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Chiroz

Tier Lists? Foolish...
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Well, this blew up. I'll do my best to respond to everything. OK, firstly, I'd like to point out that top-level competitive players can be wrong. Remember when Sonic was low-tier in Brawl? Or when Luigi was a terrible character in Smash 4? Or how about when Olimar was mid-tier in Brawl? When Dr. Mario was inferior to Mario in Melee? When Smash 64 as a whole was unbalanced? There are many, many more examples that escape me at the moment, and that's not even counting all of the incorrect, individual opinions that competitive players have had over the years. Top-level competitive players can be right, but they can also be dead wrong. Sometimes, popular opinion is correct, and sometimes it isn't. You can't say that one is always right and one is always wrong, because, simply put, the world doesn't work like that.

To answer your two questions, I suppose you're right. In Samus's case, I either roll away or sidestep, and, in Ganondorf's case, I punish him. Huh. I never thought about it like that. Still, I wish the two hits would link properly, since I would do the same thing to Mario, Luigi, Fox, Falco, Captain Falcon, and any number of other characters that I did to Samus, and yet their jabs link properly. It still feels like she's getting the short end of the stick.

Moving on, speed isn't everything. Mewtwo's set of aerials is almost definitely better than Samus's. Once again, Mewtwo's N-Air can be used to chew on shields and create a mobile hitbox, his F-Air combos into itself at low percentages and KO's at high percentages, his B-Air can create a "wall of pain" at certain percentages, his U-Air is a mediocre juggle move that can hit through the lip of certain stages, and his D-Air can KO, even without the meteor smash. Plus, I'm pretty sure that most of Mewtwo's aerials outrange Samus's. Samus's aerials, while not necessarily bad, simply don't approach that level of usefulness, regardless of how much faster they may be.

Furthermore, none of Samus's Smash Attacks even approach Mewtwo's in terms of power. They may not be quite as safe, but, then again, Smash Attacks don't define a character, and at least Mewtwo's can be used to get early KO's. As far as tilts go, Mewtwo's are also more useful than Samus's. Mewtwo's D-Tilt is an excellent combo tool, his F-Tilt becomes a KO move at higher percentages, and his U-Tilt has a disjointed hitbox and covers a broader area than Samus's.

Special Moves are another beast entirely, but I'll try my hardest. Shadow Ball is more powerful than Charge Shot, it's is much safer on shield, it can be charged in midair, and its utility extends beyond being a projectile, with Shadow Ball serving as a recovery tool. Plus, uncharged Shadow Balls are very useful. Charge Shot, however, charges faster, moves faster, and comes out faster. We could debate about which projectile is superior until the cows come home, but, for the sake of simplicity, I think we can agree that they're both excellent projectiles.

Teleport and Screw Attack are also debatable, seeing as Screw Attack excels at KO'ing, but isn't very good at recovering, while Teleport excels at recovering, but can't KO. However, seeing as Screw Attack is one of Samus's few KO options, whereas Mewtwo has a plethora of KO options, I would say that Teleport is better. Mewtwo gets a nice, lengthy recovery and a multitude to KO moves, while Samus has a mediocre recovery and a limited selection of KO moves. Plus,
@LIQUID12A did say that Mewtwo's N-Air was a more useful tool than Screw Attack, mostly due to the fact that Mewtwo's N-Air doesn't put him into helpless and because it can be spammed in the neutral game.

As for Confusion, I'd say that it's probably better than Missile. Super Missiles can't KO, even at ludicrous percentages, but they also deal too much knockback to be used to set up punishes. That said, they can be used to rack up damage and interrupt approaches. I'll give them that. However, I'd say that uncharged Shadow Balls are a better "weak projectile," since they can be used to interrupt approaches and set up punishes. Super Missiles beat them in terms of speed and initial damage, though. That's a tough one, but, despite our differing views, I think we could agree that, like fully charged Shadow Balls and Charge Shot, they're pretty close. Anyway, because of their similar levels of usefulness, Mewtwo basically gets an "extra move" on Samus. Confusion is very useful as a reflector, which, by the way, increases Shadow Ball's usefulness, since Mewtwo can throw it out with little fear of having it reflected back at him, and Confusion can be used to reset the game to neutral against most of the cast. Potentially, Confusion can also be used to set up a punish against inexperienced players. Oh, and it hits through shields and can serve as a third jump, too.

Next up is Disable and Bomb. OK, so Bomb can be used to stall in midair, just like Disable, and it also provides Samus with a limited degree of stage control. However, Disable, like Bomb, can be used to stall in midair, and it's an excellent punishing tool that can be used to set up early KO's and inflict powerful blows on opponents. Ultimately, I'm going to have to give this one to Disable because it's just an incredibly useful punishing tool, while I feel that Bomb's degree of stage control is just too limited to stack up to Disable.

I don't think we even need to compare Mewtwo's and Samus's throws. Mewtwo takes this one by long and far. I know I picked this whole thing apart, and I apologize for the long post, but, once I got started, I couldn't stop. Basically, I feel like Samus just falls short in too many areas. She has a mediocre recovery, limited KO power, questionable design choices, and, on top of all that, she has wonky hitboxes. Mewtwo, on the other hand, has a lengthy recovery, an excellent set of aerials, good KO power, and several miscellaneous tools, such as Confusion, which can reset the game to neutral, hit through shields, reflect projectiles, and potentially set up punishes, and Disable, which is a fantastic punishing tool. Essentially, I think that Mewtwo is better than Samus by too much in too many areas for Samus to outclass him. Neither of them are great, though; Samus is just worse. To reiterate a previous point of mine, Mewtwo is a cracked hammer, and Samus is splinters of wood. You can build a birdhouse with a cracked hammer, but good luck doing that with wood splinters.


Popular opinion is formed on first impressions and overall sheepish behavior whereas profesional experience is based on research and understanding, theorycrafting and testing.

You are literally saying: "Scientists aren't always right and you saying they are is wrong. Sometimes completely uneducated people are right, sometimes Scientists are right, you shouldn't tell me which to believe"........



As I said, don't blindly believe pros opinions but between pros and popular opinions most often than not pros will know more. If you point out popular opinion polls I'll point out pros which are much more reliable.

