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I'm saying this as a player: You do not want Mementos to be legal. Projectile zoning is strong enough on PS2 and Kalos which are smaller and worse for keep away. Characters like the Links will be stupidly good on that stage. It's a nightmare for immobile heavyweights.
I'm okay with that, for now. Eventually Yoshi's Story and Kalos will have to go, probably, (maybe Yoshi's Island as well), but for now this is acceptable.
I'm okay with that, for now. Eventually Yoshi's Story and Kalos will have to go, probably, (maybe Yoshi's Island as well), but for now this is acceptable.
Personally find that the stage list having YIB and YS is kinda dumb. I would rather have seen more interesting counterpicks that are debatable as a legal stage.
I will always be someone that argues for MKU or Skyloft over Yoshis Story as a counterpick if we are angling for a larger triplat. WarioWare and Castle Siege are little but I feel we need smaller stages for a more balanced stagelist. Kalos, FD, Town, PS2. They all are pretty big and I feel we should have at least one truly small starter or counterpick. People might say they do not like dying 20% earlier but at the same time you could just argue its just as dumb to projectile camp on PS2. People getting tilted over slants need to just adapt. Even if we complain about slants the ones on Yoshi's edges are more on an issue imo.
Also just gonna say Mementos is a super good stage for comp from my limited testing, but I would like to see further testing obviously. It is a big stage and we already have a few but I feel it is a good stage to look at.
Here is my ideal stage list
Starter
Battlefield (forms are legal and gentleman able)
FD (Omegas are legal and gentlemanable as well, note that music issues and backgrounds can be reason to reject but like FD has a pretty rough background sometimes, its not 4s but its still annoying a bit)
Smashville
PS2
Lylat
Yoshi's Story is actually smaller than Battlefield, which is the main argument for including it. As for WarioWare, it's pretty bad:
There was a problem fetching the tweet
Skyloft has some major issues, such as messing up many character's recoveries, making some recoveries too strong, and allowing for sharking. Castle Siege has issues as well and is unlikely to return.
That argument is kinda eh.
I mean, Hbox died at 49% at Mango's counterpick (Yoshi's Story) at the top in Melee Winner Finals against Mang0 today.
I don't really see why that's a problem in Ultimate but not in Melee. That's the point of a counterpick. Dying early to something from Incineroar is just...adapt to his playstyle. Adaption should be always done before whining about something and banning it.
You see, there's a lot of reasons the stage selection has been so stingy. A few of the big ones being:
This is the first official Smash game where we have so many options that we don't have to put in what i call "Pity Stages", that is, stages for the sake of having a larger list. In Melee, they have 3 triangle triplats as starters because well... there's no other options. We don't have that problem in this game.
We have a new problem of having to determine what a balanced and good stagelist actually even is. This is due to there being so much more control in this game. We have so many options for different layout-types and sizes and blast zones that we have to have a solid foundation to make a good stagelist.
A lot of viable stages in this game are huge. This brings a big problem where TOs try to balance it with smaller stages, but because there's less small stages, they're much more polarized.
Stage discussion is much more widespread now, it's a popular topic. People are polarized about every stage, admittedly or not. They'll say being pineappled is bad on one stage, but still love PS2, Smashville, and Town & City. They'll say walled stages are great because they help and hurt certain recoveries, bringing a new aspect to the game, but then they'll say Unova is bad because some recoveries are hurt if you willingly go under the curve of the stage. This leads to the last point.
TOs are being demanded for consistency above everything. There has to be a meaning to the stagelist. There's a rhyme, a reason, and a rationale.
Lastly, you can't just put all the viable stages onto one big list. Not only will this slow down tournament play, but it'd be far too unbalanced. Think about a list with Pictochat 2, Final Destination, Wily's Castle, Kalos Pokemon League, AND Town & City all legal. They're all viable stages, but having all of them together brings a huge imbalance across matches. So, it's best to pick the 2 or 3 you want of each layout and go from there.
