Squirtle Tactical Discussion

[T-block]

hydrograb is by far the most important out of those, so focus most of your efforts on that

 

[Tesh]

I never learned Dsmash or Fsmash. I think those moves both suck too much to really use at all. Between the upsmash, jabs and the grab, you can mix up punishing on shields and spotdodges and they are all more rewarding anyway.

 

[Myollnir]

I've learned every single AT. Including hydrostalling, squirtlesliding and every single technique that seems to be useless.

 

[T-block]

do you ever use hydrostalling?

i think it has potential (hydrograb out of stall in particular), but i never fleshed it out.

 

[Myollnir]

Actually, I only use it when I randomly remember I can do it in the middle of a match

Also, I like feinting an Hydroplanned USmash / Hydrograb / Whatever and just jump after my pivot (and I often use a Fair after that), or simply using Dash Attack when my pivot animation is finished. People often expect an USmash or a Grab.

 

[CoonTail]

I have been watching a lot of Earth's videos lately since I wanted to see him vs Karamity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkJ1OCj-04g

At 40 seconds I saw Earth do something very simply, but really effective. He jumped out of crouch while ducking lasers and I personally have never really thought what to do in the Falco MU when I was ducking lasers.

This may not be a major find but it allows us to look for those low % combo string while staying safe.

At 0% against falco after seeing these vids I started landing some very nice combos. After jumping out of crouch I managed to land
F-air -> grab -> F-throw -> F-air followup
Air-dodge (clearly to dodge a laser) -> Grab -> F-throw -> F-throw -> F-air
Air-dodge (clearly to dodge a laser) -> Grab -> F-throw -> Grab(Pummel till ground release -> F-tilt -> Jab combo

I also believe I was able to F-air -> U-tilt x3-5 -> U-air x2-3 /F-air -> U-tilt x3-5 -> U-air x2 -> D-air

All of these basically managed to push falco offstage and give me stage control. I think we have something here guys, anyone else ever mess around with this?


I can list more but these were the heaviest damage racking ones

 

[Tesh]

I always jump air dodge out of a crouch when dealing with lasers, but i never really used it as a way to get in. I guess you have to time it right, but you could always just shield while crouching then jump if u need to.

 

[Myollnir]

That's nice, CoonTail

I don't really know what to do while ducking lasers. I know that we can FTilt and DashAttack while remaining safe (at least we won't be hit by them). I believe our pivot animation also protect us from the lasers.

I think by mixing up all the options, we should be able to find a nice approach. I have to think about it and do some testings.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Do we have a list of the various distances characters get grab-released, like, "Close; has to work really hard to SDI out of Jab," "Medium; can easily SDI out of Jab," and "Far; can't get jab combo'd out of it"?

I think I might do that in the next day or two.

 

[Myollnir]

I don't think such a list exists. If you want to do it, I can help you.

Don't forget that if a character's'feet don't touch the ground, they can DI a bit.

I am also interested in our air release options, I don't see why we couldn't RAR + aerial.

 

[T-block]

you mean SHELLSLING =P

i was under the impression that even characters who release relatively close can still easily SDI out of the jab combo

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well, it's still relatively easy, due to how much hitlag the move has, but, some people don't quarter-circle it, etc. There are still varying degrees of ease.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Squirtle's non-moving crouch appears to go under:

Peach's standing and running grabs (as long as her body isn't overlapping ours when the grab attempt happens)
Ganondorf's standing and pivot grabs
All of Zero Suit Samus' grabs (except for the very tip)
Marth's standing grab (unless he's all up in our space; if his hand touches the little arrow underneath Squirtle's tag, he lands the grab)
Ike's standing and running grabs (unless he's all up in our space; if his hand touches the little arrow underneath Squirtle's tag, he lands the grab)
Snake's standing grab (unless he's all up in our space; if his arms touch the little arrow underneath Squirtle's tag, he lands the grab)

Fairly useful information. Crouching can protect us a little from certain characters' standing grabs. Not as much to worry about from Peach or Zero Suit Samus, either.

