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Meta SSBU Stagelist Discussion

Julian Olson

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 28, 2018
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3
Imma TO. Imma do it.
We are a small group though.

Seriously though. With hazzards off. There really are very few non viable stages.

Hell. We just play with hazzards off and do random. The only time a stage feels "unfair" with hazzards off is when you get a scroller and one of the players has a slow run speed.


.... I would love a stage strike option similar to what ProjectM did in a future patch though.
Just give each player a certain amount of "strikes" and each player has a set amount of time (30 seconds or so) to manually strike the stages they want struck, and when time is up, match starts on random picking from only the unstruck stages.

The "struck" stages would stay struck between each match as long as the player profiles remain the same.
 
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Vapor_exe

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 3, 2018
Messages
30
Imma TO. Imma do it.
We are a small group though.

Seriously though. With hazzards off. There really are very few non viable stages.

Hell. We just play with hazzards off and do random. The only time a stage feels "unfair" with hazzards off is when you get a scroller and one of the players has a slow run speed.


.... I would love a stage strike option similar to what ProjectM did in a future patch though.
Just give each player a certain amount of "strikes" and each player has a set amount of time (30 seconds or so) to manually strike the stages they want struck, and when time is up, match starts on random picking from only the unstruck stages.

The "struck" stages would stay struck between each match as long as the player profiles remain the same.
Um, good luck I guess
 

Turk Injaydii

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Imma TO. Imma do it.
We are a small group though.

Seriously though. With hazzards off. There really are very few non viable stages.

Hell. We just play with hazzards off and do random. The only time a stage feels "unfair" with hazzards off is when you get a scroller and one of the players has a slow run speed.


.... I would love a stage strike option similar to what ProjectM did in a future patch though.
Just give each player a certain amount of "strikes" and each player has a set amount of time (30 seconds or so) to manually strike the stages they want struck, and when time is up, match starts on random picking from only the unstruck stages.

The "struck" stages would stay struck between each match as long as the player profiles remain the same.
Competitive level play requires more formality so those who are dedicated to lab out things for every situation CAN do that. However, that becomes virtually impossible if the stage list is outlandishly large. I'll give you props for being open-minded. It's just too much for a competition of serious scale. What you've proposed is great for a side bracket or clowning around with friends. But definitely not good for a tournament of any weight. Something I say as a TO for locals that have ranged anywhere from 10-100 players.
 
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Julian Olson

Smash Rookie
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Dec 28, 2018
Messages
3
Ya. And what of my patch idea?
Imagine a scenario where you went to the stage screen after each match, and each player has X seconds to select their Y stage strikes. When the match starts, it will take you to a random stage that has not been struck, hazards off.
Struck stages would remain struck unless deselected in-between matches, so each players would only have to strike their stages once per match.

This would actually speed up the process and make it more fair IMO. And more entertaining. More variety, more music, more fun.
I imagine some players would refuse to strike any stages to show how big their balls are, and when two of those people meet one another, you would get some crazy, but still 100% fair, match-ups.)

PS:
Variables for time allowed to strike your stages and amount of stage strikes allowed would be customizable and up to discretion of TO.
 
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Turk Injaydii

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Ya. And what of my patch idea?
Imagine a scenario where you went to the stage screen after each match, and each player has X seconds to select their Y stage strikes. When the match starts, it will take you to a random stage that has not been struck, hazards off.
Struck stages would remain struck unless deselected in-between matches, so each players would only have to strike their stages once per match.

This would actually speed up the process and make it more fair IMO. And more entertaining. More variety, more music, more fun.
I imagine some players would refuse to strike any stages to show how big their balls are, and when two of those people meet one another, you would get some crazy, but still 100% fair, match-ups.)

PS:
Variables for time allowed to strike your stages and amount of stage strikes allowed would be customizable and up to discretion of TO.
There was no reason for me to address this one facet of your post because my response applied to all of your post. It's not practical for competition, man. Consequently, it'll never happen.

I will say this, though. I'd rather folks be hella open-minded like this than boring and close-minded as the pop-scicles that whine about Castle Siege and Warioware...

