Meta SSBU Stagelist Discussion

[Munomario777]

How about instead of banning stages because you are too lazy, you actually learn how they work. But who am I kidding, learning to adapt is the last thing on all of your minds, which is why you turn off items.

nice meme

 

[ad516]

Don't think Omegas or BF versions of stages should be allowed tbh. The huge variance in backgrounds just becomes an extra counterpick quality. There are many things that are already difficult enough to see without blending into the background or having a back ground with a lot more motion than normal. They also have different camera angles sometimes too. With 100+ stages, its just kind of silly to allow people to swap out all these backgrounds and nonsense to screw with your perception.

Variety =/= screwing with your perception, the more legal stages the merrier in my opinion, it's just more fun to watch

 

[Pizzaguylol]

Don't think Omegas or BF versions of stages should be allowed tbh. The huge variance in backgrounds just becomes an extra counterpick quality. There are many things that are already difficult enough to see without blending into the background or having a back ground with a lot more motion than normal. They also have different camera angles sometimes too. With 100+ stages, its just kind of silly to allow people to swap out all these backgrounds and nonsense to screw with your perception.

Strong disagree here. Unless it has legal or technical issues, I don't see the issue. I honestly find regular FD's background to be kind of annoying at times, but I guarantee people won't call for a ban on it.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Don't think Omegas or BF versions of stages should be allowed tbh. The huge variance in backgrounds just becomes an extra counterpick quality. There are many things that are already difficult enough to see without blending into the background or having a back ground with a lot more motion than normal. They also have different camera angles sometimes too. With 100+ stages, its just kind of silly to allow people to swap out all these backgrounds and nonsense to screw with your perception.

Disagree in the strongest possible terms. The only stage in the game that can realistically be accused of having a distracting background is Umbra Clock Tower, and IIRC its most distracting elements (namely Fortitudo's roar shaking the screen) go away for Omega/BF forms.

 

[Tesh]

The variety doesn't add any value though. Its just 100+ backgrounds, camera locations and lighting.

 

[osby]

The variety doesn't add any value though. Its just 100+ backgrounds, camera locations and lighting.

I saves people from looking at same places umpteenth time. And let's be honest, who didn't grow at least a bit sick of Animal Crossing music because of how Smashville and Town & City is used in everywhere?

Plus, if it doesn't add any real value, it also means it doesn't detract anything.

 

[Idon]

The variety doesn't add any value though. Its just 100+ backgrounds, camera locations and lighting.

Doesn't add any mechanical value, but visually it's a nice change of pace.

It'd be like banning alt costumes except for characters it's BF/FD.

 

[Frihetsanka]

The variety doesn't add any value though. Its just 100+ backgrounds, camera locations and lighting.

Not having to deal with Battlefield's and FD's lightning issues would be nice, at least. Different music too, which is nice for spectators.

 

[Pizzaguylol]

The variety doesn't add any value though. Its just 100+ backgrounds, camera locations and lighting.

I strongly disagree. For everyone who isn't the two players involved, it makes a huge difference not having to see the same exact aesthetics and music every time. Sakurai and his team worked hard to make sure these forms are functionally the exact same as the original stages. Let's use them.

 

[ad516]

To be completely fair, Flat Zone and Dream Land GB's omegas should probably be banned because of this.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Vapor_exe]

To be completely fair, Flat Zone and Dream Land GB's omegas should probably be banned because of this.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

It's probably going to be fixed in the next patch

 

[Vapor_exe]

Would anyone like to see Pictochat 2 legal?

 

[Turk Injaydii]

I believe a good place for any stage discussion to start is the subjects of M2K's latest video on stages, so please follow the link below and give it a watch. I believe all TOs should view this and strongly consider M2K's points about (1) balancing the list to best allow all characters an equal playing field and (2) refraining from being overly conservative SO early. I'd also recommend you watch video if you plan to discuss this post because its the main influence for my stage list ideology.

