Squirtle Advanced Techniques, Strategies, and Cool Names for Things - Video Added!

[TheReflexWonder]

Charged Water Gun takes way too long to finish for it to realistically help recovery in a situation where it's needed.

 

[bubbaking]

Sliding is NOT a bad thing, not even in the slightest. Samus slides, Luigi slides, G&W slides, the ICs slide. Slidiness is actually a good thing because of edge-cancelling. Hydroplane is the BOMB! I can't even count how many times I've caught opponent's off-guard with a full-stage hydro-usmash straight out of a retreat. His recovery is somewhat mediocre, but for a character with an on-stage game as solid as his, it's actually very good. His wall-cling makes it pretty darn good on walled stages and he has a good number of recovery mix-ups. His range is almost completely circumvented by how easily he can get into holes and blind spots in the opponent's defense. It's also really easy to just weave around and avoid the opponent while looking for that opening. In that regard, his hydroplane is just sooooo good! Hydrograbs cover so much space. Squirt's grab game in general is just really good. His grab range isn't bad and his mobility accentuates it.

Low weight IS a problem, so don't get hit. That's the premise of his shades, isn't it? "Hard to get kills"? That just simply isn't true. Hydroplane usmash, fsmash reads/tech-chases, dthrow, fair, Waterfall, gimps with bair and Bubble, Squirtle is actually REALLY strong. Also, Squirt's range isn't a problem when you use his multitude of safe, range-y things, like Bubble and bair. Bubble is stupidly safe against most of the cast, and you can mix up between the aerial ones and the grounded ones. Any 'weakness' Squirtle has to CCing is fake. He has a multitude of moves to get around it. Dair, dsmash, sideB (safe on-hit), SS, Bubble, grab, etc.

Squirtle is really darn good, the best of the three PT pokes without a doubt. He just takes a while to get used to. He also really doesn't die much earlier than anyone else if you play smart and don't get hit by big, telegraphed moves.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You're playing against bad players if a shellshift -> U-Smash is hitting anyone in a not-highly-compromising situation, like after their recovery or something. :/

Squirtle's not that good. May be better than Ivysaur, but, that's not saying much. Charizard is noticeably better, regardless.

 

[bubbaking]

Can you point out where in my post I EVER mentioned pulling off SS > usmash? I don't even think that's a thing. You're literally putting words into my mouth that I never said. I think you're mistaking hydroplane for shellshift, and if you are, I find that very.....amusing.

Charged Water Gun takes way too long to finish for it to realistically help recovery in a situation where it's needed.

Lolz, you're simply not using it correctly then. You use it when you're really far away from the stage (preferably after high DI) where it can't be punished. It lets Squirt cover a good bit of distance so that he has more options when he's closer to the stage. I believe WD makes Squirt fall faster when he's using it (don't quote me on that, but it really seems that way), so it lets him get horizontal momentum without causing this problem.


I've used this recovery tool and I've personally witnessed cmart use this recovery strat (he's actually the one who gave me the idea) and it works really well. It's not "needed", per se, but it definitely helps because it gives Squirt more options in a scenario where he'd normally be required to WD, which actually cuts his options once he nears the stage. Funnily enough, like vBrawl MK, ALL of Squirt's specials can be used for recovery (but without putting him into free-fall).

 

[Vashimus]

So this is where Bubba has been hiding. You cheeky devil.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Can you point out where in my post I EVER mentioned pulling off SS > usmash? I don't even think that's a thing. You're literally putting words into my mouth that I never said. I think you're mistaking hydroplane for shellshift, and if you are, I find that very.....amusing.

Hydroplane is the BOMB! I can't even count how many times I've caught opponent's off-guard with a full-stage hydro-usmash straight out of a retreat.

You cannot get much of a slide on a U-Smash without doing a full shellshift (which is the basis of a Hydroplaned U-Smash) in Project M, or you're either lying or you're wrong. I have no reason to think that you're lying, so I guess that just makes you wrong. You tell me.

Lolz, you're simply not using [Water Gun] correctly then. You use it when you're really far away from the stage (preferably after high DI) where it can't be punished. It lets Squirt cover a good bit of distance so that he has more options when he's closer to the stage. I believe WD makes Squirt fall faster when he's using it (don't quote me on that, but it really seems that way), so it lets him get horizontal momentum without causing this problem.

