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U-Throw

Smash Lord
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I suppose you guys are right. Personally, I still think Shadow Ball outclasses Charge Shot, if only by a little bit, but I can see how one could consider Charge Shot superior. Perhaps maining Mewtwo has slightly blinded me.

Anyways, the Mewtwo amiibo is launching on October 23rd in Europe! There's no word on when it'll become available elsewhere, though. I suppose importing one is always an option...
Pretty cool, huh? I can't wait to get my hands on it! If I can, that is:p.
 

pikazz

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I know this isnt the right place, but since I love mewtwo and this chat in particiular I made a new video 'w'

me (Dedede) and my Fiancie Ida (Lucas) on some friendly smash doubles!

speaking of smash doubles, if someone would like to play with us, feel free to ask 'w'
 
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I know this isnt the right place, but since I love mewtwo and this chat in particiular I made a new video 'w'

me (Dedede) and my Fiancie Ida (Lucas) on some friendly smash doubles!

speaking of smash doubles, if someone would like to play with us, feel free to ask 'w'
If only lag wasn't so prominent with doubles...
 

Igzex

I wish I looked this good with lipstick
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My favorite ally for the fair lady is villager. She rewards the Villager's cooperation and trust with either dizziness in a pocket or a weapon of mass destruction in a pocket.
 

LRodC

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Shadow Ball > Charge Shot > Aura Sphere > Sun Salutation, IMO. All are excellent moves though and some of the best projectiles in the game. It's hard to rank Robin's Thunder due to it being four different moves essentially.
 

Cutie Gwen

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Shadow Ball > Charge Shot > Aura Sphere > Sun Salutation, IMO. All are excellent moves though and some of the best projectiles in the game. It's hard to rank Robin's Thunder due to it being four different moves essentially.
Thunder, Elthunder, Arcthunder and Thoron count as different moves so they should each be rated seperately, Thoron+ is just Thoron though
 

cstonic

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I suppose you guys are right. Personally, I still think Shadow Ball outclasses Charge Shot, if only by a little bit, but I can see how one could consider Charge Shot superior. Perhaps maining Mewtwo has slightly blinded me.

Anyways, the Mewtwo amiibo is launching on October 23rd in Europe! There's no word on when it'll become available elsewhere, though. I suppose importing one is always an option...
Pretty cool, huh? I can't wait to get my hands on it! If I can, that is:p.
HYPU
I can't wait to get one and customize it rofllll
EDIT:Someone posted this in a group im in http://puu.sh/jhrXk/aad9aca742.jpg
WHAT THE
 
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Ryu Myuutsu

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Replaying Golden Sun The Lost Age. Didn't know it had a hard mode :confused: Imma have fun with that. Wished Dark Dawn had something like that.
Speaking of Dark Dawn, I swear that if I leave this world before playing a sequel to that game I'm coming back to haunt the devs at Camelot for the rest of their lives.
 
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LRodC

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Yeah, that's real. People knew about it for a while. I wonder why they opted to have it like that? How it is right now is pretty useless. A good jab would help Samus out a ton.
 

U-Throw

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This can't be legit...

Edit: It's legit... :/
http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_tips_(SSB4-Wii_U)
Check under Samus's tips. :/
...
:/
:/
:/
...Well, not really, but I'm certainly confused. I mean, why give a character something that's not supposed to be used? Why does Samus's jab have a second hit if it was designed to be useless? Personally, if this is the way that Sakurai is thinking, then I think Samus should have a jab similar to Roy's or Ganondorf's. Instead of having a weak, combo jab designed to rack up damage, Samus could have a powerful, single-hit jab designed to knock opponents away. That way, Samus's jab would actually be useful, compared to a combo that's intentionally designed to link poorly. I have no idea what Sakurai's thought process on that was, especially in light of Samus's slew of other problems. The last thing she needed was a deliberately dysfunctional move...
 
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MewtwoX825

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This can't be legit...

Edit: It's legit... :/
http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_tips_(SSB4-Wii_U)
Check under Samus's tips. :/
...
:/
:/
:/
Lol first Sakurai jumped on the band wagon for saying that shrinking One Horned Flying Purple People Eater by a damn pixel would be a disgrace to his character but making Samus in her power suite fight like a ****ing wimp is acceptable...

Yea I'm convince that him (and possibly Nintendo) don't give two ****s about metroid anymore.
 
