Meta SSBU Stagelist Discussion

[ATH_]

EDIT: Oh gosh Pound and CEO's lists are changed on their rules pages now. Ughhhh.

POUND 2019 (Updated, Subject to Change)
Starter Stages

• Battlefield
• Final Destination
• Lylat Cruise
• Smashville
• Pokemon Stadium

Counterpick Stages

• Unova Pokemon League
• Kalos Pokemon League
• Town & City

So. It's no longer testing Frigate or WarioWare... It appears to have gone the route of most other lists right now. Still, the starters are far better than any other major list (except for Genesis 6 which was identical) to date. So overall, this is a great list, but we still have 3 FD-likes and that hurts. Put Yoshi's Story/Island and it's way better, but not perfect. Still better than others though.

CEO 2019 (Updated, Subject to Change)
Neutrals:

• Pokemon Stadium 2
• Smashville
• Battlefield
• Final Destination
• Kalos Pokemon League

Counterpicks:

• Yoshi’s Island (Brawl)
• Yoshi’s Story
• Town and City
• Castle Siege

Big sigh. Castle Siege and Yoshi's Stages are cool, but 5th starter Kalos strikes again. Looks like 40% of game 1s will go to PS2 again.

Oh do not even get me started on this. I could legit write up a lengthy list of simple (in concept, anyway, IDK about in code) changes to currently-banned stages that would drastically improve them, even if they end up still not being allowed overall.

Modders plz. ;_;

This is technically off-topic, but in the far future a modded Ultimate with proper wavedashing and better unique stages would be so damn nice.

I think it was VGFan95 who made a list of changes to Hazards Off stages that would be much more in-line with viability as well as consistency across the stages. Things like using the other side of Frigate, Halberd being only the ship-layout, Arena Ferox being the triplat layout, etc.

I'd even love to see a T&C that's static on the first layout. FoD but the platforms still move (I know this breaks consistency but it's preferred). Smashville platform moving, etc etc. There's plenty of unique layouts we've seen implemented in other games like Rivals of Aether, SSF2, Project M, and mods for Melee.

Imagine how great it'd be to have 5 starters and 6 counterpicks, all completely unique layouts from one another, all balanced amongst each other (to our best extent), and all with great music and no intrusive visuals?

Anyway, to get back on a new topic, what particular reasons do people have for banning Unova? Teleporting, right? Only 3 characters in the game have teleports that are hurt by Unova, and it only happens if you're under the very small crevice. To clarify: Zelda, Mewtwo, and Palutena are those characters. Sheik's teleport has different mechanics or possibly momentum, and never dies to the crevice on Unova. I've only seen Teleporting mentioned, maybe the visuals, but are there other reasons?

 

[Terotrous]

Anyway, to get back on a new topic, what particular reasons do people have for banning Unova?

The three I've heard are broken recoveries, the stage being overly dark and obscuring some projectiles, and perceived redundancy with PS / Kalos. Of these, I find the issue with the visuals to be the most convincing, though I'm still not in favour of banning it, particularly because it's on the smaller side among legal stages.

That being said, I do think reducing Ultimate's stage list to only 8 stages is really sad. If this is the trend I don't really see the argument against mixed hazards. The argument against setting up a specific ruleset for each stage is that it could take a long time but if there's only a few stages it's very quick.

 

[Sean²]

The arguments I tend to hear against Unova, other than the teleporting issues, are that it's too dark and the lightning is distracting. You might not be able to see where Snake's C4 is. However the same arguments are rarely used against standard FD, which is arguably a lot more distracting. But Unova doesn't have the same luxury of Omega replacements that FD does.

The three I've heard are broken recoveries, the stage being overly dark and obscuring some projectiles, and perceived redundancy with PS / Kalos. Of these, I find the issue with the visuals to be the most convincing, though I'm still not in favour of banning it, particularly because it's on the smaller side among legal stages.

That being said, I do think reducing Ultimate's stage list to only 8 stages is really sad. If this is the trend I don't really see the argument against mixed hazards. The argument against setting up a specific ruleset for each stage is that it could take a long time but if there's only a few stages it's very quick.

