Squirtle Squad (General Disc.)

[Bones0]

Did you play Project M at the last Xanadu Bones? Assuming you showed up (Coulda sworn you did)

Anyway, I'll have to agree, those moments where you get everything going (Shades are a good motivation to do so) definitely lead to some good things.

Yeah, I played a few games. I had only practiced Squirtle for a few hours on my own though. It was my first time playing humans. I have been using Sonic for most of my P:M games until then.

I don't know, I have a very intuitive sense for Squirtle's movement that seems to have carried over from melee. I don't have to focus on what I'm doing at all. It's just that his combos are bad, most of them rely on the opponent messing up/can be easily avoided with proper DI. In order to build up any damage at all you have to continually outpredict your opponent, which is mentally taxing and impractical at a competitive level. I'm sure an amazing player would be able to do well with him, but like Bones said, success with Squirtle usually comes in 5 second spurts, mostly because after 5 seconds your opponent adapts and you have to figure them out all over again. Bubble >>> anything else he has.

I'm the complete opposite. lol Squirtle has a really good WD, movement techniques, and knockdown tactics (Bubble zomg), but I am pretty awful at using them. Once I get a knockdown, grab, or uair, though, I'm good to go. I did a MM against a ROB, and I remember the third game I started off with a 90%+ streak from just a 2-3 "segment" combo. You rarely see full-blown 02d combos in Melee or P:M, but having a character that can reliable convert positional advantage into another hit is almost just as good as being able to combo straight through. I didn't have much problem converting from uthrow/knockdowns into utilt/uair chains.

I know you said you didn't like uthrow/uair, which seemed weird to me because that was my most reliable combo starter. Maybe you should try mixing up the timing of your uair during your jump/DJ if you can't seem to chain uairs until you run out of jumps and plats to land on. It's reminiscent of Melee Pikachu, but Squirtle's uair doesn't do a measly 2%, and he can end with a pretty strong Waterfall KO. I think you can also combo the sourspot at the end of the move into a bair, but idk how possible it is for opponents to aerial out before the bair hits (even if they can, most people won't cause they won't expect it and it's hard to react to even if they do).

 

[K@$h]

yeah i totally agree with the 5 second burst thing. the longest combo i think i have ver held was probably about 6 seconds and most of that was them being in the air rather than me actually hitting them.

know you said you didn't like uthrow/uair, which seemed weird to me because that was my most reliable combo starter. Maybe you should try mixing up the timing of your uair during your jump/DJ if you can't seem to chain uairs until you run out of jumps and plats to land on. It's reminiscent of Melee Pikachu, but Squirtle's uair doesn't do a measly 2%, and he can end with a pretty strong Waterfall KO. I think you can also combo the sourspot at the end of the move into a bair, but idk how possible it is for opponents to aerial out before the bair hits (even if they can, most people won't cause they won't expect it and it's hard to react to even if they do).

yeah i totally agree with the 5 second burst thing. the longest combo i think i have ever held was probably about 6 seconds and most of that was them being in the air rather than me actually hitting them. i've never tried straight uthrow to uair, generally because i haven't played squirtle enough to know where my opponent will go after every uair. i usually go upthrow/uptilt/(uptilt depending on DI or %)/Fair (or Ftilt). then just WD around and juggle and trap with up smashes and SS'ing. After you said the pikachu thing i really saw that. they have a lot of similarities! how much do you think squirtle would benefit if he had and actual spike in his arsenal?

 

[dettadeus]

bubble is as good as an actual spike in squirtle's case because of its ridiculous range and how well it covers ledges

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

It also covers ledge options reeeeeeally well if you time it right, characters need a really fast get-up attack (****ing Bowser...) I find myself using bubble at the ledge as it doesn't give the opponent much room to go somewhere and gives me a moment to think again.

 

[Sync8699]

Congrats to Squirtle on currently being the most popular character in the P:M character discussion forum! It's all the shades. They're an extra incentive to JV 5-stock every match.

 

[bubbaking]

Did anyone notice how slooooow SWF just got, or is it just me?

