Squirtle Squad (General Disc.)

[dettadeus]

bubble goes through literally every anti-approach option g&w has

grounded bubble probably outranges g&w's dtilt even, although using it grounded would be pretty dumb

approaching g&w shouldn't even be a problem, both characters die super early (kill g&w with usmash and uair, g&w will ALWAYS try to kill you horizontally so DI upwards if you know you're about to get hit hard), g&w is slow so you can out-speed him and force him to use one of his laggy moves to try and stop you from doing something (ftilt and all his aerials except uair leave him lagging for quite a bit), if he spams bacon then ignore him until he stops (if you don't have percent lead, withdraw should be able to go through bacon although i would suggest bubble or FH dair since his utilt has relatively bad coverage)
also whatever you do, don't get grabbed

my thoughts on squirtle vs g&w, since i play both chars

 

[bubbaking]

Now here's a MU I feel is pretty bad for us (McNinja, this is a familiar one for us ): MARTH! We can't get in on that sword. It out-ranges everything so quickly. It's not like Ike because Ike has glaring holes in his defense. Marth can just wall us out. Recovering, too, is a pretty big hassle. He can just fsmash us out of Withdraw. That sword breaks most of our armored moves too. I just switch to Lucario for Marth, 'cause I can't deal. How do you guys do that MU? (>.<)

 

[McNinja]

I mostly just dance around just out of his range untill he f smashes. then run in and grab.
Recovering shouldn't be too much of a problem against marth? Your up b should hit him out of any kind of edgeguard he's trying to do on stage. You may have to specify on what exactly you're situation is Bubba.

But yeah against a good marth that doesn't Fsmash as much, the matchup does seem a bit difficult.

 

[bubbaking]

In all honesty, waiting for Marth to fsmash isn't too good because a good Marth will never fsmash unless it's part of a combo or an edgeguard (or he's desperate). I guess I should upB more, as you say, and see how that works. He tends to hit me out of Withdraw with like, anything, but usually fsmash. Once GHNeko finally puts those vids up, I'll have some material for you guys to analyze and critique.

 

[dettadeus]

How do you guys do that MU? (>.<)

i play rob

 

[Translucent]

I was messing around in training mode and I discovered with Squirtle to quickly ledgehog while running at ledge you can shell shift the other way then immediately wave dash backwards. Has anyone done this?

 

[bubbaking]

Yes. It's the same as a regular RAR.

i play rob

I really don't find that this is much better. Well, that's a lie. It is better 'cause Marth is so CCable, but if the Marth spaces properly, it becomes a ***** to get in because Marth out-spaces our tilts so badly and CC only gets us so far before the Marth starts spacing. Still, it's real easy to gimp Marth, though. I just don't like the onstage game versus him. I'd rather just go Lucario and **** 'im up.

 

[traffic.]

Much like Falco is dead if he is off-stage, you're pretty much dead if Marth is on-stage

 

[dettadeus]

I really don't find that this is much better. Well, that's a lie. It is better 'cause Marth is so CCable, but if the Marth spaces properly, it becomes a ***** to get in because Marth out-spaces our tilts so badly and CC only gets us so far before the Marth starts spacing. Still, it's real easy to gimp Marth, though. I just don't like the onstage game versus him. I'd rather just go Lucario and **** 'im up.

>ROB
>Approach

I just chuck projectiles at him until he comes at me. At some point I'll get him offstage and gimp him. ;P

But this isn't the ROB MU thread so yeah.

I was messing around in training mode and I discovered with Squirtle to quickly ledgehog while running at ledge you can shell shift the other way then immediately wave dash backwards. Has anyone done this?

This is in the Squirtle tech thread as like... Slingdashing or something.

 

[McNinja]

In all honesty, waiting for Marth to fsmash isn't too good because a good Marth will never fsmash unless it's part of a combo or an edgeguard...



...He tends to hit me out of Withdraw with like, anything, but usually fsmash.

I think you just answered your own problem.

if he usually hits you out of withdrawl with F smash, bait it next time and punish.

 

[Translucent]

This is in the Squirtle tech thread as like... Slingdashing or something.

