Squirtle Tactical Discussion

[TheReflexWonder]

are you sure that water gun can hit someone under the stage?

No, you'd be pushing them on the way up for their double-jump, and if they're doing it low enough where they still won't get touched, then you should be able to jump around them/grab the ledge before them (in theory, anyway; we all know it doesn't really work like that).

But, Water Gun can hit slightly under the lip; I think that's enough to prevent a ledge fall -> double-jump from being able to grab the edge.

 

[Steeler]

i need to mess around more with using water gun against ledgecampers.

do you jump before you water gun?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

i need to mess around more with using water gun against ledgecampers.

do you jump before you water gun?

Generally, yes; the ability to move while doing it is wonderful, and it makes pointing the water downward have a purpose.

 

[Miles.]

ANY body herrrre ever reverse watergun and gimp people on ledge by sending them under level?

it is lulz and easy to doo.

 

[Toby.]

Yah you can do it against Ike if you know he wont rise above the stage enough for a normal water gun. Its mega lulz.

 

[T-block]

Haha yeah I've used it. Captain Falcon on FD is lafs.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

I don't normally use it as a understage gimp. Though I'm finding that using watergun is useful to prevent gimps on yourself sometimes, or get an opponent away from the ledge so that you can recover safely.

 

[Miles.]

I don't normally use it as a understage gimp. Though I'm finding that using watergun is useful to prevent gimps on yourself sometimes, or get an opponent away from the ledge so that you can recover safely.

yup.

hella useful like that actually.

 

[Ryusuta]

By any chance can the F.L.U.D.D. be used in those same situations as well?

 

[Canvasofgrey]

By any chance can the F.L.U.D.D. be used in those same situations as well?

You could, but I don't think it's advisable with Mario since his Water attack isn't the same as Squirtle's.

The thing is, is that Sqruitle's water gun is a neutral B, so it's just one button to do an understage gimp. But with Mario, his water gun is DownB, and you're going to initiate a fastfall when you do it (Unless you B-stick, but Mario players don't tend to B stick...) So overally, Mario is put at a more dangerous risk of just dying period.

 

[-LzR-]

Screw you Mario and your useless FLUDD...

 

[Ryusuta]

Screw you Mario and your useless FLUDD...

Wait, what?

 

[-LzR-]

Wait, what?

I just said that Marios FLUDD isn't good because it causes fast fall.

 

[typh]

I don't normally use it as a understage gimp. Though I'm finding that using watergun is useful to prevent gimps on yourself sometimes, or get an opponent away from the ledge so that you can recover safely.

wow i feel ******** how have i not thought of this before

 

[Vermy]

Don't worry. I'm feeling the same atm.

OF COURSE! ITS SO SIMPLE!

-_-

 

[PkTrainerCris]

I think its very risky, water gun is a long duration attack, and you may lose some height if you do it, but it could work...

 

[Exia 00]

I only use water gun to gain greater backward or forward momentum (mainly for spacing purposes.

Also, I like to start charging a water gun in the air and canceling it immediately after with an air dodge. Since both animations look relatively the same it gets confusing. I wish I had videos of this cause I get a lot of funny reactions when doing this. Its also a good way to mix up your approaches (with Bair and Fair). It works better if you play and in and out kind of Squirtle (like Wario DI style in the air)

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Why aren't we talking anymore?

I need to find the horizontal aerial movement speed tier list. My older brother picked up Bowser recently, and with Squirtle, one seems to have a nigh-guaranteed juggle.

Up-Throw at a low percent, and immediately give chase with an Up-Air (short-hop or full-hop, depending on percentage). While they have more than enough time to air-dodge, if your jump puts you in a similar position horizontally, you'll be able to do an attack much more quickly than the opponent will. You can then attempt to land a sourspotted B-Air and grab them when they hit the ground/are in hitstun.

This seems to work until about 50% against Bowser, but diminishing returns on the U-Throw might make it longer. If they don't air-dodge, you land the U-Air and proceed to juggle. Seems like a win/win situation, but it wouldn't work reliably on someone with better aerial mobility than Squirtle, for obvious reasons.

TALK ABOUT IT

OR SOMETHING

 

[Steeler]

actually i think bowser's horizontal air speed is slightly better than squirtle's...haha. right around squirtle's range.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

actually i think bowser's horizontal air speed is slightly better than squirtle's...haha. right around squirtle's range.

It's a good sign, then. If anything, it might work especially well on fatties...but the fall speed is important, too. Thankfully, Squirtle fast-fall is pretty fast, right?