I'm the complete opposite. lol Squirtle has a really good WD, movement techniques, and knockdown tactics (Bubble zomg), but I am pretty awful at using them. Once I get a knockdown, grab, or uair, though, I'm good to go. I did a MM against a ROB, and I remember the third game I started off with a 90%+ streak from just a 2-3 "segment" combo. You rarely see full-blown 02d combos in Melee or P:M, but having a character that can reliable convert positional advantage into another hit is almost just as good as being able to combo straight through. I didn't have much problem converting from uthrow/knockdowns into utilt/uair chains.

I know you said you didn't like uthrow/uair, which seemed weird to me because that was my most reliable combo starter. Maybe you should try mixing up the timing of your uair during your jump/DJ if you can't seem to chain uairs until you run out of jumps and plats to land on. It's reminiscent of Melee Pikachu, but Squirtle's uair doesn't do a measly 2%, and he can end with a pretty strong Waterfall KO. I think you can also combo the sourspot at the end of the move into a bair, but idk how possible it is for opponents to aerial out before the bair hits (even if they can, most people won't cause they won't expect it and it's hard to react to even if they do).

Thank GOODNESS somebody has some sense in this thread! Hey B0nes, I was playing Peter's/Kaffei's Sheik, Peach, and Marth with Squirtle (I managed to beat his Sheik and Marth, which I think is crazy), and he thinks that Squirtle is really good! You and I have to become the best Squirts in MD/VA, man. That means we'll need to take out cmart and anyone else in our way.

I don't know, I have a very intuitive sense for Squirtle's movement that seems to have carried over from melee. I don't have to focus on what I'm doing at all. It's just that his combos are bad, most of them rely on the opponent messing up/can be easily avoided with proper DI. In order to build up any damage at all you have to continually outpredict your opponent, which is mentally taxing and impractical at a competitive level. I'm sure an amazing player would be able to do well with him, but like Bones said, success with Squirtle usually comes in 5 second spurts, mostly because after 5 seconds your opponent adapts and you have to figure them out all over again. Bubble >>> anything else he has.

You probably aren't actually putting time in to learn what works and what doesn't. Saying you just have an "intuitive sense" makes me believe this. As for having to "continually outpredict your opponent, which is mentally taxing and impractical at a competitive level," I shall point you over towards Axe and Pika who have to out-predict their opponents almost all the time. Most 'positional chars', like Samus in Melee and DDD, require a LOT of mental effort as well. Gotta be ready to pitch in! Squirt doesn't require as much work as those three chars I just named, though. If you are remaining unpredictable with Squirt's mobility, which you should be, your opponent shouldn't be able to just adapt.

On other news, Squirt is a MONSTER in doubles.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I have an intuitive sense because I played ICs in melee. His movement is very easy and natural for me.

I shall point you over towards Axe and Pika who have to out-predict their opponents almost all the time.

Proving my point, much? An amazing player can do well with a terrible character. I said an amazing player could probably do well with Squirtle. That doesn't mean Squirtle is good.

I'll say, the one thing I was wrong about was his u-air being bad. The knockback is fine, although I feel the speed/range could still be drastically improved because he barely has any set-ups for it.

 

[bubbaking]

And I play Samus and a good bit of Luigi in Melee. Playing another slidy character does NOT give you that "intuitive sense"; it makes you already used to that kind of movement (on the GROUND). Totally different movesets alone change everything, and then there's the fact that Squirtle has much better aerial mobility and also has a bunch of momentum-changing moves. Squirt is way too different from every character in Smash for ANYONE to be claiming that kind of 'intuition' without some serious usage. I personally think that Bones has a more intuitive sense for the character than you do. After all, he's the one who's actually hitting the combos (I'm the ROB he MM'd btw ).

As I said, Squirtle is a much better character than ALL THREE of the other chars I mentioned in my earlier post, including Pika. Having to think a lot doesn't make a character bad; it means you have to work for your success. IMO, Squirtle doesn't have any bad moves.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I think you have no idea how I play, because you haven't played me or even seen videos of me. I have been playing smash for a long time, and I know what I'm talking about when I say I have an intuitive sense for a character's movement. Telling me I don't know what I'm doing is not productive conversation.

I do land combos with Squirtle. When I say his combos are bad, I am taking into account DI, and comparing him to other characters. The difference might be in the quality of our opponents.