EDIT: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=322511

 

[GuruKid]

Squirtle's Nair hitbox animation and Frame Data, as requested by Reflex some time ago:
(Note: ignore the floating yellow rectangle during his Shell withdrawal; it's a known bug from Brawlbox and is not an accurate hurtbox)

Squirtle's hurtbox is in yellow.
Hitbox is the blue circle.
Squirtle's nair uses the Sakurai Angle.
Left GIF is at approximately 1/3 game speed.
Due to Brawlbox limitations, hitbox interpolation ("dragging") are not shown; however, they do so in-game.

Neutral Air

Total: 57
Hit: 4-32 (initial hit turns into smaller/weaker lingering hit frame 8)
Auto Cancel: <4 35>
Landlag: 12
IASA: 49​

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wow, it stays out all that time? Dedede's stupid spotdodge and Shaya's frame data had me thinking the hitbox would stop and go multiple times. Awesome; thanks for that.

 

[GuruKid]

The initial hit and lingering hit are one and the same hitbox. Most "sex kick" aerials share this trait; there is an initial stronger (sometimes larger) hit in the beginning frames, and the same hitbox weakens (sometimes shrinks) in knockback later in the animation. However they do not stop and go (if that were the case nair would be a multi-hit move); once the move connects (either as an actual hit or shielded) the hitbox cannot connect again for the rest of the animation.

Briefly looking at Shaya's frame data thread while on PSA and Frame Advance I spot a few inaccuracies; I'll get to posting some corrections on that thread in a few days.

 

[CoonTail]

Wow so n-air is a frame 4 aerial?

 

[T-block]

we always knew it hit on frame 4 =P

i started some PSA frame data mining, gurukid, but i got kinda lazy. the data shaya presented is defs not the best way to present it though for sure.

 

[CoonTail]

Lol I guess i missed that memo T!

 

[GuruKid]

Frame data for a few more moves as requested by Reflex.

Squirtle's hurtboxes are in yellow.
Blue/Green circles are hitbubbles (hitboxes). Fuchsia circles are grabs.
Left GIF's are at approximately 1/3 game speed.
Due to Brawlbox limitations, hitbox interpolation ("dragging") are not shown; however, they do so in-game.

Standing Grab

Note: Arm hurtboxes don't show in certain frames due to a known BrawlBox bug, but they are indeed present through the entire animation.
Total: 34
Grabs: 6-7
IASA: 30​

Down Air

Total: 56
Hits: 6-7, 9-10, 12-13, 15-16, 18-19, 23
Auto Cancel: <6 44>
Landlag: 19
IASA: 51
SDI-ability of first 5 hits are 30% normal potency.
SDI-ability of final hit is 20% normal potency.
Final hit inflicts double the normal hitlag on both characters.​

Down Smash

Total: 52
Charge Frame: 8
Hit: 10-22
The two inner hitboxes can only hit grounded targets​

 

[Myollnir]

Random things with Squirtle!

Squirtle is my favorite Pokémon out of the three, so I have some things I want to share.

Ledge :

Squirtle has many interesting options when he's on the ledge. I'll try to cover as much as I can. Many of them are stage-specific.

General :

- The final hit of UpB (waterfall) has a huge hitbox. If go far enough from the ledge and UpB so you grab the ledge after the final hit, it'll create a hitbox on the stage (similar to Marth's UpB iirc) so it can help if the opponent isn't careful. Or you can simply UpB and press down so you don't grab the ledge and direcly attack your opponent when is onstage (from the ledge, or when you recover). But it won't work if he's careful.

- U-air is really really fast, so if you press away from the ledge and immediatly U-air the U-air will be invincible and it'll cover you from an overagressive opponent. I often do this because U-air is so fast that even if you don't hit with the U-air, you'll not be in a bad position.

- Ledgedrop + U-air + DJ + U-air + F-air. Don't move horizontally, the F-air will make you land on the stage. Useful if you have the RCO lag.

- Ledgedrop + U-air + DJ + N-air. Quite similar. N-air is really fast so you can use it to recover. This option isn't among the best, but it can be useful because if you always go back to the stage with the same method, you'll get destroyed. D:

- Ledgehop + airdodge / ledgedrop + U-air + DJ + Airdodge. A classic. Be careful about your RCO lag.

- Ledgehop + any aerial (+ airdodge). Pretty self-explanatory.

- Ledgedrop + neutralB. Watergun has a somewhat great range (at least for Squirtle) and can surprise since it's a multi-hit.

