Squirtle Tactical Discussion

[Steeler]

press up on the control stick or a jump button while you are trying to break out

and you can't break away during a pummel, else it's a ground break

squirtle can't force ground breaks because his pummel doesn't "combo" into itself, but i believe it comes close. so that's why you usually don't see air breaks.

 

[Ryusuta]

Interesting. It's the first time I remember it happening to me, so I guess it's not something to be especially worried about.

Tell me though... do they have to press just at the exact MOMENT they break, or can they just hold up on the analog stick as they mash out?

 

[Steeler]

you can press jump any time you are in a grab and you should air break if you don't break during a pummel.

 

[Asa]

How many people use the hydrograb? Is it all that effective? I find that when I do it I always go flying past my opponent.

And if one is doing grab release ->jab->trip->re-grab, how many times should one repeat this? What I'm asking is, is it pushing one's luck to do it more than once? Or are the rewards worth the risk?

 

[Steeler]

hydrograb is really good, just learn the spacing and timing for it.

i don't think the second jab has even a decent trip rate. i don't bother with it. if you have godly reflexes and can respond to the visual/auditory cues, then cool. but it isn't really worth the risk of doing a second round of damage with pummels + two jabs for you to get grabbed or something.

 

[Magik0722]

even with instant reflexes, you cannot get the third hit off as all jabs are frame traps and even 1 frame off allows a powershield

 

[TheReflexWonder]

even with instant reflexes--

YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Now that I'm past a silly reference, I believe the idea behind these jabs is that you cannot buffer a move while in jab hitstun if the jab has set hitstun/knockback. So, the opponent must time their shield well to block the jab.

 

[T-block]

Something I haven't seen mentioned: d-throw mixups.

Everyone knows d-throw doesn't kill until around 130% on most opponents if they have good DI, but you can condition some people to struggle with Squirtle's ground release. If you notice they struggle with the control stick, as most people do, I toss out d-throw at like 90% if we're near the edge. If they're rotating the control stick, there's only like a quarter of the control stick's circle that would result in good DI by the opponent.

It's lulz on Ness and Lucas, since they're basically forced to attempt to break out in order to minimize the damage from the grab release chain. If they're at around 100% I usually d-throw at the second last grab in the chain (ie- I could fit in one more grab release to be at the edge of the stage). If they do end up being sent out horizontally, even if they don't die they're in vulnerable position for gimping.

I have a replay saved where I get d-throw kill at 60% and 80% I think.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Something I haven't seen mentioned: d-throw mixups.

Everyone knows d-throw doesn't kill until around 130% on most opponents if they have good DI, but you can condition some people to struggle with Squirtle's ground release. If you notice they struggle with the control stick, as most people do, I toss out d-throw at like 90% if we're near the edge. If they're rotating the control stick, there's only like a quarter of the control stick's circle that would result in good DI by the opponent.

It's lulz on Ness and Lucas, since they're basically forced to attempt to break out in order to minimize the damage from the grab release chain. If they're at around 100% I usually d-throw at the second last grab in the chain (ie- I could fit in one more grab release to be at the edge of the stage). If they do end up being sent out horizontally, even if they don't die they're in vulnerable position for gimping.

I have a replay saved where I get d-throw kill at 60% and 80% I think.

Squirtle has a grab-release chaingrab on Ness and Lucas?

 

[Steeler]

i doubt it, squirtle's dash grab comes out on frame 8. so it's quick enough to get to ness in that 10 frame window but i don't think you have the range for it.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

Doesn't Squirtle have a longer grab than Marth?

 

[Steeler]

it's slightly bigger

but ness slides further away cuz he's lower to the ground or some bull**** like that

 

[T-block]

Might not be guaranteed on Ness, but I'm pretty sure Lucas can't get out of it.

 

[Steeler]

but doesn't lucas slides further than ness?

 

[T-block]

I have no idea...I don't have as much experience against Ness as I do against Lucas, but Lucas is definitely guaranteed. I CP Castle Siege against him all the time and force him to camp the platforms

 

[Miles.]

Squirtle has a grab-release chaingrab on Ness and Lucas?

Yes AD was the one who showed me. You just pummel until they ground break and then just barely walk foward and regrab. EASY!

