue.

 

[WritersBlah]

For what it's worth, let me clarify the music streaming debacle at hand. It seems some people have gotten confused regarding what music is allowed to be played on stream and what isn't. Certain properties like Mother and Sonic are notoriously difficult to work with legally, and thus can't be played. The reason for most of these has to do with the fact that the songs for Mother and Sonic specifically have their music entangled in multiple producers and writers that are not in-house. For example, the theme of Green Hill Zone was not itself produced by SEGA. It was written by an outside artist called Dreams Come True. While SEGA might have the rights to use the track and remix it in their own games (even then not always, see Sonic Forces), they have certain limitations on its usage, which probably extends to public performance, which is what streaming kind of is.

Now, you may notice that one of the companies involved in Smash that has been notoriously easy to work with streaming-wise is Capcom. You don't hear Mega Man's or Ryu's victory themes being muted on stream. And this kind of makes sense; Capcom has been streaming their fighting games at tournaments for much longer than Nintendo has with Smash. It'd be odd if all Street Fighter or MvC games were muted for the entirety of their runtimes. So it's almost guaranteed that Capcom already has something worked out to make sure their soundtracks are safe for streaming.

Atlus, while not as prolific as Capcom, has also thrown their hat into the streaming ring before. Persona 4 Arena, Catherine, Ultimax, and BlazBlue Cross Tag Battle (a game featuring Persona characters within a mass crossover) have all streamed with audible music in the past. And for the most part, a lot of the songs featured in P4A are shared with the ones in Smash. This makes sense because almost (if not all) the Persona songs featured in both games are composed by Shōji Meguro, an in-house composer for Atlus. These two elements together should heavily suggest that Atlus's music is a-okay for streaming, and shouldn't be a factor in considering Mementos's legality.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Is there a larger tournament coming that actually features Mementos as a playable stage, though?

 

[Turk Injaydii]

Mementos would be a fun stage, but its effectively outdone by other stages we already have. I won't argue against the fact that it has unique qualities; I would even personally be happy if it's made legal. But if we ignore our love for Persona/excitement of a new stage/desire to see something different/etc... Mementos doesn't have anything of merit motivating TOs to give it a try.

We don't need an ever growing stage list for the sake of growing, just one that is composed of enough diverse stages for healthy competitive play. Mementos is another huge stage in a game that already has an uneven amount of big and small stages. If mementos were the same layout but the size of Castle Siege, I think it would be added without question. Imo, it's not worth scratching our heads deciding how to incorporate another large stage while keeping the stage list balanced (which would likely mean losing one of the currently legal large stages).

Hopefully the next DLC stages are smaller and help the stage list achieve a better balance. Yoshi's Story is the only widely accepted small stage, and that needs to change. PLEASE change it, Nintendo! Lol

 

[MarioManTAW]

So, it seems I have missed quite a bit of stage discussion. I didn't realize this thread had been revived.

In any case, I have recently been reconsidering my stage list. I had previously had a somewhat arbitrary hand-picked stage list, but I took the time to really consider what was important for a legal stage and came up with a list of criteria. From there, I organized the stages into categories and now I am organizing a poll to see which stages people want to have legal. My goal is to have a balanced list, yet one that is largely based on community input.

My criteria for stage legality:
1. No walls/ceilings
2. No walk-offs
3. No hazards
4. Exactly 1 base platform
5. No randomized layout

These criteria weed out nearly all the "weird" stages, while others might be voted out. This allows for a total of 28 stages:

Spoiler

Battlefield
Big Battlefield
Final Destination
Kongo Jungle
Dream Land
Brinstar
Yoshi's Story
Fountain of Dreams
Pokemon Stadium
WarioWare
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 2
Castle Siege
Smashville
Unova Pokemon League
Tomodachi Life
PictoChat 2
Mushroom Kingdom U
Skyloft
Kalos Pokemon League
Town & City
Duck Hunt
Wuhu Island
Wily Castle
Midgar
Umbra Clock Tower
Mementos

From there, I put the stages in groups based on their likely role on the stage list.

