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[ミスティック Speed]

To be fair, with DI Mewtwo has the best Up-Throw in the game.



I doubt B-Throw will ever be touched, although I can see Ness's being nerfed a bit eventually. And yes, please give us some sort of D-Throw set up at low %s.

Well...d-throw can link into Fair if you predict bad DI.

 

[U-Throw]

I think some of you are misinterpreting what ZeRo is saying. He's mostly right, honestly. Mewtwo can kill really easily, and he does have combos, but he doesn't have enough of either to completely compensate for his weaknesses. Mewtwo is a large, light target. It's not that he can't kill or that he can't combo; it's that he can't do it well enough for a character of his size and weight. If Sakurai were to give either area a reasonable buff, Mewtwo would probably see a dramatic jump in performance. Like --- said, Mewtwo is good on a conceptual level, so, therefore, a reasonable buff will greatly improve his capabilities.

That said, Mewtwo isn't bad. He's just average. The problem with that, though, is that most characters in Smash 4 are above-average. Mewtwo can definitely put up a fight against the rest of the roster, but his performance against the top-tiers is the thing that's holding him back. Pikachu, Rosalina & Luma, Sheik, and even Yoshi all have very advantageous matchups against Mewtwo. They're not unwinnable, of course, but they're certainly uphill battles. Like I said previously, Mewtwo is Bill Nye in a room full of Isaac Newtons. He's perfectly fine on his own, but, compared to his competition, he pales a little bit.

However, even with that said, I think that Mewtwo's potential has yet to be fully realized. There's definitely something about him that we haven't completely unlocked yet, and, once we figure out what it is, Mewtwo will probably move up a few places on the tier list. I do feel like some buffs would be greatly beneficial to his overall performance, though.

 

[Chiroz]

Well...d-throw can link into Fair if you predict bad DI.

Lol, not even close though. Also you don't have to predict anything D-Throw has way too much hitstun and endlag, you can react to it.

But yea, it doesn't even come close to linking. Some chars like Marth can aerial before you can (and his F-Air is slower than ours). Basically anyone with an F-Air with good range can hit you back if you're not careful.

I think some of you are misinterpreting what ZeRo is saying. He's mostly right, honestly. Mewtwo can kill really easily, and he does have combos, but he doesn't have enough of either to completely compensate for his weaknesses. Mewtwo is a large, light target. It's not that he can't kill or that he can't combo; it's that he can't do it well enough for a character of his size and weight. If Sakurai were to give either area a reasonable buff, Mewtwo would probably see a dramatic jump in performance. Like --- said, Mewtwo is good on a conceptual level, so, therefore, a reasonable buff will greatly improve his capabilities.

That said, Mewtwo isn't bad. He's just average. The problem with that, though, is that most characters in Smash 4 are above-average. Mewtwo can definitely put up a fight against the rest of the roster, but his performance against the top-tiers is the thing that's holding him back. Pikachu, Rosalina & Luma, Sheik, and even Yoshi all have very advantageous matchups against Mewtwo. They're not unwinnable, of course, but they're certainly uphill battles. Like I said previously, Mewtwo is Bill Nye in a room full of Isaac Newtons. He's perfectly fine on his own, but, compared to his competition, he pales a little bit.

However, even with that said, I think that Mewtwo's potential has yet to be fully realized. There's definitely something about him that we haven't completely unlocked yet, and, once we figure out what it is, Mewtwo will probably move up a few places on the tier list. I do feel like some buffs would be greatly beneficial to his overall performance, though.

I've never had a problam vs Rosa, I feel that's mostly an even matchup, why do you think it's an uphill battle?





Also to everyone who keeps saying Mewtwo is average, remember that how good a char is does not depend on their moveset or their effectiveness. It depends on their MU spread. It doesn't matter if all your moves are awesome if every other char has ways to avoid them you ain't winning 1 MU.

That said I am legititinately curious, to everyone saying Mewtwo is good:

Which MUs do you think Mewtwo has 60:40 or more advantage? Because I honestly cannot think of one out of the top of my head.

 

[U-Throw]

I always found the Rosalina & Luma matchup difficult because Gravitational Pull basically nullifies Shadow Ball, and she has ridiculous priority on some of her moves. She's pretty fast and rather powerful, too. Plus, Luma can be a serious nuisance if you don't keep it in check. On the bright side, though, Rosalina does die pretty early. The "Mewtwo/Rosalina & Luma" matchup probably isn't as bad as Mewtwo's matchups against the other top-tiers, but I don't think it's exactly even, either.

Bowser, Ganondorf, Donkey Kong, Charizard, King Dedede, Dr. Mario, Robin, and so on and so forth. Basically, if a character isn't fast, Mewtwo probably has a fairly even matchup against them. I'd even say that Mewtwo has a decent chance against Mario, Luigi, Jigglypuff, Lucario, Pac-Man, maybe even Falco, and other average-speed characters. He can out-zone most characters because he has one of the best projectiles in the game, Confusion provides defense against projectiles, his recovery is extremely lengthy, and Disable is a ridiculous, albeit situational, punish tool that allows him to kill pretty early. Plus, Mewtwo is rather fast for someone his size. Essentially, with some exceptions here and there, I feel like, if a character isn't overly fast, Mewtwo probably has an even-ish chance against them.

 

[Chiroz]

I always found the Rosalina & Luma matchup difficult because Gravitational Pull basically nullifies Shadow Ball, and she has ridiculous priority on some of her moves. She's pretty fast and rather powerful, too. Plus, Luma can be a serious nuisance if you don't keep it in check. On the bright side, though, Rosalina does die pretty early. The "Mewtwo/Rosalina & Luma" matchup probably isn't as bad as Mewtwo's matchups against the other top-tiers, but I don't think it's exactly even, either.

Bowser, Ganondorf, Donkey Kong, Charizard, King Dedede, Dr. Mario, Robin, and so on and so forth. Basically, if a character isn't fast, Mewtwo probably has a fairly even matchup against them. I'd even say that Mewtwo has a decent chance against Mario, Luigi, Jigglypuff, Lucario, Pac-Man, maybe even Falco, and other average-speed characters. He can out-zone most characters because he has one of the best projectiles in the game, Confusion provides defense against projectiles, his recovery is extremely lengthy, and Disable is a ridiculous, albeit situational, punish tool that allows him to kill pretty early. Plus, Mewtwo is rather fast for someone his size. Essentially, with some exceptions here and there, I feel like, if a character isn't overly fast, Mewtwo probably has an even-ish chance against them.