It's not about "how many stages should be legal", it's about so much more. The reason we go into the details, the data, and the coordinates of ledges, platforms, and blast zones, is all because we're trying to achieve a balanced stagelist that remains fun for the players.
it was probably for the best that I couldn't respond to this post earlier, probably saved me some embarrassment cus thinking on this I can't really refute anything you've pointed out here. Instead, I would like to mabey pose a question to ya guys that may clear up why I feel a real change in the stage list and selection ruleset needs to happen.
Hypothetically what will the community do if all of the remaining four DLC packs all give use legal worthy stages?
now I know this is unlikely but, as it stands our current system would only allow us to either 1. add a stage to Neutral and Counter Pick then add a ban or 2. ban the stages seen as unfair to maintain a balanced stage list. Option 1 has the opportunity to cause massive headaches for TO while increasing the margin of error for players, while option 2 is impossible as (ATH_ mentioned above) the stage discussion is super polarizing and I don't see a definitive list being made within our pick ban system as it stands.
So that the problem our traditional pick ban system is not logistically fit to handle a larger stage list, we've avoided this problem so far by banning or marginalizing certain polarizing stages however there is a real possibility of tension growing if the remaining DLC stages turn out to be viable as memento has.
Quite frankly I'm concerned of the Smash communities ability to handle this particular issue if history is anything to go by. That being said I've talked a lot about problems and offered no real solutions, so I'd like to attempt to suggest a possible new method for stage selection that would be fair to players, fast and easy for TOs while also allowing for any sized stage list.
To preface, this isn't all my original idea a big portion of it was gestated in the Discussion of Stage Legality in Smash Bros. Ultimatethread that a bunch of us here participated in. This theoretical ruleset stage list consists of every conceivable legal stage discussed here, sans redundancies such as FD and Wily castle which are considered interchangeable.
The methodology around my idea is that instead of focusing on manipulating & limiting players choice of stages in search of an impossibly universally fair stage list, I instead believe it would be more productive to modify the player's method of selecting stages so that they have more opportunities to select the stage that they personally deem as fair. essentially...
GAME 1
After RPS to determine ban order, players take turn banning from a list of 5 neutral stages until one is left to be used for the first game.
[esentailly exactly what we have now for game 1, no reason to change anything here, especially when the "neutral" stage list can afford to be picky and small as a result. the important part is with everything that happens after game one]
GAME 2 & Onward
The losing player suggests a grouping of 4 stages, from said grouping the winning player picks one of the aforementioned stages where the next game is played on.
[now this all sounds simple but it solves several problems. it's fast with only 2 interactions needing to take place, gives the losing player meaningful counter picking opportunities through grouping while allowing the winner a minute measure of control essentially allowing them to "pick their poison". this is done all while facilitating a large stage list due to again the groupings, which should be increased or decreased in order to eliminate the possibility of unbalancing the stage selection process]
A link Player And a Fox player are playing a first to 2 match
They RPS for the first ban, then pick and ban natural stages landing on Smashville for game 1
Game 1 is played and the Link loses
The Link suggest a grouping of Memento, PS2, FD and Kalos as their counter pick
After a moment to consider their options, the Fox agrees to PS2 for game 2
Game 2 is played on PS2 & the Fox loses
The Fox suggest a grouping of Battlefield, Wario Ware, Castle Siege and Yoshi’s Island (Brawl) for game 3
After a moment to consider their options, the Link agrees to Battlefield for game 3
Game 3 is played and the Link loses, the Fox wins the match
and that's my suggestion, by no means a sure researched thing, just my thoughts that I would like to discuss as a possible avenue to go down. I would really like to hear what you guys would consider the consequences of adopting a simple rule change like this.
I can make the same sort of statement for camping on PS2. Having a small stage leads to early kills but that is fine. Look at melee Yoshis.
Also the complaint is pretty exaggerated since it’s the Pichu clip of dying at 19 at the ledge to the strongest back throw in the game. First off it you let incineroar back throw you at the ledge you can’t complain that’s literally playing poorly. Secondly having a stage that benefits these characters like Incin as a CP is a good idea. On average people die around ~23% earlier (damage not time) on WarioWare due to size, which is fine for a counterpick.