The biggest argument against mixed hazards is human error. Sets may take more time, because there would be more resets due to choosing the wrong rules and getting a frozen version of your stage choice, or even worse, a hazards on version. Also, Underdog Boost at SCU and the infamous 0.9 have created great resonance throughout the community - with both a hazards on and hazards off ruleset doubling the chances of a mistake to be made amongst the rules. I think it could be done easily at smaller tournaments. Anyone bringing a setup, check the rules in handheld mode during sign-ups if you don't require those with setups to arrive early. But it would be a rough go for anything large.

Also, Unova is not a smaller stage, lol. It's actually on the larger side by a fair bit. The only other generally legal stages that are larger are....Town and City, PS1, and PS2. I think the particular platform layout being slightly closer to the ledges just causes the mind to perceive that it's smaller. Ledge to ledge, it's actually 3.5 units bigger than Kalos.

 

[Munomario777]

BF, FD, Lylat, Kalos, Unova, and Town are, for all practical purposes, the same width (excluding platforms). The latter two are slightly longer by a tiny amount. Unova isn’t a small stage, but it’s also not really fitting to call it especially large (if you’re using BF and FD as the standard).

 

[ATH_]

Interesting that Snake's C-4 being harder to see on Unova is considered ban-worthy for a stage but if a particularly unrepresented character like say, Samus had a projectile similar it would be talked about in a much different light. "Forbidden tech", "Secret tech", or even "Hidden feature/advantage".

The Snake argument is silly, it sounds more like whining because he's played at top play rather than it being an actual problem. If it were any low tier or bottom tier nobody would think to ban a stage over it. You can't doctor stages like that, it's silly and bias'd.

Ya know, I feel like players make a lot of assumptions on what a stage "should" and "shouldn't" be. Not even being harsh, just small things that people take for granted when we could use them as distinctions.

If a character has a teleporting up-special, what's wrong with one stage that punishes that in very unlikely scenarios? We have stages that punish less-precise up-specials (semi-softs) and stages that punish characters with wall-jumps (non-walled stages), so what's so wrong? We've never had a ledge be difficult to teleport to, and Unova isn't that anyway. You can easily snap to ledge from 180 degrees of angles, but the moment you go past that threshold and go beneath the curve of the stage, you're likely to die, if not guaranteed. If a stage can make certain types of recovery at a disadvantage, why can't another do the same for teleports? Simply put, people assume that teleports should be treated like all other up-specials. Even though up-specials are so diverse and different from one another, people assume this. Nearly half the characters in the game have wall-jumps, so why don't we ban any non-walled stage? Pfft.

There are so many contradictions here.

 

[Sean²]

There's nothing wrong with it. People are concerned with wasting bans on a per-character basis due to stage jank. While that's a legitimate reason for some stages, to help 3 characters, I don't see it. No one is concerned with helping heavy characters see more representation with the stage list, but are concerned with 3 recoveries and people who don't want to pay attention when Snake drops a C4. It has a blinking red light for a few seconds, take a mental note on what general area to avoid.

I say if someone is so concerned about wasting bans due to your choice in character's weakness, switch characters. Strengths and weaknesses exist across the board, for a reason. I would likely switch characters to someone with a more reliable recovery if a semisoft was legal and I couldn't ban it midset for whatever reason. The same way I would just ban Unova if I played a teleporter.

 

[ATH_]

There's nothing wrong with it. People are concerned with wasting bans on a per-character basis due to stage jank. While that's a legitimate reason for some stages, to help 3 characters, I don't see it. No one is concerned with helping heavy characters see more representation with the stage list, but are concerned with 3 recoveries and people who don't want to pay attention when Snake drops a C4. It has a blinking red light for a few seconds, take a mental note on what general area to avoid.

I say if someone is so concerned about wasting bans due to your choice in character's weakness, switch characters. Strengths and weaknesses exist across the board, for a reason. I would likely switch characters to someone with a more reliable recovery if a semisoft was legal and I couldn't ban it midset for whatever reason. The same way I would just ban Unova if I played a teleporter.

It's almost like adapting is one of the most important, if not the most important, skill a player can have!