PS, they're pop-scicles because they have sticks up their bums. Lol
 

TheYungLink

Smash Lord
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Aug 29, 2018
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WarioWare was legal in Project M, is there any reason it's being contested in Ultimate? Like are the blast zones adjusted or something?
 

dav3yb

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WarioWare was legal in Project M, is there any reason it's being contested in Ultimate? Like are the blast zones adjusted or something?
All I can assume is the people who played Smash 4 a lot, and got used to the somewhat "standardized" blast zone sides, are now ******** and moaning like little babies about how narrow the blast zones on the stage are.
 

Idon

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WarioWare was legal in Project M, is there any reason it's being contested in Ultimate? Like are the blast zones adjusted or something?
No, they're the same.
I don't recall exactly, but even though it was legal in Project M, its small blastzones made it a point of contention among a large portion of players.
 

Terotrous

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I'm pretty much 100% in agreement with M2K that the small stages are needed to balance out the big stages for the purpose of stage striking. The people saying "we won't go to Genesis because Castle Siege is legal" or "Certain matchups could be atrocious on Castle Siege" have apparently forgotten how striking works, because there is literally never a situation where you can be forced to play on a single stage you don't want to under any ruleset. Yes, maybe you have to "waste" a strike on Castle Siege, but that's there to offset other characters having to "waste" a strike on Pokemon Stadium 2.
 

Frihetsanka

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I think Mew2King has a point about the risk of having large stages, but I don't think the solution is to add bad stages just to get more small stages. I don't think the meta is going to heavily favor projectile characters, and if we make sure the starter list has a good amount of stages that aren't too heavily in favor of projectile characters then that helps quite a bit.

This means that Kalos should not be the 5th starter, instead Lylat should be. That way you can always strike Pokémon Stadium 2 and Final Destination if you're up against a projectile character (assuming those are their best stages).
 

ATH_

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I don't understand the hate against Castle Siege at all. It's small, yes. some stages are small, and we need those for balance. It has a slope? How does that hurt the stage? Because it provides a height advantage? It's so small I'd say it's irrelevant tbh.

I think if anything the slope makes the stage unique from other biplats. I really don't understand the hate, it seems like a great stage.
 

Superyoshiom

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I think my biggest problem with stage selections right now is the absolute refusal to play on any battlefield or omega version of other stages during tourneys. I understand that stages like Dracula’s Castle aren’t the best idea because it’s too dark to see a lot of Snake’s setups, but when even the commentators at smash conference were complaining on people playing vanilla battlefield then there’s a problem.

I’d really like to see the Zelda and Xenoblade stages be played just for the music.
 

MarioManTAW

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I don't understand the hate against Castle Siege at all. It's small, yes. some stages are small, and we need those for balance. It has a slope? How does that hurt the stage? Because it provides a height advantage? It's so small I'd say it's irrelevant tbh.

I think if anything the slope makes the stage unique from other biplats. I really don't understand the hate, it seems like a great stage.
I was initially a bit concerned about the height advantage, but after a closer look, I'm not sure how much of an issue that is. The camera's still problematic, though.
 

ATH_

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I was initially a bit concerned about the height advantage, but after a closer look, I'm not sure how much of an issue that is. The camera's still problematic, though.
I've heard people mention the camera issues, but I've yet to see anything myself while playing? I know the ledge can sometimes be blocked by the foreground part of the ledge, but honestly that seems more like a "difference" than a "fault" to me. Something that makes the stage unique, rather than it being purely a downside.
 

Pizzaguylol

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After testing it at a local, I am for banning WarioWare due to its blast zones. Heavies were smacking people down like nobody's business. I recommend replacing it with Orpheon, as its base stage is the same size as WarioWare's (not counting the moving platform).
 

smoulder

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imo, I really don't think Umbra Clock Tower is worth considering for a legal stage because of how distracting the background is. Half the time, you can't even properly see your character, or your opponents. As well, the background can make it hard to judge where the ledge is, due to the asymmetrical layout at times. There just seems to be to many variables caused by the background.
 