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Ryu Myuutsu

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Lol first Sakurai jumped on the band wagon for saying that shrinking One Horned Flying Purple People Eater by a damn pixel would be a disgrace to his character but making Samus in her power suit fight like a ****ing wimp is acceptable...

Yea I'm convince that him (and possibly Nintendo) don't give two ****s about metroid anymore.
....One thing is not correlated to the other. Samus's moveset is well represented according to her series; her performance on this game is another story though...
 
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Igzex

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Balance between characters don't, and shouldn't, go according to plan.
 

LRodC

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Chiroz

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Happens with back air, up tilt, up air, forward air, forward smash, grab, and sometimes even jab (small characters). It's a big problem he has that not many people seem to know of except for this board, unfortunately.

Check it out:

https://miiverse.nintendo.net/posts/AYMHAAACAAADVHkVb7Jkrg

Holy **** dude.


Thanks so much for this. I'll try to get it become popular and post it in other places.







...Well, not really, but I'm certainly confused. I mean, why give a character something that's not supposed to be used? Why does Samus's jab have a second hit if it was designed to be useless? Personally, if this is the way that Sakurai is thinking, then I think Samus should have a jab similar to Roy's or Ganondorf's. Instead of having a weak, combo jab designed to rack up damage, Samus could have a powerful, single-hit jab designed to knock opponents away. That way, Samus's jab would actually be useful, compared to a combo that's intentionally designed to link poorly. I have no idea what Sakurai's thought process on that was, especially in light of Samus's slew of other problems. The last thing she needed was a deliberately dysfunctional move...

Game Design isn't as simple as you might believe. Because of the "comical" way the tip is written in not many people think of uses for the second hit, but here are some simple uses:

You miss the first hit, you can now perform a second hit that will come out much faster than any other attack.

You hit on shield, now your opponent can risk dropping his shield and getting hit by the second attack or he might fear the second hit and stay in shield. Samus might just run (and won't get punished because her opponent stayed in shield) or she could go for a grab since her opponent is staying in shield. Otherwise if he does drop shield Samus has the option to go for the 2nd jab which would punish the shield drop.





These are just 2 quick things that Samus is able to do because she has a 2nd hit on her jab. Sure the hits don't true combo and people are able to shield between both hits, but that doesn't make it all bad. Still that tip is quite "comical".





I dislike though that people are focusing so hard only on Samus. Mewtwo's Multi-Jab is actually worse than Samus double jab and we get no tip to make it obvious to players. I've been jabbed in between a jab I LANDED and my multi-jab starting up by a Falcon/Fox/Sheik (any fast faller with a quick jab, basically any of top tier that are not Mario chars).

Samus jab 2 can be shielded, sure, but Mewtwo's can just be attacked... (Maybe this happens to Samus too, I have no idea to be honest. But I would like people to look into Mewtwo too and notice how wrong most of his design is).

It's like with the hitboxes video. Mewtwo has more broken attacks than Samus does, but most people are focusing on Samus. Even most of you believe Samus to be much worse than Mewtwo in terms of bugs and design flaws. I do not believe it to be so.
 
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U-Throw

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Holy **** dude.


Thanks so much for this. I'll try to get it become popular and post it in other places.










Game Design isn't as simple as you might believe. Because of the "comical" way the tip is written in not many people think of uses for the second hit, but here are some simple uses:

You miss the first hit, you can now perform a second hit that will come out much faster than any other attack.

You hit on shield, now your opponent can risk dropping his shield and getting hit by the second attack or he might fear the second hit and stay in shield. Samus might just run (and won't get punished because her opponent stayed in shield) or she could go for a grab since her opponent is staying in shield. Otherwise if he does drop shield Samus has the option to go for the 2nd jab which would punish the shield drop.





These are just 2 quick things that Samus is able to do because she has a 2nd hit on her jab. Sure the hits don't true combo and people are able to shield between both hits, but that doesn't make it all bad. Still that tip is quite "comical".





I dislike though that people are focusing so hard only on Samus. Mewtwo's Multi-Jab is actually worse than Samus double jab and we get no tip to make it obvious to players. I've been jabbed in between a jab I LANDED and my multi-jab starting up by a Falcon/Fox/Sheik (any fast faller with a quick jab, basically any of top tier that are not Mario chars).