 

[bubbaking]

Intuitive sense for a character's movement and actually knowing how combos work like the back of your hand are two totally different things. If they weren't, many of us would be Hax-level combo fiends off of single hits. I'm not making assumptions. I'm going off of your statement, "I have an intuitive sense because I played ICs in melee." Like, that doesn't mean anything. As for the "quality of our opponents", I don't think you get much better opponents than JCaesar, cmart, and some others regularly, so don't even go there. Some of my personal friends are also pretty darn good at the game. You have no idea how I play, either.

You're not exactly facilitating "productive conversation" anyway, you know. We're looking for techs and strats to utilize and ways to improve. Your posts strike me as one who is lamenting the 'bad things' of Squirtle, which some of us disagree with.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Did I ever say anything about knowing how combos work like the back of my hand? I said I have an intuitive sense for Squirtle's movement. It was in response to Bones' comment about Squirtle players being distracted by all his movement options.

I mentioned ICs because their movement is similar to Squirtle's in many ways. I'm used to having control over large, jolty bursts of movement, but also knowing when to use smaller, more precise movements. If you don't understand the parallels, just forget about it and move on. You can take me at my word or ignore it. Saying it doesn't mean anything because you don't understand it also isn't productive.

Do you actually beat those people with Squirtle? Or are you just name dropping? Look, I'm not trying to turn this into an ad hominem back-and-forth. We should probably stop before this devolves any further. But for the record, you did make tons of assumptions.

Sorry you feel my posts are negative. I'm offering some critiques of his character design because this game is still in the developmental stages. If you want to be naive and act like Squirtle is top tier and invest all your time and energy into working with an incoherent, underpowered moveset, be my guest. I have been experimenting with the character and improving on my own. But I don't know how much serious strategy development can take place until his design is fixed.

 

[Bones0]

Anyone who thinks they've figured out the general way to use Squirtle's movement is kidding themselves. Shell shifting opens up so many other options that other characters simply cannot use, and when you also throw in possibilities for Withdraw, you get a bunch of situations where Squirtle's movement is nothing less than top tier. An ideal balance between DDing, fox trotting, WDing, SSing, and Withdraw won't be achieved for many years, if ever. The only proof I feel is necessary to back up such a claim is the fact that even after 12 years, every single character in Melee has movement options that continue to evolve. Even with characters that have very simple, limited options continue to see great change. Falco's DD is awful and his WD is mediocre, yet Falco DDing in 2013 is leagues ahead of where it was just a year or two ago.

I'm not trying to posit that Squirtle is top tier because he has a lot of movement flexibility or that there is nothing about him that could be changed for the better, but acting like you have even scratched the surface of his potential is way more naive than someone seeing the potential for him to be amazing. If you really believe he has glaring design issues, you'd probably get more satisfaction out of explaining why his flaws need to be changed. After all, it's not just enough to point out a characters' flaws. Every character has flaws that get exploited; it's the very nature of the game. In order for something to be changed, the flaw has to be holding back the character in such a critical way that worse players are able to consistently win against that character. Even if this was the case of the results, it's virtually meaningless this early in the metagame. Some characters have 10+ years of development because they are almost identical to Melee, and others have a few months head start on the newer demo characters.

 

[Kyu Puff]

but when players don't have those habits yet, they are spending a lot of brainpower focusing on them instead of their opponent, or they are just messing up completely because they aren't doing them at all. Like with all things, you have to go from unconscious incompetence to conscious incompetence, to conscious competence, and then unconscious competence.

This is what I was addressing. Yes, Squirtle's movement is amazing and there are a lot of different options which can be difficult to sort out. All I said was that when I play, I don't have to spend a lot of brainpower focusing on his movement because it already feels natural to me. I did not claim to be a Squirtle master. Now can we please stop putting words in my mouth?

 

[Strong Badam]

why are you arguing with bubbaking? just put him on your ignore list like the rest of us.

 

[bubbaking]

Somehow, Strong Bad ends up in every thread/group I ever post in, be it on a Squirtle thread, a Melee thread for a char he doesn't play, or even a group in Facebook for a region he doesn't live in. It's seriously like the dude is stalking me, just so he can take a jab at me whenever I say something. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if he suddenly started posting on Brawl threads just to keep up this trend.....

#ChasedByBronies

 

[bubbaking]

Do you actually beat those people with Squirtle? Or are you just name dropping?

Do I take games off of Vanguard, SOJ, and co. with Squirtle? Why yes, yes I do, multiple games in fact. I have an almost completely win record with SOJ in any match that involves my Squirtle, out of the times we've met and played each other.