Turk Injaydii

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After testing it at a local, I am for banning WarioWare due to its blast zones. Heavies were smacking people down like nobody's business. I recommend replacing it with Orpheon, as its base stage is the same size as WarioWare's (not counting the moving platform).

It is not reasonable to ban a static, harzardless stage with traditional ledge play and a higher than average ceiling because characters die easily off the sides. If a player knows he is facing a character that can kill easily off the sides, it is the player's responsibility to ban stages that benefit that; especially WW. Polarizing qualities are what make counter picks, well, counter picks. In Melee, floaties love Dreamland because they have excellent recoveries and live twice as long on that stage. In Sm4sh, Pikachu loves Lylat due to the ease of quick-attack cancelling. Give a floaty Dreamland or Pikachu Lylat and you will be fighting a VERY uphill battle. Yet, these stages remained legal in their games; as they should because they serve the purpose of providing counter-play.

These polarizing qualities of stages are countered, however, by the ban system. This is why you will never see Hbox allowed to go to Dreamland in Bo3 sets, and you never see Esam allowed to go to Lylat. Competent players know the strengths afforded to Hbox and Esam on those stages, so they ban them. The same should apply to WW in Ultimate. During a friendly, I have died off the left blastzone as Captain Falcon (tied for 19th heaviest in the game) to a Ganondorf at 74% post-hit after being F-smashed on the right side of the stage. Something that should be expected. Were I in bracket, I would have banned WW against a super-heavyweight such as Ganon, DK, K. Rool, etc.

One may try to argue that bans are not a good argument because then one could simply say, "if the reasoning to allow a stage is 'just ban it if you don't like it' then any stage should be allowed." However, this is not the case. Were the stage in question one with various inconsistencies and nontraditional traits (such as moving platforms that cause walls, hazards, shark'able stage base, transitions, inconsistent ledge grabs, etc), then this argument may apply. But WW is a very calm stage. Nothing ever changes. Everything can be measured and one can always know when he is or is not in danger or advantage. So, if a player goes to WW, every time he knows what he's getting himself into. If the player sees that he's facing an opponent character of lighter or similar weight to his character that kills best off the top, he may feel comfortable leaving WW unbanned because the other character wouldn't benefit from the stage much more than his. If a player is an average or lighter weight character going against a heavy or super-heavy, then it would be in his best interest to ban WW. If the player was unwise and left WW available, then proceeds to die early on WW to a whopping f-smash from a super-heavy.... well, that's on him. As is the case with any bad play made in competition. He made the unintelligent play of leaving WW open and he paid for it.

If you keep WW in the list, this leads competent players facing a slow, heavy character to likely spend a ban on WW and 1 other stage. This means heavies are more likely to have a favorable stage when counter-picking; something that the loser of the last match is SUPPOSED to be afforded. It's his COUNTER-pick, so the stage should FAVOR his character. If WW isn't on the list, that's one less small stage that affords benefits to a style of character in this game that already struggles due to their speed; which means they will often be at the disadvantage when taken to average-wide stages; which is the majority of the stages being considered for competitive play and is something I've clearly mapped out in a previous post. I encourage you to give it a look.

This full-scope of reasoning is what needs to happen when deciding what to ban and permit. Look at EVERY aspect of competitive play. If TOs have tunnel vision and ban simply because blastzones are small (WW complaint), the stage is slanted (CS complaint), the edge is hard for some characters to grab (Lylat complaint), etc...without taking into account bans and the impact a diverse stage list has on the meta, then the stage list will not be as balanced as it should be.

