Squirtle Squad (General Disc.)

[bubbaking]

I like hydroplane usmash more than dsmash. It seems to go further and it kills. Also, it covers a greater area 'cause of how large the hitbox is.

 

[Kyu Puff]

For what it's worth, I've been messing around with Squirtle some more and he's not as bad as I originally thought. He has a unique design, but it does need some reworking--a few tweaks could go a long way:

- Water gun would be way more useful if the lag could be canceled, or if the "push" hitbox was completely replaced with a damaging hitbox. I know Squirtle isn't supposed to be campy or defensive, so I understand not wanting to give him an amazing projectile, but right now water gun just kind of a waste of a move slot.

- U-throw needs more stun. It doesn't kill and it rarely combos into anything. Again, I understand not giving Squirtle amazing throws because it's easy for him to land grabs, but as of now u-throw has very little utility.

- U-air has a weird design. The hitbox is kind of small, and it doesn't stay out for very long, which makes it tough for Squirtle to catch platform campers (high second jump and b-air somewhat make up for this, but if Squirtle has to jump up to the top platform every time his opponent starts to run away, he's at a huge disadvantage). The knockback is too weak to kill, but just strong enough that it has limited combo potential. This might be remedied with a fast, low knockback aerial that keeps opponents closer to the ground (ahem fix n-air).

So yeah. I don't think Squirtle is *that* bad, his moveset just isn't as coherent/synergistic as it could be. I'm looking forward to playing him in the next release, whenever that may be...

 

[bubbaking]

Uthrow doesn't kill because dthrow does, lolz.

Those are fairly legit points, I guess.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I really like SH Water Gun. You should try it more.

 

[bubbaking]

I can understand people being upset with the no damage, push-only hitbox. It's kinda hard to tell where the damaging portion ends and the push-only portion begins, and I'd argue that the push-only portion isn't nearly as useful as the damaging portion unless you could consistently use it to punish missed Rests. I'm actually mostly fine with all the attacks Kyu brought up, but I can understand why someone else would be put off by them.

 

[dettadeus]

I feel like Water Gun should only be one or the other kind of hitbox. If it was a push-only sort of thing (which could clank with other hitboxes or even be transcendent) then it would be great for gimps and spacing, if it was damage-only (weakening as it goes further but still doing damage and the knockback it has now) then it would be good for interrupting moves and things like that.

I also feel it should be aimable like ROB's laser. It's really annoying not having it aimable anything like how it was in Brawl. >_>

 

[bubbaking]

Actually, I think it IS aimable, but the WG always starts shooting in the same direction. After that beginning (if you've charged it long enough), you can swivel it to control the spray's direction, similar to Bowser's Flame Breath.

 

[dettadeus]

I didn't say it wasn't aimable. But it's not anything like it was in Brawl. In Brawl you started in the middle and could very quickly change the angle about 35 degrees either up or down. In P:M it starts at a very low angle (almost horizontal) and you can very slowly make it go further up or down.

 

[traffic.]

wg note: great for spacing in a few extra % and nerfing slow attacks, terrible for charging and trying to make a wall to stop inc pwns.

 

[Translucent]

Yeah, I can't seem to get charged water gun to work well most of the time.

 

[traffic.]

if you have it charged and then b-turn it while recovering from up high (firing it away from the stage) you can launch yourself across most of the map by holding back once he starts spitting it. otherwise it's only real use charged is to sit on the ledge and stop people from recovering. and its only occasionally useful doing that.

 

[Kyu Puff]

One other minor use: uncharged watergun can hit through physical projectiles (since it has multiple hitboxes).

 

[traffic.]

yes absolutely, especially useful against zss and wolf, who have slower lasers, and can both use a little push back when they get going. I just spent some time working more wg into my neutral game and I was happy and frustrated when it would switch between super effective () and just did not help me whatsoever.

 

[bubbaking]

wg note: great for spacing in a few extra % and nerfing slow attacks, terrible for charging and trying to make a wall to stop inc pwns.

What does "inc pwns" mean? Man, some of your terminology always confuses me.....

On the subject of WG, I think EVERYONE should take a look at this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?annota...&feature=iv&src_vid=Y4S2UDbBIVw&v=qQfKZ-FYUHs
Pay especially close attention to the part at 1:05 where it explains Induced Hit Lag (IHL). This could possibly be very useful for Squirtle if applied correctly, since I believe Squirt can move before the water fully disappears.

 

[traffic.]

Yeah you can start moving and attack again while the animation continues.

inc = incoming.
pwns = owns = ownage = getting beaten at a video game.

gamers tend to speak subenglish.