Samus jab 2 can be shielded, sure, but Mewtwo's can just be attacked... (Maybe this happens to Samus too, I have no idea to be honest. But I would like people to look into Mewtwo too and notice how wrong most of his design is).

It's like with the hitboxes video. Mewtwo has more broken attacks than Samus does, but most people are focusing on Samus. Even most of you believe Samus to be much worse than Mewtwo in terms of bugs and design flaws. I do not believe it to be so.
But the second hit can easily be shielded. Any decent player will just shield it. Using it is risking getting punished. Plus, if the first hit misses, why would the opponent get hit by the second one? There's no reason for him to just run into the second hit. Also, this applies to any character with a multi-hit jab.

...Or he can roll away and get out of range of any harm. Once that first hit connects, you can easily put your shield up and roll away. Heck, if Samus goes for a grab, you could probably even sidestep it. Also, like your first example, any character with a multi-hit jab can do something similar to this, but without the poor transition between the first and second hits.

There's no reason for Samus to ever use her Jab 2, so why does she even have it? Giving her a jab like Roy's or Ganondorf's would be much better for her, in my opinion. If Sakurai wants her to have a jab that only hits once, then he should at least make that one hit useful.

That only happens with certain characters. Mewtwo's jab works just fine against most of the cast. The same can't be said about Samus.

You can build a birdhouse with a cracked hammer. Good luck doing that without any sort of tool. Mewtwo may have misleading hitboxes, but his moves function just fine when they connect. His F-Air combos into itself and KO's, his B-Air can create a wall of pain at certain percentages and covers a wide area, his U-Air is a decent juggling move and can hit opponents through the lip of certain stages, and he has two KO throws, although his B-Throw is situational, when you do grab someone. Mewtwo's jab is only dysfunctional against a small part of the cast, and even those characters become vulnerable to it once they reach a certain percentage. Also, I'd like to point out that Teleport only bounces off the ledges of particular stages, and, even then, you have to Teleport from a specific area in order to trigger the glitch. Because of its situational nature, the Teleport ledge-bounce glitch is probably the least of Mewtwo's concerns right now.

Samus's problem is that some of her moves, while not necessarily misleading, are just bad in general. Her jab is deliberately dysfunctional, her throws are terrible, and Super Missiles don't KO, even at ridiculous percentages. That leaves her with very few KO options. Plus, on top of that, Samus has several misleading hitboxes and a mediocre recovery. Once you learn Mewtwo's attacks, they work just fine, but, in Samus's case, some of her moves are just bad as a whole.

Also, Mewtwo, as a glass cannon, is a good character on a conceptual level. As we've previously discussed, Mewtwo is just shy of being a solid mid-, maybe even lower high-, tier character. On the other hand, I have no idea what was running through Sakurai's head when he designed Samus. Misleading hitboxes, low KO potential, a dysfunctional jab, the inability to charge up Charge Shot in midair, mediocre recovery; what was he thinking? I mean, Samus isn't garbage or anything like that, but one must wonder what her design philosophy was. Once again, there's a reason Mewtwo is a good 6 spots above her on the most recent community tier list.
 
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meleebrawler

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Holy **** dude.


Thanks so much for this. I'll try to get it become popular and post it in other places.










Game Design isn't as simple as you might believe. Because of the "comical" way the tip is written in not many people think of uses for the second hit, but here are some simple uses:

You miss the first hit, you can now perform a second hit that will come out much faster than any other attack.

You hit on shield, now your opponent can risk dropping his shield and getting hit by the second attack or he might fear the second hit and stay in shield. Samus might just run (and won't get punished because her opponent stayed in shield) or she could go for a grab since her opponent is staying in shield. Otherwise if he does drop shield Samus has the option to go for the 2nd jab which would punish the shield drop.





These are just 2 quick things that Samus is able to do because she has a 2nd hit on her jab. Sure the hits don't true combo and people are able to shield between both hits, but that doesn't make it all bad. Still that tip is quite "comical".





I dislike though that people are focusing so hard only on Samus. Mewtwo's Multi-Jab is actually worse than Samus double jab and we get no tip to make it obvious to players. I've been jabbed in between a jab I LANDED and my multi-jab starting up by a Falcon/Fox/Sheik (any fast faller with a quick jab, basically any of top tier that are not Mario chars).

Samus jab 2 can be shielded, sure, but Mewtwo's can just be attacked... (Maybe this happens to Samus too, I have no idea to be honest. But I would like people to look into Mewtwo too and notice how wrong most of his design is).