Also almost 100% of those examples were examples of both pros and popular opinions (moreso popular opinions than pros). Do you have any example where popular opinion has been right but pros have said otherwise and later on proven wrong?





Ganondorf has more range and kill power than Falcon, his specials are also better in terms of kill power and priority and their effects and safety, doesn't make him higher tier than Falcon.





Again this is why I am not discussing who'se better, you guys compare Mewtwo and Samus in a bubble. You compare how one move does against the other instead of actually comparing options in the game in specific important matchups.

Comparing in a bubble or a Mewtwo vs Samus matchup won't really help.

There are also the things like having a jab 2 which aren't immediately obvious and most popular opinion is that "it's bad". I've had people say that Mewtwo N-Air is bad because opponents can easily DI out of, yet players who play Mewtwo understand that this allows us to get true combos on Fast Fall (if we can ever figure out why and how they drop on different sides) and also allows us to gimp characters much easier.

It's easier to see something and classify it as bad than it is to analyze it and understand it. Again, Samus Jab 2 as a reference.
 
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RayNoire

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About Mewtwo's hitboxes (my favorite topic again yay),

In order of importance/fix neededness:

Hurtbox
.
Grab hitbox
.
.
.
Dsmash Hitbox
Nair Hitbox (startup)
Utilt Hitbox
Uair Hitbox
Fair Hitbox
.
.
.
.
.
Bair Hitbox
.
(a lot more dots)
.
Fsmash Hitbox
__________

I could make a video but it would be really bad quality. Hopefully somebody does soon though; that Samus video is popping up everywhere. I'll be shocked if she isn't fixed in the next patch.
 

Chiroz

Tier Lists? Foolish...
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Zykrex
About Mewtwo's hitboxes (my favorite topic again yay),

In order of importance/fix neededness:

Hurtbox
.
Grab hitbox
.
.
.
Dsmash Hitbox
Nair Hitbox (startup)
Utilt Hitbox
Uair Hitbox
Fair Hitbox
.
.
.
.
.
Bair Hitbox
.
(a lot more dots)
.
Fsmash Hitbox
__________

I could make a video but it would be really bad quality. Hopefully somebody does soon though; that Samus video is popping up everywhere. I'll be shocked if she isn't fixed in the next patch.


We got the Teleport video to have more than a million hits (or so I was told, I have no idea to be honest) yet it wasn't fixed. I don't think it exactly works like that, but hopefully it does get fixed :). More viable characters please.
 

mrconcon

Smash Cadet
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Messages
67
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California
I have heard there's a new pro Mewtwo player around, Richbrown one of the best brawl players used him in tourney on the weekend and

For those who dont know, mrconcon is the only person to have taken a set off zero in the last like... 9 months. So that's no small feat!

From what I can see, he didn't win the set though but I definitely hope to see more of it. I found a few clips of him using Mewtwo on his twitch channel, he is extremely nair heavy.

I also had food poisoning yesterday from an undercooked hotdog served in the venue, threw up four times. I'm surprised I even beat anyone. My records with these players in sets are wayyy in my favor. Congrats to them beating or almost beating me in this state lmao

Yeah! Lets point out when a good player almost loses, not when he bodies them most of the time!
 
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U-Throw

Smash Lord
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Popular opinion is formed on first impressions and overall sheepish behavior whereas profesional experience is based on research and understanding, theorycrafting and testing.

You are literally saying: "Scientists aren't always right and you saying they are is wrong. Sometimes completely uneducated people are right, sometimes Scientists are right, you shouldn't tell me which to believe"........



As I said, don't blindly believe pros opinions but between pros and popular opinions most often than not pros will know more. If you point out popular opinion polls I'll point out pros which are much more reliable.

Also almost 100% of those examples were examples of both pros and popular opinions (moreso popular opinions than pros). Do you have any example where popular opinion has been right but pros have said otherwise and later on proven wrong?





Ganondorf has more range and kill power than Falcon, his specials are also better in terms of kill power and priority and their effects and safety, doesn't make him higher tier than Falcon.





Again this is why I am not discussing who'se better, you guys compare Mewtwo and Samus in a bubble. You compare how one move does against the other instead of actually comparing options in the game in specific important matchups.

Comparing in a bubble or a Mewtwo vs Samus matchup won't really help.

There are also the things like having a jab 2 which aren't immediately obvious and most popular opinion is that "it's bad". I've had people say that Mewtwo N-Air is bad because opponents can easily DI out of, yet players who play Mewtwo understand that this allows us to get true combos on Fast Fall (if we can ever figure out why and how they drop on different sides) and also allows us to gimp characters much easier.

It's easier to see something and classify it as bad than it is to analyze it and understand it. Again, Samus Jab 2 as a reference.
Popular opinion, more often than not, originates from the pros and spreads into the public mind. Almost all of my examples were originally the pros' opinions, which then spread into the general public's mind. So, if the pros research the game so well, why did they consider Sonic low-tier in Brawl for almost 2 years? Why was Mewtwo considered to be one of the 4 worst characters in Melee for over 5 years? Why was Young Link considered inferior to Link for over a decade? I could go on, with characters such as Ike in Brawl and Fox in Melee fitting into similar criteria, but I'll leave it at that. Clearly, the pros didn't research the game well enough. Also, as a result of popular opinions originating from pros, most of the time, it's pros proving other pros wrong. Professional players, as the people that the average player looks up to the most, influence the public mind more than anybody else. That's simply undeniable.

However, if you simply must have an example, I'll use Mewtwo in SSBM. In the very first tier list, Mewtwo was ranked dead last by the pros. Many people, users here on SmashBoards, no less, strongly objected, and, despite this, Mewtwo hovered around this position for quite some time. In July of 2006, Mewtwo actually dropped back down to last place, despite the public clearly objecting to such a placement. However, as Taj almost single-handedly showed, Mewtwo doesn't belong in last place in Melee, and, despite that being the pros' opinions, the general public was proven right.