Yea but my question wasn't what matchups Mewtwo is ok at. I literally want to know if you think Mewtwo is a good pick against any chars.



Also GP is punisheable from half a stage away by Dash Attack. You can make Rosa approach you by showering her with BSBs, if she GPs then Dash Attack. Zone her out with your tilts and aerials. Once Luma is dead go ham a bit. I honestly cannot think of a single thing Rosa does that scares Mewtwo apart from U-Airs.

Mario for example is a much harder fight than Rosa is.

 

[U-Throw]

Personally, I think Mewtwo has a huge advantage against most heavyweights. He hits about as hard as they do, but he's faster than most of them, his recovery outclasses most of theirs, and he has a superior air-game. Mewtwo is also probably a good Dr. Mario or Robin counter, because both are way too slow for their own good. That's my two cents, anyway.

Also, thank you for the tips on Rosalina & Luma! I'll remember those the next time I fight her.

 

[Chiroz]

Personally, I think Mewtwo has a huge advantage against most heavyweights. He hits about as hard as they do, but he's faster than most of them, his recovery outclasses most of theirs, and he has a superior air-game. Mewtwo is also probably a good Dr. Mario or Robin counter, because both are way too slow for their own good. That's my two cents, anyway.

Also, thank you for the tips on Rosalina & Luma! I'll remember those the next time I fight her.

Dr. Mario I can see it, Robin is probably an easy fight but IDK if a counter.

The problem with heavy weights is that they can kill you at 50% most of the time. This doesn't mean Mewtwo loses the match, I also think he probably wins those matchups, but I wouldn't say they are easy. Most of the time if they hit you twice you already have to go into hyper careful mode and not get hit ever again.



The things is this: I never play a matchup where I feel comfortable because I am Mewtwo. Heavyweights scare the **** out of me because of dying to power + rage, it's never a comfortable fight. Combo heavy chars like Mario and Luigi are also very scary because one grab leads to 40%. Fast chars are scary for many reasons. This makes Mewtwo a weak pick in the roster. Almost all chars have at least some MUs where you feel comfortable just for being your char, Mewtwo seems to have none (I guess Dr. Mario might be one, lol).





Anyways I am glad most people have moved on from the "Ganondorf is Mewtwo's worst MU" line of thought back in April/May. I remember I was the only person here saying that Mewtwo actually beats Ganon pretty decently but it's all about playing really carefully so you don't get hit. It was like me against the whole Mewtwo forums, everyone claiming Ganon was somehow the hardest MU Mewtwo could have just because he could kill Mewtwo in 3-4 hits.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Not sure if Doc counts. Better frame data, still has damaging combos (Mewtwo is one of the few characters that Doc can get Down Throw into Down B on), can challenge attacks with Down-B, Up OOS, etc. Mewtwo could probably run away for a bit, but I don't think he can zone Doc for long. I haven't played the match on either side but I don't see it being in Mewtwo's favour.

I think Ganon might beat Mewtwo slightly. His range is something to watch out for, he lives for a long time, and he kills early. Definitely not the worst matchup though. That would probably go to Sheik.

 

[Chiroz]

Not sure if Doc counts. Better frame data, still has damaging combos (Mewtwo is one of the few characters that Doc can get Down Throw into Down B on), can challenge attacks with Down-B, Up OOS, etc. Mewtwo could probably run away for a bit, but I don't think he can zone Doc for long. I haven't played the match on either side but I don't see it being in Mewtwo's favour.

I think Ganon might beat Mewtwo slightly. His range is something to watch out for, he lives for a long time, and he kills early.

Why does Down-Throw to Down-B only work on the char with the highest second jump and best air dodge in the game? I would assume if anyone else can dodge it then so can Mewtwo but I have no knowledge of Dr.

You don't need to challenge Doc's shield with anything but Confusion, his movespeed is slow so he cannot punish it very well anyways. As for attacks with Down-B that probably works like a weaker Luigi and I don't have trouble dealing with random Luigi Down-Bs by just D-Tilting or Shielding.

The thing about the Doc MU is that as soon as Doc is offstage it's over. Mewtwo can just drop with N-Air and there's nothing Doc has to deal with it, his aerial mobility is too low for him to try to dodge it and his fall speed it too high for him to hit Mewtwo back and still make it.



As for Ganon, that description applies to every other char in the roster. Ganon has more range than anyone and kills everyone early and dies late. Yet every other char in the roster doesn't consider Ganon a threat. Just play patiently and carefully. Literally the only attack that I am scared of in neutral is Down-B. Everything else is incredibly easy to space and punish.

Ganon needs to hit you with a combo starter and then read you like a book to get the stock. Sure he only needs to read you like 3 times, but it's still reads that he is getting on you, the player, not on your character.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Why does Down-Throw to Down-B only work on the char with the highest second jump and best air dodge in the game? I would assume if anyone else can dodge it then so can Mewtwo but I have no knowledge of Dr.

You don't need to challenge Doc's shield with anything but Confusion, his movespeed is slow so he cannot punish it very well anyways. As for attacks with Down-B that probably works like a weaker Luigi and I don't have trouble dealing with random Luigi Down-Bs by just D-Tilting or Shielding.

The thing about the Doc MU is that as soon as Doc is offstage it's over. Mewtwo can just drop with N-Air and there's nothing Doc has to deal with it, his aerial mobility is too low for him to try to dodge it and his fall speed it too high for him to hit Mewtwo back and still make it.



As for Ganon, that description applies to every other char in the roster. Ganon has more range than anyone and kills everyone early and dies late. Yet every other char in the roster doesn't consider Ganon a threat. Just play patiently and carefully. Literally the only attack that I am scared of in neutral is Down-B. Everything else is incredibly easy to space and punish.

Ganon needs to hit you with a combo starter and then read you like a book to get the stock. Sure he only needs to read you like 3 times, but it's still reads that he is getting on you, the player, not on your character.

I never said it only works on Mewtwo. I said he's one of the few characters it works on. It works on a lot of fastfallers (Fox, Falco, Roy, Falcon, Lucina, Diddy, ZSS etc.) There might be more but I don't remember them. I'm just starting to play with it.

To be honest, I have no idea why it works on him. I think it's his size + fast fall speed (Mewtwo isn't that floaty of a character. He has the same fall speed as Mario/Doc), but I'm not sure. It works on him though.