It's like with the hitboxes video. Mewtwo has more broken attacks than Samus does, but most people are focusing on Samus. Even most of you believe Samus to be much worse than Mewtwo in terms of bugs and design flaws. I do not believe it to be so.
Thing is unlike Samus when Mewtwo hits with his jab 1 he can follow it up with other things like a grab or a dash attack, and he only risks getting punished after landing it on a small selection of characters at very low percents. It also has the unique ability of not sending Mewtwo into recoil when clanking.

Much of the hitbox issues @ LRodC LRodC highlighted aren't as severe as he makes them out to be. It's easy to make them look bad with still images, but in motion they're far less noticeable. If you actually saw bair in action you should be able to tell that the move is over when his tail is in that position. The slow startup is the bigger culprit for missing than a trail.

I've tested shadow claw hitting as close as possible and I've only managed to make it whiff in the manner you've described once. You can hit with it point blank. It's likely just a matter of the animation coming out a frame or so before the actual attack. So don't use fair too close to the ground.

Fsmash dead zone is definitely annoying and could easily be fixed with a sourspot on his hands as in Melee, but unfortunately for @ Chiroz Chiroz that's part of why dsmash exists.

Uair's hit trails below Mewtwo are so faint that you pretty much have to blink to see them, plus using an uair to hit people like that is unintuitive anyway, and the space it covers above Mewtwo is good like an uair should. What it could really use is getting stronger and/or faster to make it a better juggling tool.
 
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Browny

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I have heard there's a new pro Mewtwo player around, Richbrown one of the best brawl players used him in tourney on the weekend and
From Rich Brown JV2 stocking Mr. ConCon game 1 with Mewtwo
For those who dont know, mrconcon is the only person to have taken a set off zero in the last like... 9 months. So that's no small feat!

From what I can see, he didn't win the set though but I definitely hope to see more of it. I found a few clips of him using Mewtwo on his twitch channel, he is extremely nair heavy.
 

Chiroz

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I have heard there's a new pro Mewtwo player around, Richbrown one of the best brawl players used him in tourney on the weekend and

For those who dont know, mrconcon is the only person to have taken a set off zero in the last like... 9 months. So that's no small feat!

From what I can see, he didn't win the set though but I definitely hope to see more of it. I found a few clips of him using Mewtwo on his twitch channel, he is extremely nair heavy.

I know Rich irl. I see him basically every week, I bunked with him at EVO. Rich only plays Mewtwo for fun though and I've seen his Mewtwo (we've played a lot of friendlies vs the same people and normally my Mewtwo does better than his against the other people we play). I would say it isn't exactly that Rich's Mewtwo is high level, it's mostly that Rich himself is a really high level player. I've had Rich himself and a mutual friend of ours who used Mewtwo much better than Rich (named Panda) tell me that I understand the character better than both of them but I still lack "intelligence/smarts" as a player (fundamentals) to play better.

I honestly think Mewtwo is good vs Luigi. Which is probably the reason Rich used him instead of Oli or Luigi dittoing.

You guys have to remember though that sometimes a player plays well because he is smart and has strong fundamentals, that's different than knowing/understanding a character.





But the second hit can easily be shielded. Any decent player will just shield it. Using it is risking getting punished. Plus, if the first hit misses, why would the opponent get hit by the second one? There's no reason for him to just run into the second hit. Also, this applies to any character with a multi-hit jab.

...Or he can roll away and get out of range of any harm. Once that first hit connects, you can easily put your shield up and roll away. Heck, if Samus goes for a grab, you could probably even sidestep it. Also, like your first example, any character with a multi-hit jab can do something similar to this, but without the poor transition between the first and second hits.

There's no reason for Samus to ever use her Jab 2, so why does she even have it? Giving her a jab like Roy's or Ganondorf's would be much better for her, in my opinion. If Sakurai wants her to have a jab that only hits once, then he should at least make that one hit useful.

That only happens with certain characters. Mewtwo's jab works just fine against most of the cast. The same can't be said about Samus.

