Squirtle Tactical Discussion

[CoonTail]

I can't think of a situation for uncharged Water Gun where I wouldn't rather use d-air.

Firstly, if you're facing the opponent you can't bair.

Secondly, it covers a larger area than bair and is disjointed, meaning it will probably beat out non disjointed well spaced aerials.

Sorry to be the quote Nazi, but T-block said D-AIR not B-AIR Dre and I have to agree with T here. If they are close enough to get hit by an uncharged water-gun then they are close enough to be hit by d-air. D-air as far as I can tell is extremely hard to SDI and almost always sends your opponent offstage. D-air just does everything better than uncharged water-gun.

As far as I see the only time I could imagine uncharged water-gun being good is as a once in a blue mix-up or as a B-reverse out of the air in order to stuff a short range attack. That way if they manage to SDI it at least being in the air MAY keep them from punishing you.

Personally after 2008 I have used un-charged watergun ever........

 

[TheReflexWonder]

D-Air has either a 0.25x or 0x hitlag multiplier, I forget which. Basically, though, it's unSDIable.

 

[CoonTail]

^ Thanks Luis I figured as much since I've never seen anyone get out of a D-air unless I pulled the attack to far left or right allowing them to escape.

 

[T-block]

It's x0.25, but for all intents and purposes, it can't be SDI'd.

B-reversals is a good point actually. But again, I can't think of a situation where I would choose to release the uncharged version over simply charging it for the B-reversal. It requires less of a commit, since you can cancel into an airdodge at any time.

 

[CoonTail]

Lol so all I hear is D-air/Charge water-gun > uncharged water-gun simply due to a much smaller commitment and smaller punishment window. In short uncharged water-gun is the equivalent of Ivy's D-smash for Squirtle........ew

 

[Dre89]

Fairsies. To me the main selling point is the disjoint and the size of the hitbox, but I'll take your word for it.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

Wow, jab 2 to Dsmash is too good after grabbing them close to the edge. Does it shield poke also?

 

[Myollnir]

Ok I tested our Forward Throw follow ups on Kind DeDeDe.
With King DeDeDe, I choosed to DI down because after testing, by going down, you can tech the FThrow earlier, and thus escape at lower %.
Here is what I got (I can't do the frame advance things so it was a manual test, I might be wrong, but I really don't think).

Fresh :
Start at 0-4% :
Fthrow + Regrab
Fthrow + Dash Attack/Ftilt/Fair
Tired :
Start at 0-1% :
Fthrow x4 + Regrab
Fthrow x4 + Dash Attack/FTilt/Fair
Start at 0-4% :
Fthrow x3 + Regrab
Fthrow x3 + Dash Attack/Ftilt/Fair
Start at 0-7% :
Fthrow x2 + Regrab
Fthrow x2 + Dash Attack/Ftilt/Fair
Start at 0-11% :
Fthrow + Regrab
Fthrow + Dash Attack/Ftilt/Fair


NOTES :
* Tired = Fully Tired (70% of knockback and damage)
* You have to buffer your FThrow after grabbing because, when dashgrabbing, Squirtle slides a bit, and you need that slide to combo.
* The Forward Tilt must be angled up. You may follow up that tilt with a Jab (true combo?).
* The Dash Attack must be a Quick Dash Attack (Dash + immediatly C-Stick Down)
* If you choose the "FThrow * X + Regrab option", you can Ground release to Jab of course. You can also FThrow. If your opponents DI Up or towards you, you can regrab on reaction, I think. If they DI Down or away, they can tech and you can chase them. If they don't tech, you can lock (if your opponents DI down, FThrow to FTilt [you don't need to angle it] locks immediatly your opponents when they touch the ground.)

I believe those are true combos (I can't be 100% sure because I can study all the frames etc...).
Well, that's not amazing, but it can help. I want to improve my PT so I study some things about him.

 

[Myollnir]

It seems like Squirtle does not only have true combos on DeDeDe...
It also seems like when a character doesn't lie on the ground after being FThrow'd, you can regrab, fair or QDA.

I've already done Snake, I'm currenty trying Falco.

Edit : We can also follow up with a Jab1 or a Waterfall.

Do the F-throw follow ups deserve a thread or not?

 

[Myollnir]

Jab Locking is pure awesomeness

I've discovered something about our Jab Lock. We can actually change the direction of our lock!

And I'm not speaking about the Jab2 (which allow us to go behind our opponent, but we can only do this if they're not DIing correctly, or at low %).

When we're fatigued, and at low %, Bair locks. When you're locking with these conditions, try to SH Bair (while advancing in order to go behind your opponent) and immediatly turn around Jab.