What TOs think matter a whole lot more than what people on Twitter think when it comes to stage legality. Mementos is getting tested at locals, but I don't think it's going to survive long enough to be tested at majors, and if it does it'll probably just be one major.
What TOs think matter a whole lot more than what people on Twitter think when it comes to stage legality. Mementos is getting tested at locals, but I don't think it's going to survive long enough to be tested at majors, and if it does it'll probably just be one major.
I believe it must be a balance between players and the TO's.
Just look how lots of High/Top players find the EVO Stagelist horrible because of Yoshi Brawl and some annoyed because it went Full DSR instead of Semi-DST.
Mementos will be tested at local, but so far, I've never seen a single really bad argument as of why it should be banned.
It's Charizard grab and Roy getting grabbed, not Pichu. You didn't watch the clip I linked, did you?
What TOs think matter a whole lot more than what people on Twitter think when it comes to stage legality. Mementos is getting tested at locals, but I don't think it's going to survive long enough to be tested at majors, and if it does it'll probably just be one major.
A clip with mediocre DI, and point still stands. If you go for something stupid and get him by a stupid strong back air you deserve to get punished. Throw combo ain’t even guaranteed so that’s just bad match up knowledge and poor play.
I agree with Nekoo
, primarily that I have not yet seen a convincing arguement that I can not just apply to PS2. It looks like a solid counterpick right now that deserves testing. It is a better choice than Yoshis island.
A clip with mediocre DI, and point still stands. If you go for something stupid and get him by a stupid strong back air you deserve to get punished. Throw combo ain’t even guaranteed so that’s just bad match up knowledge and poor play.
I agree with Nekoo
, primarily that I have not yet seen a convincing arguement that I can not just apply to PS2. It looks like a solid counterpick right now that deserves testing. It is a better choice than Yoshis.
I just want to cut in and suggest that specifying which Yoshi's you're talking about is probably a good idea. I assume you mean Yoshi's Island (Brawl), but it could also mean Yoshi's Story.
On a different subject, I've been kicking around an idea relating to custom stages. NOT that they should be legal (it would be fun as hell IMO but simply not likely to happen ever) but more as a...learning tool? Experimentation tool? Science tool? Basically using the stage builder to whip up various stage layouts and use them as examples of how far you can push stage geometry and still have it be considered a viable stage. If one was feeling particularly saucy, there's even room to experiment with wind, warp zones, barrels, and hazardous surfaces. (Like, consider if the underside of a stage was lava.) I realize this probably isn't strictly within the purview of this thread, but it didn't seem worth an entirely new thread either.
I'm okay with that, for now. Eventually Yoshi's Story and Kalos will have to go, probably, (maybe Yoshi's Island as well), but for now this is acceptable.
Still curious as to why they "have to go". Beyond the fact that they share similar onstage platform layouts to other stages (or lack thereof in Kalos/FD terms), what makes them unreasonable to remain? Story has been proven time and time again to only be similar in platform layout - interactions on that stage are vastly different. Ledge traps involving aerials do not work the same as they do on BF due to the platforms being more of an "out". The things that have been mentioned time and time again, stage size, blastzones, main platform layout, etc. all make it a different experience from BF. It's almost an ideal CP if you want the triplat layout but feel like you'll get ledge trapped on BF (i.e. characters with poor getup options, DK for example)
Yoshi's Brawl can go if need be, that stage isn't that great without hazards. I used to be for it, but don't care much for it now. I'd only be for it remaining if the '5 starter, 5 CP, 3 stage ban' movement still remains. I'm very meh on Kalos or FD, I'd be fine with one of them disappearing. I'm sure either one being fully banned will bring polarizing opinions from all over the place.
"Have to go" might be a bit of an exaggeration. Anyway, I acknowledge that there are differences between Yoshi's Story and Battlefield, but I don't think the differences are significant enough for YS to warrant being it's own stage: It's similar to the Smash 4 situation with Battlefield and Dream Land, and DL ended up being grouped with BF. Prominent TOs have made it clear that grouping is out of the question so our choices are either banning Yoshi's Story for being too similar to Battlefield or keeping both. I think keeping both will lead to issues of redundancy (characters who dislike BF having to ban YS) so banning both seems better.