- Ledgehop + sideB. It'll surprise your opponent, but don't use it twice!

- Ledgedrop + U-air + DJ + wavebounced Watergun + airdodge + buffer something (shield/jab/grab/spotdodge/etc)

Stage-specific :

Yoshi's Island : Brawl
-> Ledgedrop + DJ + F-air. The Squirtleslide! You'll need some practice to do it consistently. If you use well your iFrames, you'll be invincible for the first half of the slide.

-> Wall-cling (don't wall jump) + DJ + Bair. A shorter version of the Squirtleslide.

Smashville
-> Ledgejump + platform cancel etc... Really difficult with Squirtle, so be careful.

Pokémon Stadium 1
-> Ledgedrop + DJ. Don't move horizontally. If done correctly your DJ will be cancelled and you'll have another DJ. You can do this and use an U-air immediatly after cancelling your DJ, then cancel your DJ again, U-air, etc... Also work on Lylat Cruise and Frigate Orpheon (different timings).

BattleField
My favorite stage when it comes to Squirtle ledge options!
-> Ledgehop + SideB. When done correctly, you'll land on the platform of BF! For instance, when you're hanging on the left edge, press left (softly) then immediatly jump + right (and keep pressing right) and B. If you use well your iFrames, you'll be invincible during the startup, then you'll be on the platform (so you won't be grabbed/footstooled). A very solid option overall.

-> Ledgedrop + UpB. When done correctly, you'll land on the platform. It has a huge hitbox and will hit your opponent very often and is somewhat safe because you won't have many frames of lag since you land on the platform. Can be quite useful imo.

-> Ledgehop + U-air + any aerial/airdodge. You can land on the platform as well. Don't use the C-stick if you want to D-air. Press down (just a bit) and A. The first hit of D-air will connect if the opponent is just below you.

-> Ledgedrop + U-air + walljump + b-reversal + airdodge + buffer something.
One of my personal favorites. ^_^
You can also trick your opponent by simply using the uncharged watergun.

-> Ledgedrop + U-air + walljump + sideB. A bit more surprising than without the walljump, but still, don't use this often!

-> Ledgedrop + walljump + B-air + ledgegrab/B-air. The second B-air will help you to land on the stage so it can surprise your opponent.

There are plenty of other options! For instance, you can charge your watergun to three-quarters so when you do the b-reversal thing (with or without the ledgejump), you can do an aerial! Just be creative! ^_^

I'll edit this post tomorrow with other tricks/tips.

Mobility :

On BF, you can autocancel your FH Double U-air below a platform (so you land on it) by buffering the U-air out of your jump (same method as I posted on Charizard's thread). At low % and/or fatigued, this + U-tilt + U-tilt/U-air etc... is really good.

When in the air, as you know, you can cancel the charge part of the watergun with an airdodge. What I like to do when above a platform is to buffer a shield platform drop-through right after the airdodge.
Or, when grounded, you can immediatly shield platform drop-through.
Between this and the B-reversals, it'll increase your mobility.

Hold A and do an hydrojab. Hydropivotwalk ftw!

If you're on YI and jump towards the edge of the stage (to land on the slope) then crawl backwards (crawl dash) you'll get a pretty good slide.

Combos :
Note:
Bair1 = You hit with Squirtle's Tail
Bair2 = You hit with Squirtle's Head
Fair/Nair1 = Sweetspot
Fair/Nair2 = Sourspot

The % are very approximative lol. Try the combos by yourself! Most of them are true, but you'll see which ones aren't if you try them. All of them usually work.

It's like : low% = 0-15%
Low-mid% = 15-40%
Mid% = 40-60%
On MK, training mode.

Obviously, the combos will be even better with a fatigued Squirtle.

You have to hit right before landing.

Due to its lingering hitbox, dash attack works better than dashgrab and is safer.

If it's possible, always grab instead of doing a jab/f-tilt. You can ground release to Jab anyway.