I need to play around it with confusion, but I'm pretty sure that Doc can punish Mewtwo with N-air and Up-B. The sweetspot is much bigger than you'd think. I need to check.

Doc's down B isn't exactly weaker, it's just that it sends people more horizontally. Thing about Doc's is that it doesn't go as far as Luigi's but it is easier to control (both vertically and horizontally), making it a much better shield pressure tool. The priority is the same for both Luigi Cyclone and Dr. Tornado, so it's not exactly weaker.

I think people exaggerate the Doc = dead offstage idea. He suffers vertically, not horizontally, as the distances on his Up-B, second jump and Dr. Tornado are poor. However, Dr. Tornado goes a decent distance horizontally, and his air speed (while below average) is not bad enough.

One more thing which I forgot to mention is that Doc's low jump height makes him better at walling out characters. Very underrated aspect of the character.

Again, I don't know whose favour it's in. I don't think it's heavily in Mewtwo's favour though.

 

[Chiroz]

I never said it only works on Mewtwo. I said he's one of the few characters it works on. It works on a lot of fastfallers (Fox, Falco, Roy, Falcon, Lucina, Diddy, ZSS etc.) There might be more but I don't remember them. I'm just starting to play with it.

To be honest, I have no idea why it works on him. I think it's his size + fast fall speed (Mewtwo isn't that floaty of a character. He has the same fall speed as Mario/Doc), but I'm not sure. It works on him though.

I need to play around it with confusion, but I'm pretty sure that Doc can punish Mewtwo with N-air and Up-B. The sweetspot is much bigger than you'd think. I need to check.

Doc's down B isn't exactly weaker, it's just that it sends people more horizontally. Thing about Doc's is that it doesn't go as far as Luigi's but it is easier to control (both vertically and horizontally), making it a much better shield pressure tool. The priority is the same for both Luigi Cyclone and Dr. Tornado, so it's not exactly weaker.

I think people exaggerate the Doc = dead offstage idea. He suffers vertically, not horizontally, as the distances on his Up-B, second jump and Dr. Tornado are poor. However, Dr. Tornado goes a decent distance horizontally, and his air speed (while below average) is not bad enough.

One more thing which I forgot to mention is that Doc's low jump height makes him better at walling out characters. Very underrated aspect of the character.

Again, I don't know whose favour it's in. I don't think it's heavily in Mewtwo's favour though.

Mewtwo isn't a fast faller though, not even close. Most people classify him as floaty (although I will say he's more of an average fall speed).

Does it register as a true combo in training mode? How did you go about testing that this works on Mewtwo?



I didn't mean punishing a Confusion that already hit you (which is impossible for any character in the game if Mewtwo just shields), I mean if I try to Confusion your shield and you just roll, spot dodge or dash backwards. Your movespeed is so slow that all you will get is probably a Dash Attack or a grab. I don't think neither of those are attacks Mewtwo should fear, but IDK what you get out of them since IDK Dr.



I meant as in killing power. Mewtwo's tilt disjoints will clash with your tornado, so will our jab. Most of our attacks will clash with you just as they do with Luigi so your best bet is to bait and attack and punish afterwards. I don't exactly know how fast Dr's tornado is on startup but I don't have a hard time predicting Luigi's tornado most of the time.



Yea I am not talking about any other char. I am talking about this MU in particular. If I go offstage with an N-Air at a range where you can't Up-B what do you do? How does Dr. Mario return vs Falco for example.



Mewtwo cares not about this, lol. Ike hits Mewtwo with B-Air after full hopping so it's not like having a short jump is any better vs Mewtwo. In fact if your jump doesn't go above Shadow Ball it might be a hinderance more than it is a pro.

Also DR isn't the one that's going to be doing the walling out in this matchup.

 

[U-Throw]

Sorry for the late reply, @ Chiroz . I've been a little busy lately. Anyway, don't let the heavyweights scare you. Most of them are slower than Mewtwo is, and you have a better air-game than most of them do. Plus, Mewtwo hits about as hard as the heavyweights do, and you can out-zone all of them with Shadow Ball. Really, the only time you should be scared of them is if you let them get too close for comfort, and, with Shadow Ball, Disable, Confusion, your superior air-game, and Mewtwo's various other tools, that shouldn't happen.

Mario and Luigi can be scary, yes, but don't let that get inside your head. Luigi, in particular, is vulnerable to Shadow Ball zoning. Luigi's vulnerability to being out-zoned is widely considered his fatal flaw, and Mewtwo can do just that. Mario is a bit trickier, since he can Cape Mewtwo's Shadow Ball, but Confusion can reflect it right back. As a bonus, Confusion also provides limited defense against Mario's Fireballs. Also remember that Mewtwo has excellent punishing tools and excellent KO power. Mario can definitely dish out damage, but Mewtwo has a few of his own combos, as well as superior power and Disable. Neither of the Mario Bros. are easy for Mewtwo to beat, but neither have a clear advantage, either. I'd say the matchup is just about even.

Also, keep in mind that part of being a glass cannon is being easy to take out. Therefore, it's very rare for a glass cannon to have a truly comfortable matchup. That doesn't mean that they're unbalanced, though; it's just part of the job description.

Oh, and I totally agree with you on Dr. Mario. I don't think Mewtwo necessarily dominates that matchup, but he does have the advantage. And, just to be clear, I'm saying this as a former Dr. Mario main and current Dr. Mario secondary.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

He's not a fast faller, but he's one of the characters that it works on. I think it's his size. I don't know why it works on him but it does.

It registers as a combo in Training Mode. If you get all 6 hits (the down-throw + the Tornado), you did it correctly.

I wouldn't attempt to go in if I think I can't punish it. If I grab you, I can get Down-Throw to: Up-B, Up Tilt, Up Air, Up Smash (at very low %), Doc Tornado or probably Bair. Even if it's not a long combo, it's still a decent amount of damage. I might be able to Up-B directly

Startup on Doc Tornado is the same as Luigi Cyclone if I recall. We can still vary the height and horizontal distance much better than Luigi can (who practically has to pick between vertical and horizontal movement), so it may not always clank or trade with Mewtwo's attacks. It still kills early enough, but on the sides, it's pretty powerful.

Honestly wondering how Falco edgeguards in the first place. Phantasm? Not exactly sure how to answer this since I don't know what Falco does to edgeguard.

I'd think I'd be screwed if I lost my double jump and you hit me after that. But to be honest, that can happen with Mario as well. Nothing special about Doc there. How would you use Nair in a situation where I couldn't Up-B? Will Nair beat out anything?