There are adaptable aspects of a game, character, stage, rules, etc. There are unadaptable aspects too. People keep pointing fingers at things that are clearly adaptable and calling it "jank" and it's so childish.

 

[Jotun873]

I would love to see someone organize a tourney with a hazardless stagelist like:

Smashville, battlefield and town and city as starters

Then lylat, castle seige, PS1, unova, kalos and FD as counterpicks.

Obviously it is catered to small stages but most lists cater towards big stages, so why not?

It would also give us a wider range of samples beyomd constamtly having to refer to the one bowser vs richter match on castle seige or just pro friendlies. Because right now all of this is a giant subjectivity arguement.

As for prism tower the regularity of the walk offs are a problem, it it werent we would probably be seeing delfino return as well.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

One interesting thing to note about Prism Tower is that, AFAIK, it's the only touring/transforming stage that's 100% predictable. It follows a set pattern every time, unlike similar stages that have at least some degree of randomness involved.

 

[ATH_]

Hello, I'd like to drop some data about Town & City. I've seen many twitter lists from Japan and local scenes utilize Town & City as it's own unique layout, completely different from FD and Kalos. Allow me to debunk that with actual data.

Timing the transformations, I timed it myself and am not relying on old Smash 4 data, the initial inverted Battlefield layout lasts for 30 seconds. Then, it transforms to a barren "FD-like" stage for 15 seconds. Afterward, it becomes a Kalos-like layout which lasts for 35 seconds. Then another 15 second gap, then the inverted layout for 35 seconds, another 15 second gap, and so on.

What's the big deal? Well, let's put this data through some math and figure out just how unique it is.

On an 8 minute timer, the stage transforms exactly 18 times (19 Occurrences of layouts total). Here are the percentages of time spent on each layout:

• Inverted Battlefield Layout: 35.41% (5 Occurrences)
• Final Destination-Like Layout: 28.12% (9 Occurrences)
• Kalos-Like Layout: 36.48% (5 Occurrences)

Looks pretty balanced, yeah? Well, maybe not. Even though the standard layout and the Kalos layout are present almost equally, it's not quite that simple. We know that Final Destination and Kalos Pokemon League are very similar stages in terms of character advantage/disadvantage. Of course Kalos's walls set it to be different and its platforms make it unique enough to warrant another slot similar to stages like Yoshi's Story, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), and Unova Pokemon League. However, many TOs and top players have agreed that both stages are quite open in the center and therefore promote camping and projectile users.

This is not an inherently bad thing on its own, however, when choosing what your starter stages are going to be, this is something imperative to take into account. How long is Town & City actually just going to be basically Final Destination? Is it okay for us to have two starters be mostly the same as each other? Should we be loosely comparing the layouts to existing stages at all?

Well, how about this then. Instead of calling it and dividing it into "Final Destination" and "Kalos" let's look at it as "Open" instead. As well, let's not say "Inverted Battlefield" and call it "Non-Open" instead. In truth, the data can be organized like this and you'll see what I'm saying:

• Non-Open Layout: 35.41% (5 Occurrences)
• Open Layout: 64.59% (14 Occurrences)

In this case, we are defining Open as a stage layout where no platforms completely reside above the terrain. Non-Open is the opposite, in which there is at least one platform fully encompassed above the terrain. You could get more detailed in describing these, but the more specific we get the more bias is created in my opinion.

So, what can we extrapolate? Clearly, this means that Town & City is not as unique as lots of Tournament Organizers believe. Having it on a list of Starters/Neutrals alongside another Open stage (Kalos or FD) is spelling an imbalance to every single Game 1 of your tournament. This is precisely why most games go to PS2. During the striking process, you have to strike the two Open stages or your opponent has to. Then, you're left with PS2 as their next best stage because of its size, and you have to just deal with that. That's not fair at all.

 

[Sean²]

Would anyone be interested in having an online event of some kind, with a more liberal stagelist? I'm thinking maybe something similar to what I've posted previously. As long as everyone is hardwired and has decent internet, it should be fine.

 

[Munomario777]

Would anyone be interested in having an online event of some kind, with a more liberal stagelist? I'm thinking maybe something similar to what I've posted previously. As long as everyone is hardwired and has decent internet, it should be fine.