Spoiler

Starters:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium
Lylat Cruise
Smashville

Counterpicks (Small)
Kongo Jungle
Brinstar
WarioWare
Castle Siege

Counterpicks (Medium)
Tomodachi Life
Skyloft
Kalos Pokemon League
Town & City

Counterpicks (Large)
Big Battlefield
Mushroom Kingdom U
Duck Hunt
Wuhu Island
Mementos

Alternate stages (Stages that are similar to others and could likely be grouped)
--Battlefield--
Dream Land
Yoshi's Story (small)
Fountain of Dreams
Midgar (large)

--Final Destination--
PictoChat 2
Wily Castle (large)
Umbra Clock Tower

--Pokemon Stadium--
Pokemon Stadium 2
Unova Pokemon League

--Smashville--
Yoshi's Island (small)

The starter list is fixed, but I have nearly everything else up for community vote.
-For each potential counterpick, should it be legal or not? (Also included is a stipulation that the number of small and large stages must be equal.)
-For each potential alternate stage, should it be grouped, separate, or banned? (Some, if separate, count toward the total number of small/large stages above.)
--In the case of Pokemon Stadium, which version should be the default? (1 or 2)

Hopefully this list and the community vote should help me put together a stage list that is balanced and that will please the community.

 

[FartyParty]

So, it seems I have missed quite a bit of stage discussion. I didn't realize this thread had been revived.

In any case, I have recently been reconsidering my stage list. I had previously had a somewhat arbitrary hand-picked stage list, but I took the time to really consider what was important for a legal stage and came up with a list of criteria. From there, I organized the stages into categories and now I am organizing a poll to see which stages people want to have legal. My goal is to have a balanced list, yet one that is largely based on community input.

My criteria for stage legality:
1. No walls/ceilings
2. No walk-offs
3. No hazards
4. Exactly 1 base platform
5. No randomized layout

These criteria weed out nearly all the "weird" stages, while others might be voted out. This allows for a total of 28 stages:

Spoiler

Battlefield
Big Battlefield
Final Destination
Kongo Jungle
Dream Land
Brinstar
Yoshi's Story
Fountain of Dreams
Pokemon Stadium
WarioWare
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 2
Castle Siege
Smashville
Unova Pokemon League
Tomodachi Life
PictoChat 2
Mushroom Kingdom U
Skyloft
Kalos Pokemon League
Town & City
Duck Hunt
Wuhu Island
Wily Castle
Midgar
Umbra Clock Tower
Mementos

From there, I put the stages in groups based on their likely role on the stage list.

Spoiler

Starters:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium
Lylat Cruise
Smashville

Counterpicks (Small)
Kongo Jungle
Brinstar
WarioWare
Castle Siege

Counterpicks (Medium)
Tomodachi Life
Skyloft
Kalos Pokemon League
Town & City

Counterpicks (Large)
Big Battlefield
Mushroom Kingdom U
Duck Hunt
Wuhu Island
Mementos

Alternate stages (Stages that are similar to others and could likely be grouped)
--Battlefield--
Dream Land
Yoshi's Story (small)
Fountain of Dreams
Midgar (large)

--Final Destination--
PictoChat 2
Wily Castle (large)
Umbra Clock Tower

--Pokemon Stadium--
Pokemon Stadium 2
Unova Pokemon League

--Smashville--
Yoshi's Island (small)

The starter list is fixed, but I have nearly everything else up for community vote.
-For each potential counterpick, should it be legal or not? (Also included is a stipulation that the number of small and large stages must be equal.)
-For each potential alternate stage, should it be grouped, separate, or banned? (Some, if separate, count toward the total number of small/large stages above.)
--In the case of Pokemon Stadium, which version should be the default? (1 or 2)

Hopefully this list and the community vote should help me put together a stage list that is balanced and that will please the community.

Not to nitpick, but isn't having "No Hazards" as a criteria a little pointless when the game offers the option to turn hazards off? Like I'm pretty sure everyone just assumes hazards off by default.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Not to nitpick, but isn't having "No Hazards" as a criteria a little pointless when the game offers the option to turn hazards off? Like I'm pretty sure everyone just assumes hazards off by default.

Yes, the assumption is that hazards are turned off, but some stage hazards are not disabled by this toggle. The main stage that makes this necessary was Pirate Ship, on which the bottom of the boat can spike even with hazards off, although there are others that this would apply as well (like The Great Cave Offensive). Thus even with hazards disabled in the rules, some stages still need to be banned for hazards.

 

[IsmaR]

Is there a larger tournament coming that actually features Mementos as a playable stage, though?

KSB2019 in Japan had Mementos this past weekend.