M2K's lates Stage discussion video as of 1/2/19:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79F06MJ01W8&t=1393s

Ok, so here's my main thoughts after watching the video:

1. I'm not a huge fan of Lylat due to the popular video that showed the character flying from below the stage and through it. However, M2K, being the lab monster that he is, claims to have seen the glitch happen on other stages and that the occurrence is rare. If we assume that M2K's intentions are genuine (and I believe that they are because he's one of the few well-known community figure heads that regularly advocates for all Smash players to be unified as 1 community and expresses love for all the games), then the widely known glitch should not dissuade TOs from allowing it until further testing reveals new issues; and if it never does, leave Lylat in. Its unique platform layout and tilted base offer a lot as a counterpick. The tilted surfaces offer varied play, and its on the players to learn how to most effectively play on tilted surfaces of stages like Lylat, Yoshi's Island [Brawl], Yoshi's Story [Melee], and Castle Siege.

2. The stage list is HEAVILY influential on the meta, so it's ABSOLUTELY necessary that it be as balanced as possible. Consequently, stage lists NEED to try very to have just as many or nearly has many small stages as wide stages; see video to hear detailed reasoning.

3. TOs need to be more willing to try the stages that folks are vocally contesting. Educate yourselves on the game, be leaders, and don't be scared to include a stage players don't like. Most people are level-headed and will simply appreciate you holding an event. I am a TO and I allowed Umbra Clock Tower in a few Sm4sh tourneys right after the stage's release, and most people loved having the new stage to try in bracket and spectators loved the change of scenery. We ended up banning it later, but at least we were open-minded enough to give it a chance. That's the type of mentality we need from our TOs.

4. If you as a player don't like a stage, don't castrate TOs for letting people try it out. You have bans, so if you REALLY hate a stage, just ban it. For example, if you die at 0% to an Inceniroar on Warioware...that's your fault. You could have banned it. Don't like the tilts on Castle Siege and Lylat?... ban it. We as a community need to stay open-minded and give ourselves the best chance of thorough testing which can ultimately lead to the best stage list for our game later.


All that being said, here's my stage rules proposal:

General Rules
-Each player bans 2 stages from the starter list before the first round. The single remaining stage is played on.
-This is a 12 stage list, so winner of each round bans 3 stages from the complete stage list.
-Players cannot return to a stage on which they previously won.
-If both players have won a round on a stage, that stage becomes available as a counter pick for both players again.
-Hazards stay off simply for logistical reasons at larger tourneys. I hate this and wish people could be trusted, but it's simply not worth the risk to rely on trusting players not to mess up the rules somehow through switches.

Starter Stages
-Smashville
-Battlefield
-Final Destination
-Castle Siege (1 small stage is needed to offset Pkmn Stdm 2 being a starter since it is one of the widest stages. Warioware is too small to be a starter, Yoshi's Story [Melee] is arguably not as ideal because it would put 2 triplats in the starter list, but I'm sure a case could be made for it as a starter)
-Pkmn Stdm 2 (though I personally prefer 1 aesthetically, everyone seems to be using this one so *shrugs* it doesn't really matter)

Counter Pick Stages
-Lylat Cruise
-Yoshi's Island [Brawl]
-Yoshi's Story [Melee]
-Town and City
-Kalos Pkmn League
-Warioware
-Dreamland/ Frigate Orpheon/ Skyloft/ etc

Closing thoughts and clarifications:

The slashes ( / ) between the last stages in the counter pick list indicate that I'm not sure which would be the best last stage, but I definitely think we need a 12th stage to justify 3 bans. I think 3-bans/12-Stages allows players to ensure they strike stages that heavily favor a character while simultaneously ensuring the stage selector still gets a stage that favors him/her. For example, I would likely ban Warioware, Yoshi's Story, and Castle Siege against an Inceniroar/Ganon/etc, but they could still take me to a small'ish stage like Smashville. Regarding the selection of that 12th stage, I need to do more research. I would love to see the full breakdown of the blastzone size and shape of each stage to best enable me to make the best choice; if anyone has the link to such a resource, I'd love to have it. Hell, I honestly think a case for a 14-stage list could be made, so I'm all ears if folks have things to say about multiple stages. Early on, more is better because that leads to the testing of more stages.