I couldn't find what I explained. Shell slinging is something about jumping forward then turning around. I was talking about running towards the ledge, shell shifting, then immediately wave dash in back towards the edge. You might be able to do this with all characters, but I hadn't noticed it until now.

 

[dettadeus]

I couldn't find what I explained. Shell slinging is something about jumping forward then turning around. I was talking about running towards the ledge, shell shifting, then immediately wave dash in back towards the edge. You might be able to do this with all characters, but I hadn't noticed it until now.

um, no

i mentioned slingdashing

slingdashing is a wavedash out of a turnaround/dash pivot (which in squirtle's case is his shell shift)
any character can do it because you can jump out of your pivot animation but squirtle gets massive momentum because of his shell shift

and shell slinging is just a reverse aerial rush (RAR) which any character can do, but because of squirtle's pivot animation (again, shellshift) he launches forward a bit

 

[Translucent]

Okay, cool. That is what I was wondering, because I really noticed it with all of Squirtle's mobility.

 

[bubbaking]

I think you just answered your own problem.

if he usually hits you out of withdrawl with F smash, bait it next time and punish.

The problem is that I can't really "bait" it when I'm recovering (from high up) with Withdraw. Once I commit to it, it's hard to stop. I'm kinda scared of just cancelling the move when I'm plummeting down at him, so I guess I'm just hoping that he'll screw up and I'll hit him. That's probably a scrubby mentality though. I guess I'll try just doing it for a second to try to coax/scare him into doing something.

 

[Toby.]

Squirtle is fun and I have trouble using him. I'm going to list a few things I play with.

JC grab out of a shell stall is an effective punish for many baited moves. Good thing we can WD out of shellstall for additional safety. The necessity of the pivot for many of squirtle's better ranged options (JC grab, HPdsmash/fsmash) means that his potential range is somewhat difficult to use on the go. Unlike a character with a normally long grab range, squirtle needs a large number of frames to run away, pivot towards the opponent and then let out his jc grab. So I think mixing in lots of pivots is important, so as to make it less obvious when you're setting up a pivot tech. I usually just WD immediately after pivoting, so mixing in a fair few pivots doesn't really put me in an awkward situation or eat up too much time.

Squirtle's low traction lets him slide along the ground when you use aerials into the ground. So a retreating bair can be somewhat safe even if you initiate the attack almost immediately before touching the ground - you'll still retreat a little.

Short hopped nair and fair both finish quickly enough for you to waveland at the end. Shellslinging Sh crossover nairs, then wavelanding as the matchup dictates is fun. Oh and crossover anything -> dtilt is pretty useable. It dodges many OOS bairs, has invinc frames, pops up for followups...not bad.

When using the c-stick to fsmash/dsmash out of a shellshift without charging the smash, I occasionally do a max range forward facing fsmash. To clarify, the only input i'm using is pivot->a direction on the c-stick. I've been trying to find the precise timing/direction that initiates the fsmash, but I can't do it consistently. A fast forward facing fsmash, using only the c-stick, is alluring.

Marth destroys squirtle. Just like in brawl

 

[bubbaking]

Dtilt has invincibility frames? (O_O) I thought it was only his tail that had invincibility.

These are some really good points!

Yeah, I agree about Marth. That MU really blows.

 

[Toby.]

From the frame data thread (in response to your question about inv. frames ):

@ Bubbak - I can say that Squirt's tail has invinc during ftilt, downtilt and bair - I'll put those moves on my to-do list so you can have the frame windows for that (for ftilt and dtilt though, it's safe to say when he's swinging it).

Pretty neat, though his short range means he still really suffers vs disjoints.

 

[sa1vy]

So today I played double squirtle in teams with another guy at a tournament. Was super fun having our squirtle squad, but we didn't do so well...

 

[Translucent]

I have trouble using Squirtle in doubles, I need to work on it. I can imagine that a quad squirtle finals would be the greatest game ever played.

 

[cmart]

Actually it IS only his tail that's invincible during those moves. Sorry, I've been super busy with development stuff lately and haven't had a chance to update the data thread : \

 

[Toby.]