You could keep out Mario, Doc or Luigi with Shadowballs but you wouldn't necessarily be able to kill them. The walling part is only if Mewtwo tries to punish Doc's attacks or tries to go in. Doc's lower height allows him to chain Back Airs quickly.

Anyway, I wouldn't know whether it's in Mewtwo's favour or not. I'm guessing it's not quite in his favour (maybe even at best) and if it is, it's not by a lot.

 

[Chiroz]

He's not a fast faller, but he's one of the characters that it works on. I think it's his size. I don't know why it works on him but it does.

It registers as a combo in Training Mode. If you get all 6 hits (the down-throw + the Tornado), you did it correctly.

I wouldn't attempt to go in if I think I can't punish it. If I grab you, I can get Down-Throw to: Up-B, Up Tilt, Up Air, Up Smash (at very low %), Doc Tornado or probably Bair. Even if it's not a long combo, it's still a decent amount of damage. I might be able to Up-B directly

Startup on Doc Tornado is the same as Luigi Cyclone if I recall. We can still vary the height and horizontal distance much better than Luigi can (who practically has to pick between vertical and horizontal movement), so it may not always clank or trade with Mewtwo's attacks. It still kills early enough, but on the sides, it's pretty powerful.

Honestly wondering how Falco edgeguards in the first place. Phantasm? Not exactly sure how to answer this since I don't know what Falco does to edgeguard.

I'd think I'd be screwed if I lost my double jump and you hit me after that. But to be honest, that can happen with Mario as well. Nothing special about Doc there. How would you use Nair in a situation where I couldn't Up-B? Will Nair beat out anything?

You could keep out Mario, Doc or Luigi with Shadowballs but you wouldn't necessarily be able to kill them. The walling part is only if Mewtwo tries to punish Doc's attacks or tries to go in. Doc's lower height allows him to chain Back Airs quickly.

Anyway, I wouldn't know whether it's in Mewtwo's favour or not. I'm guessing it's not quite in his favour (maybe even at best) and if it is, it's not by a lot.

I'll have to test your D-Throw combos once I get home because all that seems like too much. Also I am specially certain Dr. does not get U-Tilt from D-Throw because when I was playing him in friendlies it's the first thing I tried since it's a basic Regular Mario combo. Floaties go too far up to get hit by U-Tilt.

Falco edgeguards with N-Air and F-Air, dropping towards you with the hitbox already active.



Ok imagine this situation: I throw you out of the stage. I then jump after you and activate my N-Air. If I touch you I will carry you to the very bottom of the blastzone where you cannot recover (but I can). I also won't let the last hit connect, so it won't send you upwards it will actually spike you downwards. If you trade with my N-Air it will stop all your vertical momentum and, as Doc, you will not be able to make it back for sure.

Imagine that this happens too far out for your Up-B to reach the ledge (so Up-B is not an option).

What exactly can you do to avoid my N-Air that does not put you in so much lag that you will fall too low to recover? (I believe air dodging will cause you to fall too low for example)



It's not Shadow Balls. It's D-Tilt and U-Tilt. Getting through those 2 moves is harder than you might think if your speed is below average.

 

[pikazz]

man I really wish that Mewtwos attack was faster. he doesnt really need more power cause he can already kill. but its setting up and comboing thats a problem if he was alot faster in term of less endlag and faster animation, he would be a "little mac matchup" case there you will either win triumpibly with ease or getting stomped easy thanks to his glass cannon status

 

[U-Throw]

So, you guys think that the 1 frame decrease in Mewtwo's F-Tilt's duration is a buff or a nerf? I mean, the frame that was cut out had a hitbox attached to it, but, at the same time, the overall duration of the move was decreased. Personally, I don't think Mewtwo's F-Tilt needs a lingering hitbox, so I consider the frame reduction a buff. What do you guys think?

 

[Chiroz]

So, you guys think that the 1 frame decrease in Mewtwo's F-Tilt's duration is a buff or a nerf? I mean, the frame that was cut out had a hitbox attached to it, but, at the same time, the overall duration of the move was decreased. Personally, I don't think Mewtwo's F-Tilt needs a lingering hitbox, so I consider the frame reduction a buff. What do you guys think?

I think overall it doesn't really make a difference, lol.

 

[ZephyrZ]

So, you guys think that the 1 frame decrease in Mewtwo's F-Tilt's duration is a buff or a nerf? I mean, the frame that was cut out had a hitbox attached to it, but, at the same time, the overall duration of the move was decreased. Personally, I don't think Mewtwo's F-Tilt needs a lingering hitbox, so I consider the frame reduction a buff. What do you guys think?

It's only a frame, so meh. F-tilt has a long enough range that I don't think it's duration matters as much, though. I'd say it's a microscopic buff because is makes the attack slightly safer.

 

[Chiroz]

He's not a fast faller, but he's one of the characters that it works on. I think it's his size. I don't know why it works on him but it does.

It registers as a combo in Training Mode. If you get all 6 hits (the down-throw + the Tornado), you did it correctly.

I wouldn't attempt to go in if I think I can't punish it. If I grab you, I can get Down-Throw to: Up-B, Up Tilt, Up Air, Up Smash (at very low %), Doc Tornado or probably Bair. Even if it's not a long combo, it's still a decent amount of damage. I might be able to Up-B directly

Startup on Doc Tornado is the same as Luigi Cyclone if I recall. We can still vary the height and horizontal distance much better than Luigi can (who practically has to pick between vertical and horizontal movement), so it may not always clank or trade with Mewtwo's attacks. It still kills early enough, but on the sides, it's pretty powerful.

Honestly wondering how Falco edgeguards in the first place. Phantasm? Not exactly sure how to answer this since I don't know what Falco does to edgeguard.

I'd think I'd be screwed if I lost my double jump and you hit me after that. But to be honest, that can happen with Mario as well. Nothing special about Doc there. How would you use Nair in a situation where I couldn't Up-B? Will Nair beat out anything?

You could keep out Mario, Doc or Luigi with Shadowballs but you wouldn't necessarily be able to kill them. The walling part is only if Mewtwo tries to punish Doc's attacks or tries to go in. Doc's lower height allows him to chain Back Airs quickly.

Anyway, I wouldn't know whether it's in Mewtwo's favour or not. I'm guessing it's not quite in his favour (maybe even at best) and if it is, it's not by a lot.