I've used this recovery tool and I've personally witnessed cmart use this recovery strat (he's actually the one who gave me the idea) and it works really well. It's not "needed", per se, but it definitely helps because it gives Squirt more options in a scenario where he'd normally be required to WD, which actually cuts his options once he nears the stage. Funnily enough, like vBrawl MK, ALL of Squirt's specials can be used for recovery (but without putting him into free-fall).

As for Water Gun, Squirtle's horizontal aerial speed and mobility are both high enough where you aren't really strapped for options at heights where it would help your recovery. In those cases, Water Gun is arguably more useful when shooting it forward, because then you can hit the opponent away. As for firing backward for recovery, the opponent can hit you if they anticipate it, so that's another thing you must worry about. It's just not that great for that (not that that is a bad thing).

 

[Juushichi]

This exchange between abrasive Bubbaking and Reflex is amusing to me for all the right reasons.

This squirtle tech discussion is interesting, though.

 

[Translucent]

Reflex do you have any matches of yourself playing versus a human opponent yet? I'm interested in seeing your playstyle with Squirtle.

 

[dettadeus]

all i gotta say is

squirtle ftilt master race

probably my favorite squirtle move, it's just so amazing

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Reflex do you have any matches of yourself playing versus a human opponent yet? I'm interested in seeing your playstyle with Squirtle.

I almost never get to play people in my city these days, which is unfortunate.

There's a tournament this coming weekend, however, and I was going to try to make use of the character there.

all i gotta say is

squirtle ftilt master race

probably my favorite squirtle move, it's just so amazing

A shame the cooldown is noticeably longer in PM than it was in Brawl, and the added power makes it basically impossible to follow up on.

Still an above-average move, but, I was totally spoiled in Brawl.

 

[bubbaking]

Reflex, did the ftilt give his tail intangibility in vBrawl?

You cannot get much of a slide on a U-Smash without doing a full shellshift (which is the basis of a Hydroplaned U-Smash) in Project M, or you're either lying or you're wrong. I have no reason to think that you're lying, so I guess that just makes you wrong. You tell me.

They way you worded "SS > usmash" infers that I'm hitting the opponent into the usmash with the SS hit, since ">" denotes a combo. I'm not wrong or lying. You were misleading. <__< I fail to see how people wouldn't get taken off-guard by the surprise factor of the hydro-usmash. I've landed it several times on good opponents. You don't just use it in an obvious way. If Marth tries to space an fsmash and whiffs, you can use it. If an opponent is recovering from the ledge, you can catch him with this. If Peach is floating at that precarious height and distance, you can use it. I literally do not see how hydro-usmash is not a very good surprise KO move. You also have to remember that it doesn't have to be on people who are on the same level as you. They can be above you, on a platform for instance, and you can still use it. I've punished landings and stuff on plats with it on YS, YiB, and DC (probably more, but those sprung up in my memory first). With all that range and speed, how does hydro-usmash only work on "bad players"? I feel like we aren't even playing with the same character here.

As for Water Gun, Squirtle's horizontal aerial speed and mobility are both high enough where you aren't really strapped for options at heights where it would help your recovery. In those cases, Water Gun is arguably more useful when shooting it forward, because then you can hit the opponent away. As for firing backward for recovery, the opponent can hit you if they anticipate it, so that's another thing you must worry about. It's just not that great for that (not that that is a bad thing).

First off, I'm not the only person making great use of WG for recovery like this. As I said earlier, cmart was initially the one using WG in this manner and I'm just taking after him. "Heights where it would help your recovery"? You can use it from roughly the height of an FJ above the stage from really far out and the WG will help your recovery. A short WD will make you fall faster and doing nothing would definitely be the worst option. In that case, you most definitely are strapped for options because anything other than WG will land you pretty far below the stage line. We most probably are not thinking of the same situation (or character) here. If you use it from far enough out, the opponent wouldn't be able to punish it without fully committing offstage.

This exchange between abrasive Bubbaking and Reflex is amusing to me for all the right reasons.

How were my posts before this one "abrasive"?

all i gotta say is

squirtle ftilt master race

probably my favorite squirtle move, it's just so amazing

I've been saying this, man! Remember my post about how Squirtle just 'pushes' the opponent around, especially after a missed tech? One of my favorite 'jank combos' is WD > fair (knocks opponent down) > ftilt the missed tech to send the opponent offstage. It's so funny because it all happens so fast.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Reflex, did the ftilt give his tail intangibility in vBrawl?