It also featured Hazards-On Smashville, complete with a separate ruleset just for it. Players did have to reset a match in top 3 because they forgot, unfortunately.

 

[Sean²]

I hate to go back into complaining about basic game QOL again, but this is exactly why we need a hazards off toggle on the stage select screen over separating it in rulesets. Still wonder if they even thought of it an option or if the game was coded to 'not work that way' after you reach the stage select screen.

If it ever does happen (or the off chance mixed hazards actually becomes the norm), I'd be excited to delve in deep with this thread again.

 

[Terotrous]

A perfectly good solution would just be to make the hazards off version of Smashville the same as hazards on, I don't think anyone would bemoan the loss of the hazards off version since it's very similar to Yoshi's Island Brawl anyway.

Sakurai Plz

 

[Munomario777]

I don't think anyone would bemoan the loss of the hazards off version

(i would)

 

[ATH_]

(i would)

Do you believe the Hazards Off version is better than the Hazards On version? If so, that's an opinion I haven't seen expressed yet, honestly.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Do you believe the Hazards Off version is better than the Hazards On version? If so, that's an opinion I haven't seen expressed yet, honestly.

Quite a few people think the Hazards Off version is better, actually, I do as well.

 

[ATH_]

Quite a few people think the Hazards Off version is better, actually, I do as well.

That's news to me, considering so many people are trying out lists where Smashville is the only stage with Hazards On. It's a much more dynamic stage when compares to the other stages. Personally, if we ever got a switch, I wouldn't be against using both versions as separate stages. Though I think many will probably disagree.

Who are these "quite a few people" exactly? Any top players who share that opinion? From what I know, players like Mew2King, Dabuz, Salem, Leffen, Nairo, and ZeRo have all stated at some point or another that they'd prefer Hazards On Smashville (not necessarily that we should run mixed lists though), but not all of those players might be considered "top players" but rather "popular players with opinions". Either way, all of them are experienced individuals. Though, some of those opinions might be outdated.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Any top players who share that opinion?

Pretty sure I've seen some top players complain about hazards on Smashville is janky and stating that they prefer hazards off, let me see if I can find any tweets.

Hazards on Smashville is a disease that has plagued us for far too long. Come December 7th do the right thing and remove this monstrosity from your life and our community.

— Larry Lurr (@LarryLurr) November 15, 2018

not sure why people look back at moving platform smashville with rose coloured glasses. Hazards off made the stage way better and even with a toggle it would be a bad choice.

— HB | Captain L (@captainlsheikah) February 18, 2019

Found one, there's probably more but finding them can be tricky.

Who are these "quite a few people" exactly?

Lots of people, some examples:

Hazards off Smashville is a better stage than Hazards on Smashville and that's the tea

— Andrew Nestico (@PracticalTAS) February 26, 2019

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I've also seen quite a few people say it in Discord too.

 

[Terotrous]

Pretty sure I've seen some top players complain about hazards on Smashville is janky

If we've reached the point where a totally flat stage with a single slowly moving platform is "jank" then we seriously need to recalibrate our jankdar because it's giving out false positives.

Anyway, Smashville Hazards On is obviously a much better stage because of its dynamic nature. When the platform is in the middle, certain characters have an advantage. When the platform is near the sides, other characters have an advantage. The fact that it moves between the various states prevents any character from gaining prolonged advantage, which is what makes it arguably the most well-balanced map in the series.

 

[ATH_]

Pretty sure I've seen some top players complain about hazards on Smashville is janky and stating that they prefer hazards off, let me see if I can find any tweets.

Hazards on Smashville is a disease that has plagued us for far too long. Come December 7th do the right thing and remove this monstrosity from your life and our community.

— Larry Lurr (@LarryLurr) November 15, 2018

not sure why people look back at moving platform smashville with rose coloured glasses. Hazards off made the stage way better and even with a toggle it would be a bad choice.

— HB | Captain L (@captainlsheikah) February 18, 2019

Found one, there's probably more but finding them can be tricky.

Lots of people, some examples:

Hazards off Smashville is a better stage than Hazards on Smashville and that's the tea

— Andrew Nestico (@PracticalTAS) February 26, 2019

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I've also seen quite a few people say it in Discord too.

Good stuff, I haven't seen this personally but you're right that there definitely is a disagreement there. Honestly, I don't know what the right answer is here, but I don't think Smashville with Hazards is by any means "jank" or bad.