 

[Steeler]

Bowser - 3.30
Squirtle - 3.27

yeah bowser's slightly faster for some really strange reason.

in "blocks per second" (lol) these are the characters that are faster than squirtle

"S Class"
Yoshi - 4.04
Jigglypuff - 3.87
Wario - 3.71
Wolf - 3.63
Captain Falcon - 3.63

"A Class"
Sonic - 3.36
Donkey Kong - 3.36
Lucas - 3.30
Bowser - 3.30
Squirtle - 3.27

i think the fatty factor probably has something to do with it, but it should also work on characters like diddy kong and meta knight.

 

[T-block]

Yeah I've been using u-air -> f-air/b-air a lot to juggle my brother's Lucas. I think it works well on characters that have a similar fall speed to Squirtle, since you end up following them in the air while they air dodge. Hell, I've even landed d-air after their air dodge.

 

[Ghetto Fabulous]

considering how large this thread is, I haven't looked through all of it. But I recently read that marth has a cg on squirtle that effectively makes the matchup impossible. I have yet to encounter a marth that has done this, nor have I seen it in any vids, so can someone who has encountered this please explain if it is indeed impossible to get out of and whether or not platforms will disrupt it?

 

[T-block]

Shhhh...not a lot of Marth's know about it

Yeah it's inescapable, and it leads to a guaranteed u-smash/d-air/f-smash. It's an air release chain, so yeah, platforms like Battlefield and Lylat would disrupt it.

 

[Toby.]

Most platforms in the game don't disrupt it. Smashville, for example, can't save us from the chain grab to spike/whatever.

Once they grab you you pretty much have to hope that they screw up. If they choose to pummel you, try and mash out. Thats about all you can do im afraid.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

Also, does any other character seem to have a devestating ending after a air release like Marth?

Also, what would the Marth MU be like without the CG?

 

[Steeler]

imo the marth matchup would be like 40:60. not bad at all.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm pretty sure that you can Smash DI the D-Air back to the stage.

Also, Yoshi has a "guaranteed" F-Air spikes from his chaingrab, but if you break out fast enough, he can't realistically get it until about 60-ish%.

 

[Toby.]

If they space the release well it is impossible to smash DI back to stage.

If they dont space it correctly and the final release only just gets us past the stage, they could just fsmash or upsmash instead.

 

[Steeler]

i don't think SDI'ing the dair is plausible if they release you far away enough from the stage. edit what toby said.

yoshi has usmash on squirtle as well and ivysaur can chaingrab squirtle with air release heh.

 

[Ghetto Fabulous]

so, what you're telling me is that i have to strike final d and smashville from now on...

 

[T-block]

^it would be a good idea

also, nobody is ready for water gun to dash attack lol. discuss

 

[Magik0722]

Squirtles dair beats shuttle loop, glide attack, mach tornado, drill rush, and obviously can hit dimensional cape at startup and ending lag. Discuss

 

[T-block]

Does it actually beat out Tornado

 

[Steeler]

i could be wrong on this

it will hit MK if you are over it but it shouldn't beat the tornado itself. same with shuttle loop. you can hit MK but you can't beat the blade itself.

the last hit of dair will clash with glide attack, i think. you'll beat drill rush if you hit it with a disjointed hitbox, so the tail of dair's last hit will always win. idk about the other hits though.

 

[Toby.]

Dair only beats tornado if you are coming in from the top. Of course, practically any move will beat tornado from the top so its not really worth a mention.

Pretty much any multi hit attack clanks with and then hits through metaknights glide attack. I don't often try to beat drill rush with dair, so I won't comment on that.

on the ground bair means very little against MK; his ground game is godly as is. I suppose magik is getting at our ability to deal with MK offstage...imo its probably still not worth the risk.

 

[Ghetto Fabulous]

has anyone tried to edge hog mk to force him to curl his drill rush up, and then quickly fall and jump onto the stage doing a reverse water gun? maybe this will work to stop them from doing that **** move

 

[T-block]

I don't see how you're ever going to get MK out far and low enough to force him to use drill rush. Either way, MK would probably be able to grab the ledge after Water Gun anyways.

 

[Toby.]

It doesn't really work, because the windows in which you have to both hog the edge and do a b reversed watergun are too small. For one, you would somehow have to jump onto the stage before metaknight curved the drill rush, because otherwise we wouldn't be able to hit him (he would be closer to the middle of the stage than us)

 

[Ryusuta]

I had a question about something that happened awhile back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXx-wK7RegQ

At about the 32 second mark, does anyone know how Link happened to get an air break from Squirtle's grab? Can it be done intentionally, or was it just luck?