Regarding Frigate Orpheon (FO), it has more debatable variables than WW. FO frequently has a wall because the platform moves so regularly, presents very unbalanced positional advantage when a character is on the moving platform at its lowest point (the character has the advantage of defending from below the opponent, and has the wall for otherwise impossible extensions and setups). The grabable ledge on the main stage is altered when the moving platform connects to it (so if you're coming from below the base's ledge and the platform connects the same moment you go for a grab, you may not get it), and the ledge at its highest point promotes camping (especially against characters with poor jump height). So, given all of the variables, I believe FO is a controversial pick that ultimately should not be used in bracket. And I definitely believe that FO should not be considered if folks want to ban WW, which has less strikes against it viability.
.
imo, I really don't think Umbra Clock Tower is worth considering for a legal stage because of how distracting the background is. Half the time, you can't even properly see your character, or your opponents. As well, the background can make it hard to judge where the ledge is, due to the asymmetrical layout at times. There just seems to be to many variables caused by the background.
This point isn't really worth in-depth discussion. Nobody is seriously considering UCT for competitive play. You don't ever have to worry about seeing this stage in bracket unless you're at an obscure local with a bad TO.
 
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Frihetsanka

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If a player knows he is facing a character that can kill easily off the sides, it is the player's responsibility to ban stages that benefit that; especially WW.
So are you saying that characters should be picked before stages for game 2+? If not, this point doesn't hold.
 

SJMistery

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Sad that Arena Ferox got demoted to unviable. It was my favorite on the 3DS days. Yeah, it has caves of life, but they are TEMPORARY, they won't hold the match forever. And Pokemon Stadium 1 has the exact same issue and nobody complains.
 

Turk Injaydii

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So are you saying that characters should be picked before stages for game 2+? If not, this point doesn't hold.
Every other point made in the post does regardless of this one facet of my very long-winded post. In the event that stage continues to be chosen before character, that point alone loses a bit of weight. However, the full-scope of reasoning i described does not. If the player bans stages leaving WW open, then the opposing player picks WW and picks a heavy character, the ultimate purpose of a counter-pick has been accomplished. The loser of the first match may now have advantage against the winner's first character, but counter-play does not stop after the stage select. In a game with 70+ characters, top players will almost certainly be well-adept with more than 1 character to minimize the effects of counter-play. Consequently, the winning player in the described scenario may now switch to a new character; which is how it's always been.

This is why I stressed that the FULL SCOPE of counter-play used in competition should be considered when making stage decisions, as well as any other rule set decision.
 
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Munomario777

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S SJMistery

A) ferox was only talked about because we thought it was permanently in the statue form (it's not)

B) ferox with hazards on isn't considered because hazards off is the standard

C) people are in fact against hazards-on PS1 for those same reasons
 

Pizzaguylol

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S SJMistery

A) ferox was only talked about because we thought it was permanently in the statue form (it's not)

B) ferox with hazards on isn't considered because hazards off is the standard

C) people are in fact against hazards-on PS1 for those same reasons
Unless they want to do a 1-ruleset-per-stage setup (have done it; works but takes a ton of setup) or we get a proper hazards toggle, I don't see either stage making the cut with hazards on or off.
 

Terotrous

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So are you saying that characters should be picked before stages for game 2+? If not, this point doesn't hold.
I feel like it's fairly obvious that in ult, you strike based on the stage preferences of your character, not your opponent's character, since the opponent's character is unknown until after the stage is chosen.

So the logic would instead be "if you are playing as a character with a good recovery who doesn't especially benefit from small blastzones, ban WW."

It is possible that you may arrive at a stage that's decent for your character, but the opponent pulls out a pocket character who is even better there, but that's just part of the loser advantage on game 2+.
 
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Frihetsanka

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I feel like it's fairly obvious that in ult, you strike based on the stage preferences of your character, not your opponent's character, since the opponent's character is unknown until after the stage is chosen.
Game 1 is still character first, and game 2-5 were stage first in Smash 4 as well.
 

ATH_

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The whole idea of "1 Ruleset per Stage" is neat in concept. It solves the hazards problem, it gives us more stages to work with, and lets us keep more interesting versions of existing stages (Smashville, T&C, maybe even Duck Hunt). And while it sounds very ideal, it's extremely difficult to set up as a TO.

To clarify for anyone who hasn't seen the discussion about this: The idea is to have a ruleset for every legal stage where hazards are set on or off for that stage. The Random Stage Switch has every stage except the desired off, so you can just press random instead of finding the stage. Naming each ruleset "Smashville Starter On" "Fountain of Dreams CP On" "Smashville Starter Off" etc. This is useful for several reasons.