If we've reached the point where a totally flat stage with a single slowly moving platform is "jank" then we seriously need to recalibrate our jankdar because it's giving out false positives.

Anyway, Smashville Hazards On is obviously a much better stage because of its dynamic nature. When the platform is in the middle, certain characters have an advantage. When the platform is near the sides, other characters have an advantage. The fact that it moves between the various states prevents any character from gaining prolonged advantage, which is what makes it arguably the most well-balanced map in the series.

Yeah, this is generally why it was played so much in Brawl/Smash 4. That, and Brawl's stages generally were uh... lacking.

Once again we are at an impasse between two completely opposite opinions. This is just YI:B all over again, honestly.

 

[Munomario777]

I wouldn't mind having H+ SV of course, but it's not like H- SV isn't also a very nice stage

if you held a gun to my head and told me to pick one, I'd pick H- tbhtbh, it's a very nice neutral stage and it's really grown on me

 

[ATH_]

I wouldn't mind having H+ SV of course, but it's not like H- SV isn't also a very nice stage

if you held a gun to my head and told me to pick one, I'd pick H- tbhtbh, it's a very nice neutral stage and it's really grown on me

I love the syntax here, using H+ and H- to refer to each version. Mind if I steal that? I'll pay royalties I swear!

I do like the stage without hazards, I personally think the dynamic version is better for competitive play because it calls for more awareness and overall feels more skill intensive. That isn't to say those things are objectively positive, but I personally view it as such. My view is more... if we have the option to choose, and it isn't a nuisance for TOs and players to implement, then I feel like both are equally viable. One is more generic while the other is more skill intensive.

 

[Munomario777]

H+ is more involved, but there’s also more room for camping (as we saw a lot in smash 4 with cloud) or combos that wouldn’t normally work (due to the moving plat)

like, it’s a fine stage obviously, but the two fill entirely different roles (H+ as a counterpick, H- as a neutral stage), and I think a neutral stage is more crucial to have than a CP

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Agreed with the notion that Smashville is a fine stage, albeit one that I'm personally sick of seeing so often for 3 games in a row, regardless of H+ or H- (seconding the "fantastic syntax" sentiment BTW) and that if we're at a point where people are seriously calling H+ Smashville "jank" then the word has lost all meaning. Like, yes, the platform can enable camping, extend combos, and lead to early cheese kills, but it's literally a single platform that moves slowly and smoothly back and forth across the stage. That's, like, the opposite of jank.

At this point I think jank has simply become a catch-all buzzword for "stage feature I don't like."

 

[Terotrous]

like, it’s a fine stage obviously, but the two fill entirely different roles (H+ as a counterpick, H- as a neutral stage), and I think a neutral stage is more crucial to have than a CP

I have the opposite opinion, where I think the Hazards Off version is more of a counterpick due to more clearly favouring certain characters. It was a common opinion in the Smash 4 days that the Hazards On version of the stage was the most balanced stage in the history of Smash (this is where the "game 1 is always smashville / smashville is the only stage" meme came from), which is also probably why people want to bring it back.

I feel like if I was going to design a version of the hazards off stage to be its own stage, I would make the platform smaller, maybe closer to the size of a battlefield platform (I feel this gives less pronounced advantage compared to its current size), though I still think the version where it moves is the best.

 

[IsmaR]

I have no dog in the race personally as I think both H+/- versions have their own quirks (in an ideal world, I'd like being able to choose between both as a preference thing), but I do see a lot of top player parroting/dogpile mentality as far as "why should I care/have to learn to play on a single new stage?"

If you've gotten used to only hazards off in 99% of rulesets, typically most feel you have very little reason to remember hazards on variants even exist.

Ironically I think if we had more H+ prolific events ala KSB (I'd assume Nintendo/Smash team watches things close in proximity to them)/had more people being extremely vocal about it, we would get a toggle in a future update without question unless it's an actual design philosophy decision to keep everything inconvenient.

 

[ATH_]

I absolutely agree with the notion that they're both very different from one another. Personally, if it were my choice, I'd have the two stages be separate entities on a list. H+ Smashville would provide us an alternative 5th starter to Lylat, which a lot of players (most notably Leffen) have been crying out for for a very long time. I don't know if that would be my conclusive decision, but just from the concept I think it sounds like a fairly good idea if we had the option to do it.

Before someone says "You can't have the same stage be a starter twice!" please consider how drastically different the two versions are? Really, they might as well be two different stages.