Believe it or not, scientists can be wrong. Albert Einstein was wrong on a multitude of things. For example, the theory of relativity, one of Einstein's greatest achievements, was proven wrong back in 2011. Evolution, despite being a widely accepted concept, isn't supported by science at all. In fact, several of the leading scientists in the field of evolution don't believe that science supports it. Natural selection, one of the processes that people frequently cite as proving evolution, actually plays a part in disproving it. But, I digress.

That's a poor analogy. Ganondorf is too slow to make good use of his power, the difference in speed between him and Captain Falcon is much greater than the difference in speed between Mewtwo and Samus, and Ganondorf's recovery is actually slightly worse Captain Falcon's. Plus, Ganondorf and Captain Falcon are semi-clones of each other, which makes them much easier to compare. Whereas range and power are essentially the only things that Ganondorf has over Captain Falcon, Mewtwo has a more range, more power, a better recovery, and a better toolkit than Samus. Everything else they have is more or less on par with each other, with a minor difference in speed being the only thing that Samus truly has over Mewtwo. That's simply not enough to compensate for all of her shortcomings.

Believe me, I'm not comparing Mewtwo and Samus to each other inside a bubble. When I was writing out my previous post, I considered the pros and cons of each move: what can this move be used to do? Is it useful? How does this move compare to that move in terms of usefulness? Etc., etc. If I was comparing Mewtwo to Samus in a void, then I would've pointed out how Mewtwo can reflect Samus's projectiles with Confusion, or how Mewtwo's B-Air would allow him to easily gimp Samus if she tried to recover low. But, as you can see, I didn't do that. I took each of Mewtwo's moves, measured their potential utility, and compared it to the utility of Samus's moves. For example...

Disable's ability to punish opponents extremely hard is superior to the limited stage control that Bomb grants, while Super Missiles and uncharged Shadow Balls are roughly on par with each other due to the differences in initial damage, speed, and their ability to set up punishes. However, due to the fact that just one of Mewtwo's moves encompasses the utility of two of Samus's, Mewtwo has an "extra move," Confusion, over Samus, and Confusion happens to add a entirely new layer to Mewtwo's playstyle that gives him an advantage against most Smash 4's characters.

...And so on and so forth. That's a basic outline of my thought process when I wrote my previous post. I was doing anything but comparing Mewtwo and Samus to each other inside a bubble. In fact, I was trying my best to do the exact opposite of that: I was trying to compare them to the entire rest of the roster, not just to each other. I mean, what did I do wrong? I thought I did a pretty good job of comparing Mewtwo's and Samus's potentials to each other, if I do say so myself.

Seeing as you haven't provided a counterargument as to why Samus's jab not linking properly is a good thing, or an actual counterargument to my previous post as a whole, it's hard for me to take this part of your post, as well as your post in general, seriously. Like I said before, I feel like I did a pretty good job of analyzing Mewtwo's and Samus's potentials and comparing them to each other. If you're going to provide an analogy, then you should probably give a complete explanation alongside that analogy, like I did. It makes your side of the argument much easier to fully understand and address.
 
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Ryu Myuutsu

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I do have to agree with not letting oneself be swayed by popular opinion, you step on places like GameFaqs and all you do is find threads about how a certain character is cheap, broken, etc. I've seen what terrifying good Samus players are capable of, I myself am a Samus main as well, and I don't think she is that bad.
 

meleebrawler

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One last thought about wonky hitboxes from me is that Meta Knight's near the beginning were far more harmful since even if you knew them they could still easily trip you up by making you think they had more range.

Another thought about bair is that if it had startup matching the animation it'd make a stupid good walling move. And do we really want a key Mewtwo tactic being swinging his rear end at people?

I think the developers tried to make Samus decent at both hand-to-hand (goodish combo abilities, zoning moves) and projectile combat, but put little thought in how those work together.

That's a poor analogy. Ganondorf is too slow to make good use of his power, the difference in speed between him and Captain Falcon is much greater than the difference in speed between Mewtwo and Samus, and Ganondorf's recovery is very poor compared to Captain Falcon's. Plus, Ganondorf and Captain Falcon are semi-clones of each other, which makes them much easier to compare. Whereas range and power are essentially the only things that Ganondorf has over Captain Falcon, Mewtwo has a more range, more power, a better recovery, and a better toolkit than Samus. Everything else they have is more or less on par with each other, with a minor difference in speed being the only thing that Samus truly has over Mewtwo. That's simply not enough to compensate for all of her shortcomings.
Falcon is only marginally better at recovering than Ganon due to his airspeed making him less likely to be outright unable to come back even with a second jump. Even in default Ganon can threaten a Ganoncide, and customs Ganon just blows him away.

I do have to agree with not letting oneself be swayed by popular opinion, you step on places like GameFaqs and all you do is find threads about how a certain character is cheap, broken, etc. I've seen what terrifying good Samus players are capable of, I myself am a Samus main as well, and I don't think she is that bad.
Hard work and determination do more to advance a character than any number of patches. Those can speed it up but they're useless without players actually trying to find what works with said character. I really dislike the intent behind that Samus video since it's way more to try and play your favourite character well than whining about the things that don't work. I don't care what anyone else thinks about Samus and her supposed problems; I have fun using her and will continue doing so.

(Although Samus in customs is pretty legit. Relentless Missiles are the big star, but a lot of options are interesting too. The only real duds seem to be Melee Charge Shot and maybe Turbo Missiles).
 

U-Throw

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One last thought about wonky hitboxes from me is that Meta Knight's near the beginning were far more harmful since even if you knew them they could still easily trip you up by making you think they had more range.

Another thought about bair is that if it had startup matching the animation it'd make a stupid good walling move. And do we really want a key Mewtwo tactic being swinging his rear end at people?

I think the developers tried to make Samus decent at both hand-to-hand (goodish combo abilities, zoning moves) and projectile combat, but put little thought in how those work together.



Falcon is only marginally better at recovering than Ganon due to his airspeed making him less likely to be outright unable to come back even with a second jump. Even in default Ganon can threaten a Ganoncide, and customs Ganon just blows him away.



Hard work and determination do more to advance a character than any number of patches. Those can speed it up but they're useless without players actually trying to find what works with said character. I really dislike the intent behind that Samus video since it's way more to try and play your favourite character well than whining about the things that don't work. I don't care what anyone else thinks about Samus and her supposed problems; I have fun using her and will continue doing so.