Nair1/Fair1 + Grab (low%). Fair + U-throw is my favorite combo, dealing 24% and setting up a juggle.
Nair2/Fair2 + Grab (mid%)

Bair1 + Turnaround Grab (low-mid%)
Bair1 + Turnaround F-tilt up (mid%)
Bair1 + Turnaround Jab (mid%)
Bair1 + Turnaround Dashgrab (mid%)
Bair1 + Turnaround Dash attack (mid%)

Bair2 + Grab (low%)
Bair2 + Jab (mid%)
Bair2 + F-tilt up (mid%)
Bair2 + Dashgrab (mid%)
Bair2 + Dash attack (mid%)

F-tilt + Jab (low%)
F-tilt + Grab (low%)
F-tilt + Dash attack (mid%)
F-tilt + Dashgrab (mid%)
F-tilt + Hydroplanned U-Smash (high%)

The U-Tilt and U-air combos are not really difficult to find so it's not useful to post them.

Miscellaneous :

You can N-air after a SH B-air. That's the only aerial you can do after it. Useful at low % when you want to follow-up.

You can F-smash (angled up) or U-Smash after air releasing Wario. Works better after an hydrograb if you slide until the edge because the air release will be guaranteed.

When jab locking at low %, you can F-tilt + dash (immediatly return the joystick to neutral) + jab1. You can then Jab2 to continue the lock in the other direction. I think you can't change the direction of the lock with proper SDI.

Hitting through platforms with D-air :

Same thing than for Charizard.

Here's the list.

Weak hit = one of the first hits.
Two hits = the first and second hitboxes of the D-air will connect during the same move.

Character| Weak hit | Hits when crouching | Last hit | Hits when crouching | Two hits
| No | No | No | No | No
| No | No | Yes | No | No
| No | No | Yes | No | No
| No | No | Yes | No | No
| Yes | No | Yes | No | Yes
| Yes | No | Yes | Yes | Yes
| Yes | No | Yes | No | Yes
| No| No | No | No | No
| Yes | No | Yes | Yes | No
| Yes | No | Yes | No | Yes
| Yes | No | Yes | No | No
| Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes
| No | No | Yes | No | No
| Yes | No | Yes | No | No
| No | No | Yes | No | No
| Yes | No | Yes | No | No
| Yes | No | Yes | No | Yes
| Yes | No | Yes | No | Yes
| Yes | No | Yes | No | Yes
| No | No | Yes | No | No
| Yes | No | Yes | No | No
| Yes | No | Yes | Yes | Yes
| Yes | No | Yes | No | Yes
| Yes | No | Yes | No | Yes
| Yes | No | Yes | No | No
| No | No | Yes | No | No
| No | No | Yes | No | No
| No | No | Yes | No | No
| Yes | No | Yes | Yes | Yes
| Yes | No | Yes | No | No
| No | No | Yes | No | No
| Yes | No | Yes | No | No
| Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes
* | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes
| Yes | No | Yes | No | Yes
| No | No | No | No | No
| Yes | No | Yes | No | Yes
| Yes | No | Yes | No | Yes
** | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes

* : You can D-Tilt Bowser.

** : On Ganon, you can land : D-tilt, Watergun, D-Smash, F-Smash (down), F-tilt (down) and U-Smash.

 

[vegeta18]

anyone else think i separate squirtle combo thread would be a cool idea? Everyone just lists combos and attack strings and how they work. Similar to a lot of the stuff posted in here, but a big list with all the combos put together and this thread be more about the actual strategy while playing squirtle.

A nice big list of combos that work at certain percents, character specific, or general combos that work against anyone. It seems squirtle has the most combos like this.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

A lot of them are DI-dependent and vary based on character. Also, they're all pretty straightforward, so saying "late B-Air -> X," late B-Air -> Y", and the like would be tedious. Many of them are "specific move, then follow up with Jab/F-Tilt/grab," or "use the same move repeatedly. He doesn't actually have much of a varied list of strings or combos.

 

[W.C.N]

Is there a chart for how long we can Utilt chars?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

No, mostly because SDI should prevent more than three U-Tilts to begin with. Get used to going into U-Air quickly.

 

[Tesh]

yea, just watch closely and once you see them starting to get away, switch to an aerial butt kicking

uair does damage twice as fast and you are likely to get 2-3 of those before they get too far away at low percents so dont get too greedy with a 6 damage uptilt

 

[W.C.N]

that my usual plan just wondering if the weight/size made some last longer then others

 

[Tesh]

well yea, someone heavy and wide is going to stay in range longer, like DDD or DK