 

[Eaode]

For what it's worth, I've been messing around with Squirtle some more and he's not as bad as I originally thought. He has a unique design, but it does need some reworking--a few tweaks could go a long way:

- Water gun would be way more useful if the lag could be canceled, or if the "push" hitbox was completely replaced with a damaging hitbox. I know Squirtle isn't supposed to be campy or defensive, so I understand not wanting to give him an amazing projectile, but right now water gun just kind of a waste of a move slot.

- U-throw needs more stun. It doesn't kill and it rarely combos into anything. Again, I understand not giving Squirtle amazing throws because it's easy for him to land grabs, but as of now u-throw has very little utility.

- U-air has a weird design. The hitbox is kind of small, and it doesn't stay out for very long, which makes it tough for Squirtle to catch platform campers (high second jump and b-air somewhat make up for this, but if Squirtle has to jump up to the top platform every time his opponent starts to run away, he's at a huge disadvantage). The knockback is too weak to kill, but just strong enough that it has limited combo potential. This might be remedied with a fast, low knockback aerial that keeps opponents closer to the ground (ahem fix n-air).

So yeah. I don't think Squirtle is *that* bad, his moveset just isn't as coherent/synergistic as it could be. I'm looking forward to playing him in the next release, whenever that may be...

Agreed on uthrow, its followups could be more solid.
Disagree on Uair. It's an amazing combo move at low-mid %, and it the backbone of squirtle's vertical combo game (and leads into waterfall)
Would love for SH watergun to be wavelandable. That would kick ass.
Nair has a cool trajectory, but the fact that the hitbox is basically squirtle's body makes this move have bad range and priority even for squirtle. (It'd be sweet if they gave nair the medium armor !!)

I think squirtle is fine the way he is, but he's not at the point where buffs would be out of place. I really don't care if they make any further changes to squirtle (but if any of the above happen in the future I'm gonna fangirl so hard)

 

[Kyu Puff]

I wouldn't call it "amazing." Yeah, it's the backbone of his vertical combo game because it's his *only* vertical combo move. It still isn't good, especially if you compare it to other characters' u-airs. The lack of range and duration on the hitbox means that at best, you'll trade with or lose to most d-airs. That means you can only juggle someone if they remain in hitstun, but it's damage/knockback ratio is too low for extended combos.

I'm also not sure how I feel about his huge second jump. It helps his recovery, but I find it makes spacing aerials a little bit harder sometimes. Squirtle is kind of vulnerable in the air, since his d-air doesn't give him much protection from below, so a second jump that launches him high up into the air is dangerous.

Not a huge problem, but basically what I'm getting at is that Squirtle has an amazing ground movement, and lacks priority in the air, so it would be nice if he had an easier way to get from the air back to the ground (maybe increased fastfall speed or more range on d-air?)

 

[dettadeus]

since his d-air doesn't give him much protection from below, so a second jump that launches him high up into the air is dangerous.

he also has a fast, transcendent projectile that covers a massive area below him and slows his fallspeed temporarily

 

[Kyu Puff]

True, but it also has quite a bit of start-up and has to be used preemptively. Your opponent is still at a big advantage, because they either have enough time to hit you, or they can wait for the bubble and punish (and the reward for them is way higher than the risk, because if they get hit by bubble in the air it doesn't really do anything).

Anyways, my point wasn't that Squirtle is completely helpless in the air, it's just that he's way better on the ground and it would be nice if his mechanics facilitated him staying near the ground.

 

[Eaode]

 

[GunBlaze]

****ing LOL

 

[kyroN]

Pink Squirtle obviously best Squirtle.

Also Down-B is possibly the best thing ever

 

[Translucent]

Pink Squirtle with shades and bubble is like Jackie Chan with both of his fists.

 

[traffic.]

dair > utilt > utilt > uair > bad/no DI you can continue uairs, or follow up with two fairs or a bair if they go to the sides. the thing people don't appreciate about squirtle is that if you can play his air game correctly, you can shuffle most of his aerials into a pretty solid combo, but it is a very different skillset than his ground game and because of his movement the timing is very weird.

if you are trying to finish your combos with surf as a KO, your opponent doesnt know how to DI out of the slowest and easiest up-b ever. unless you can space it miraculously so that only the last one or two hits of surf connect, they should be able to SDI down (or up) out of it and punish your special fall hard. way too many consecutive slow hits to be a safe killer.

Consistent kill moves: f-smash, u-smash, d-throw, sweetspot aqua jet. if they're really starting to rack up %, fair can get a few too. anything else you're looking at 150+ on light characters. totally lame. better off going for gimps with nair, bubble, wg, or withdraw against the heavier cast, they'll stay low on your shuffles and you can keep the speed on to work them side to side.