I hold online tournaments and sometimes like to experiment with stuff. Our normal competitive stagelist is

Spoiler

Starters:
- Battlefield
- Town and City
- Smashville
- PKMN Stadium 2
- Unova

CPs:
- Story
- Island
- FD
- Kalos
- Lylat
- Siege
- MKU

(the latter two stages were voted in favor of when i polled people on whether or not to keep them)

Sometimes, such as this Saturday, I also hold "For Fun" tournaments with themed stagelists and characters and whatnot:

Spoiler

I don't think this is exactly like what you posted about before, but I reckon this is probably the best way to incorporate "weird" stages TBH. There is a reason why stuff like Frigate, Rainbow Cruise, etc is usually absent from competitive events

 

[ATH_]

Between Midgar and Mushroom Kingdom U, what seems to be the better option for a Large variant of Battlefield?

Midgar is about 14 units wider than Battlefield (for reference PS2 is about 26 units wider than Battlefield), but is that enough? Playing the stage, it certainly feels like a nice large variant, but that could just be me. It has a 250 box instead of 240, with the same 192 ceiling, so that helps its case. The platforms are a good bit larger too, as seen in this spoiler:

Spoiler: Midgar to Battlefield Comparison

Red is Battlefield, Cyan is Midgar, White is where they overlap.

Whereas with Mushroom Kingdom U, there are more differences in both the layout and size. MKU would be by far the largest legal stage at 216 units wide (about 56 units wider than Battlefield), however this is mitigated significantly by the blast zone still being a 250 box with a 192 ceiling. So, massive terrain, but you still die at the same percents technically. Though, of course, people mention Ledge-to-Blast-zone length and could say you die earlier on MKU to most stages.

You can see just how different MKU is to Battlefield here:

Spoiler: Mushroom Kingdom U to Battlefield Comparison

Red is Battlefield, Cyan is Mushroom Kingdom U, White is where they overlap.

The left and top platform are at similar height and position (sorta) while the right most platform stands in between the height of the first two. To me, MKU would be the clear input as a Large variant of Battlefield, but honestly? I think it's simply too different? As in not that it isn't a viable stage on its own, but that it doesn't really provide the same strengths and weaknesses that Battlefield does really at all to me.

So, I'm at a struggling point, in which MKU is more different and therefore brings more variety, but Midgar is more better-fit to fill the role as a larger Battlefield.

Though, I will say, a Larger Battlefield is not exactly necessary but it allows for more calculated stage listing when you have a large/medium/small variant of each stage so you can balance your list's sizes accordingly.

Basically, what's everyone's thoughts on the comparison here? Is MKU too different to be called a Large BF? Is Midgar not different enough to be its own stage? I haven't seen Midgar mentioned more than once or twice, so I thought I'd shine some light on it here.

 

[Munomario777]

I don't think we're in particular need of a Larger Battlefield to begin with, and Midgar isn't meaningfully distinct from BF in the same way that Story is. MKU > Midgar.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Agreed that between the two, MKU is by far the more distinct and therefore my preferred choice for a large triplat.

As a random aside, I'd be curious to see which characters are able to shark the BF platforms with utilt/usmash but can't do the same on MKU due to the higher platforms.

 

[ATH_]

Full Bloom 5 is tomorrow and has the most balanced stage list I've seen in a long time.

Here's the infographic:

Getting rid of an open stage like Town & City is necessary if your list is this small. I'd personally appreciate Unova, but due to people concerned whether or not it's too similar to Battlefield, I understand its absence.

Finally, some balanced tournament sets!

 

[waVe64]

I was thinking about the stages that are legal in my area (The EMG/LMM! Toronto legal stage list) and it's just so damn boring.
Why is there both smashville and town and city? I get they're both competitive but it's straight up boring.