Ok, so:

Down-Throw to Tornado is a true combo at almost all %s but it deals only 14% (in total) and if DIed correctly it doesn't kill until about 150% fresh (on Mewtwo. Dr. Tornado is much, much weaker than Luigi's). This isn't something fearful to be honest. Dr cannot chain combo U-Airs, I tried every single setup I could think of and I was never once able to get a guaranteed U-Air after another U-Air. This means your combos are barely 2 hit combos (like Mewtwo's) but you deal 10-14% per combo unless you decide to stale F-Air which I would recommend against.

The only very, very scary thing is that depending on DI Dr can get F-Air or B-Air (both kill moves) at kill % after D-Throw. I think that I can probably DI upwards and avoid both (or at the very least avoid the sweetspot of both) which would mean Dr. has no real options that put fear into Mewtwo.



Honestly it seems that with correct DI all you have out of Tilts/Grabs and Dash Attacks are 10-16% combos, which aren't that great. Also if my DI theory proves correct then you also seem to lack reliable kill options on Mewtwo.

I think Mewtwo can zone and wall out Dr pretty easily (just from theorycrafting on their movement option, range and their frame data) and I still have no idea what Dr could do against a Mewtwo that goes offstage with N-Air.




Edit: Oh god, this D-Throw to sweetspot F-Air is so beautiful goddamn. I have to lab this out, do you guys know if there's any way to chase DI to always land it?



Edit2: Apparently, as I theorized, you can just DI straight on top of Dr.'s head and then he can only get Dr Tornado out of it (U-Air too but it deals less damage) which is pretty meh (8-10% damage and doesn't kill until way too late). The dream is dead D:

Also this means that Mewtwo doesn't have to fear your throws. As I see it all you can get is 16% at max and you can't kill out of it.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

I'll have to test your D-Throw combos once I get home because all that seems like too much. Also I am specially certain Dr. does not get U-Tilt from D-Throw because when I was playing him in friendlies it's the first thing I tried since it's a basic Regular Mario combo. Floaties go too far up to get hit by U-Tilt.

Falco edgeguards with N-Air and F-Air, dropping towards you with the hitbox already active.



Ok imagine this situation: I throw you out of the stage. I then jump after you and activate my N-Air. If I touch you I will carry you to the very bottom of the blastzone where you cannot recover (but I can). I also won't let the last hit connect, so it won't send you upwards it will actually spike you downwards. If you trade with my N-Air it will stop all your vertical momentum and, as Doc, you will not be able to make it back for sure.

Imagine that this happens too far out for your Up-B to reach the ledge (so Up-B is not an option).

What exactly can you do to avoid my N-Air that does not put you in so much lag that you will fall too low to recover? (I believe air dodging will cause you to fall too low for example)



It's not Shadow Balls. It's D-Tilt and U-Tilt. Getting through those 2 moves is harder than you might think if your speed is below average.

I double checked yesterday. Everything I said (sauf up smash) works. Apologies for that. Seems like you have done the down b testing as well.

Ah, ok. Havent spent a ton of time with Falco so I'm working on it. If i recall correctly, if you hit with fair, you will send your opponent more horizontally out than vertically down. Same thing with Nair. Not hitting with the last hit will drag us down, but it's not like Falco can chase us. He can still mix it up by jumping high (if we guess that he will nair) or going low though. Not unique to Doc or characters with better recoveries.

Air dodging will cause me to fall too low? Doc's not going to sink if i air dodge and i can still act quickly afterwards. I'd have to guess correctly (i.e. that you will nair at that moment) and conserve my options. If you hit me in that very specific scenario, ggs, but that's not a Doc problem. I just got read.

Doc has some difficulty against disjointed characters because of his range, not his speed. Even then, the hitboxes on Mewtwo's d tilt and u tilt are very specific. And Doc bair is life.

Lol, the one combo that you found is the one combo that I wish was more reliable. I have never liked Mario's/Doc's fair due to the speed and awkward sweetspot placement.

At the very least I can go for regrabs, up b and up air after down tilt so it's not all bad.

 

[Chiroz]

I double checked yesterday. Everything I said (sauf up smash) works. Apologies for that. Seems like you have done the down b testing as well.

Ah, ok. Havent spent a ton of time with Falco so I'm working on it. If i recall correctly, if you hit with fair, you will send your opponent more horizontally out than vertically down. Same thing with Nair. Not hitting with the last hit will drag us down, but it's not like Falco can chase us. He can still mix it up by jumping high (if we guess that he will nair) or going low though. Not unique to Doc or characters with better recoveries.

Air dodging will cause me to far too low? Doc's not going to sink if i air dodge and i can still act quickly afterwards. I'd have to guess correctly (i.e. that you will nair at that moment) and conserve my options. If you hit me in that very specific scenario, ggs, but that's not a Doc problem. I just got read.

Doc has some difficulty against disjointed characters because of his range, not his speed. Even then, the hitboxes on Mewtwo's d tilt and u tilt are very specific. And Doc bair is life.

Lol, the one combo that you found is the one combo that I wish was more reliable. I have never liked Mario's/Doc's fair due to the speed and awkward sweetspot placement.

At the very list I can go for regrabs, up b and up air after down tilt so it's not all bad.

The problem with Dr and Mewtwo's N-Air is that Dr falls too fast, doesn't rise at all from DJ or Up-B and has mediocre aerial speed.

Other chars can mix up their recoveries or outright go past Mewtwo. I honestly feel like there are certain locations at which I can chase you and N-Air in a very particular way where no matter what you do you either get hit (and get dragged down) or dodge me and won't make it. Obviously this is all talking about at mid %s where I can throw you far away enough from the stage where you have to use your double jump to make it back.




Mario has the same range but he has an easier time vs the rest of the cast. His range is part of the problem, but his speed makes it easier for me to keep you out.



We can play each other if you'd like. I honestly feel like Mewtwo can gimp Dr. very, very easily, but IDK how the onstage fight will play out, I've never played any decent Dr.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I'm having a good feeling with Falco as of late. Despite his weak neutral game, he really can give a beating on the opponent when he has the offensive momentum. The only matchup that I just haven't been able to figure out is Rosaluma.
I also wish I was able to perform the frame cancelled Dair.

 

[Chiroz]

Zero made a video on Mewtwo. As expected, he thinks that Mewtwo's bad.

Ummm I agree with the D-Throw and with the U-Air buff, but I already think U-Tilt is good enough, I wouldn't mind a buff to the tipper damage (3% is so little) but the move is quite good as it is now. I wouldn't like U-Tilt to lose it's true combo capability into U-Smash.