Anywho, those are my thoughts on stages. I'm open to civil discourse about any of the points discussed and look forward to hearing the thoughts of others!
-Turk

 

[Vapor_exe]

If we are going to go for 14 or more stages, why not add Rainbow Cruise/Ride and Pictochat 2? (also you can't go under the stage on Pictochat 2)

 

[Turk Injaydii]

If we are going to go for 14 or more stages, why not add Rainbow Cruise/Ride and Pictochat 2? (also you can't go under the stage on Pictochat 2)

As I said, I'm open to just about anything (within reason). Idk if I'd want to get more than 14, because then we'd need another ban and things start getting a bit much. Rainbow Cruise is one I'd be less apt to use simple due to the persistent wall on the right; for the same reason, I wouldn't advocate for Dracula's Castle. As for Pictochat, I'll be honest. I've barely touched that stage and would need to change that before discussing it.

 

[Vapor_exe]

As I said, I'm open to just about anything (within reason). Idk if I'd want to get more than 14, because then we'd need another ban and things start getting a bit much. Rainbow Cruise is one I'd be less apt to use simple due to the persistent wall on the right; for the same reason, I wouldn't advocate for Dracula's Castle. As for Pictochat, I'll be honest. I've barely touched that stage and would need to change that before discussing it.

I going to test out Rainbow Cruise/Ride first to see if it could be legal, and Pictochat 2 could also use some testing.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I'm not a huge fan of Lylat due to the popular video that showed the character flying from below the stage and through it.

I, and other people as well, have said several times in this thread and other places that the "Lylat bug" most likely is a global engine bug and not Lylat related. People need to pay better attention.

The "flying through stages" bug is most likely not Lylat specific.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[dav3yb]

I going to test out Rainbow Cruise/Ride first to see if it could be legal, and Pictochat 2 could also use some testing.

I don't see any reason pictochat shouldn't at least be an Echo for FD.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

I, and other people as well, have said several times in this thread and other places that the "Lylat bug" most likely is a global engine bug and not Lylat related. People need to pay better attention.

The "flying through stages" bug is most likely not Lylat specific.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Why did you waste keystrokes with this post? It didn't further the discussion in any way and it is deemed irrelevant when one reads the content that immediately follows that which you quoted. "However, M2K, being the lab monster that he is, claims to have seen the glitch happen on other stages and that the occurrence is rare. If we assume that M2K's intentions are genuine (and I believe that they are because he's one of the few well-known community figure heads that regularly advocates for all Smash players to be unified as 1 community and expresses love for all the games), then the widely known glitch should not dissuade TOs from allowing it"

Did you simply stop reading when you got to what you quoted? Because when one reads my post entirely, it becomes VERY evident that I am advocating for Lylat and Warioware's inclusion. I won't respond to this subject matter again, but I'm all ears if you'd like to talk about something constructive.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Did you simply stop reading when you got to what you quoted? Because when one reads my post entirely, it becomes VERY evident that I am advocating for Lylat and Warioware's inclusion. I won't respond to this subject matter again, but I'm all ears if you'd like to talk about something constructive.

No, I read it all, but saying "M2K said so" makes you come accross as someone who hasn't kept up with the stage discussion, seeing how people figured this out December 1st. Anyone who still thinks it's a Lylat specific bug either hasn't kept up with the discussion or has some explaining to do.

Mew2King didn't join the public discussion until recently. PracticalTAS posted that December 1st.

As for wasting key strokes, I've spent a lot of time in this and the previous thread repeating myself, so I'd argue by making a bold point I might end up clarifying things for some people who still think it's a Lylat specific issue.

Reminder to everyone here: It's most likely not a Lylat specific issue.

 

[Vapor_exe]

Hmm, idk but maybe Kongo Jungle 64 should be legal??????

 

[Turk Injaydii]

No, I read it all, but saying "M2K said so" makes you come accross as someone who hasn't kept up with the stage discussion, seeing how people figured this out December 1st. Anyone who still thinks it's a Lylat specific bug either hasn't kept up with the discussion or has some explaining to do.

Mew2King didn't join the public discussion until recently. PracticalTAS posted that December 1st.

As for wasting key strokes, I've spent a lot of time in this and the previous thread repeating myself, so I'd argue by making a bold point I might end up clarifying things for some people who still think it's a Lylat specific issue.