(Although Samus in customs is pretty legit. Relentless Missiles are the big star, but a lot of options are interesting too. The only real duds seem to be Melee Charge Shot and maybe Turbo Missiles).
Ah, my bad. I edited my post to be accurate. Thanks for pointing that out! Also, I agree with you on Customs. Customized Ganondorf is awesome, and Customized Samus is definitely a few steps up from default Samus. I don't know exactly how many of Samus's issues can be fixed via Customs, but I do know that she's noticeably better. And Ganondorf improves a lot through Custom Moves. Wizard's Dropkick and Dark Fists are insane! Honestly, I feel like Smash 4's metagame will become significantly more interesting if Customs become legal. There will probably be a lot more variety at high-level play, provided that happens. However, I do worry that Mewtwo's viability will drop significantly in a Customs-legal environment. If that's the price, though, I'm willing to pay it...
 
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meleebrawler

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Ah, my bad. I edited my post to be accurate. Thanks for pointing that out! Also, I agree with you on Customs. Customized Ganondorf is awesome, and Customized Samus is definitely a few steps up from default Samus. I don't know exactly how many of Samus's issues can be fixed via Customs, but I do know that she's noticeably better. And Ganondorf improves a lot through Custom Moves. Wizard's Dropkick and Dark Fists are insane! Honestly, I feel like Smash 4's metagame will become significantly more interesting if Customs become legal. There will probably be a lot more variety at high-level play, provided that happens. However, I do worry that Mewtwo's viability will drop significantly in a Customs-legal environment. If that's the price, though, I'm willing to pay it...
Like I said, the main thing Samus gets in customs is relentless missiles which turns them from sub-par projectiles into aerial mines, improving her keepaway and trap game immensely.

Dense Charge Shot is an interesting option that can work well in tandem with the missiles but in general default is so good people stick with that. It can be absolute hell against some recoveries, though, like preventing Fox from ever using illusion to get back on the edge. Melee... just forget about it.

Screw Rush can semi-spike and is a little more flexible in recovery while being a good anti-air against those who like their spacing aerials. Apex is ALMOST a super deadly OOS move but is just a little too slow.

Slip bombs work better for GTFOM than default and the trip can sometimes lead into things. Meanwhile Power Mega Bombs tend to get a bad rep for how long they take to explode but they do really command respect with their big, damaging explosion.

And if there's one good thing about tourney mode, it's that now everyone has the opportunity to practice customs with people.
 
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Chiroz

Tier Lists? Foolish...
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Popular opinion, more often than not, originates from the pros and spreads into the public mind. Almost all of my examples were originally the pros' opinions, which then spread into the general public's mind. So, if the pros research the game so well, why did they consider Sonic low-tier in Brawl for almost 2 years? Why was Mewtwo considered to be one of the 4 worst characters in Melee for over 5 years? Why was Young Link considered inferior to Link for over a decade? I could go on, with characters such as Ike in Brawl and Fox in Melee fitting into similar criteria, but I'll leave it at that. Clearly, the pros didn't research the game well enough. Also, as a result of popular opinions originating from pros, most of the time, it's pros proving other pros wrong. Professional players, as the people that the average player looks up to the most, influence the public mind more than anybody else. That's simply undeniable.

However, if you simply must have an example, I'll use Mewtwo in SSBM. In the very first tier list, Mewtwo was ranked dead last by the pros. Many people, users here on SmashBoards, no less, strongly objected, and, despite this, Mewtwo hovered around this position for quite some time. In July of 2006, Mewtwo actually dropped back down to last place, despite the public clearly objecting to such a placement. However, as Taj almost single-handedly showed, Mewtwo doesn't belong in last place in Melee, and, despite that being the pros' opinions, the general public was proven right.

Believe it or not, scientists can be wrong. Albert Einstein was wrong on a multitude of things. For example, the theory of relativity, one of Einstein's greatest achievements, was proven wrong back in 2011. Evolution, despite being a widely accepted concept, isn't supported by science at all. In fact, several of the leading scientists in the field of evolution don't believe that science supports it. Natural selection, one of the processes that people frequently cite as proving evolution, actually plays a part in disproving it. But, I digress.

That's a poor analogy. Ganondorf is too slow to make good use of his power, the difference in speed between him and Captain Falcon is much greater than the difference in speed between Mewtwo and Samus, and Ganondorf's recovery is actually slightly worse Captain Falcon's. Plus, Ganondorf and Captain Falcon are semi-clones of each other, which makes them much easier to compare. Whereas range and power are essentially the only things that Ganondorf has over Captain Falcon, Mewtwo has a more range, more power, a better recovery, and a better toolkit than Samus. Everything else they have is more or less on par with each other, with a minor difference in speed being the only thing that Samus truly has over Mewtwo. That's simply not enough to compensate for all of her shortcomings.

Believe me, I'm not comparing Mewtwo and Samus to each other inside a bubble. When I was writing out my previous post, I considered the pros and cons of each move: what can this move be used to do? Is it useful? How does this move compare to that move in terms of usefulness? Etc., etc. If I was comparing Mewtwo to Samus in a void, then I would've pointed out how Mewtwo can reflect Samus's projectiles with Confusion, or how Mewtwo's B-Air would allow him to easily gimp Samus if she tried to recover low. But, as you can see, I didn't do that. I took each of Mewtwo's moves, measured their potential utility, and compared it to the utility of Samus's moves. For example...

Disable's ability to punish opponents extremely hard is superior to the limited stage control that Bomb grants, while Super Missiles and uncharged Shadow Balls are roughly on par with each other due to the differences in initial damage, speed, and their ability to set up punishes. However, due to the fact that just one of Mewtwo's moves encompasses the utility of two of Samus's, Mewtwo has an "extra move," Confusion, over Samus, and Confusion happens to add a entirely new layer to Mewtwo's playstyle that gives him an advantage against most Smash 4's characters.

...And so on and so forth. That's a basic outline of my thought process when I wrote my previous post. I was doing anything but comparing Mewtwo and Samus to each other inside a bubble. In fact, I was trying my best to do the exact opposite of that: I was trying to compare them to the entire rest of the roster, not just to each other. I mean, what did I do wrong? I thought I did a pretty good job of comparing Mewtwo's and Samus's potentials to each other, if I do say so myself.