Alright, I apologize for any assumptions, but I never said I believe Squirtle is anything near Top Tier (that's reserved for the spacees and Sheik and maybe Peach and Marth), so you should stop with the assumptions yourself. <__<

 

[Bones0]

This is what I was addressing. Yes, Squirtle's movement is amazing and there are a lot of different options which can be difficult to sort out. All I said was that when I play, I don't have to spend a lot of brainpower focusing on his movement because it already feels natural to me. I did not claim to be a Squirtle master. Now can we please stop putting words in my mouth?

That quote was about players who don't have second nature habits for basic movement. I wasn't talking about complex strategic movements at all. No one is saying you claim to be a Squirtle master, but saying you don't have to focus on Squirtle's movement implies you are either gdlk with Squirtle despite him being so new, or you aren't utilizing his movement properly. You can't even be decent at Melee/P:M without active focus on your movement. See: PP's concentration when DDing.

 

[Kyu Puff]

That quote was about players who don't have second nature habits for basic movement.

And that is what I was replying to. I don't understand why you keep conflating "having an intuitive/second-nature feel for his movement" with "understanding and utilizing all of his movement options optimally." I wasn't talking about the second thing either.

All I said was that when I play, I don't have to spend a lot of brainpower focusing on his movement because it already feels natural to me. Now can we please stop putting words in my mouth?

There is a huge difference between focusing on your positioning and spending a lot of brainpower on basic movement. You're acting like I said, "I am so good that I have transcended the need for concentration while I play smash," but that's not what I said, I said "his movement feels intuitive to me." I think we can be done here.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

A lot of Squirtle's mobility options transfer over from Brawl, as an aside.

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, but he gains a whole bunch of additional ones from Melee, as another aside.

 

[JayMan-X]

Someone should make a Squirtle TAS. I'm sure it'd be insane.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yeah, but he gains a whole bunch of additional ones from Melee, as another aside.

Anything he gained from Melee physics can be applied by many other characters and is generally considered trivial in the case of "secrets that have yet to be unlocked." The same could be said for the Brawl-based movement tricks, except for the fact that nobody really played Brawl Squirtle, so everyone hopeful is expecting to find hidden potential in the combination.

 

[bubbaking]

Except there hasn't been a character as slippery in Melee since Luigi and the ICs, and even they are lacking compared to Squirt's mobility (Luigi's aerial mobility is a lot worse and I don't think the ICs are as slippery on the ground). I see what you're saying, though.

 

[traffic.]

squirtle has access to a moonwalk, a special pivot that builds momentum, an armored dash, the 2nd best wavedash in the game, and has a tiny hitbox to top it off. considering its only news that people have started PLAYING squirtle, I dont think we've seen anything like what could/will develop with that many mobility options and more time.

i was wavemooning* (holding a, moonwalking, flicking c-stick to repeat moonwalk ) around with all the characters and i stumbled upon a trick that basically started with building up momentum with a few flicks, and then charging fsmash at [undetermined, unrepeated] point in the moonwalking animation, which sent him sliding across the stage into position to release the smash. it was new and quite fast and was the accidental result of a few weird experiments with input/animation breaking, so i'm hoping we can figure out how to identify and implement it. i was able to get pretty comfortable with the input (clawing a so i can flick cstick) pretty quickly and we've had some lols with it so far.




* - :v

 

[Bones0]

This skins need to happen:

Sqwartortle

Sqyduck

Sqirtodude

Squirtdong

Source: http://pokemon.alexonsager.net/

 

[Kyu Puff]

lol

Squirtapod (aka turtle)

Squirtonat

Squoliwag

 

[K@$h]

darn they font have the 4th gen pokemon... i was thinking you could combine him with the hippo guy Squirtapotumus

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, they don't even have all the first gen so I'm pretty sure more will be added.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

's doubtful. That's been around for at least a couple years, I believe.

 

[MegaGuy]

I hope this is the right place to ask this: I was doing some tests with Bowser's crawl armor, and I was wrapping up my tests with Squirtle. When I got to testing Squirt's >100% ledge attack, and I couldn't for the life of me get it to hit Bowser. I tried teetering on the ledge, jumping on top of it, all with no luck. Is the hitbox just in a really weird place, or is it a bug? Thanks in advance

 

[standardtoaster]

Wow. Thanks for catching this. Unfortunately, you are correct. In 2.5 there is no hitbox on the > 100 ledge attack. This will definitely be fixed in the next version.