They way you worded "SS > usmash" infers that I'm hitting the opponent into the usmash with the SS hit, since ">" denotes a combo. I'm not wrong or lying. You were misleading. <__< I fail to see how people wouldn't get taken off-guard by the surprise factor of the hydro-usmash. I've landed it several times on good opponents. You don't just use it in an obvious way. If Marth tries to space an fsmash and whiffs, you can use it. If an opponent is recovering from the ledge, you can catch him with this. If Peach is floating at that precarious height and distance, you can use it. I literally do not see how hydro-usmash is not a very good surprise KO move. You also have to remember that it doesn't have to be on people who are on the same level as you. They can be above you, on a platform for instance, and you can still use it. I've punished landings and stuff on plats with it on YS, YiB, and DC (probably more, but those sprung up in my memory first). With all that range and speed, how does hydro-usmash only work on "bad players"? I feel like we aren't even playing with the same character here.

First off, I'm not the only person making great use of WG for recovery like this. As I said earlier, cmart was initially the one using WG in this manner and I'm just taking after him. "Heights where it would help your recovery"? You can use it from roughly the height of an FJ above the stage from really far out and the WG will help your recovery. A short WD will make you fall faster and doing nothing would definitely be the worst option. In that case, you most definitely are strapped for options because anything other than WG will land you pretty far below the stage line. We most probably are not thinking of the same situation (or character) here. If you use it from far enough out, the opponent wouldn't be able to punish it without fully committing offstage.

How were my posts before this one "abrasive"?

I've been saying this, man! Remember my post about how Squirtle just 'pushes' the opponent around, especially after a missed tech? One of my favorite 'jank combos' is WD > fair (knocks opponent down) > ftilt the missed tech to send the opponent offstage. It's so funny because it all happens so fast.

I think all of his tail attacks in Brawl had an intangible tail.

-> is an arrow that implies one goes to the other. "Going across the stage" means that you did a full shellshift into a U-Smash, which is a Hydroplaned U-Smash, which is what you denied using, which is why I emphasized one going into the other. This combination takes at least 25 frames (and is probably longer) and is therefore really, really slow in the neutral position. Hitting someone with that isn't impossible, but it's not something you can do in the neutral position unless your opponent is making obviously-bad choices, like Marth F-Smash as a basic spacing tool, Peach doing long-lasting aerials in the air (she can D-Air or N-Air you beforehand from a float, and if she's too high to manage that on reaction, they're a bad Peach player). If a player sees you shellshifting with the end result having you move toward them, what's to stop them from just throwing out an attack, a pivot grab, a retreating aerial...? It doesn't poke well enough to manage and is way too slow as a surprise KO option straight from neutral position. Again, it sounds like it takes a person who doesn't understand your options or their options well enough to catch them with it.

I didn't say Water Gun was useless in a recovery position, but it certainly isn't that great, either. Again, it's not hard for most characters to intercept it from that height (they have no issue with fully committing since you're stuck doing Water Gun in the opposite direction for more than a full second), and the Forward-B/Up-B mix-up is rather good by itself, given that Forward-B changes your trajectory sharply and Aqua Jet can catch ledges and can edge-cancel platforms.

If you find my responses amusing or hard to believe, it makes you abrasive because it's saying you don't take me seriously. I imagine that's what he's (and I'm) picking up on.

If one of your favorite combinations require the opponent to miss a tech after you land a F-Air, that doesn't do much for the purported not-bad-ness of the people you play. F-Air doesn't really set up for sudden tech situations unless there's a platform.

 

[bubbaking]

In the case of a move like SS that has a hitbox as well other effects, one really needs to specify, I think. In all honesty, you could have just said hydroplane usmash or something. You play Brawl, man! You already know the term.

It's more like missed techs and techs away. I also just do it straight out of WDs that knock the opponent down (mid-high %'s). It's kinda hard to react to WD knock-downs because it knocks the opponent at such a low trajectory, like Diddy's bananas.

I found your post amusing because I AM taking you seriously. If that's honestly what is being labelled as abrasive here, then I fail to see how your recent posts have been anything but that. <___<

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I try not to assume that people on a Project M subforum know the ins and outs of a Brawl character. Also, you said "hydroplane" and "full-stage hydro u-smash," so I was trying to make sure their meanings were clarified, especially since Forward Hydroplaning cannot be done in Demo 2.5 (though it would be nice to see it make a return in the future).