 

[Steeler]

well ness is now pt's easiest matchup by far

 

[Ryusuta]

Yes AD was the one who showed me. You just pummel until they ground break and then just barely walk foward and regrab. EASY!

Well, can't Ness go for an air break, in that case?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well, can't Ness go for an air break, in that case?

As long as you're constantly pummeling, no.

 

[Steeler]

squirtle's pummel doesn't force ground breaks though, only zard's does. i think squirtle's comes close to doing so, but it's still possible to jump break.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

squirtle's pummel doesn't force ground breaks though, only zard's does. i think squirtle's comes close to doing so, but it's still possible to jump break.

Ah, I see...well, whatever; I've never had trouble getting it to happen, so until someone perfects it, it should be okay.

 

[NintenJoe]

well ness is now pt's easiest matchup by far

crying face. Now I have to watch out for PT too.

 

[Steeler]

yeah, i mean it's difficult to time a break in between squirtle's pummel so we are fine.

 

[Ryusuta]

Any idea how many frames' leeway they have to break in-between pummels?

 

[Zigsta]

Does Squirtle have any characters he can 100% of the time get grab release to jab combos on, or is everyone able to shield the jabs with proper timing?

 

[Ryusuta]

Does Squirtle have any characters he can 100% of the time get grab release to jab combos on, or is everyone able to shield the jabs with proper timing?

The only characters I've seen that can't be jabbed on combo release were Luigi and Sonic. MAYBE Ike.

 

[Steeler]

ike definitely can't be jabbed.

technically everyone can shield the jab but there's a 1 frame window to do it, iirc.

 

[Zigsta]

technically everyone can shield the jab but there's a 1 frame window to do it, iirc.

That makes sense. I was wondering why the grab release to jab isn't always reliable.

 

[Steeler]

i think i confused myself

if they are in range for the jab, they will always be hit by it if you time it right. however, some characters slide too far. luigi, ike, etc.

however, it is possible to shield the second jab.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Hey guys... i think i found out something pretty useful:
If you aim water gun up when trying to gimp someone, the chances of gimping are higer... because the water pushes them to where the final shot (the one with the mor epushback) is gonna be, so they end up farther than if they would have benn hit by a normal water gun.... i have performed some gimps i shouldnt have done with the unangled version of water gun this way...
maybe its already known... but bringing this is helpfull cause i think there are a lot of PT players that dont angle water gun/dont know they can
So.. aim up water gun when you are gonna gimp and you will see the results :D

 

[Ryusuta]

Most Squirtle players actually do that already. But you're right, it'll push them farther.

 

[Steeler]

do you mean immediately angling the water gun up as soon as you release it, kinda like you should do with zard flamethrower to catch people trying to jump over it?

 

[dre_89_]

When you're gimping with WG, do you jump off the stage to do it and try and try to hit them before they start jumping back, or are you supposed to wait on the stage and WG when they're coming back. The first one seemed like the better option to me because it has a better pushback when their momentum isn't towards you but i just wnated to be sure.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

@Steeler: Yup, just angle it up when squirtle starts throwing water from who knows where.. you will see the results
@dre_89: Normally i just wait on the stage, that way is safer

 

[T-block]

I totally did not know that =o

My opponents tend to recover low lol... thanks cris

 

[WaywardLuca]

I use shellshifting to fake an approach a lot, you can catch someone off guard just by running at them, switching directions, then coming straight back in. It's an easy way to get a dash attack, grab, or even an Up or Down smash in. And fastfalling is amazing.

 

[Tien2500]

So here's a bit of random, most likely pointless, information that I discovered. I was playing as ZSS against a noobish trainer who actually spammed withdraw against me. I used ZSS' dsmash and surprisingly it actually did work against him (while withdrawing_. It didn't do any damage but it did paralyze.

Probably not very useful but whatever.

 

[dre_89_]

I was wondering if anyone uses uncharged watergun. I know it's slower than most of his moves, but against a shieldgrab happy opponent could you SH then use uncharged WG just infront of them so the lingering water could prevent a grab?

Also, does uncharged WG punish spotdodgers?

 

[T-block]

I use it for lulz once in a while...it'll probably punish spot-dodgers, but they could probably just keep their shield up until the attack is done and then shield grab you.