1. Players do not have to memorize a stagelist of 11+ stages. They can simply look at the ruleset and see what Starters and Counterpicks are available, and strike/ban from there.
2. Players do not have to navigate the massive Stage Selection screen. They simply press Random, which skips an entire screen.
3. Between games, they do not hold B to go back to Stages, they simply press the "Go Back to Rules" button in the top left.
4. It allows for mixed Hazards without relying on players to memorize which stages are with or without Hazards.

Having to get a group of people to set up 11-13 rulesets at every single setup is time consuming. And that's assuming a "conservative" list with varying hazards. There could easily be upwards of 15-17 stages with the variance.

I love thinking about mixed hazards, but I seriously think it's not going to be feasible for the average TO at a local. Maybe for large events with huge teams of people willing to help, but even then, there's a chance someone makes a mistake.

But it's worth a shot.


P.S: This would not work in online play, because you cannot change the ruleset of an arena once it is made. It would take too long.
 

Pizzaguylol

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The whole idea of "1 Ruleset per Stage" is neat in concept. It solves the hazards problem, it gives us more stages to work with, and lets us keep more interesting versions of existing stages (Smashville, T&C, maybe even Duck Hunt). And while it sounds very ideal, it's extremely difficult to set up as a TO.

To clarify for anyone who hasn't seen the discussion about this: The idea is to have a ruleset for every legal stage where hazards are set on or off for that stage. The Random Stage Switch has every stage except the desired off, so you can just press random instead of finding the stage. Naming each ruleset "Smashville Starter On" "Fountain of Dreams CP On" "Smashville Starter Off" etc. This is useful for several reasons.

...

Having to get a group of people to set up 11-13 rulesets at every single setup is time consuming. And that's assuming a "conservative" list with varying hazards. There could easily be upwards of 15-17 stages with the variance.
We do this at my locals and it works pretty damn well so far. The biggest problem is that it doesn't let you copy rulesets, change the stage, and copy one, repeat. Or better yet, a hazards toggle.
 

Vapor_exe

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I think Pictochat 2 should be legal because the ceiling is high and the stage itself is at the bottom, making it easier for characters who have bad recovers to make it on stage much more easier
 
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Tesh

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Has "cave of life" ever proven to actually be not okay? I always felt that cave of life automatically = there is also circle camping anyway so who cares (looking at icicle mountain and spear pillar. But, there is actually a stage now with a techable structure that you can't circle around (the BoTW stage). The game also apparently stops people from teching at high velocities anyway. I'm wondering the same about stages with small walls like Frigate, Rainbow Cruise and Dracula's Castle.

I don't expect anyone to accept a stage like that being legal. I just think its worth noting that even if you can prove a stage isn't unfair, it could and maybe should stay off just because most people don't like it.
 

ATH_

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Has "cave of life" ever proven to actually be not okay? I always felt that cave of life automatically = there is also circle camping anyway so who cares (looking at icicle mountain and spear pillar. But, there is actually a stage now with a techable structure that you can't circle around (the BoTW stage). The game also apparently stops people from teching at high velocities anyway. I'm wondering the same about stages with small walls like Frigate, Rainbow Cruise and Dracula's Castle.

I don't expect anyone to accept a stage like that being legal. I just think its worth noting that even if you can prove a stage isn't unfair, it could and maybe should stay off just because most people don't like it.
So there's a huge difference between "cave of life" and a wall on a stage.

A cave of life is specifically a platform that can't be passed through above the stage's terrain, providing an area where you can be bounced around and combo'd or you can live extensively by teching into it. It also provides circle camping possibilities of course.

A wall is on the subjective end of bad or okay. As in, in melee it spells unbalanced chain-grabbing and infinite combos (see Pokemon Stadium). But we don't know how bad a wall is in Ultimate, and we won't know until a strategy is found using it.

In my opinion, Rainbow Cruise/Dracula's Castle are poor stages for reasons that aren't the wall. But Frigate Orpheon is a fine stage that, even if an infinite was found with the wall, is dynamic and moves preventing said "infinite combos" from going on for more than a few seconds.