Seeing as you haven't provided a counterargument as to why Samus's jab not linking properly is a good thing, or an actual counterargument to my previous post as a whole, it's hard for me to take this part of your post, as well as your post in general, seriously. Like I said before, I feel like I did a pretty good job of analyzing Mewtwo's and Samus's potentials and comparing them to each other. If you're going to provide an analogy, then you should probably give a complete explanation alongside that analogy, like I did. It makes your side of the argument much easier to fully understand and address.



I cannot argue with you because you do not look into an argument. I am sorry to say this so bluntly but I cannot waste my time any further after this.



BTW the theory of evolution as stated by Darwinism (the man who made the theory of evolution) IS natural selection just so you know that. They are one and the same and it's just people, who don't do research by themselves and just believe popular opinion, who believe evolution to be organisms adapting to their environment (which is the end result, not the process).

This line: "Natural selection, one of the processes that people frequently cite as proving evolution, actually plays a part in disproving it. But, I digress." Makes ABSOLUTELY ZERO sense. Look up Darwinism, which is the theory of evolution, and read up about it.




So what popular opinion stated by a complete random person with no scientific background or research has been proven right until now? Again you don't read my post or understand it, which seems to be a usual thing. I am not claiming scientists are always right, I am claiming that between a scientist and someone who'se never ever actually researched the topic, the scientist probably has a much, much greater chance of being correct.

They could both be wrong, sure. But if one is to be correct it's basically guaranteed to be the one who actually researched and analyzed the topic at hand and not the guy who just said a random sentence based on the name of the topic.




So you are saying that Mewtwo wasn't in the bottom of the tier list? Because I think he was, popular opinion mirrored that of pros. Your example is not valid in that sense. Also 1 player winning against some people don't a good character make. Chu-Dat has won tournies using Pichu and all of the low tier chars on purpose. Doesn't mean the char is good.

Pros are not psychic or magicians. The meta is always advancing. Everything changes when somethings previously unknown (either about the engine or about the character itself) is discovered. Learning about a game for 6 months is strictly better than learning about it for 1 month. I am not saying pros pick up the game and magically understand everything about it in minutes. I am saying that pros are always ahead of the common populace in terms of game theory.

I wanted you to cite me an example where this was incorrect, where the common populace was ahead of the pros in terms of meta game advancement, basically some time that pros agreed that: "This char is bad" and the tier lists (popular opinion) were still placing him at the top and at the end the character resulted to actually be a good character. You can look up other games too to help your search. This would be an actual counter example. Citing an example where pros were wrong, but popular opinion was also wrong isn't exactly a good example.




Also I never argued that Samus jab not connecting was a good thing. I stated that her having a second jab was better than her having just one jab, which you already admitted that it was. But before you admitted it I explained with detail AND examples why that is so and you didn't even pay attention to it and just kept arguing that it wasn't, because as I said you don't want to analyze things yourselves and you are going with popular opinion. It wasn't until I literally FORCED you to analyze it yourself by asking you a simple question for you to figure it out that you understood what I mean.




Anyways I probably won't be visiting the forums for a while. Work has caught up with me a bit and also I am tired of trying to explain things to people. It's becoming more of a chore than an actual help.

Edit: I honestly feel like I am an asshole and that I am coming off as arrogant and I don't like that feeling. I prefer to just leave the forums for a while.

Specially towards Browny, if/when he reads this I want him to know that I actually feel bad about discussing the way I do. I don't like making others feel bad. And I apologize if I hurt your feelings in any way at any point.








I also had food poisoning yesterday from an undercooked hotdog served in the venue, threw up four times. I'm surprised I even beat anyone. My records with these players in sets are wayyy in my favor. Congrats to them beating or almost beating me in this state lmao

Yeah! Lets point out when a good player almost loses, not when he bodies them most of the time!

Dude, I think you took it a bit too seriously CC. I don't think he was trying to show any disrespect to you or anything. Obviously if a Mewtwo wins a match against a really good player such as yourself (which we all know you are) we are going to get excited.
 
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U-Throw

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I cannot argue with you because you do not look into an argument. I am sorry to say this so bluntly but I cannot waste my time any further after this.



BTW the theory of evolution as stated by Darwinism (the man who made the theory of evolution) IS natural selection just so you know that. They are one and the same and it's just people, who don't do research by themselves and just believe popular opinion, who believe evolution to be organisms adapting to their environment (which is the end result, not the process).

This line: "Natural selection, one of the processes that people frequently cite as proving evolution, actually plays a part in disproving it. But, I digress." Makes ABSOLUTELY ZERO sense. Look up Darwinism, which is the theory of evolution, and read up about it.




So what popular opinion stated by a complete random person with no scientific background or research has been proven right until now? Again you don't read my post or understand it, which seems to be a usual thing. I am not claiming scientists are always right, I am claiming that between a scientist and someone who'se never ever actually researched the topic, the scientist probably has a much, much greater chance of being correct.

They could both be wrong, sure. But if one is to be correct it's basically guaranteed to be the one who actually researched and analyzed the topic at hand and not the guy who just said a random sentence based on the name of the topic.




So you are saying that Mewtwo wasn't in the bottom of the tier list? Because I think he was, popular opinion mirrored that of pros. Your example is not valid in that sense. Also 1 player winning against some people don't a good character make. Chu-Dat has won tournies using Pichu and all of the low tier chars on purpose. Doesn't mean the char is good.

Pros are not psychic or magicians. The meta is always advancing. Everything changes when somethings previously unknown (either about the engine or about the character itself) is discovered. Learning about a game for 6 months is strictly better than learning about it for 1 month. I am not saying pros pick up the game and magically understand everything about it in minutes. I am saying that pros are always ahead of the common populace in terms of game theory.

I wanted you to cite me an example where this was incorrect, where the common populace was ahead of the pros in terms of meta game advancement, basically some time that pros agreed that: "This char is bad" and the tier lists (popular opinion) were still placing him at the top and at the end the character resulted to actually be a good character. You can look up other games too to help your search. This would be an actual counter example. Citing an example where pros were wrong, but popular opinion was also wrong isn't exactly a good example.