You can build a birdhouse with a cracked hammer. Good luck doing that without any sort of tool. Mewtwo may have misleading hitboxes, but his moves function just fine when they connect. His F-Air combos into itself and KO's, his B-Air can create a wall of pain at certain percentages and covers a wide area, his U-Air is a decent juggling move and can hit opponents through the lip of certain stages, and he has two KO throws, although his B-Throw is situational, when you do grab someone. Mewtwo's jab is only dysfunctional against a small part of the cast, and even those characters become vulnerable to it once they reach a certain percentage. Also, I'd like to point out that Teleport only bounces off the ledges of particular stages, and, even then, you have to Teleport from a specific area in order to trigger the glitch. Because of its situational nature, the Teleport ledge-bounce glitch is probably the least of Mewtwo's concerns right now.

Samus's problem is that some of her moves, while not necessarily misleading, are just bad in general. Her jab is deliberately dysfunctional, her throws are terrible, and Super Missiles don't KO, even at ridiculous percentages. That leaves her with very few KO options. Plus, on top of that, Samus has several misleading hitboxes and a mediocre recovery. Once you learn Mewtwo's attacks, they work just fine, but, in Samus's case, some of her moves are just bad as a whole.

Also, Mewtwo, as a glass cannon, is a good character on a conceptual level. As we've previously discussed, Mewtwo is just shy of being a solid mid-, maybe even lower high-, tier character. On the other hand, I have no idea what was running through Sakurai's head when he designed Samus. Misleading hitboxes, low KO potential, a dysfunctional jab, the inability to charge up Charge Shot in midair, mediocre recovery; what was he thinking? I mean, Samus isn't garbage or anything like that, but one must wonder what her design philosophy was. Once again, there's a reason Mewtwo is a good 6 spots above her on the most recent community tier list.

You didn't understand any of my examples, so I will try to explain it in another way:



Say I am Samus and throw out jab 1 and I miss or you shield it, what do you do?



Say I am Gdorf and I miss or you shield my jab, what do you do?




You can imagine you're Mewtwo in these examples and that you have frame perfect reaction.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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Say I am Samus and throw out jab 1 and I miss or you shield it, what do you do?
Say I am Gdorf and I miss or you shield my jab 1, what do you do?
You can imagine you're Mewtwo in these examples and that you have frame perfect reaction.
Thing is, Mewtwo's attacks are faster, and Mewtwo's much better than Samus anyone. Ganondorf's a much lower tier than Mewtwo iirc, but this was before the latest patch
 

Chiroz

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Thing is unlike Samus when Mewtwo hits with his jab 1 he can follow it up with other things like a grab or a dash attack, and he only risks getting punished after landing it on a small selection of characters at very low percents. It also has the unique ability of not sending Mewtwo into recoil when clanking.

Much of the hitbox issues @ LRodC LRodC highlighted aren't as severe as he makes them out to be. It's easy to make them look bad with still images, but in motion they're far less noticeable. If you actually saw bair in action you should be able to tell that the move is over when his tail is in that position. The slow startup is the bigger culprit for missing than a trail.

I've tested shadow claw hitting as close as possible and I've only managed to make it whiff in the manner you've described once. You can hit with it point blank. It's likely just a matter of the animation coming out a frame or so before the actual attack. So don't use fair too close to the ground.

Fsmash dead zone is definitely annoying and could easily be fixed with a sourspot on his hands as in Melee, but unfortunately for @ Chiroz Chiroz that's part of why dsmash exists.

Uair's hit trails below Mewtwo are so faint that you pretty much have to blink to see them, plus using an uair to hit people like that is unintuitive anyway, and the space it covers above Mewtwo is good like an uair should. What it could really use is getting stronger and/or faster to make it a better juggling tool.

Mewtwo's jab isn't unique. Most jabs combo into grabs or tilts in this game. The unique thing about Mewtwo is his D-Tilt being such a good combo tool, not his jab comboing into D-Tilt. Samus' jab actually has more hitstun the Mewtwo's and less endlag which means she can combo it better than Mewtwo (except into grab because her grab is so slow, not because her jab is bad) (also this is theoretically, maybe the launch angle screws it up or something).

Samus hitbox problems are less than Mewtwo. She has less moves that whiff and the moves that whiff have less area where they whiff. You could also say the videos are "exagerations".




Also I am perfectly fine with F-Smash. I honestly don't think Mewtwo's arm should hurt. I think the deadzone could be made smaller (we should never miss on Bowser for god's sake) but otherwise having a deadzone is fine.
 
