Squirtle Squad (General Disc.)

[bubbaking]

Isn't "normal knockback" just KB that's weak enough to perform a reset on missed tech?

 

[JayMan-X]

maybe, but Water Gun's knockback is too strong to do that. Its definitely not as weak as a Jab1

 

[traffic.]

Let's talk combos!

I've landed on several occasions, side-b x 5 > last knocks diagonal off stage, hit with bubble, jump, surf back to ledge and recover. 0-death that ****.

however that's not easy to land every time and is fairly impractical on anything other than FD.

side-b > nair hits quite often, doesn't chain into much as well as side-b > wg > gentleman as the wg land cancels into jab quite nicely. squirtle's gentleman does not have much for followup options however.

aside from side-b chaining itself quite fluidly with the proper timing and direction, what are some solid followup moves to rack up DPS? with such weak-per-hit output, it's pretty exhausting resetting to neutral so often, and i'm trying to experiment with some longer chains.

show me ya moves

 

[Eaode]

Uair chains.

And WoP fairs.

Bubble -> Withdraw is a pretty sweet setup.

Also Hydroplaned fsmash is a fantastic mixup.

Also at Low-Mid %s, withdraw -> Uair -> fsmash just feels so sexy.

 

[bubbaking]

aside from side-b chaining itself quite fluidly with the proper timing and direction, what are some solid followup moves to rack up DPS?

What's "DPS"?

 

[SpiderMad]

Damage per second. See this is what happens when people never play Warcraft 3 : the phrase doesn't go good with smash well though, he'd be better off just saying "the most damage".

 

[bubbaking]

If you want, uh, 'DPS', try incorporating dsmash into your combos. Also, it would be nice to note that, after dthrow (14%), Squirt's highest-damaging throw is his bthrow (10%). As for his aerials, his fair seems to be his strongest aerial, KB- and damage-wise (13%), but his dair can ALSO do 13% if you link all the hits.

 

[traffic.]

Yeah, I'm looking more specifically for moves that chain together really fluidly, for instance, land a withdraw, water gun as you bounce over, and the landing cancel will seamlessly flow into the squirtle gentleman. there's no tech or escape when you can maintain a stunlock. that sort of thing.

the term dps refers to the concept of doing the most damage in the least time with the least opportunity for interruption.

 

[darkatma]

Squirtle seems like P:M's Pichu from what I've experienced so far.

Withdraw is hilariously easy to dodge (spotdodge, roll, even jump sometimes) and is very easy to punish if missed. Nair has no priority or knockback at all and cannot be used to approach. Utilt has tiny range, hard to set up juggling.

I'll keep testing though, I kinda like the way squirtle moves.

 

[bubbaking]

I find it pretty easy to punish spotdodge/roll attempts to avoid Withdraw. Just abuse how fast that shell turns around, lolz! I've rarely missed a punish attempt on a dodge. It's a little harder when they start jumping or using fast OoS attacks/specials.

 

[Eaode]

^this. Withdraw will perfectly cover a roll or dodge (provided you don't time it out in that time)

Nair approach is a terrible idea. Squirtle excels over pichu because he has a lot more short-mid range mobility and therefore using mixups and fakeouts as a substitute for priority is a much more viable option on him

Also bubble
bubblebubblebubblebubblebubblebubble

 

[RaphaelRobo]

SH WG is also a great approach. It's not quite as good as SH Bubble, but you get a lot more range out of it.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Squirtle seems like P:M's Pichu from what I've experienced so far.

Agreed. What were they even thinking with his n-air?

Bubble and b-air are both really good. The rest of his moves (outside of smashes) either have no range or useless knockback/damage. His throws are okay on fastfallers, seem kind of lackluster on everybody else. It seems like u-throw either doesn't have enough stun, or releases too late, or something...

His ground movement is awesome, but his floatiness makes him really awkward in the air, and limits his ability to combo or deal with platform camping. Overall he just seems really underpowered compared to the rest of the cast.

 

[bubbaking]

I......really don't find Squirtle very floaty at all. (O_o) "Useless KB/damage"? I'm inclined to disagree. His fair hits harder than his bair does and is quite strong. His ftilt is also a nice poke that pushes the opponent offstage. I find it somewhat analagous to Samus' ftilt, especially since his tail has invincibility and the tilt is so fast. Yes, I agree that utilt is awkward, and his throws seem to be better for pushing the opponent around the stage than actually comboing, but they're all still pretty useful.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I might be wrong about his falling speed; there's just something about his aerial movement that feels very awkward/Brawl-like.

F-air is strong, but it has no range. F-tilt is okay, but also very small. His movement can compensate for the lack of range somewhat, but in the end it just feels like you're doing a lot of work for very little payoff.

 

[Translucent]

DPS means "damage per second." I think that wouldn't be a great time to use it, but he means just damage or to build up percent.

Side-b chains are good to follow up with fair or nair, and if on stage downsmash is a really good finisher to it because it does a bunch of damage and is just that great.

 

[Eaode]

I can agree with uthrow not releasing fast enough.

Squirtle is a very unique character. I like think of him like Chipp in Guilty Gear. He's a very light, very fast, pressure based character, but he doesn't fit into the exchange game of 90% of the cast, so he has to do his own thing. I could see him being a low tier that can still be relevant in the metagame.