Also I never argued that Samus jab not connecting was a good thing. I stated that her having a second jab was better than her having just one jab, which you already admitted that it was. But before you admitted it I explained with detail AND examples why that is so and you didn't even pay attention to it and just kept arguing that it wasn't, because as I said you don't want to analyze things yourselves and you are going with popular opinion. It wasn't until I literally FORCED you to analyze it yourself by asking you a simple question for you to figure it out that you understood what I mean.




Anyways I probably won't be visiting the forums for a while. Work has caught up with me a bit and also I am tired of trying to explain things to people. It's becoming more of a chore than an actual help.

Edit: I honestly feel like I am an ******* and that I am coming off as arrogant and I don't like that feeling. I prefer to just leave the forums for a while.

Specially towards Browny, if/when he reads this I want him to know that I actually feel bad about discussing the way I do. I don't like making others feel bad. And I apologize if I hurt your feelings in any way at any point.











Dude, I think you took it a bit too seriously CC. I don't think he was trying to show any disrespect to you or anything. Obviously if a Mewtwo wins a match against a really good player such as yourself (which we all know you are) we are going to get excited.
Ooo... Yeah, you're right about that. Sorry, that sentence came out weird. I'd rather not start a debate about evolution and whatnot, but, if you want the long and short of my view on evolution, I don't see it as plausible because, in order to develop beneficial traits for a new species, you must first develop harmful traits for the current species, especially in critical cases. For example, in order for an aquatic organism to develop into a terrestrial organism, it must first develop legs, which are not beneficial for an aquatic animal. Therefore, the organisms with legs would be at a disadvantage and, according to the theory of natural selection, would thus die out. That's just an overview, though. I could go more in-depth, but I don't want to start anything. Of course, that's macroevolution. Microevolution, on the other hand, is completely possible, in my opinion.

I'm not saying that Mewtwo isn't low-tier in Melee, because, quite honestly, he is. What I'm saying is that, back when the first tier list for Melee was created, most users on SmashBoards objected to Mewtwo being ranked as the worst character in the game. Therefore, because most people disagreed with his placement, the popular opinion was that Mewtwo belonged higher up on the tier list. The pros obviously disagreed, though, because, despite the popular opinion persisting, Mewtwo remained in the bottom 4 places of the tier list for over 5 years, even dropping back down to dead last in 2006. However, Taj showed that Mewtwo had more potential than most people thought, and is generally credited as the one responsible for Mewtwo's jump from bottom-tier to low-tier. So, in this case, because the popular opinion was that Mewtwo didn't belong at very bottom of the tier list, and because the pros clearly thought otherwise, the popular opinion was proven right, while the pros' opinion was proven wrong. Granted, Taj may not have been solely responsible for this, but he certainly played the largest role in it.

I see. I apologize for misreading your posts. I guess I was just comparing Samus's jab to other multi-hit jabs, when I really should've been comparing it to single-hit jabs. My apologies.

You're not coming off as arrogant. I was just being somewhat incompetent, so it's perfectly understandable for you to be a little upset. No hard feelings:).

Also, as a side note, if I didn't address something you said, it's because I agree with it. For example, you're totally right about a person who's educated in a given subject is more likely to be correct than someone who isn't, but, like you said, such people aren't infallible. Even the most educated individuals make mistakes, however rarely they may do so.
 
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Browny

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I also had food poisoning yesterday from an undercooked hotdog served in the venue, threw up four times. I'm surprised I even beat anyone. My records with these players in sets are wayyy in my favor. Congrats to them beating or almost beating me in this state lmao

Yeah! Lets point out when a good player almost loses, not when he bodies them most of the time!
Settle down m8, it just a game.

All I did was point out what happened and a high level player using Mewtwo that we can watch since its rare to find them.

I suppose we should all ignore your win over zero since he bodied you every other time then eh.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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We got the Teleport video to have more than a million hits (or so I was told, I have no idea to be honest) yet it wasn't fixed. I don't think it exactly works like that, but hopefully it does get fixed :). More viable characters please.
Zelda's teleport is also wonky at times, that also wasn't fixed and Zelda's been in the game more than 8 months in comparison to Mewtwo
 

MewtwoX825

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I love how they gave Peach the ability to levitate even though the only game she had that ability in isn't even canon yet Mewtwo can't despite being lightweight for the same damn reason...

Edit: Oh and I also love the irony behind Samus and Zelda being completly overshadowed by their transformations.
 
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Metros

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It's rather sad to come back here after a long time and see tension yet again.

So how are you guys all going with Mewtwo? For me, I've felt I've steadily improved a lot over the past 5 or so months. I used to get trashed when I started out. Now I can readily even with the best player in the state, and can beat the 2nd best player. Though I refuse to enter tournaments I'm much happier pushing myself through friendlies. I've gained a lot of confidence, and despite there have been times I've felt like just giving up I've still pushed on. I told myself long ago that if Mewtwo was back in Sm4sh I'd never give up on him, and I have yet to do so.

I've dealt with a lot of **** recently, including my now ex best friend hurting me beyond repair (basically telling me that a vascular malformation inside my brain is psychological and a cry for attention) so Mewtwo still gives me that something to look forward to even though it's been ages now since his release. I sincerely hope they buff him further, especially his hitboxes.
 

Igzex

I wish I looked this good with lipstick
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It's rather sad to come back here after a long time and see tension yet again.
This tension is why I don't post here much because like, nobody has fun with Mewtwo because she's not tournament viable and here I am just manipulating my 3 other friends into going after each other while I sneak to the items, slither into position for an opportunistic stage spike on a foe trying to recover, or the ideal vantage point to camp with shadow balls. Anyways, sorry about your personal problems and I hope they get better D:

Zelda's teleport is also wonky at times, that also wasn't fixed and Zelda's been in the game more than 8 months in comparison to Mewtwo
Teleports as a whole in this game are less than reliable.
 

pikazz

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one thing I dont get, why is everyone complaining the hitboxes on FAir on mewtwo? I have 99% hitting the opponent with FAir with ease. the only time it whiffs is when I am simply too far away or I do the FAir too early.
I do get stuff like his grab, tilts, jabs but not the FAir
It's rather sad to come back here after a long time and see tension yet again.