Reminder to everyone here: It's most likely not a Lylat specific issue.

Cool, so you've read all of my post and have been actively engaged in the stage discussion for a while. That being said, are you aware of a resource that shows blastzone sizes and shapes for all the stages commonly suggested for consideration in competitive play? I'm sure such a resource exists, but I've failed to find it on my own. I'd love to study one. Also, what are you thoughts on some of topics such as a stage list of 12-14, some stage(s) you believe absolutely should(n't) be tried in competition, presence of more than 1 triplat stage in a stage list, or the need for more smaller stages to become more commonly accepted to balance the meta? Regarding the last 2 points, idk if it's just coincidence on my end, but I've yet to view a tourney video display a match on a triplat that isn't Battlefield and I've only seen 1 Canadian local using Warioware and 1 tourney video in which Castle Siege was played on.

 

[Munomario777]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

YES

HOPE IS RESTORED

 

[Vapor_exe]

That's pretty cool, no Fountain of Dreams tho, I'll take it

 

[Nidtendofreak]

That's pretty cool, no Fountain of Dreams tho, I'll take it

FoD does have the frame drop issue. That's not disputed at all, happens seemingly at random, and could decide a game. Its never going to make the list as long as that exists.

As for the Genesis list, pretty happy to see Castle Siege made it. Lylat is definitely a gamble: regardless of how the glitch does or doesn't happen there if it happens again on stream the stage is dead. It will never be tried again.

 

[NewGuy79]

The only change I'd ask for with the genesis list would be to include wario ware in some fashion, possibly replacing unova as I'm unconvinced that 2 biplats are needed with stadium being a starter.

Overall though its a good start.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

The only change I'd ask for with the genesis list would be to include warrior ware in some fashion, possibly replacing unova as I'm unconvinced that 2 biplats are needed with stadium being a starter.

Overall though its a good start.

Literally this. I just saw the Genesis list above in the thread and was scrolling down to comment exactly this. Three biplats in 1 stage list is bad and too many of these stage bases are wide. Taking Warioware over Unova would've made this list amazing. I'm more in favor of being more liberal and going with a larger stage list this early, but this list ain't bad. The inclusion of Lylat and Yoshi's Story is amazing.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Lylat is definitely a gamble: regardless of how the glitch does or doesn't happen there if it happens again on stream the stage is dead.

I hope it'll happen on one of the more popular stages, then people might realize it's not Lylat-specific. It'd be really bad luck for it to happen on Lylat and no other stage (during the tournament), but if it did then the anti-Lylat mobs will likely win...

That being said, are you aware of a resource that shows blastzone sizes and shapes for all the stages commonly suggested for consideration in competitive play? I'm sure such a resource exists, but I've failed to find it on my own. I'd love to study one.

Sure: Telu's, Muno's.

Also, what are you thoughts on some of topics such as a stage list of 12-14, some stage(s) you believe absolutely should(n't) be tried in competition, presence of more than 1 triplat stage in a stage list, or the need for more smaller stages to become more commonly accepted to balance the meta?

At this point in time, I think the following stages might be worth testing (from most likely to stay to least likely to stay):

Battlefield, Final Destination, Pokémon Stadium 1/2, Smashville, Kalos Pokémon League, Lylat Cruise, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Town & City, Unova Pokémon League, Yoshi's Story, WarioWare, Castle Siege.

So basically the Genesis list + WarioWare. I don't have much faith in WarioWare or Castle Siege but it's still early in the meta and we can afford to test them a bit longer. Unova and Yoshi's Story are likely to be considered redundant eventually but might be worth testing. Town & City might have camping issues but so far it hasn't been problematic in tournaments so it can stay. Yoshi's Island (Brawl) might be redundant but we'll see. Lylat Cruise I think should stay legal either way but some people want it banned. I haven't seen many people want the other 5 banned, so they're all probably pretty safe.

Frigate Orpheon and Skyloft are other borderline stages that seem pretty bad now that we've tested them, especially Skyloft.

On Fountain of Dreams: It's laggy, it's pretty noticeable if both players shield at the same time, and this applies to Omega and Battlefield versions as well.