But this isn't the main thing I want to talk about.
Do you know the small pivot? If not, watch this before reading : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MjARH1GVl4

You must also know how to foxtrot : you can initiate a new dash almost immediatly after finishing your previous dash.
Small pivot allow you to cancel your dash animation... You see?

Immediatly after using Jab1 (while locking), buffer a dash and immediatly let your control stick return to its neutral position, then buffer another dash ; this second dash must be changed to a small pivot, after which you will immediatly Jab1. Now you can continue the lock in the other direction

Inputs :
Lock setup
Jab1/Jab2/Ftilt/whatever for the lock until you're almost at the edge of the platform
Jab1
Buffered Dash
Buffered Dash & immediatly dash in the other direction -> Small Pivot
Jab1 ASAP
Continue the lock.

The timing is very hard actually, but I'm pretty sure I can master it.

Another useful info :
Your opponent is DIing well, he's getting too far... There is a solution.
Immediatly after using Jab1, buffer a dash and let the control stick return to its neutral position. Wait a bit so your dash animation is over. Jab 1 ASAP. Continue the lock (since you dashed, you probably need to change the direction of your lock -> foxtrot + small pivot)

I'm pretty sure it can lead to awesome 0-deaths... Problem ICs?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Ok I tested our Forward Throw follow ups on Kind DeDeDe.
With King DeDeDe, I choosed to DI down because after testing, by going down, you can tech the FThrow earlier, and thus escape at lower %.
Here is what I got (I can't do the frame advance things so it was a manual test, I might be wrong, but I really don't think).

Fresh :
Start at 0-4% :
Fthrow + Regrab
Fthrow + Dash Attack/Ftilt/Fair
Tired :
Start at 0-1% :
Fthrow x4 + Regrab
Fthrow x4 + Dash Attack/FTilt/Fair
Start at 0-4% :
Fthrow x3 + Regrab
Fthrow x3 + Dash Attack/Ftilt/Fair
Start at 0-7% :
Fthrow x2 + Regrab
Fthrow x2 + Dash Attack/Ftilt/Fair
Start at 0-11% :
Fthrow + Regrab
Fthrow + Dash Attack/Ftilt/Fair


NOTES :
* Tired = Fully Tired (70% of knockback and damage)
* You have to buffer your FThrow after grabbing because, when dashgrabbing, Squirtle slides a bit, and you need that slide to combo.
* The Forward Tilt must be angled up. You may follow up that tilt with a Jab (true combo?).
* The Dash Attack must be a Quick Dash Attack (Dash + immediatly C-Stick Down)
* If you choose the "FThrow * X + Regrab option", you can Ground release to Jab of course. You can also FThrow. If your opponents DI Up or towards you, you can regrab on reaction, I think. If they DI Down or away, they can tech and you can chase them. If they don't tech, you can lock (if your opponents DI down, FThrow to FTilt [you don't need to angle it] locks immediatly your opponents when they touch the ground.)

I believe those are true combos (I can't be 100% sure because I can study all the frames etc...).
Well, that's not amazing, but it can help. I want to improve my PT so I study some things about him.

DI'ing in other directions would be useful to check, as a Jump only takes one frame, and going further away from Squirtle might be all a character needs to be able to jump out of it.

That said, I didn't realize that we got a helpful slide after a dash grab. That is useful information. No wonder I could never do this chaingrab stuff that people mention.

The problem with what you mention about the Jab Lock is that you fail to account for opponents SDI'ing toward you. As far as I can tell, there is no reliable way to deal with that inherent mix-up. Still, mention of a foxtrot -> Jab1 being possible mid-Jab Lock is useful information for people who think that SDI away is the safest option. At the very least, it can get us another set of Jabs across the stage. As far as people SDI'ing toward us goes, we can cover that and people who don't SDI just by getting close to an opponent and doing Jab 1 -> Jab2. It will put us behind the opponent, so we can turn around and continue Jab1 locking.

 

[Myollnir]

Before that, I actually tested against a real opponent : I told him to DI up & away and maaaash jump. He was with DDD. I got the same results, except for the "Fthrow x X + Regrab", which can be a "FThrow x (X+1) + Fair if the opponent doesn't DI down.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Before that, I actually tested against a real opponent : I told him to DI up & away and maaaash jump. He was with DDD. I got the same results, except for the "Fthrow x X + Regrab", which can be a "FThrow x (X+1) + Fair if the opponent doesn't DI down.

If at all possible, do it again and have an opponent hold Back (as in, away from Squirtle). This is critical information.