So how are you guys all going with Mewtwo? For me, I've felt I've steadily improved a lot over the past 5 or so months. I used to get trashed when I started out. Now I can readily even with the best player in the state, and can beat the 2nd best player. Though I refuse to enter tournaments I'm much happier pushing myself through friendlies. I've gained a lot of confidence, and despite there have been times I've felt like just giving up I've still pushed on. I told myself long ago that if Mewtwo was back in Sm4sh I'd never give up on him, and I have yet to do so.

I've dealt with a lot of **** recently, including my now ex best friend hurting me beyond repair (basically telling me that a vascular malformation inside my brain is psychological and a cry for attention) so Mewtwo still gives me that something to look forward to even though it's been ages now since his release. I sincerely hope they buff him further, especially his hitboxes.
Mewtwo is still awesome, something about him feels so fluid and smooth <3 like he is dancing with his moves

and that sucks about your what you have been through D: I hope it will turn out well :3
 

U-Throw

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It's rather sad to come back here after a long time and see tension yet again.

So how are you guys all going with Mewtwo? For me, I've felt I've steadily improved a lot over the past 5 or so months. I used to get trashed when I started out. Now I can readily even with the best player in the state, and can beat the 2nd best player. Though I refuse to enter tournaments I'm much happier pushing myself through friendlies. I've gained a lot of confidence, and despite there have been times I've felt like just giving up I've still pushed on. I told myself long ago that if Mewtwo was back in Sm4sh I'd never give up on him, and I have yet to do so.

I've dealt with a lot of **** recently, including my now ex best friend hurting me beyond repair (basically telling me that a vascular malformation inside my brain is psychological and a cry for attention) so Mewtwo still gives me that something to look forward to even though it's been ages now since his release. I sincerely hope they buff him further, especially his hitboxes.
Yeah, I don't like the tension, either. I realize that I was a participant in the latest debate, but I regret it. Looking back, I came off as much more aggressive than I intended to, so I apologize for exacerbating the situation.

I feel like my Mewtwo has improved significantly since he was first released. Now, I've got all of Mewtwo's basic combos, strings, and strategies down; I've learned how to properly use Confusion and Disable; I know to recover high whenever possible and how to, if need be, recover low; I can punish reliably; and, most importantly, I know that defensive play pays off. When I first started using Mewtwo, my strategy was to, more or less, run around and randomly throw out moves, trying to learn what was effective and what wasn't. I also played way more aggressively and approached my opponent way more often than I should have, so I definitely feel like my current Mewtwo is a few steps from my first. Hopefully, I'll continue to get better as time goes on.

I'm sorry for what happened between you and your friend. I hope you get over them soon. In my opinion, friends like him/her just aren't worth having. Hope you get to feeling better! Anyway, in terms of buffs, I definitely want Mewtwo's hitboxes fixed. If I remember correctly, Meta Knight's hitboxes were corrected in 1.1.0, so there may be hope for that. However, aside from hitbox fixes for Mewtwo, I think some extra power and little more speed would be nice. A more combo-friendly angle on his D-Throw would be great, too.

Mewtwo is just so close to being a good character, I feel like any kind of reasonable buff will significantly improve his viability. However, I also feel like there's something about Mewtwo that no-one's discovered yet. Don't get me wrong: Mewtwo getting buffed would be great, but I also think that we, as players, need to try to fully unlock Mewtwo's potential, even without any help from the devs. Buffs are fine, but nothing increases a character's viability like serious dedication and determination.
 

MewtwoX825

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I agree that there maybe more to Mewtwo than we know but most players have givin up on Mewtwo cause many still see him as a low teir which isn't true but alot of competetive players are too impatient to try to understand characters that don't give them a cheap win. Regardless he does need real buffs too.

Well in other news Zygards new form might be a mega since its going to appear in the Mega evolution anime special. Nonthing new about the green blob other than it might be related to Zygarde. Still think it looks stupid (*holds sheild to protect from the fire breathing newgenners*)
 
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U-Throw

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I agree that there maybe more to Mewtwo than we know but most players have givin up on Mewtwo cause many still see him as a low teir which isn't true but alot of competetive players are too impatient to try to understand characters that don't give them a cheap win. Regardless he does need real buffs too.

Well in other news Zygards new form might be a mega since its going to appear in the Mega evolution anime special. Nonthing new about the green blob other than it might be related to Zygarde. Still think it looks stupid (*holds sheild to protect from the fire breathing newgenners*)
Erm... Sheik, Rosalina & Luma, Zero Suit Samus, and the other top-tiers aren't cheap wins. They actually take time, practice, and dedication to use properly. You can't just pick them up and start winning tournaments left and right. It takes time to learn to use them effectively, especially in the case of Rosalina & Luma. Saying that patience isn't required to learn top-tier characters simply isn't true. Of course, as a general rule, low-tier characters take more time to learn to use effectively, but that doesn't make top-tier characters "cheap wins." I can agree with most of the other stuff you said, though. Personally, I wouldn't say that Mewtwo doesn't need buffs, but I do think there's something about him that hasn't been completely discovered yet.

Hm... That's interesting. We'll see soon enough. I actually still watch the Pokémon anime on a semi-regular basis, so I'll make sure to watch that episode. In regards to the green blobs, I dunno. They could be pretty interesting. I mean, according to some rumors and theories going around, those green blobs could be Zygarde's "eyes." Basically, they could be entities, independent of Zygarde, that move around and relay whatever they see or hear back to Zygarde. It's a pretty cool concept, if you ask me. All I'm saying is that I wouldn't pass judgement on the green blobs just yet. We don't even know what they do. Who knows? They could turn out to be pretty cool.
 
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ZephyrZ

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Saying that patience isn't required to learn top-tier characters simply isn't true.
Definitely. I'm a pretty good Charizard, but I just can't play Sheik for the life of me. Getting kills with her is just too much work for my taste.
 

DrRiceBoy

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Out of the top tiers I am absolutely terrible with Luigi, Rosaluma, ZSS, and Sonic. I really don't know why but I can't seem to do well with them...
 