On a similar topic, H+ Town & City is really so much better than H- in my opinion. The main thing being that it goes from a "stage that is FD/Kalos 66% of the time" to a completely unique stage that's only in its open layout 33% of the time. While I do wish the inverted-triangle layout was static, I still think the trade-off would be worth it. In my opinion, it would solve a lot of issues players have with the stagelists from recent majors. The only other real problem with it is the platforms having potential to kill you from grabs (especially tethers), command grabs, and burying effects. Which, if someone thinks that H- is much better due to fixing that issue, I can see where that's coming from for sure.

Maybe it's not 'so much better' as it is just more unique to other stages.

 

[Terotrous]

If we're talking about stages that are better in Hazards On, IMO this is the list.

Arena Ferox - Probably the most blatant example. H- version is locked to the worst transformation all the time and is super degenerate because of it. H+ version is debatably legal, it was legal on 3DS.
Fountain of Dreams - Just becomes a prettier battlefield with its moving platforms removed.
Yoshi's Island Melee - Randall is the heart and soul of this stage. This is a good example of a stage with just the right amount of jank.
Smashville - already discussed
Town and City - already discussed
Rainbow Cruise - H- version has a permanent wall. H+ version was legal in Melee.
Princess Peach's Castle 64 - The stage just doesn't really work without the bottom platform moving.
Frigate Orpheon - The flip is the best part of this stage and I will fight anyone who says otherwise.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Lots of stages are better for friendlies with hazards on, but most of these are not tournament viable anyway. The only stages that would be legal out of those you listed are Town and City and Smashville, and they're already legal with hazards off.

Fountain of Dreams - Just becomes a prettier battlefield with its moving platforms removed.

With frame drops, so unless that's fixed it's banned from tournaments.

Yoshi's Island Melee - Randall is the heart and soul of this stage. This is a good example of a stage with just the right amount of jank.

The Shy Guys bring food, so it's definitely worse.

Rainbow Cruise - H- version has a permanent wall. H+ version was legal in Melee.

It was banned in Melee for being bad.

 

[Sean²]

Honestly don't see how Nintendo thinks a pop-able balloon and a telegraphed moving platform are more of a hazard than shyguys dropping healing items.

edit: Also to add to the smashville discussion I guess, landing from a juggle situation can be pretty difficult on the hazards off version. The bigger central platform creates a little cavern to hide under. I kind of feel the same about Yoshi's Brawl. I know this is a reason people ban BF a lot, but characters good at juggling, like Ivysaur and the Marth clones can have similar fun on this stage. Especially if their juggling move is also a kill move. It forces you to either drift out to the ledge and put yourself into an edgeguard situation, or figure out a way to juke out their juggle options with an airdodge in some direction. Hazards on Smashville gave you a bit of an 'out' of that situation by being able to drift with or against the moving platform.

 

[ATH_]

If we're talking about stages that are better in Hazards On, IMO this is the list.

Arena Ferox - Probably the most blatant example. H- version is locked to the worst transformation all the time and is super degenerate because of it. H+ version is debatably legal, it was legal on 3DS.
Fountain of Dreams - Just becomes a prettier battlefield with its moving platforms removed.
Yoshi's Island Melee - Randall is the heart and soul of this stage. This is a good example of a stage with just the right amount of jank.
Smashville - already discussed
Town and City - already discussed
Rainbow Cruise - H- version has a permanent wall. H+ version was legal in Melee.
Princess Peach's Castle 64 - The stage just doesn't really work without the bottom platform moving.
Frigate Orpheon - The flip is the best part of this stage and I will fight anyone who says otherwise.

Arena Ferox is not locked to "the worst transformation", it changes every time you pick it between the 4 layouts. Sadly only one layout is truly unique or viable, maybe arguably 2 (the quad-plat layout with the wall) but it would be genuinely "jank" if we had the H+ version legal.

I thought I heard FoD got fixed, but then again people say that every patch. Keeping in mind, if it lags in doubles but doesn't lag in singles then it should be fine. As long as two Ice Climbers players can go to FoD and have it be lagless, that's all that matters.

Randall's great, the shy guys are awful.

H+ Rainbow Cruise has never and will never be a competitively viable stage. Was it legal once? Yes. Was it competitively viable then? Absolutely not.

Peach's Castle 64 has the bumper and two side walls. Even without those, the layout is really uh... interesting. It's not great.