 

[Myollnir]

Ok, I'll do it when I can, but I tested all the directionnal influences (I changed the neutral position of my stick by resetting it while pressing a direction), and I can't see any differences.

But I'll retest it when I'll be able to (i.e I play with a friend)

Edit : for the jab lock thing, I need further testing. But I'm pretty sure we can do the jab1/jab2 thing even with SDI by doing 2 foxtrot things in a row.

 

[T-block]

DI'ing in other directions would be useful to check, as a Jump only takes one frame, and going further away from Squirtle might be all a character needs to be able to jump out of it.

That said, I didn't realize that we got a helpful slide after a dash grab. That is useful information. No wonder I could never do this chaingrab stuff that people mention.

The problem with what you mention about the Jab Lock is that you fail to account for opponents SDI'ing toward you. As far as I can tell, there is no reliable way to deal with that inherent mix-up. Still, mention of a foxtrot -> Jab1 being possible mid-Jab Lock is useful information for people who think that SDI away is the safest option. At the very least, it can get us another set of Jabs across the stage. As far as people SDI'ing toward us goes, we can cover that and people who don't SDI just by getting close to an opponent and doing Jab 1 -> Jab2. It will put us behind the opponent, so we can turn around and continue Jab1 locking.

do you mean SDI'ing towards you in the middle of the jab lock?

pivot jab should take care of that, no?

 

[Killimano23]

If all the pkmn were standalone characters what tier would they end up in??

 

[Tesh]

Assuming fatigue is out (because it wouldnt be reasonably okay even in theory if its just 1 poke)

Squirtle mid tier
ivy would be bottom tier
charizard probably upper low tier.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

imo

Ivy low tier
Squirle mid
Charizard mid

 

[VileFCboy]

Hey wassup, I main PK Trainer and squirtle is my only concern about him. I have this bad habit of almost never using his A tilt attacks since most of the time I tend to keep on using Nair, Fair, or any of the aerial attacks. So my question is how should I time squirtle's A tilt attacks? Should I use Squirtle's wavedashing to help me with the A tilt attacks? I always feel like... there's a delay or something with his A tilts, but most likely that is just me though.

 

[CoonTail]

I'm at work now but will retort when I get home.

Just in short Squirtle's bread and butter are his U-tilt chains to U-air strings.
F-tilt is really good for some extra reach and poking ability
D-tilt can shield poke and is a decent mixup.

Wavedashing can only really help U-tilt but setting that up is difficult.

 

[Myollnir]

Jab is awesome. It comes out at Frame 1, which means that's the fastest move in the game (it's not the only of course, but there's no Frame 0).
After doing a ground release, Squirtle has 29 lag frames. His opponent has 30 lag frames.
Which means : Grab -> Pummel, pummel, pummel, etc... -> Jab is a true combo and is unescapable. However, Yoshi & Ike slide too far so you can't Jab them (there are maybe a few others. DK only have 20 lag frames (or 19?) so he can actually hit you before you do anything. Don't ground release him ._. Ness & Lucas have 40 lag frames, so there are better options than jabbing (and iirc, they slide far away from Squirtle).
Since it comes at frame 1, you can do things like Fair -> Jab at low %, or Bair (hit with Squirtle's head so the opponent is sent to the "wrong" direction) to Jab until like 50%

Forward Tilt is awesome too! It comes out at Frame 4 and ends at Frame 17, which is very very fast. It has a pretty good range (at least for Squirtle). The very tip of the hitbox is disjointed, so for example, you can explode Snake's Grenades without getting hit. I love this move ; I find it very safe. You can use it after a Fair/Bair too.

Up tilt is very good. Quite a fast move. It comboes into itself, or multiple Uair, or a grab. It allows you to rack up damage very quickly on your opponent. Its main weakness is its lack of horizontal range, so it can be tricky to land it. A nice juggle option overall.

Down tilt is... okay. Not extremely good, but it can shield poke, and sometimes hit after a dodge if you used it during the duration of the dodge. It sends your opponent to the air, which is often what you want to do.

Squirtle's Jab&Tilts are awesome in my opinion. Really. Use them a lot. You can hydrojab/hydroutilt btw.

 

[T-block]

i endorse everything that myo said

except that squirtle still has 30 frames when he releases =P

 

[CoonTail]

Mike nailing the one flaw! Lol

Listen to everything Myo wrote since he beat me to the punch! Good stuff Myo

 

[VileFCboy]

Holy crap Myo, thanks so much for the in-depth tips.

 

[Myollnir]

Haha thanks

By the way T-Block, everyone except Bowser (and maybe a few others) have 29 lag frames when they release iirc. If Squirtle had 30 frames, Jab could be shielded, which is not the case.