U-Throw

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When it comes to top-tier characters, I feel like I have a decent grasp on most of them. I mean, I don't play any of the top-tiers to an outstanding extent, but, at the same time, I don't think I'm terribly bad as any of them. The exception, however, is Rosalina & Luma. I'm completely, utterly, totally godawful with her. I typically attribute my ineptness as her to Luma, because I seem to lack the ability to properly utilize him, but Rosalina herself also feels a little strange, in my opinion. I know that probably comes off as ironic, considering that I main Mewtwo, but it's true. I can't put my finger on it, but something about Rosalina herself just feels "off" to me. I don't know. Aside from Rosalina & Luma, though, I feel like I can play most of the other top-tier characters on a passable level.
 

Igzex

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The highest tier character I'm any good at is Fox in 64. Just hit the analog stick up and press A on ground or the air and launch 'em so high you'd expect the toasty guy from Mortal Kombat to show up.
 
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U-Throw

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The highest tier character I'm any good at is Fox in 64. Just hit the analog stick up and press A on ground or the air and launch 'em so high you'd expect the toasty guy from Mortal Kombat to show up.
Fox was so much fun to play as in Smash 64! He was actually my main back then. I especially like how one of Fox's Custom Moves in Smash 4, Impact Blaster, modifies Blaster to be almost identical to Smash 64's version of it. That's a really nice touch, in my opinion. As a former Fox main, it's actually sort of nostalgic.
 
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Ryu Myuutsu

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I'm betting that that worm-like Pokemon is like a larval state of Zygarde or something, similar to Phione.

I haven't watched the Mega Evolution Special Act III yet, need to so before the new one releases. Specials like those and Pokemon Origins proves that Pokemon as an anime can be very good when they are dedicated to a more broader audience rather than just children.
 

Igzex

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Mega Zygarde has parental bond with those things. And does not have to hold a mega stone. Flee while you can.
 

Metros

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I agree that there maybe more to Mewtwo than we know but most players have givin up on Mewtwo cause many still see him as a low teir which isn't true but alot of competetive players are too impatient to try to understand characters that don't give them a cheap win. Regardless he does need real buffs too.
People like this disgust me and don't even deserve Mewtwo on their consoles tbh. Unfortunately it's the case, just as it was with Melee. I don't agree with the video Zero posted. He just makes Mewtwo look worse than what he actually is. Yes, he could use some buffs but he's not low tier. People just can't be bothered taking the time to learn to adjust to his character.
 

U-Throw

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People like this disgust me and don't even deserve Mewtwo on their consoles tbh. Unfortunately it's the case, just as it was with Melee. I don't agree with the video Zero posted. He just makes Mewtwo look worse than what he actually is. Yes, he could use some buffs but he's not low tier. People just can't be bothered taking the time to learn to adjust to his character.
In my opinion, Mewtwo, based on what we know about him right now, is low-tier, but that doesn't mean he's bad. Smash 4 is a game filled with above-average characters, so when an average character, such as Mewtwo, gets added, they appear to be bad. Of course, he's not bad on his own, like, say, Kirby in Melee, but relative to the rest of the cast, he comes off as subpar. As I said before, Mewtwo is like Bill Nye in a room full of Isaac Newtons. He's perfectly fine on his own, but compared to his peers, he pales a little bit. Essentially, I feel like this is a "If everyone is [blank], then nobody is [blank]" situation. In this case, everyone in Smash 4 is above-average, and as a result, "above-average" becomes the new "average." So, also as a result, when a truly average character like Mewtwo gets added, they appear to be subpar. It's all relative, you know? In several regards, I think ZeRo is correct. Mewtwo may not be quite as bad as people say, but he's not on par with the rest of Smash 4.

However, once again, I feel like there's something about Mewtwo that hasn't been completely discovered yet. Once his potential is fully realized, I think Mewtwo will make a small jump on the tier list, but until that happens, I feel like some buffs would be greatly beneficial.

Also, I'll be honest here, I think you might be overreacting a little bit. Just because someone has an opinion that differs from our own doesn't mean that they don't deserve Mewtwo. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, however misinformed we may think they are, and I don't think it's right to say that they don't deserve something simply because their opinion happens to clash with our own. Please don't take this the wrong way; my intention isn't to offend you. I'm just saying that taking something away from a person on the basis that their opinion is "wrong" seems a little extreme to me.
 
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Gallant Blade

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Hello again... How come I always jump on when no one is here? Oh well.

From what I have researched, Pokken Toutnament will be doing a United States test run in Dave and Buster arcade places. It's gameplay will be less technical than most Tekken games so people both casual an competitive can play. I am still hoping for a playable Mewtwo and Porygon-Z.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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I never drop my characters regardless if they are considered to be at the bottom of the tier or not. During the Melee days, I entered tourneys with Mewtwo and Bowser and managed to beat several high level players there who would use Falco or Fox; granted, I never won a tourney but at least the people I lost against were the top level players of my region. I also wasn't very constant in attending tourneys to the point where I would spend a whole year without going to one. I wonder if I would have been able to go further if I really applied myself.
 

Gallant Blade

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I never drop my characters regardless if they are considered to be at the bottom of the tier or not. During the Melee days, I entered tourneys with Mewtwo and Bowser and managed to beat several high level players there who would use Falco or Fox; granted, I never won a tourney but at least the people I lost against were the top level players of my region. I also wasn't very constant in attending tourneys to the point where I would spend a whole year without going to one. I wonder if I would have been able to go further if I really applied myself.
I am impressed. My Smashing skills probably cannot match yours (or anyone else for that manner) you should have kept going, I think. My abilities are like my competitive Pokemon battles; to predictable.

Edit: You know any Mewtwo combos and the percentages they work at? All I know is jab to disable, and that is tricky to pull off.
 
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Ryu Myuutsu

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I am impressed. My Smashing skills probably cannot match yours (or anyone else for that manner) you should have kept going, I think. My abilities are like my competitive Pokemon battles; to predictable.

Edit: You know any Mewtwo combos and the percentages they work at? All I know is jab to disable, and that is tricky to pull off.
Here are some nice Mewtwo combos

 
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