Other stages that would be at least interesting replacing one of the two would be this:

Wily Castle (hazards off)
-Small stage with good edge zones
-Small walls for more difficult wall jumps/techs (more difficult than Kalos)

Fountain of Dreams (Hazards on, off would work too)
-Transforming stage that is still good competitively
-Melee classic
-Nice on the eyes

WarioWare (Hazards off)
-Really interesting design (2 platforms on either side)
-You know I love them walls
-Small blast zones that make for fast matches
-Ashley's theme

Dream Land 64 (Hazards preferably off, but with on it makes it more interesting)
-Very vibrant, not oversaturated like sm4sh
-If hazards on, Wispy shakes up the fight, maybe a problem but wasn't really in melee
(If hazards are off, it's just kind of another Battlefield)

Mushroom Kingdom U (Hazards off)
-Really high platforms, unique by only having 3
-Floor is really long, can encourage combos
I'm not sure if turning off the hazards stops the transformation of it turning into ice and going into the castle (maybe I'm thinking of another stage)

That's just for starters. The stage list right now is competitive, but its really boring. In melee it was OK because the scene was focused on the gameplay and the techs. We have 103 stages and the most boring ones are used in tourneys.

And if you're saying that Smashville and Town and City are both in because they're slightly different, what about PS1 and PS2? And you can't say different transformations really, because #1 hazards are off, #2 SV and Town both have different platform placements.

It's really just my thoughts, because I want to see the game not only be fun to play, but fun to watch. Plenty of additions such as the scoreboard between deaths were placed for the viewer, and different stages should be in tourneys to keep it interesting. Honestly that was the problem with 64 for me, the only stage was dream land, which made it stale.

 

[ATH_]

I was thinking about the stages that are legal in my area (The EMG/LMM! Toronto legal stage list) and it's just so damn boring.
Why is there both smashville and town and city? I get they're both competitive but it's straight up boring.

Other stages that would be at least interesting replacing one of the two would be this:

Wily Castle (hazards off)
-Small stage with good edge zones
-Small walls for more difficult wall jumps/techs (more difficult than Kalos)

Fountain of Dreams (Hazards on, off would work too)
-Transforming stage that is still good competitively
-Melee classic
-Nice on the eyes

WarioWare (Hazards off)
-Really interesting design (2 platforms on either side)
-You know I love them walls
-Small blast zones that make for fast matches
-Ashley's theme

Dream Land 64 (Hazards preferably off, but with on it makes it more interesting)
-Very vibrant, not oversaturated like sm4sh
-If hazards on, Wispy shakes up the fight, maybe a problem but wasn't really in melee
(If hazards are off, it's just kind of another Battlefield)

Mushroom Kingdom U (Hazards off)
-Really high platforms, unique by only having 3
-Floor is really long, can encourage combos
I'm not sure if turning off the hazards stops the transformation of it turning into ice and going into the castle (maybe I'm thinking of another stage)

That's just for starters. The stage list right now is competitive, but its really boring. In melee it was OK because the scene was focused on the gameplay and the techs. We have 103 stages and the most boring ones are used in tourneys.

And if you're saying that Smashville and Town and City are both in because they're slightly different, what about PS1 and PS2? And you can't say different transformations really, because #1 hazards are off, #2 SV and Town both have different platform placements.

It's really just my thoughts, because I want to see the game not only be fun to play, but fun to watch. Plenty of additions such as the scoreboard between deaths were placed for the viewer, and different stages should be in tourneys to keep it interesting. Honestly that was the problem with 64 for me, the only stage was dream land, which made it stale.

Town & City is far different from Smashville and honestly I don't really see what there is similar between the two apart from visuals?...

T&C is an average 160 unit size stage (technically it's like 164 but it's close enough to average). The platforms make up an Inverted Battlefield layout, then a FD-like layout, then a Kalos-like layout. Check out the post I made here going into the details of this. As well, it has a 230/195 blast zone (close walls, high ceiling).

Smashville is a small stage, at 140 units wide, only has a single layout with its central platform that is much larger than any T&C platform. It has similar blast zones, but its size and layout are far different enough to warrant separate slots.

What matters more than anything is that they both support completely different types of characters. Smashville attracts characters with good recoveries who want to combo off the central plat and kill through edge guarding. T&C supports characters with good projectiles, good defensive options, and less good recoveries because it's the larger stage. In other words, T&C is the more open stage, while Smashville is the small but combo-heavy stage.