 

[T-block]

it's kind of a semantics issue... the point is, squirtle doesn't have fewer frames than anyone else releasing, which was a common myth not too long ago. but it looks like you understood that.

i'm not 100% sure this is accurate, but i think it's more correct to say that releaser has 30 frames, but can buffer an action out of the release, whereas the releasee cannot. that effectively yields a 1-frame advantage.

 

[Myollnir]

I'm pretty sure the releaser has a 1 frame advantage. I have to check.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Every releaser has a 1-frame advantage because a character getting released cannot buffer any commands, meaning their input is registered on Frame 31, while the releaser's is registered on Frame 30.

This is why ZSS also gets free Jab out of a grab-release. Everyone's shield comes out on Frame 32, while both jabs come out on Frame 31.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Question! (I tried posting it in the Q&A thread, but it was fairly long, and it got erased due to bumping an old thread...)


Is Squirtle's hydroplanning (name?) essential in his metagame?

I turned the R button from Shield to Jump so I could perform it easily, but I was wrong, the timing is MUCH harder.. Any suggestions on a control scheme so that it becomes easier to perform it? (if it's essential of course) or should I change to the Wiimote+Nunchuck?

 

[T-block]

it's very doable with a GC controller and a standard configuration

i wouldn't call it essential in that you absolutely need it to be able to do well, but it does give you options in a few situations where you wouldn't have options otherwise, so i would say it's well worth your time to be able to do it consistently. any time you read a roll away from you, for example, might be a good time to use it.

i'm assuming you mean the forward hydroplane version here... it's all in moving the control stick quickly. start running forwards, then hit backwards on the control stick and quarter circle to up as fast as you can. hit A just after you reach up. this is assuming tap jump is ON. try it in 1/4x speed in training mode at first, then work your way up.

 

[shinhed-echi]

it's very doable with a GC controller and a standard configuration

i wouldn't call it essential in that you absolutely need it to be able to do well, but it does give you options in a few situations where you wouldn't have options otherwise, so i would say it's well worth your time to be able to do it consistently. any time you read a roll away from you, for example, might be a good time to use it.

i'm assuming you mean the forward hydroplane version here... it's all in moving the control stick quickly. start running forwards, then hit backwards on the control stick and quarter circle to up as fast as you can. hit A just after you reach up. this is assuming tap jump is ON. try it in 1/4x speed in training mode at first, then work your way up.

Ah, thanks! Believe it or not, I tried that way first, but I couldn't get the hang of it. But I think I rather practice that than the R-jump configuration.


Oh, so you press "A" instead of C-sticking up? No wonder I always end up jumping instead of uSmashing. (and yeah I know this makes no sense, lol).

 

[T-block]

i'm not even sure if it's possible to do it with c-stick o.o

 

[shinhed-echi]

i'm not even sure if it's possible to do it with c-stick o.o

It is. XD

At least, I first did it with the Wiichuck's D-pad, and later tried it with C-stick.

Anyway, thanks for that T-Block, gonna go check an Ivysaur faq to see if I can get a full guide on how tethering works.

 

[Aposl]

I hydroplane with c-stick I actually change to clawing my controller when I use hydroplane abilities

 

[Myollnir]

I use the C Stick too.

 

[CoonTail]

Lol I don't use the C-stick because we don't have to use it in the first place and I don't like to use options that can cause misclicks.

This is the same reason why I don't use the c-stick to platform cancel.

 

[Zwarm]

I use C-stick and R jump, because it's what I use to pivot up smash anyway.

I don't use C-stick to platform cancel, it's much easier to just hit down A, or just use the control stick by itself.

 

[Myollnir]

Well, I think I use it because I have a special configuration.
I have L set to jump and Y set to grab. I press X (jump) with my forefinger and R with my middle finger.

 

[Aposl]

for me personally the way i do it is easier for me to get the smash attacks off, but harder to charge them once i start them because z button is so small, but the way coontail does it, when i do it that way its harder for em to get the sliding smash out but way easier to charge it. for me I would rather just space the attacks so when they come out immediately they hit, the forward smash one is the only one that I think charging it legitimately adds to the mind game you have already set up, IMO.

 

[shinhed-echi]

So I finally semi-mastered the forward usmash hydroplaning. (Thanks T-block!)
I switched to using the C-Stick instead of A, because I find it more precise in timing..


Now I really need to know how to hydroplane+everything else. (grab, fsmash, and dsmash, mostly).

Think I've gotten considerably better. Going to try him at a tourney this Sunday. 8}