I don't think there was any doubt about it being just his tail, but thanks for the clarification anyway

 

[bubbaking]

Squirtle and Ivy might make a good team... One of them gets in and goes ham. The other one camps it out and stocks tanks since Squirt loses them kinda fast. Of course, Ivy's healing ability would help to buff stock tanking.

 

[Eaode]

Also Ivy is a very defensive zone-y character which definitely compliments squirtle's style.

Squirtle Charizard could also work very well, 'cause zard has combos but isn't nearly as mobile as squirtle so with each other's help they could probably do beautiful things.

 

[JayMan-X]

Just to note...
I kinda wish Withdraw's cancel was A instead of B. That way i can double tap (or mash, watever) withdraw and not worry about accidentally cancelling it.

or maybe im just too nooby to time my presses better

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Actually, that's an interesting idea. I think it'd be cool if A was to get out of withdraw, and B was aqua jet. That means you don't have to bother pushing Up to Aqua Jet, and it makes it easier to do an instant Aqua Jet out of Withdraw.

 

[JayMan-X]

Or even better yet, Shield to cancel withdraw and use A to Aqua Jet :]

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Whatever they do, it'd be pretty cool to have aqua jet and cancelling withdraw be on different buttons, rather than B and UpB. I have absolutely no clue if that's possible, though.

 

[Greenpoe]

I gotta say I LOVE Squirtle's up B! It's my favorite move (after side B, of course). It's a great combo-finisher, thwarts many edge-gaurding attempts, and a KO move!

Also, down smash has a surprisingly large hitbox. It doesn't just hit with his shell, but with the water as well. So, all Squirtle's smashes are pretty sweet.

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, I also think it would be nice if Withdraw cancel and Aqua Jet were delegated to different buttons.

I think I found out what makes Aqua Jet 'randomly' fail and send Squirt plummeting downwards. It seems that when Squirt performs Aqua Jet too soon after starting Withdraw, his Aqua Jet goes downwards or something. This has happened pretty consistently for me.

 

[Translucent]

I find his Down smash to be really useful for ending combos, racking up damage, or hitting moves or their rolls with it. I can't find a good use for forward smash yet other than hydroplaning it sometimes.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Fsmash works pretty well as an edgeguard.

 

[bubbaking]

Fsmash is also a reliable punish for onstage recoveries because of the amount of space it covers, so you can kind of 'overestimate' the attack to be safe. The armor it has is also very helpful. It's really good against the FFers, IMO, since it would be harder to kill them with u/dsmash.

I like dsmash a lot for countering CCs and for punishing get-up attacks, both on missed techs and ledges, since it armors through them.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Yeah, that's what I use Dsmash for too.

Since we're talking about smashes, hitting people on platforms with Usmash is fun. Juggling them with it is even more fun. And it KOs really well.

 

[Eaode]

I've been training my squirtle, namely in hydroplaning f and dsmashes. Also in edgecanceling.

ALSO, Nair, Fair, and Uair are all wavelandable. And I'm not sure, but I suspect Double fair MIIIIIIIGHT be possible? (It's either frame perfect or just barely not possible)

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, man, the range on that smash is SO GOOD! It reaches all the way from the ground to the high platform on Skyloft (the one on the right).

 

[Translucent]

I love Squirtle, I can't think of any useless moves of his. I think it will take a while for people to find out when to use his water gun, but it's definitely usable.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I've found SH WG to be incredibly useful at a lot of ranges, sometimes even more useful than SH Bubble. I haven't found any uses for it as an edgeguard, though. I've definitely been able to pull off some good combos using WG, though. You just have to hit them with the part that causes knockback, and there's very little lag when landing on the ground, so you can easily bubble/tilt/jab/grab out of it.

 

[bubbaking]

Does WG 'jab reset' missed techs? That's something I need to find out.

 

[dettadeus]

I can't find a good use for forward smash yet other than hydroplaning it sometimes.

I hydroplane past people and then Fsmash them from behind.
Guaranteed to scare the crap out of whoever you're playing the first time you do it.

 

[JayMan-X]

Does WG 'jab reset' missed techs? That's something I need to find out.

no it either hits them with normal knockback (upclose) or just pushes them (far away), never hits like a jab