 

[Translucent]

I really don't know where he will be on the tier list. He is really tricky to play, and people haven't fully discovered what he can do. I think he can definitely be a threat, especially people who haven't gone against squirtle before.

 

[dettadeus]

I don't see Squirtle hurting himself with several of his moves.

Although they do have one thing in common: Shades Squirtle and Goggleschu are both top-tier.

 

[Translucent]

I disagree. Goggles is top, Shades is god tier.

 

[traffic.]

The important thing to remember as well is that the tier list at this point is based off of existing high-tier characters, and everyone's experience against them. with new character playstyles, it's going to take some time and development from experienced gamers to really bring these characters into their own and evolve the game.

Squirtle is, like Eaode said, very unique in the way he has to deliver damage and apply pressure. I feel that he would be dramatically improved to a competitive level if his moves just had more priority. The low damage would be a fair trade off if his moves could actually land/win a couple of trades, with his mobility finding the opportunities to attack is simple enough. I think as more players can provide the community with some high end footage of ruthless and competitive squirtles, the PMBR can adjust what needs adjusting to fix any shortcomings, but until we actually have the time and collective effort put into it, there's nothing inherently wrong with squirtle. He's just a janky mother.

 

[bubbaking]

Squirtle is a very unique character. I like think of him like Chipp in Guilty Gear. He's a very light, very fast, pressure based character, but he doesn't fit into the exchange game of 90% of the cast, so he has to do his own thing. I could see him being a low tier that can still be relevant in the metagame.

Chipp is pretty high, though...

 

[Eaode]

Chipp is pretty high, though...

In AC? I was sure he was low tier, at least last time I checked <.<

EDIT: Random thought: Shades should increase squirtle's light armor thresholds by 1%

 

[Eaode]

:double post <.<:

 

[bubbaking]

Xx ac + r.

 

[Eaode]

Ohh, I never played +r :$

 

[cmart]

Upthrow is actually one of the fastest throw releases in the game - it's under the threshold of human reaction time, meaning that it's impossible to DI on reaction. Now the throw might have more lag than you might be expecting - that's certainly possible, but saying it releases too slow is inane.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Sorry, what I meant to say is that Squirtle is stuck in the throw animation for too long, not that it releases the other character too slowly.

 

[Eaode]

^Yeah, that's what I took from it.

 

[McNinja]

So do we have a "best squirtle main" yet?

 

[dettadeus]

It's been like, a month since Squirtle was released lol.
I don't think I've heard of any top players picking up Squirtle, but then again there can't have even been that many tournaments since 2.5 came out, so it could be a while.

 

[traffic.]

Yeah I think we've established that there is like 5 of us that play squirtle, and there are like two videos out there, let's put a pin in "best" for a while

Spoiler

me

 

[dettadeus]

Best should be me until someone else starts using HydroPivots.

 

[Translucent]

Do you have any more videos detta from recent times or any that could be posted in the near future?

 

[dettadeus]

Well I haven't played P:M in like two or three weeks and am terrible at getting matches saved (coupled with the fact that most people don't use the wifi build), so I don't have anything new.
Should have a fest/tourney coming up in a couple weeks though and I could probably get matches there.

I should have a replay sitting on my Wii of all the Hydroplane techs, maybe I'll record and trim it so people can see how everything looks when done properly

 

[Translucent]

Okay, sounds great. I've watched most of the videos in the thread, so I'm just looking for some more to learn from.

 

[traffic.]

i've been having a hard time hydroplaning dsmash and forward fsmash, but ive also not spent any solo time practicing them. otherwise hydropivoting into a boost grab into dthrow or usmash has been the biggest chunk of my kill game, with bubble gimps filling in the rest. I'm going to try and get some footage together soon, as I've started playing with a larger variety of people in the region and now have access to a few recording setups. I'm at a funny crossroads with squirtle where I go back and forth between awesome 0-death combos, and silly killing myself with durp combos.

edit- also, pivot cancels are way more janky than dash dancing with squirtle, once your opponent knows you can usmash across 3/4 of the stage he gives you a little more room.

 

[Eaode]

once your opponent knows you can usmash across 3/4 of the stage he gives you a little more room.

This is the truest thing about squirtle that has ever been said.

 

[dettadeus]

*Dsmash

Usmash has no armor. ;P

 

[traffic.]

and dsmash doesnt hit every airbourne everything super quickly or kill people. if you're sliding into a grounded opponent go for the uber boost grab or an fsmash, fsmash keeps the armor and has a more direct trajectory to the blast zone.

but who needs armor when you're not getting hit.

in the same regard that standing on a platform near a captain falcon means uair-knee**** to the face, being on a platform at % when squirtle has the freedom to slide in makes him a huge threat from below, while jump > withdraw cancel provides him with a tonne of aerial mobility in bursts and you can pretty quickly bubble out of it to cover your behind. when you can move around as much as squirtle can you have the freedom to pick your attacks and where.

and on the topic of nair, it does have pretty excellent gimping power, and its not useful for knockback, but excellent for redirecting a recovering opponent. less ending lag than a bubble (and you dont need a specific angle) and you can aim it/jump back pretty easily.