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Chiroz

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Thing is, Mewtwo's attacks are faster, and Mewtwo's much better than Samus anyone. Ganondorf's a much lower tier than Mewtwo iirc, but this was before the latest patch
Samus vs Mewtwo
Jab- Faster, less endlag
Jab2- Faster, less endlag
F-Tilt - Faster, less endlag
D-Tilt - Same speed
F-Smash - Faster, less endlag
D-Smash - Faster

F-Air - Faster
B-Air - Faster - Auto Cancels, less endlag
U-Air - Faster - Auto Cancels, less endlag
D-Air - Same speed but much more effective, less endlag

Neutral-B - Faster
Up-B - Faster





Mewtwo vs Samus
U-Tilt - Faster, less endlag
U-Smash - Faster
D-Tilt - Same Speed, less endlag

N-Air - Faster
D-Air - Same Speed

Side-B - Faster
Down-B - Faster





I urge you all to look up your data before you claim things you do not know. It honestly feel like you guys are just going off what you read from other people instead of actually knowing the facts.

Mewtwo has a total of 3 attacks that are faster than Samus since specials should not count towards the comparison.

Samus also has less endlag in the ground on most of her moves which also make her safer than Mewtwo (well if we're not accounting for spacing, Mewtwo has more range so technically he's safer). In the air, she also has less endlag on most of her moves and she has auto cancel on some of them (including Z-Air) which makes her much faster thab Mewtwo in that regard.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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Samus vs Mewtwo
Jab- Faster
Jab2- Faster
F-Tilt - Faster
D-Tilt - Same speed
F-Smash - Faster
D-Smash - Faster

F-Air - Faster
B-Air - Faster - Auto Cancels
U-Air - Faster - Auto Cancels
D-Air - Same speed but much more effective

Neutral-B - Faster
Up-B - Faster





Mewtwo vs Samus
U-Tilt - Faster
U-Smash - Faster
D-Tilt - Same Speed

N-Air - Faster
D-Air - Same Speed

Side-B - Faster
Down-B - Faster





I urge you all to look up your data before you claim things you do not know. It honestly feel like you guys are just going off what you read from other people instead of actually knowing the facts.

Mewtwo has a total of 3 attacks that are faster than Samus since specials should not count towards the comparison.
Except an attack's speed isn't everything, hell, Mewtwo has a favourable matchup with his safer projectile, better recovery and reflector
 

Chiroz

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Except an attack's speed isn't everything, hell, Mewtwo has a favourable matchup with his safer projectile, better recovery and reflector
Lol, you were the one that just said "Mewtwo's attacks are faster" in order to give a reason why Mewtwo is better. I just proved that Samus has both better startup and better endlag than Mewtwo on 80% of their attacks and your reply is this?

Mewtwo vs Samus matchup doesn't make the char better either.



I can also prove that Mewtwo's hitbox problems are much worse than Samus too if you want me to make a video.



I don't mind people who say Samus is a worse character than Mewtwo in a general sense (without any specifics). Although I do not agree (I think Mewtwo is worse) I cannot prove to you that Samus is better than Mewtwo. But if you claim things such as: "Samus is faster, Samus has worse hitbox problems", etc. I can sure as hell prove you wrong on all of those accounts.

Most pros in my area though place Mewtwo in bottom tier (bottom 5) and they place Samus in bottom of mid tier or top of low tier. Although that's mostly because there's a really, really good Samus here who shows what she's got and places really high with her. Maybe if someone starts placing as high with Mewtwo (hopefully me in the future, but probably not, hahaha) then maybe their opinions change too.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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Lol, you were the one that just said "Mewtwo's attacks are faster" in order to give a reason why Mewtwo is better. I just proved that Samus has both better startup and better endlag than Mewtwo on 75% of their attacks and your reply is this?

Mewtwo vs Samus matchup doesn't make the char better either.



I can also prove that Mewtwo's hitbox problems are much worse than Samus too if you want me to make a video.



I don't mind people who say Samus is a worse character than Mewtwo in a general sense (without any specifics). Although I do not agree (I think Mewtwo is worse) I cannot prove to you that Samus is better than Mewtwo. But if you claim things such as: "Samus is faster, Samus has hitbox problems", etc. I can sure as hell prove you wrong on all of those accounts.