I'd also like Mewtwo to get some anti juggle tool (buff N-Air please) and get either some moblity buff (air acceleration preferred) or weight buff.



Once all that happens he will be at least high mid tier.

Also Disable needs to be scarier. I hate that the move is so tame and can be avoided in 1000 different ways PLUS the usual shield. Also Confusion needs some more frame advantage, I DONT want it to true combo (I think D-Throw should be relegated to our combo throw, not Side-B), but right now it's scary to Confuse a Sheik or certain chars like that.

 

[U-Throw]

Ummm I agree with the D-Throw and with the U-Air buff, but I already think U-Tilt is good enough, I wouldn't mind a buff to the tipper damage (3% is so little) but the move is quite good as it is now. I wouldn't like U-Tilt to lose it's true combo capability into U-Smash.

I'd also like Mewtwo to get some anti juggle tool (buff N-Air please) and get either some moblity buff (air acceleration preferred) or weight buff.



Once all that happens he will be at least high mid tier.

Also Disable needs to be scarier. I hate that the move is so tame and can be avoided in 1000 different ways PLUS the usual shield. Also Confusion needs some more frame advantage, I DONT want it to true combo (I think D-Throw should be relegated to our combo throw, not Side-B), but right now it's scary to Confuse a Sheik or certain chars like that.

Why is Confusing Sheik and other, similar characters scary? Mewtwo has the frame advantage, so the only thing Sheik, or any character, for that matter, can do is jump away. If she attempts to attack Mewtwo, his frame advantage gurantees that she'll hit his shield, which leaves her completely open to counterattack. Obviously, letting herself fall to the ground isn't a good choice, so jumping away is Sheik's only safe option. No matter what she does, Mewtwo gets at least 8% on her with no repercussions. I just don't see what scares you about Confusing her. There's no situation in which Sheik will come out with the advantage.

I do, however, agree with you on Disable and Mewtwo's N-Air. Giving Disable the ability to deal high amounts of shield damage would be nice, and a little more coverage on his N-Air would be great. I'm not a big fan of buffing Mewtwo's weight, but I'd be down for some more air acceleration. However, personally, if we're talking about mobility buffs, I'd be partial towards faster dashing speed. That could help alleviate some of Mewtwo's problems with approaching and rushdown characters, as well as improve his punishing game significantly. That's just me, though.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Mewtwo's at frame disadvantage on hit Sheik can counterattack easily because she has disjointed attacks that come out in 5 frames or less (Fair and Nair).

 

[Chiroz]

Why is Confusing Sheik and other, similar characters scary? Mewtwo has the frame advantage, so the only thing Sheik, or any character, for that matter, can do is jump away. If she attempts to attack Mewtwo, his frame advantage gurantees that she'll hit his shield, which leaves her completely open to counterattack. Obviously, letting herself fall to the ground isn't a good choice, so jumping away is Sheik's only safe option. No matter what she does, Mewtwo gets at least 8% on her with no repercussions. I just don't see what scares you about Confusing her. There's no situation in which Sheik will come out with the advantage.

I do, however, agree with you on Disable and Mewtwo's N-Air. Giving Disable the ability to deal high amounts of shield damage would be nice, and a little more coverage on his N-Air would be great. I'm not a big fan of buffing Mewtwo's weight, but I'd be down for some more air acceleration. However, personally, if we're talking about mobility buffs, I'd be partial towards faster dashing speed. That could help alleviate some of Mewtwo's problems with approaching and rushdown characters, as well as improve his punishing game significantly. That's just me, though.

Sheik's F-Air auto cancels with 0 frames of lag, she only has the 4-5 frames of "landing animation". Since shield dropping takes 7 frames and Mewtwo's fastest attack is D-Tilt/Jab (which are frame 6). Sheik can land and even start a jab before Mewtwo can get out any of his attacks

It's scary because it puts Mewtwo in a positiin where Sheik can get all the shield pressure she wants and Mewtwo has 0 answers to it (running away I guess).




Other chars such as Falcon can land with an U-Air which also auto cancels and then he can go for a grab (which is punisheable by Mewtwo) or a Jab (which is 100% safe). Most Falcon's will go for the jab which is 100% safe for them, so your instict should be to stay in shield and not drop it, but they can mix it up and go for a grab.

Basically Confusing a Falcon puts me in a really bad position.



I've been doing this new thing in which I dash backwards and then dash back in again after Confusion, it's pretty cool but if the Sheik/Falcon is on point with her fast fall you still won't have enough time to punish. I guess you could try a PP Shadow Ball or Disable, that might work actually.

Also Confusion either has frame disadvantage or is neutral. I've had people do a frame 6 move before I can do U-Tilt which is also frame 6 AFAIK.




Edit: To explain myself better, it's not that Confusing a Sheik allows her to beat you in any way. But you're trading 8% damage to be put in a position you don't ever want to be against those chars. It's scary because you get placed into a position that you have to get away from immediately and if the Sheik/Falcon/etc goes for a read and gets it you're getting punished hard.

 

[Chiroz]

Mewtwo's at frame disadvantage on hit Sheik can counterattack easily because she has disjointed attacks that come out in 5 frames or less (Fair and Nair).

You can still shield the F-Air though (like U-Throw said), but you can't punish her after shielding which is what's kind of messed up (And she could go for Fast Fall into grab or something similar to punish your shield).

Basically Mewtwo has to go defensive after Confusing and even going on defense, which is supposed to be stronger than offense in this game, Mewtwo is still at a really bad situation that he needs to get away from.

I honestly don't want Confusion to true combo but I want it to be like D-Throw is right now, where the opponent is the one in the bad situation, not Mewtwo.

 

[U-Throw]

Ah, OK. I was mistaken. My apologies. Well, that's not good. If Sheik and Captain Falcon have that kind of advantage, then I do think that Confusion should give Mewtwo the frame advantage. On the bright side, Mewtwo is only put at such a disadvantage against certain characters, so it's not a universal issue. On the not-so-bright side, the characters that have that advantage already give Mewtwo enough problems as it stands. *Sigh* Oh, well, at least it's not as bad as it was in Melee, where Confusion would always leave Mewtwo completely vulnerable, regardless of whom he Confused. That was terrible... >_<

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I've always felt that Mii Gunner is pretty much a better Samus. That character basically borrows her moves and makes them better.