As for Kalos, Frostbite data indicates that it's strongly connected to Final Destination, so it seems likely that we'll eventually have to ban it as well or else we'll end up in a situation where people will just pick Kalos whenever FD is banned (or FD if Kalos is banned).
Ok, I’m just wondering, why can’t any of these stages work as counterpicks:
- Mario Maker (Seems to only have 1 layouf that appears when hazardless)
- Gamer (Ditto for the above)
- Kongo Jungle 64 (Definite counterpick, but it’s not too terribly awful)
- Umbra Clock Tower (Hazardless I’m pretty sure it’s just FD with an extra platform)
Also I’m still mad about Hazardless Duck Hunt. They took out the Duck and Dog which wasn’t a problem but not the trees which were
For umbra I'm pretty sure there are copyright issues and there is more than one layout for Gamer and most of the layouts aren't legal because of cellings
Main
Secondaries
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the only franchises with legal issues regarding their music were Mother, Sonic, and maybe Final Fantasy. (And I'm not even sure about Sonic TBH.)
If the stage builder had a few more options in it (setting spawn points mainly) i'd probably be advocating for only stage builder stages at this point. If there is something outright egregious about Memento, then fine, but I just don't see it. The size is fine. The slope in the middle is as slight if not less so than those on Yoshi's Story, so if that's the main reason then Yoshi's needs to go as well.
I can understand the music issue, but there's also a very simple option for that as well... set music volume to 0.
"Have to go" might be a bit of an exaggeration. Anyway, I acknowledge that there are differences between Yoshi's Story and Battlefield, but I don't think the differences are significant enough for YS to warrant being it's own stage: It's similar to the Smash 4 situation with Battlefield and Dream Land, and DL ended up being grouped with BF. Prominent TOs have made it clear that grouping is out of the question so our choices are either banning Yoshi's Story for being too similar to Battlefield or keeping both. I think keeping both will lead to issues of redundancy (characters who dislike BF having to ban YS) so banning both seems better.
As for Kalos, Frostbite data indicates that it's strongly connected to Final Destination, so it seems likely that we'll eventually have to ban it as well or else we'll end up in a situation where people will just pick Kalos whenever FD is banned (or FD if Kalos is banned).
I think the usual stage list is fine as is and adding or subtracting stages might imbalance it.
I don't think any of the usual stages are redundant. Dreamland is much closer to BF than YStory is. Story is a medium stage with a wide open area in the middle whereas BF is a small compact stage. I would much rather fight Fox or Chrom on YS than BF, speaking as a player.
TnC is closer to FD than Kalos but they all have enough differences. I'd rather fight Wario on FD than Kalos for example because Wario's mobility allows him to escape to the platforms on either side. The platforms also stop some downward attacks from jumps like Hard Knuckle so I'd take Mega Man to Kalos over FD. Kalos' sides allow wall clinging stalling so I would take Lucario to TnC over Kalos. TnC is weird because the platforms come and go but it's generally a big space to work in. VS Toon Link TnC is horrible but FD is great because the long range nature of his camping. I could go on but you get the idea.
Layout-wise I think Mementos is fine but we really don't need another really big stage. I'd be fine with replacing another big stage with it, but my preference would still be for Castle Siege.
How about replacing PS2 or Kalos with Mementos? I like seeing stages from different franchises with different music and I'd much rather have Pokemon + Persona stage than 2 big Pokemon stages. Furthermore Mementos has a quite unique layout, it would be a joy to watch tournament matches on this stage.
On custom stages: I don't think they will be legal because there are some mechanics differences. For example, Pokemon Trainer cannot fast-switch due to lack of the Trainer... Obviously as my main, that's a huge blow. At the moment I'm not sure how I feel about Mementos. I like the slopes and think we should have more slopes but it is another big stage (which I feel like we have enough of). Gotta test further
People love to say "we have enough Big stages" over and over but there's so many assumptions going into that statement?
What list are you referring to? Your own? Then sure, you can say that, but that doesn't really help discussion. Other's lists? Which ones?