It still isn't hard to tech, especially when Squirtle only has a couple moves that would end up grounding people in that position. A wavedash -> F-Tilt would take something like 16 frames to complete, and that's ignoring the time they fly from the attack, so it's still not difficult to see coming. Of course it's useful as a mix-up, but, people miss those kinds of techs more due to a lack of matchup experience rather than it just being difficult to tech.

 

[dettadeus]

You can do a forward Hydroplane, but the boost isn't anywhere near as good as it was in Brawl.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I suppose it's still a jump-canceled Up-Smash, but you get a significantly greater distance via wavedashing, so I'm not really inclined to call it a "hydroplane," since it's more about having any momentum than the beginning of a shellshift, specifically.

 

[traffic.]

and I think he's referring to Withdraw > fair > ftilt.

 

[bubbaking]

Traffic got it, I think. I wasn't referring to teching the ftilt. I was referring to teching the WD, which is what I said has the super low trajectory. I've even seen high-level players get toppled by that more than a little when they were hit. Also, I said that the 'combo' works well on techs away as well.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

That doesn't make it something they should be getting hit by. "High-level play" isn't really a thing that exists yet, because no one has a full set of matchup experience, especially for a character as (currently) mediocre as Squirtle. Also, a lot of characters' metagames are really young, too, so it's really common for people not to understand what they should be doing, both as and against Squirtle.

 

[bubbaking]

Well yeah, but if that was the case, everyone would always tech Diddy's bananas (which definitely isn't the case). They send opponents at pretty much the same trajectory. Also, dare I say that you think all the Pokemon are "mediocre" because you either main them now or did so in Brawl?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Bananas are much faster, have a much greater range, and send people at an even sharper angle. Unpredictability means a lot.

No, I just call them as I see them; my views are through the eyes of a top Project M player (as little as that means when the metagame is so young). I don't main Squirtle, nor do I try to see them in relation to their Brawl metagames. Charizard's not mediocre. Squirtle and Ivysaur just leave a lot to be desired.

 

[Rat]

Yo reflex,
So your Squirtle video recommends using a mixture of Shellshift, Moonwalk, and WD into tilts/grabs. This makes sense to me - Squirtle doesn't have great range, his run is slow, and his short hop is floaty.

The problem I have with it getting into the position where all those movement options are viable. Max distance Shellshift Ftilt/Dtilt moves squirtle forward only a bit. The moonwalk is slightly better in this regard. (The WD is the best.)

By the time Shellshift and Moonwalk Ftilt are viable you're already in range to JC Grab, Crawl Dtilt, Walk forward Ftilt, Run Jump Aerial. Those just seem faster and better options. Shellshifting/Moonwalking that close does give some indirection to your attacks which is good.

So yeah, How would you suggest getting into that position? It seems like squirtle would be inside the opponents effective range by the time Shellshift Ftilt becomes viable.

Maybe i'm missing something here? (The Balls to just do it maybe?)

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You have to mix it into basic "move forward and poke." The options I listed things aren't effective specifically just because they're faster than his walk--They work in the same way that many characters' dashdances work. The different mobility options he has keeps him from being predictable, which means that they can't just react to you.

Dashdancing is also pretty useful within it because it's a way to turn around and barely inch forward while taking VERY little time, as well as keeping in motion (and therefore staying unpredictable). It's just another thing you can do into and out of the options I listed.

The important thing to note is that Squirtle is generally outranged, so you have to get used to baiting moves and making sure you can't be reacted to in order to reliably do stuff. Remember, they're faster than you when moving in one direction, but since you can move forward and backward really seamlessly, that's usually the best way to manage, or at least to condition people in order to be able to do the stuff you "really" want to do.

That may sound kind of vague...Do I need to think about rewording it?

 

[Tmacc]

Yeah, I honestly don't think "as is" Squirtle is a high tier character. His range hurts, his fall speed/weight seem janky, and at times he has trouble getting kills.

But there is a ton of meta to be developed, so we will see how it goes.

 

[Rat]

@Reflex, That makes sense despite being vague lol. It's hard to discuss smash with text- It's visual, reactionary, space and timing based.