 

[RayNoire]

He also doesn't sound nearly as constipated when he Confuses something like he did in Melee.

We did lose some neat sound effects though.

 

[meleebrawler]

Ah, OK. I was mistaken. My apologies. Well, that's not good. If Sheik and Captain Falcon have that kind of advantage, then I do think that Confusion should give Mewtwo the frame advantage. On the bright side, Mewtwo is only put at such a disadvantage against certain characters, so it's not a universal issue. On the not-so-bright side, the characters that have that advantage already give Mewtwo enough problems as it stands. *Sigh* Oh, well, at least it's not as bad as it was in Melee, where Confusion would always leave Mewtwo completely vulnerable, regardless of whom he Confused. That was terrible... >_<

Doesn't knee lag horribly on landing? Or is nair to jab that hard to stop?

I've always felt that Mii Gunner is pretty much a better Samus. That character basically borrows her moves and makes them better.

Except Charge Shot, which is ripped right from Brawl.

 

[DrRiceBoy]

Charge Shot really bothers me. I don't really understand it. Shadow Ball and Aura Sphere outclasses it in almost every possible way. Shadow Ball is way faster, has way less end lag, can charge mid air, is safer on shield because of recoil, and can be used as a recovery move. Aura Sphere can be charged in mid air, the charge damages, charges much faster, and is overall better than Charge Shot at around mid-high aura. I feel like the biggest weakness of Charge Shot is not being able to charge in mid air. It's not like Samus is better than Mewtwo and Lucario in other ways either... It's something that irks me. Samus is meh as is, you would think they would at least give her a better projectile, especially since she's one of the only characters out of the entire cast from a shooter game. Samus mains really got the short end of the stick...

 

[U-Throw]

Charge Shot really bothers me. I don't really understand it. Shadow Ball and Aura Sphere outclasses it in almost every possible way. Shadow Ball is way faster, has way less end lag, can charge mid air, is safer on shield because of recoil, and can be used as a recovery move. Aura Sphere can be charged in mid air, the charge damages, charges much faster, and is overall better than Charge Shot at around mid-high aura. I feel like the biggest weakness of Charge Shot is not being able to charge in mid air. It's not like Samus is better than Mewtwo and Lucario in other ways either... It's something that irks me. Samus is meh as is, you would think they would at least give her a better projectile, especially since she's one of the only characters out of the entire cast from a shooter game. Samus mains really got the short end of the stick...

Yeah, I don't know what Sakurai was thinking when he made Charge Shot the way he did. You're also right about Charge Shot's main weakness being it's inability to be charged in midair. It really limits Samus's options when it comes to charging up Charge Shot. Personally, I'd give Charge Shot the ability to be charged in midair, as well as either a faster charging time or more power. That way, it can be on even footing with Shadow Ball and Aura Sphere.

Also, which projectile do you guys think is superior: Shadow Ball or Aura Sphere? Personally, I think Shadow Ball is better because of its incredible speed and power, as well as its utility outside of being a projectile, such as recovery and shield-breaking. Plus, the recoil and massive shield damage makes Shadow Ball safer on shield than Aura Sphere. The only thing Aura Sphere really has over Shadow Ball is charging damage, and, while that's certainly useful, I don't think that it's enough to measure up to Shadow Ball's strengths.

 

[DrRiceBoy]

Yeah, I don't know what Sakurai was thinking when he made Charge Shot the way he did. You're also right about Charge Shot's main weakness being it's inability to be charged in midair. It really limits Samus's options when it comes to charging up Charge Shot. Personally, I'd give Charge Shot the ability to be charged in midair, as well as either a faster charging time or more power. That way, it can be on even footing with Shadow Ball and Aura Sphere.

Also, which projectile do you guys think is superior: Shadow Ball or Aura Sphere? Personally, I think Shadow Ball is better because of its incredible speed and power, as well as its utility outside of being a projectile, such as recovery and shield-breaking. Plus, the recoil and massive shield damage makes Shadow Ball safer on shield than Aura Sphere. The only thing Aura Sphere really has over Shadow Ball is charging damage, and, while that's certainly useful, I don't think that it's enough to measure up to Shadow Ball's strengths.

At higher percents, I'd say Aura Sphere is better. It charges incredibly fast for how much it does. That is, of course, if Lucario is able to reach that high of a percent. Overall, I agree that Shadow Ball is better because of the reasons you listed. Aura Sphere is better at higher percents imo, but overall isn't better than Shadow Ball because Lucario can die. Also, unlike Aura Sphere, uncharged balls is useful.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Woah there! Are you guys being serious about Charge Shot?
I mean, I know it doesn't charge in mid air but aside from that it is an outstanding projectile. Though weaker than a Max Aura Sphere, it is consistently powerful and faster than both Aura Sphere and Shadow Ball, making the opponent's reaction time tighter. Plus it is possible to break shields with a Super Missile + Charge Shot follow up. Shadow Ball travels a bit slower due it's speed and it's jagged path, thus making it easier for your enemy to dodge it or perfect shield it. In terms of sheer power, Aura Sphere is the strongest but it requires a high percentage, thus making Charge Shot a bit more reliable all around.
Say what you have to say about Samus, but her Charge Shot, specially the one from this game, is pretty damn good and on a league of it's own when compared to the other two. It is the McDaddy of chargeable projectiles.

 

[U-Throw]

Woah there! Are you guys being serious about Charge Shot?
I mean, I know it doesn't charge in mid air but aside from that it is an outstanding projectile. Though weaker than a Max Aura Sphere, it is consistently powerful and faster than both Aura Sphere and Shadow Ball, making the opponent's reaction time tighter. Plus it is possible to break shields with a Super Missile + Charge Shot follow up. Shadow Ball travels a bit slower due it's speed and it's jagged path, thus making it easier for your enemy to dodge it or perfect shield it. In terms of sheer power, Aura Sphere is the strongest but it requires a high percentage, thus making Charge Shot a bit more reliable all around.
Say what you have to say about Samus, but her Charge Shot, specially the one from this game, is pretty damn good and on a league of it's own when compared to the other two. It is the McDaddy of chargeable projectiles.

Charge Shot may only have one problem, but that one problem is what kills it, in my opinion: it can't be charged in midair, which forces Samus to charge it on the ground, and, since she can't do anything while doing so, the opponent can easily approach her. If she could charge up Charge Shot in midair, then it would a much better projectile.