I see you don't mention H+ Pokemon Stadium 1 here? Why not? That stage is actually legal in Melee and a fan-favorite. Sure, two transformations are kinda garbage, but the others are great and it changes consistently.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Keeping in mind, if it lags in doubles but doesn't lag in singles then it should be fine. As long as two Ice Climbers players can go to FoD and have it be lagless, that's all that matters.

From what I've heard, certain interactions still cause frame drops, such as Wario's bike. Not that it really matters since mixed hazards are bad, at least with the current system.

I see you don't mention H+ Pokemon Stadium 1 here? Why not? That stage is actually legal in Melee and a fan-favorite. Sure, two transformations are kinda garbage, but the others are great and it changes consistently.

The windmill creates a cave of life in Ultimate, since you can tech it (and you couldn't in Melee), so Pokémon Stadium hazards on is bad. It's also a fairly campy stage, sometimes even in Melee.

Edit: I tested this and this appears to not actually be the case, huh. I guess they changed it from Brawl? Still, the stage has plenty of issues aside from that.

 

[Terotrous]

With frame drops, so unless that's fixed it's banned from tournaments.

It still framedrops in H-, so it's not like that makes the H+ version better.

The Shy Guys bring food, so it's definitely worse.

I'm sure at some point they'll fix this (they probably won't).

It was banned in Melee for being bad.

I'll admit, I don't follow Melee that closely, but I know it was legal at some point, I've seen quite a number of matches played on it.

edit: Also to add to the smashville discussion I guess, landing from a juggle situation can be pretty difficult on the hazards off version. The bigger central platform creates a little cavern to hide under. I kind of feel the same about Yoshi's Brawl. I know this is a reason people ban BF a lot, but characters good at juggling, like Ivysaur and the Marth clones can have similar fun on this stage.

This is also what I think about the hazards off version, IMO it's somewhat bad for characters who struggle to land, or characters with projectiles that travel vertically (ie, Yoshi's Eggs, Pika's aerial Thunder Jolt, Ness's Aerial PK fire, etc). As you mentioned, this is also an issue with YI Brawl and BF as well, and it also applies to Lylat Cruise, which is why I kind of don't like having them all in the same list, that's forcing such characters to use a lot of bans to get a stage where they don't have to land on a platform a lot of the time. H+ Smashville does not suffer from this because due to the platform's movement you can usually either stay in the air longer or drift to the side to avoid having to land on it.

Arena Ferox is not locked to "the worst transformation", it changes every time you pick it between the 4 layouts. Sadly only one layout is truly unique or viable, maybe arguably 2 (the quad-plat layout with the wall) but it would be genuinely "jank" if we had the H+ version legal.

Are you sure about this? All early testing feedback I saw said it was always the transformation with the statues. Even if it is random that's still bad.

I see you don't mention H+ Pokemon Stadium 1 here? Why not? That stage is actually legal in Melee and a fan-favorite. Sure, two transformations are kinda garbage, but the others are great and it changes consistently.

IMO, H+ PS1 is still a viable stage, but with several of the transformations being fairly disruptive it's a pretty easy case to make that H- is superior.

 

[ATH_]

Are you sure about this? All early testing feedback I saw said it was always the transformation with the statues. Even if it is random that's still bad.


IMO, H+ PS1 is still a viable stage, but with several of the transformations being fairly disruptive it's a pretty easy case to make that H- is superior.

Yet Rainbow Cruise is better H+ than its H- counterpart according to your post? What?

Ferox is always random. If it was always the statue layout, it'd be legal instantly. It doesn't transform though in H-.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Are you sure about this? All early testing feedback I saw said it was always the transformation with the statues. Even if it is random that's still bad.

That was an incorrect assumption we made at the time based on footage of a pre-release tournament where the stage showed up exactly once. Ferox (and Gamer, and Mario Maker, and Tortimer Island) have random layouts each time you fire it up, even with H-.

On a COMPLETELY different (and if I'm being honest, somewhat off-topic) subject, I'd like to collect opinions on the use of ice in a stage. Obviously no current legal stage has ice, and no existing stage with ice is legal, but ice is a thing that exists in the game and I like to challenge myself to make custom stages that stretch the limits of viability without actually crossing the line into "wtf no" territory. So, as a thought experiment, could a stage have ice and still be legal? If so, how? If not, then what would be the "least bad" situation for a stage with ice?