There isn't a standard list. The only stage larger than average is PS2, if you don't count T&C being 4 units bigger than average. While personally I'd say that FD could also count as large due to its lack of platforms (it's more about how "large" the open space is), not everyone will agree with that.
With Small stages, we have Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Yoshi's Story, and arguably Lylat in terms of blast zones. In a list where PS2/SV/Lylat are starters, I think we can afford having Mementos as a counterpick. The blast zones on Mementos are the largest we've seen in a potentially legal stage (260 on the sides), but this doesn't instantly make the stage good for camping or stalling. The slope in the center combats camping from the right ledge, while the left side of the stage promotes combos and juggling.
I really love the dynamic of the stage, where specific positioning is more important than on any other stage I can think of.
We can judge a stage individually all we want, but hopefully people don't start judging lists based on whether or not they run Mementos. Every list can have different reasoning behind the selection of stages. Mementos brings a new dynamic that is completely unique from any other viable stage. Please refrain from bandwagoning.
While Kalos is arguable due to its very slightly larger side zones, I feel like Town & City doesn't fit the bill for "large" stage at all. Considering that despite the 4 extra units on the terrain, the side blast zones are actually a 230 box, which is fit for a smaller stage. I'd say that balances it out to be an average size. How would Town be considered large while Lylat isn't? Is it due to the open space and how frequent it is? Well then why is FD an average stage, despite it having more open space with larger side blast zones?
Personally, I count neither. Yes, the terrain's size matters, but I think Mementos is perfectly fine in terms of size. It's platforms are much more meaningful as opposed to MKU, and honestly anything larger than it is likely not viable.
Still not saying Mementos shouldn't be legal yet, but I'm still not a fan of how the fighting centralizes on the right side of the stage. It almost feels like a game of half court basketball. I think Siege could get away with this more simply due to the fact that it gave you less space to work with. The slope on Mementos feels like it may as well be a wall since no one goes up there.
Sure, but the discussion of stage size isn't arbitrary like that. It's a complicated tug of war between terrain size, blast zone size, and what playstyles/characters are promoted by what.
The same way, I could say "If you're only considering the blast zones, then X stages are small and X stages are large" but we all know that it's much more than just blast zones. You could count the platforms if you really wanted, but the logistics of why you'd count that are shaky at best.
If I'm Young Link, and I decide to run to the opposite end of Kalos of my opponent, I could jump onto the platform to get more horizontal distance, but I'm losing the ability to get a clear shot of my opponent. It also uses extra time that could simply be used to turn around and throw projectiles. In short, it's no coincidence that characters/players who prefer to camp over engage have a huge preference for larger stages, stages without platforms (some if not all of the time), and stages that have open space in the center. They don't usually care about platforms unless they let their opponent get in on them.
I think ultimately Mementos will not end up legal because it's too good for keep away but if people want to try it and give YL his best stage I'm fine with that. My only issue is the red version doesn't have enough contrast between the dark red and black. It's hard to see characters like Joker and G&W on there and would be even worse for teams. The light blue and yellow versions are fine.
Seems Mementos is pretty dead now, at least for competitive Smash. Four more chances for good DLC stages, I suppose, Mementos wasn't that bad so I guess there's some hope for good DLC stages.
It's still a good stage for casuals at least. And I guess if you play with the hazards off ruleset online, it's a 1% smaller chance that the randomizer will select Mario Bros / Palutena's Temple / 75m / etc!
I have heard some people complaining about playing on Mementos due to it making people's eyes hurt because of strong contrast and moving parts on the background. I could see this being very likely reason to get the stage banned.
I do agree that the stage might be just a bit too large for competitive play. Letting Mementos to be legal would also mean making New Super Mario Bros. Wii U stage legal. If we would not allow it to be legal when Mementos would be then we would be seen as a bunch of hypocrites.
And let's be real here... Only reason why people are even suggesting that stage to be legal is due to the Persona series and its music.
player: You do not want Mementos to be legal. Projectile zoning is strong enough on PS2 and Kalos which are smaller and worse for keep away. Characters like the Links will be stupidly good on that stage. It's a nightmare for immobile heavyweights.