It's not like TOs didn't try to get mixed hazards to work, it's just that it didn't prove to be consistent for large tournaments where more mistakes were made. For me personally, I'm designing a ruleset where the Starters are all Hazards On and the Counterpicks are all Hazards Off to combat the chance that mistakes are made.

If you'd like, give your local TO a talk! Ask them about other stages and gauge what their reasoning is. You can't just stick every viable stage onto a list and call it a day, or else we'd have Pictochat 2 + FD + Wily Castle + Kalos and camping would be rampantly overpowered. See if they're interested in trying out stages like Unova, Yoshi's Island, Yoshi's Story, Mushroom Kingdom U, Frigate Orpheon, Lylat Cruise, Castle Siege, etc etc!

Just note that if you're indeed simply a player looking into further reasoning of logic behind stage lists, you're not a TO as is and therefore you should really read up on the discussion and see what people think and why.

Currently, the most common issue is with the 5th starter. I made this post to show how we can find the best 5th starter, but lots of TOs seem to not have this way of thinking about it and instead just have 2 open/wide stages as starters, unbalancing their lists.

 

[ATH_]

So this thread's been dead all week, huh? Well here's something!

While I'm working on obtaining a proper capture card so that I may begin hosting online tournaments, here is what I believe I have settled on.

The concept here is that I will be running a series of tournaments that alternate between Conservative and Experimental. The Experimental lists have Rotational Counterpicks, that rotate in and out of each tournament to see how they perform. The final list is my list for offline tournaments that I believe is very doable. Some semblance of reasoning behind each spoiler.

LIST 1: Conservative (2 bans)
Starters

• Battlefield
• Pokemon Stadium 2
• Smashville
• Kalos Pokemon League
• Lylat Cruise

Counterpicks

• Final Destination
• Yoshi's Story
• Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
• Unova Pokemon League

This is what I personally believe to be the "ideal" stage list. Note that among the starters all of them are unique to each other in layout, size, blast zones, etc. Every stage on this list is static, which I believe is a big deal. The lack of Town & City is quite simply due to it inflating the amount of open/wide stage there are (increasing it from 2 to 3) while other stage types only have 2 representing each. Sure, T&C could be a counterpick and I could increase the bans to 3, but I feel as though this version is much cleaner.

Spoiler: Reasoning

In this section of my reasoning, I am not going to go into each individual stage, but instead I'm going to address some potential concerns.

Q: Unova? That stage kills characters with teleporters.
A: If you intentionally let it kill you, sure. If you have any knowledge of the stage, you should know to avoid going under the lip. More people are killed by being pineappled under PS2 and Smashville than on Unova. There are 9 characters affected by Unova, and it really does take either ignorance or intention to die to it. Either way, other stages support/nerf certain types of recoveries (Walls, size, platform placement, etc) so why not Unova? There's no difference there.

Q: Slopes are jank. You can do too many broken moves on slopes and it messes with smash attacks/projectiles!
A: I see no problem with this. If you are indeed aware that slopes change certain moves, should you not be able to adapt to that? That is most definitely an adaptable aspect of a stage. Olimar's down smash is too powerful on slopes? Sorry, but this isn't brain surgery. How specific characters perform on a stage should not dictate whether or not the stage is banned, it should only dictate how good that character is. If your projectiles aren't good on sloped stage, then they aren't the stages you're going to want to go to. That's how the game works. Some stages are better or worse for your character.

Q: Why not X stage?
A: The stage:

• Is not static.
• Has semi-soft terrain.
• Is far too large/small.
• Is not unique in its hazardless form.
• Would imbalance the current list otherwise.

LIST 2: Experimental (p4p1)
Starters

• Battlefield
• Pokemon Stadium 2
• Smashville
• Kalos Pokemon League
• Lylat Cruise

Counterpicks (8)

• Final Destination
• Town & City
• Yoshi's Story
• Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
• Unova Pokemon League
  • Mushroom Kingdom U
  • Castle Siege
  • Halberd

Rotational Counterpicks

• Frigate Orpheon
• Rainbow Cruise
• Prism Tower
• Brinstar
• Wuhu Island

The Rotational Counterpicks rotate among the three isolated counterpicks (MKU, Siege, Halberd). This list serves for more experimental tournaments, so that the players who wish for more stages may test them out and help the cause of bringing them to larger tournaments. It's ambitious, but with proper data we could see more locals trying out uncommon stages. The purpose behind using pXp1 here is due to the amount of unique stages. It's significantly more difficult to tell which stages your opponent will want to go to, and it's possible that they'll take you to a stage you really didn't want to go to because you felt it was necessary to ban Kalos and FD. So, we use the pXp1 system to ensure that you get some form of an educated decision.