I don't know exactly how long the platform stays down, I'd estimate about 15 seconds from memory, but either way people know not to approach the wall and there's practically a stigma around getting near the wall. Play smart and you won't get infinite combo'd. This is all assuming said combos exist.
 
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ATH_

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So you can kill on Yoshi's Story off the top at really low percent... I guess that means it should be banned right?

https://youtu.be/AMOVo_eTwAU?t=209

I wonder how many people will actually think this.
To people who believe this is sufficient proof it should be banned: Not a true combo, and this happens on lots of stages. If you get hit at the top of a stage with a strong move when they have rage that usually means death.
 
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dav3yb

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Not a true combo, and this happens on lots of stages? If you get hit at the top of a stage with a strong move when they have rage that usually means death.
... yes... i know... i was just applying the same logic some people are applying to wario ware.
 

ATH_

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... yes... i know... i was just applying the same logic some people are applying to wario ware.
Yeah, sorry. I didn't mean to come off like I was debating you specifically, more or less bringing the exact points why those people are wrong (at least in my opinion). I edited my original response.
 
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Akiak

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Kinda forgot about this thread but good to see where the discussion is going.

The new G6 list is indeed pretty balanced although I do think Warioware is an essential stage for a variety of reasons.

The problem however is that it might be too polarising for certain characters who kill easily off the sides (and prefer less space to move around). This could include the likes of MK, ROB, Ness, Incineroar, Ganon, Ridley, heavies in general, etc.

Turk Injaydii Turk Injaydii unfortunately the issue with WW & picking stage-before-char is that, if the stage truly is that good for the aforementioned characters, then the correct course of action would be to always ban WW, since you have no information on who your opponent might pick. Obviously it's not that simple, but this mostly holds true, and means that as a result WW will be seen extremely rarely.

Now it might be that we're overestimating this and that WW favours characters pretty similarly to how other legal stages favour different characters, but personally I'm a bit doubtful of that.

As such I do think that char-first would probably be necessary, but at the same time I really don't see any reason not to use it. It's by-and-large a better system, since it makes the CP advantage consistent across every game2+ scenario, instead of depending on outside factors such as knowledge of your opponent's characters (among other things). Muno's post in the ruleset discussion thread explains this really well.

The only potential drawback I can think of would be the additional "burden" of having to state your characters to each other without using the CSS (since Ultimate is stage-first) which would theoretically require a third party to be present to avoid cheating (I think?).

That aside though, it seems that stage-first is being used purely for tradition's sake, which, let's face it, really doesn't mean anything at all. Ultimate is a new game with a ton of new variables, and the playerbase is young and open-minded. There's really nothing sacred about the rules we've used up to now, and if it's appropriate to change them at any point then they absolutely should be changed.

Now back to the G6 ruleset, I'd be perfectly happy with either adding WW, or replacing CS with it. I also think TnC has some things going against it, so it could be banned in the future if necessary.

Every other stage though has absolutely no business at all being banned as far as I'm concerned.
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
9,737
Location
TX
If you were to make a ruleset with only 1 BF style triplat, which one would it be? Likewise with monoplats (SV vs Yoshis) and duplats (all the pokemon stages).

I feel like in an expanded stagelist, redundancy is an issue.
 

Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
2,238
Location
Sweden
If you were to make a ruleset with only 1 BF style triplat, which one would it be? Likewise with monoplats (SV vs Yoshis) and duplats (all the pokemon stages).
Battlefield, Smashville, and Pokémon Stadium 2.
 

Munomario777

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Messages
3,253
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Charleston, South Carolina
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0387-9596-4480
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yeah, stage-first really holds a lot of stages back :/

I’ve been using char first in my tourneys along with pXp1 and it’s been working quite well! if only it had any chance of catching on large-scale lol
 

ParanoidDrone

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
4,335
Location
Baton Rouge, LA
It's deeply ironic that this stage-first vs. char-first discussion is happening in the first game that actually presents the stage select screen before the character select screen.
 
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