Kyu: after you land a withdraw, spit a WG out as you pop out and you can reset them right in time to land the squirtle gentleman which even sometimes will get you a follow up fsmash. it's very much a weird move that only has a few janky uses and most of the time just totally blows.

edit- in retrospect the wg may do nothing and the jab would reset. you can get an l-canceled nair in afterwards just the same, and i believe fair resets in this situation also. so, **** wg.

 

[Translucent]

I'm terrible at landing f-smash. The only way I get kills is Hydroplaned Up-smash, bubble gimps, or D-throw. But I do have to admit hydroplaning f-smash is quite fun.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Fsmash is a great move. The armor on it makes it great for landing a KO with the right read. UpB is a great KO move. It's fairly easy to only get them with the KO hit (so they can't DI), and you can get them out of juggles pretty easy. It's my preferred way of KOing heavy characters.

 

[traffic.]

Trans: play around with pivots/stalling into fsmash, it's a great mixup when you're edgeguarding, pivot around and jank it up, they get back on stage to try and punish you being close and BAM fsmash takes the 12% and KOs.

 

[Eaode]

Also hydroplane fsmash crossups are a hilarious gimmick mixup.

 

[traffic.]

just got the first generation finished up, unstoppable B-)

 

[JayMan-X]

OMG that looks pretty amazing
lol @ squirtle beard

edit : call it Solid Squirtle

 

[Translucent]

Wow that is amazing...

 

[traffic.]

Jay, check the filename

 

[Blaughable]

Hey guys, new to project M/squirtle. I've been having a blast with this little guy.
I was wondering what moves you guys use to carry people off screen. None of his aerials seems to have enough side knock back. The best move for that seems to be withdraw so far. I've been experimenting with: withdraw on stage, withdraw jump, hit opponent, exit withdraw(if you miss), jump, withdraw back, aquajet to safety.

 

[traffic.]

Fair is really the go-to if you are trying to get the KO off the side. if you are on the side platform of BF, for example, you could run something like utilt > uair > fair > fair. the second fair will most likely weak hit, but you have the reasonable option of using your double jump to kill with a third fair, and still recover with either withdraw aquajet, or withdraw cancel surf. however you should be looking for every opportunity to bubble your opponent the second they are off stage.

if you land a withdraw that sends your opponent off the stage, an immediate followup withdraw will connect, you can bubble to gimp, jump, surf back and ledgehog if they survive.

 

[K@$h]

i don't know if you if you guys have seen that character rating list that overswarm made, but it has squirtle pretty dang low. what you guys think about that? i know i didn't like that too much. the list is a pretty cool thing though.
http://smashboards.com/threads/character-ranking-list-project-m.334291/#post-15342011

 

[traffic.]

Its based on how many squirtles place in tournaments. If you got feels about it, start placing =/

 

[Translucent]

Yea I dislike Squirtle being that low, but I think that Squirtle is on the lower end of the tier list in the state he is in right now.

 

[Bones0]

It's not a tier list. There is no tier list because there is sooooo much room for all of the barlw-specific characters to improve that it's ridiculous, and that includes Squirtle. He reminds me of Yoshi from Melee because it's really easy to kill yourself and miss opportunities, but when you can go turbo and play perfect for literally just 5 seconds straight, you see a lot of potential. There's also a lot of little things that add up that I don't think most Squirtle players do (just based on the very few vids I've seen). Stuff like jumping when you change directions in Withdraw or aiming your Withdraw based on if you have rising or falling momentum are things that will become second nature and basic parts of Squirtle's game, but when players don't have those habits yet, they are spending a lot of brainpower focusing on them instead of their opponent, or they are just messing up completely because they aren't doing them at all. Like with all things, you have to go from unconscious incompetence to conscious incompetence, to conscious competence, and then unconscious competence. I'm in between the middle two steps right now, so I'm excited to see what my Squirtle will be able to do once I can play the game without worrying about basic execution. ^_^

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Did you play Project M at the last Xanadu Bones? Assuming you showed up (Coulda sworn you did)

Anyway, I'll have to agree, those moments where you get everything going (Shades are a good motivation to do so) definitely lead to some good things.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I don't know, I have a very intuitive sense for Squirtle's movement that seems to have carried over from melee. I don't have to focus on what I'm doing at all. It's just that his combos are bad, most of them rely on the opponent messing up/can be easily avoided with proper DI. In order to build up any damage at all you have to continually outpredict your opponent, which is mentally taxing and impractical at a competitive level. I'm sure an amazing player would be able to do well with him, but like Bones said, success with Squirtle usually comes in 5 second spurts, mostly because after 5 seconds your opponent adapts and you have to figure them out all over again. Bubble >>> anything else he has.