For an experimental tournament, the reasoning required is very little. Most of it is what I already said above. If there are any other questions related to this list, feel free to ask and I'd be happy to consider your thoughts.

LIST 3: Offline Divided(p3p1)
Starters (Hazards On)

• Battlefield
• Final Destination
• Smashville
• Fountain of Dreams
• Town & City

Counterpicks (Hazards Off)

• Yoshi’s Story
• Yoshi’s Island (Brawl)
• Kalos Pokemon League
• Unova Pokemon League
• Pokemon Stadium 2
• Lylat Cruise

This list is purely unique to the other lists, in that it is my current list for offline play. By having all Starters be Hazards On and all Counterpicks be Hazards Off, we eliminate the potential for mistakes by roughly 41%. This is due to the fact that a mistake can't happen game 1, and assuming only half of matches will go to game 3. The one gripe I have with this one is the lack of a biplat as a starter, but in actuality, this might be an excellent thing considering how often people complaining that PS2 is played far too much. Not that that's a basis for making it a Counterpick, but in this case, it has to be a Counterpick.

Spoiler: Reasoning

Again, this will address common concerns, not go into detail on every single stage.

Q: Final Destination shouldn't be a starter, it's far too polarizing, right?
A: That it is, however, we are left with no other choice really in terms of potential starter stages. I considered Lylat Cruise, however, that too brings its own share of issues, especially as a starter. There's also Pokemon Stadium 1, but that stage also doesn't really fit the bill for a starter. It's a sacrifice to be made, but it doesn't affect all that much in the long haul.

Q: Fountain of Dreams lags the game, should that stage really be a starter?
A: The lag on FoD is really negligible. Many people have reported it being gone, and I myself cannot seem to get the stage to lag either. I assume there's some inconsistency to this, however I do personally expect this to be resolved in the coming 3.0.0 patch. If it isn't, maybe I'll consider a different starter.

Q: Why not just have hazards off completely?
A: If it wasn't clear, stages like Fountain of Dreams and Town & City are very different with hazards off. T&C becomes another open/wide stage. FoD becomes Battlefield with extremely slight differences. When we lose these two stages, our list becomes the Conservative list above. This is a means to get two more stages, as well as have a more interesting and skillful list.

I am unsure when I will be able to host online tournaments, but as soon as I can I will be using the Conservative and Experimental lists. Thanks for reading.

Sincerely, Vivian.

 

[Munomario777]

this is what i'm running for my onlines, with 2 bans + TSR (if you CP a stage and then win that match, you can't CP there a second time).

(all hazardless)

- kalos is a starter over FD since FD is historically polarizing
- unova is the fifth starter because IMO it's a remarkably "neutral" stage, in that many MUs will see it as an appropriate stage game 1 to give neither character a large advantage (unless you main the, like, 2 characters that really get screwed over by the teleport thing)
- BF and FD use different forms because it's a themed tournament (for the 20th anniversary of smash 64)

 

[Vapor_exe]

So no WarioWare, Inc? Awwww

 

[Frihetsanka]

So no WarioWare, Inc? Awwww

There was a problem fetching the tweet

No WarioWare, unless you want characters to kill with throw setups at like 40-60% (or 20%, in the case of Charizard*, apparently).

*Not sure whether Roy had optimal DI or not.

 

[Vapor_exe]

What about Brinstar?

 

[MarioManTAW]

What about Brinstar?

Unusual layout, slopes, semi-solid base platform.

 

[ATH_]

What about Brinstar?

I do believe you have asked this question at least 3 times in this thread. Have you not read previous responses? I recommend doing so.

For the most part it's the semi-soft terrain.

 

[Sean²]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

No WarioWare, unless you want characters to kill with throw setups at like 40-60% (or 20%, in the case of Charizard*, apparently).