Shadow Ball almost totally outclasses it in most ways, especially since it can be charged in midair. Shadow Ball has utility outside of being a projectile, such as recovery, and it's much safer on shield than Charge Shot because of its recoil and shorter ending lag. Furthermore, uncharged Shadow Balls are incredibly useful for stopping enemy approaches and setting up punishes, which can't be said about Charge Shot. Plus, Shadow Ball can destroy opponents' shields on its own, whereas Charge Shot requires a Super Missile follow-up, which is very easy to see coming. And, Confusion allows Mewtwo to re-reflect Shadow Ball back at opponents, so he can throw Shadow Ball out with little fear of having it blow up in his face. Also, are you sure that Charge Shot it more powerful than Shadow Ball? Maybe Charge Shot just has weird knockback scaling, but I could've sworn up and down that Shadow Ball was more powerful.

Aura Sphere is debatable, since its power is dependent on Lucario's damage, but its charging damage can be used to stop enemy roll-ins, it can be charged in midair, and it's slightly safer on shield than Charge Shot because of its shorter ending lag. Overall, Charge Shot is faster and stronger than Aura Sphere, but, once Lucario reaches high-Aura, a feat facilitated somewhat by Lucario's ridiculous recovery on high percentages, Aura Sphere is not only more powerful, but it charges faster than Charge Shot, as well. I wouldn't say that Aura Sphere is more powerful than Charge Shot overall, but I would say that it's more powerful in certain situations. However, you're right about Charge Shot being more reliable.

All things considered, I'd say that Charge Shot's killing weakness is its inability to be charged in midair. I feel like Shadow Ball has more utility, as well as outclassing it in a few areas, and Aura Sphere is debatably better, if only for its charging damage, situational power, and ability to be charged in midair. That's what I think, anyway.

 

[RayNoire]

Isn't Charge Shot, like, considerably faster than Shadow Ball? By like 10 frames or something?

I think it's fine. You should be able to charge it in the air though.

 

[meleebrawler]

Charge Shot is definitely not as powerful as Shadow Ball, even if only by a slight margin, but it charges and travels more quickly. And I'm pretty sure Aura Sphere charges at the same speed regardless of percent. If you ignore the charge-damage utility it's easily the worst projectile of the lot due to it's terrible endlag and needing to be at REALLY high percents for it to start killing at comparable percents (it can easily be the most damaging though.)

Honestly though, mid-air charging isn't that big of a deal. Doing it when there's an enemy below is kind of dumb since it restricts you to dodging, so you'd have to be really high up to get any safe charge. The most you'll get from it is maybe shaving off a second or two after knocking an enemy offstage with an aerial. The only character that gets any sort of tangible benefit for doing this is Lucario, again due to charging damage.

Charge Shot may only have one problem, but that one problem is what kills it, in my opinion: it can't be charged in midair, which forces Samus to charge it on the ground, and, since she can't do anything while doing so, the opponent can easily approach her. If she could charge up Charge Shot in midair, then it would a much better projectile.

Shadow Ball almost totally outclasses it in most ways, especially since it can be charged in midair. Shadow Ball has utility outside of being a projectile, such as recovery, and it's much safer on shield than Charge Shot because of its recoil and shorter ending lag. Furthermore, uncharged Shadow Balls are incredibly useful for stopping enemy approaches and setting up punishes, which can't be said about Charge Shot. Plus, Shadow Ball can destroy opponents' shields on its own, whereas Charge Shot requires a Super Missile follow-up, which is very easy to see coming. And, Confusion allows Mewtwo to re-reflect Shadow Ball back at opponents, so he can throw Shadow Ball out with little fear of having it blow up in his face. Also, are you sure that Charge Shot it more powerful than Shadow Ball? Maybe Charge Shot just has weird knockback scaling, but I could've sworn up and down that Shadow Ball was more powerful.

Aura Sphere is debatable, since its power is dependent on Lucario's damage, but its charging damage can be used to stop enemy roll-ins, it can be charged in midair, and it's slightly safer on shield than Charge Shot because of its shorter ending lag. Overall, Charge Shot is faster and stronger than Aura Sphere, but, once Lucario reaches high-Aura, a feat facilitated somewhat by Lucario's ridiculous recovery on high percentages, Aura Sphere is not only more powerful, but it charges faster than Charge Shot, as well. I wouldn't say that Aura Sphere is more powerful than Charge Shot overall, but I would say that it's more powerful in certain situations. However, you're right about Charge Shot being more reliable.

All things considered, I'd say that Charge Shot's killing weakness is its inability to be charged in midair. I feel like Shadow Ball has more utility, as well as outclassing it in a few areas, and Aura Sphere is debatably better, if only for its charging damage, situational power, and ability to be charged in midair. That's what I think, anyway.

Saying Shadow Ball breaks shields on it's own implies that it can break full shields, which is untrue. I'd actually say that Charge Shot has the shield breaking edge due to it's speed giving the enemy less time to dodge. Shadow Ball just requires slightly less damage done to the shield.

One also has to consider that Samus has projectiles that don't use her charge to fire, as well as a zair. (Don't ask about 64).

Not being able to charge in mid-air is a disadvantage, but not a big one. It only seems that way due to Samus's slow falling, and it being Samus who is the flavour of the month for rants.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Aura Sphere is debatable, since its power is dependent on Lucario's damage, but its charging damage can be used to stop enemy roll-ins, it can be charged in midair, and it's slightly safer on shield than Charge Shot because of its shorter ending lag. Overall, Charge Shot is faster and stronger than Aura Sphere, but, once Lucario reaches high-Aura, a feat facilitated somewhat by Lucario's ridiculous recovery on high percentages, Aura Sphere is not only more powerful, but it charges faster than Charge Shot, as well. I wouldn't say that Aura Sphere is more powerful than Charge Shot overall, but I would say that it's more powerful in certain situations. However, you're right about Charge Shot being more reliable.

That's kind of like saying Bowser is weak because Lucario is even stronger at high percents, or like saying Sheik is a master at getting kills because Lucario is even worse at killing at low percents. Lucario's just an odd standard to hold anything by. I think it's best to just leave him out of this.

 

[Chiroz]

@ U-Throw and all others with the misconception.


Shields have 50% hp. Shadow Ball deals 25% damage. Charge Shot deals 25% damage. They do the exact same shield damage. Shadow Ball just deals more knockback.



Samus' Charge Shot charges faster and is faster on release and travel. Meaning it's much easier to land than SB. But in return Samus has a lot of endlag and CS doesn't have as much knockback.