 

[MegaGuy]

Good to know. Glad I could help, I guess.

 

[bubbaking]

Wow, I guess nobody noticed this 'cause there's really no good reason to use Squirt's >100% ledge attack ever. Still, that's pretty significant.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yeah, Melee's plethora of ledge options suck outside of waveland -> something.

 

[Bones0]

Some characters have good GUAs from the ledge, and any character can use their <100% ledgestand to good effect. There's even a few chars that can use ledgejumps (Puff and Ganon are the ones I see the most). Then you have edgeguarding scenarios where they are all pretty useful depending on the matchup.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Exceptions to the rule, unfortunately. I wish the ledge game would've been expanded for the whole cast in a healthy way instead of "abuse invincibility to make it work."

 

[Bones0]

Invincibility is an absolute necessity because without it you can attack people as they grab the ledge and edgeguarding becomes stupid easy. They just need to reduce the cooldown on ledge jumps and ledge attacks, and speed up ledge rolls. I think people underestimate how close to really good those options are because of the fact that you are able to keep your jump. Every other ledge option you see in Melee basically requires forfeiting your double jump which is why getting off the ledge is so impossible for some characters. Letting them ledge jump and have an option to DJ or attack before their opponent easily reacts would create a lot of good mixups that are fairly low risk because getting hit means you still have your DJ, and getting your opponent to miss could mean a serious counterattack.

 

[0RLY]

I assume general discussion is the right place to ask things...

How do you guys deal with Sonic? Sonic is just so good at... everything D:
Does Squirtle have an option fast enough to outright beat Sonic's spindash(es)? I've just been using withdraw to trade, because trading seems to be much better than anything else...
Can Squirtle edgeguard Sonic? Every attack I do just results in Sonic recovering higher than before. I resorted to using Usmash just for more damage and potential star ko, since he can recover from everything.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Planet Piss]

I assume general discussion is the right place to ask things...

How do you guys deal with Sonic? Sonic is just so good at... everything D:
Does Squirtle have an option fast enough to outright beat Sonic's spindash(es)? I've just been using withdraw to trade, because trading seems to be much better than anything else...
Can Squirtle edgeguard Sonic? Every attack I do just results in Sonic recovering higher than before. I resorted to using Usmash just for more damage and potential star ko, since he can recover from everything.

Thanks in advance.

1. Place controller on the ground
2. Turn chair to face opponent
3. Open eyes as wide as possible while showing teeth and extending lower jaw
4. Grunt loudly until opponent leaves the venue out of fear

But seriously I didn't even know how annoying Squirtle could be while I mained Sonic because Sonic treats almost every character the same. I'm no expert but I don't think you stand a chance to do anything other than killing him through the ceiling or by taking him to a small stage like FoD or WarioWare.

Also, what is "edgeguard Sonic"?

 

[Inty17]

I assume general discussion is the right place to ask things...

How do you guys deal with Sonic? Sonic is just so good at... everything D:
Does Squirtle have an option fast enough to outright beat Sonic's spindash(es)? I've just been using withdraw to trade, because trading seems to be much better than anything else...
Can Squirtle edgeguard Sonic? Every attack I do just results in Sonic recovering higher than before. I resorted to using Usmash just for more damage and potential star ko, since he can recover from everything.

Thanks in advance.

I think the Sonic matchup is really really hard. Simply because his run's faster than Squirtle's side B means he can catch up and punish ending lag that not a lot of characters can capitalize on. Side B can retreat really well, but there's not a lot of places to retreat to with Sonic's ground speed.

I spend a lot of time in my shield against Sonic. Squirtle's hitboxes are small, but he has up smash and up b OOS, and he also has pretty good escape options with SH side b out of shield.

I think Squirtle's main problem is his SH height. It's hard to put out a disjointed bair to edgeguard when it takes a while to land and do it again. There's also a lot more lag on the end of a bair than I originally thought when first I picked him up too. Since his SH is so high, I don't really think there's any excuse for him to not be able to SH bair and waveland in the same jump. Bair's pretty good for walling sonic, but it's too slow to keep using, and I always find myself in my shield again.

Usmash is pretty much always the answer to anyone's approach in any direction