*Not sure whether Roy had optimal DI or not.

Probably wouldn't have mattered how he DI'ed at that position tbh

 

[Falco_DJ]

this is what i'm running for my onlines, with 2 bans + TSR (if you CP a stage and then win that match, you can't CP there a second time).

View attachment 204063

(all hazardless)

- kalos is a starter over FD since FD is historically polarizing
- unova is the fifth starter because IMO it's a remarkably "neutral" stage, in that many MUs will see it as an appropriate stage game 1 to give neither character a large advantage (unless you main the, like, 2 characters that really get screwed over by the teleport thing)
- BF and FD use different forms because it's a themed tournament (for the 20th anniversary of smash 64)

That's a pretty good stagelist! Can I get the font for the stage names? It's a good one!

Edit: The design on the picture is also super good! If you aren't already you should use that for promoting your tournament.

Edit 2: Are you streaming the tournament? I'd like to watch it.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Did patches in Smash 4 also alter some stages? Like changing the blastzones etc.?
So maybe they could patch WarioWare by making the side Blastzones further away from the actual stage. Then the stage would still be small but not everything kills at 50%.

 

[Sean²]

I don't recall them doing so. The only major thing I recall them doing with stages was making some Hazards Off for 8-player Smash only. E.g. Pyrosphere no longer had Ridley show up, etc. I wouldn't get your hopes up.

 

[Munomario777]

Falco_DJ Thanks! The font is actually taken from Splatoon 2; I found it online just by looking up fonts from that game. The full image is indeed what I'm using for promotion:

Spoiler

No plans for a stream, sadly.

Lacrimosa All I remember is what they patched Lylat's underside to be easier to ride up from below. (Ultimate retains this change, as opposed to using the shape the stage had in pre-patch Smash 4.)

 

[Falco_DJ]

Falco_DJ Thanks! The font is actually taken from Splatoon 2; I found it online just by looking up fonts from that game. The full image is indeed what I'm using for promotion:

Spoiler

No plans for a stream, sadly.

Lacrimosa All I remember is what they patched Lylat's underside to be easier to ride up from below. (Ultimate retains this change, as opposed to using the shape the stage had in pre-patch Smash 4.)

Okay, awesome! I'm sorry it's taken so long for me to reply I've had a pretty busy day since about 2o'clock. Thanks for the font! I hope you have a good tournament!

 

[Munomario777]

No problem - thanks!

 

[ShneeOscar]

Smash and Splash 5 Stagelist:

https://twitter.com/SmashNSplash/status/1115612754939920385

 

[Falco_DJ]

Smash and Splash 5 Stagelist:

https://twitter.com/SmashNSplash/status/1115612754939920385

Nice! I’m looking forward to smash n’ splash! (Watching it that is I can’t compete)

 

[ATH_]

Smash N Splash easily has the best stagelist to date. 3 bans is a much nicer solution to having T&C be there alongside Kalos/FD. Props to the TOs working there.

Really happy with this one.

 

[Louisacommie]

Mementos hazardless should be legal and replace castle seige

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Nintendo set us up the bomb and dropped a full Joker DLC explanation video, release date TOMORROW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmuTGcbu4Kc&feature=youtu.be&t=445

I'm going to enclose the rest of this post in spoiler tags on the off chance that anyone wants to surprise themselves with it.

Spoiler

His stage is Mementos and it actually looks freaking sweet:

There are hazards -- temporary walls and ceilings come and go, a solid platform takes up residence at the missing triplat position, and a fast moving train drives by below the stage acting as a damaging floor. But we don't care about hazards because hazards off is a thing (thank ****ing god) and as long as hazardless Mementos is static as shown above, I think it's 100% legal.

 

[Untouch]

Mementos is LOOKING legal.
There is a stage element that's a ceiling of life, BUT it seems to spawn later.
If that doesn't spawn with hazards off, I think it should be legal. It's battlefield with a slanted stage and one less platform.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Mementos hazardless should be legal and replace castle seige

Can't really make that call until we know what the actual blastzones are. Could be massive for all we know.

 

[ATH_]

We can't test it until tomorrow, but it looks really interesting in the least.