I read your post as being about footsies and/or the neutral game in general. Not the hitting your opponent with specific tactics or move sequences (Shellshift -> Tilt). You suggest to build squirtle's neutral game around his many ground based movement options and his fast pokes.

Yeah. I think i understand. Each one of those (SS, WD, DD, Moonwalk) can move you forward, bait out an attack, adjust your attack spacing, and be a flurry of motion.
Yep. That's gonna take awhile to practice and get comfortable with moving in and out of each one lol. (Specially at a good time.)




Other random squirtle thought:
<3 Withdraw. Probably because I loved 2.1 sonic's sideB and his has lots of similar qualities.
Only bowser's upB OoS has been able to punish Withdraw on shield. I'm pretty sure I could space it better to avoid that garbage. Space better by hitting the top of his shield (bouncing off higher.)

 

[Oro?!]

Sometimes you just gotta hold forward and walk towards.

 

[dettadeus]

Not sure if anyone's noticed this yet, but you can grab the ledge from running towards it by crouching, sliding the control stick back, and then crawling backwards off the ledge.
If done properly it looks like you go straight from your run into a ledgegrab. Seems to be significantly faster than wavedashing onto the ledge in certain situations.

Pretty sure this is well known already but you can also Breverse Waterfall after running off the ledge and grab it instantly as well.

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, both of those are known. Also, the crouch-crawl one you just described is actually a combination of two different techs, both of which grab the ledge, one of them being even faster than the one you just specified, I believe.

1. Run towards the ledge, crouch, stand up and turn around. You don't need to crawl backwards; you'll slide off the stage and grab the ledge. Of course, WDing backwards speeds up the process. I usually like to use this tech to turn around while still travelling towards the ledge. Then I'll WD backwards to quickly cover the final distance. I believe this is also another way to pull off retreating attacks.
2. Crawl backwards all the way to the ledge. When you stop crouching, you will instantly fall off the stage and grab the ledge. I believe this mechanic exists for all characters who can crawl. This is an ultra-easy method of grabbing the ledge, but it seems pretty slow to set up.

However, I believe the fastest way to ledgehog for most characters is to just RAR WD backwards to the ledge. In the case of Squirtle, this is fast, but an even faster way may probably be to 'slingdash' backwards.

 

[Dudex11a]

Correct me if this has already been mentioned but I found this a little bit ago. When Squirtle walljumps close to the ledge and then up-Bs into it Squirtle can autocancel the ledge so he immediately grabs the edge. Just thought I'd mention that.

 

[bubbaking]

It's not only from walljumps. If Squirtle upB's from right under the ledge, the upB will cancel and he will snap to the ledge. I like to stall sometimes with ledgehop upB's in this manner. It seems apparent that it's a glitch, but I actually think it would be pretty cool if it was left in. Doesn't really hurt anything, anyway.

 

[Dudex11a]

Cool, didn't realize that it could be done anytime. Thanks for that correction.

 

[dettadeus]

I think Squirtle kind of oscillates up and down in the startup as he's climbing, and so the game reads it as Squirtle moving downwards and thus he can grab the ledge.

 

[Bones0]

I think ledge grabbing just doesn't work properly at all. Can't Marth and a bunch of other characters grab the ledge from behind at the end of their up-B?

 

[dettadeus]

That's a reverse grab-box issue tied to the characters, not the ledges.

 

[traffic.]

Correction:

Entering special fall has a frame window (10? couldnt specify #) that can ledgegrab for all characters, making a sweetspot ledgegrab possible for anyone from both angles.

 

[bubbaking]

I think this game would be fine if it was called Project S(mash) instead of Project M(elee). Too many people want this game to be too similar to Melee, and I don't blame them, because that is kind of what many of P:M's developers have fooled some people into thinking. Why did I bring up this seemingly unrelated topic? Well, I could see what Bones was getting at.

 

[PandaCobo]

How does the nair rate? How useful is the nair?

 

[dettadeus]

It works fairly well for stuff like gimps, two-hit strings (combos nicely into ftilt) and shield crossups, but it bairly compares to some of his other aerials.

 

[PandaCobo]

It seems to work well with a jc grab. Is that just me or is that something that is viable.

 

[mYzeALot]

I've only ever used nair as a crossup or to try and gimp someone who is recovering. It has very short range and a lot of the time you're better off using either a fair or bair.