On Dream Land 64: It's really similar to Battlefield now, especially with the ceiling. If any Battlefield-like stage should be legal, it'd be Yoshi's Story, but it's probably too similar to Battlefield. Could still be tested to make sure (and it will be tested on Genesis, that's pretty cool).

 

[Vapor_exe]

I wish there was a way to remove the water reflection on FoD. Also, I find weird that in Melee, FoD is legal even with the water reflection, but not here.

and no kirby stage

 

[Munomario777]

fountain doesn't lag in melee (in 1v1), so it's legal

 

[Vapor_exe]

fountain doesn't lag in melee (in 1v1), so it's legal

Why doesn't it lag in Melee, but lags in Ultimate

 

[Munomario777]

ultimate is more graphically intensive overall

 

[Untouch]

I don't think graphics or the reflection has anything to do with it, I think it has something to do with the particles you charge an attack in the water.

 

[Vapor_exe]

Maybe in an upcoming patch, this will be fixed, but I think that Dreamland 64 should legal, or a counterpick to Battlefield

 

[Tesh]

Assuming bugs were fixed, why do people want several version of battlefield legal but not several versions of FD? Can only tout slightly different spacing on a BF tri-plat so many times. Dreamland's defining feature is an RNG annoyance from the wind blowing.

If Nintendo realistically fixed the menu design so we could play hazards on and off in the same ruleset, do you guys think SV/TC would be used hazards back on?

 

[Manonymous]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

YES

HOPE IS RESTORED

Well, I'm glad there are more stages legal, but please, we have 103 stages, can we have more legal stages like Orpheon's Fregate, Rainbow Cruise, WuHu Island, Skyloft, Warioware and Dracula's Castle ?

 

[Vapor_exe]

Assuming bugs were fixed, why do people want several version of battlefield legal but not several versions of FD? Can only tout slightly different spacing on a BF tri-plat so many times. Dreamland's defining feature is an RNG annoyance from the wind blowing.

If Nintendo realistically fixed the menu design so we could play hazards on and off in the same ruleset, do you guys think SV/TC would be used hazards back on?

Dreamland is a stage that is special to Smash, it's the only stage N64 stage that could be legal, and that wind can/doesn't help at times, also the looks of it, the pixels and Whispy Woods at the background, looking at the fighters beating each other up.
https://youtu.be/NGDImi8RpEI look at it go

 

[Tesh]

Well, I'm glad there are more stages legal, but please, we have 103 stages, can we have more legal stages like Orpheon's Fregate, Rainbow Cruise, WuHu Island, Skyloft, Warioware and Dracula's Castle ?

People have some issues with walls on stage (FO, RC, DC), semi-soft sharkable stages (Wuhu, Skyloft), and the blast zones on WW.

Dreamland is a stage that is special to Smash, it's the only stage N64 stage that could be legal, and that wind can/doesn't help at times, also the looks of it, the pixels and Whispy Woods at the background, looking at the fighters beating each other up.
https://youtu.be/NGDImi8RpEI look at it go

If the aesthetics matter, you could just do the BF version of whatever stage you like.

 

[Storm0943]

I going to test out Rainbow Cruise/Ride first to see if it could be legal, and Pictochat 2 could also use some testing.

Rainbow Cruise has its problem, with the right side of the ship having a wall, which can lead to some combos, giving an unfair advantage to the opponent.

Well, I'm glad there are more stages legal, but please, we have 103 stages, can we have more legal stages like Orpheon's Fregate, Rainbow Cruise, WuHu Island, Skyloft, Warioware and Dracula's Castle ?

Frigate Orpheon has potential to be legal. Like I stated with Rainbow Cruise, it shouldn't be legal. Wuhu Island can end up being legal, only problem being the ledges. Skyloft yes, Warioware no, due to the blastzones. And Dracula's Castle I believe can't be legal, because of those wall like stuff on both sides, and then you have the stairs.
Of course, all stages can be legal if they are in Omega/BF form.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

Frigate Orpheon and Skyloft are other borderline stages that seem pretty bad now that we've tested them, especially Skyloft.

I can easily see how FO didn't turn out good after testing, but what led Skyloft to be viewed as unviable? I honestly haven't seen any tourney matches played their yet, so I don't have the exposure.