Most pros in my area though place Mewtwo in bottom tier (bottom 5) and they place Samus in bottom of mid tier or top of low tier. Although that's mostly because there's a really, really good Samus here who shows what she's got and places really high with her. Maybe if someone starts placing as high with Mewtwo (hopefully me in the future, but probably not, hahaha) then maybe their opinions change too.
Mewtwo's faster overall iirc
You're saying Samus is better than Mewtwo yet the matchup means nothing?
Samus is now considered worse than Mii Swordsman. Mewtwo has always been around mid tier
 

Chiroz

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Mewtwo's faster overall iirc
You're saying Samus is better than Mewtwo yet the matchup means nothing?
Samus is now considered worse than Mii Swordsman. Mewtwo has always been around mid tier

If you think the matchup of 2 characters determines which character is better then you don't understand what being better means.



I think it's possible that Mewtwo has a positive matchup vs Luigi, does that mean Mewtwo is better than Luigi then?



Mewtwo's attacks are not faster than Samus, I just showed you how 80% of her attacks have less startup and less endlag. He's not faster you're just not informed enough.



I value the opinion of pros more than the opinion of mostly FG players who do not understand the game at it's top level. I would urge you to do the same, that doesn't mean that you have to blindly believe what any good player says, but that you should gather the opinions from actual top placing players instead of places such as Smashboards where 95% of the people have no idea what they're talking about and most people are just following popular opinion instead of doing their own research.
 

Cutie Gwen

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If you think the matchup of 2 characters determines which character is better then you don't understand what being better means.



I think it's possible that Mewtwo has a positive matchup vs Luigi, does that mean Mewtwo is better than Luigi then?



Mewtwo's attacks are not faster than Samus, I just showed you how 80% of her attacks have less startup and less endlag. He's not faster you're just not informed enough.



I value the opinion of pros more than the opinion of mostly FG players who do not understand the game at it's top level. I would urge you to do the same, that doesn't mean that you have to blindly believe what any good player says, but that you should gather the opinions from actual top placing players instead of places such as Smashboards where 95% of the people have no idea what they're talking about and most people are just following popular opinion instead of doing their own research.
I misinterpretted your words that time
Attack speed isn't all but meh, Mewtwo certainly felt faster overall
Well **** you too. Considering this site is the largest and most competitive Smash site, think about what you say.
Go on a bunch of threads or ask actual professionals who aren't self-proclaimed and ask who's better
 

Igzex

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Mewtwo's widely considered low tier I thought. It's not because of those hitboxes though. Misleading hitboxes are far from new. Like, go play The Last Blade 2 and turn the debug dipswitch on that lets you see the hitboxes. The sheer number of misleading attack trails will give you people heart attacks if Mewtwo's hitboxes shock you so much. Only things that actually might be problems is forward smash not hitting people next to Mewtwo (Which again, moves that whiff on up close and personal people are not new and are usually because that move demands you space it right) and the grab sometimes missing small characters (Most games have the grab box appear at the lower half of the grabber to make it sure no one is safe).
 
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Chiroz

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I misinterpretted your words that time
Attack speed isn't all but meh, Mewtwo certainly felt faster overall
Well **** you too. Considering this site is the largest and most competitive Smash site, think about what you say.
Go on a bunch of threads or ask actual professionals who aren't self-proclaimed and ask who's better
Think about what I say? This is just like any other fan site for a game, 95% of the people here do not understand the game at a high level. Heck I still don't understand the game fully at a high level and I basically tied in these boards for 2nd/3rd place as Mewtwo players back when I only had 3 days using Mewtwo and everyone else had been using him for a month. I have been top player of other competitive games (like LoL) and I understand how popular opinion is based more on what the noobs think than the pros think.

Every main I've chosen in LoL is normally "low tier" (most of the times considered the worse champion in the game) when I pick him up but ends up being "top tier" (going as far as people saying he's broken) by the time World Championship comes up without any buffs or nerfs to the char. That's because people make assumptions that become popular opinpn and then never revisit these assumptions. You have chars like Season 2 Ezreal, Release Draven or Release Lucian being called "the worst char in the game" only to have the same people who would flame in-game about those champs pick them up once pros give the go-ahead that they're actually very, very good.



Self-proclaimed? I've had conversations with Zenyou, Mr. R, Vinnie, K9, VoiD, Xzaz, Larry, Tyrant. I know them all irl, I've slept at the house of some of them, I've given some of them rides and (to a few of them of them) I've even bought them lunch or drinks. This is why I said "top level players". I wasn't making it up.

People like Johnny Westside (the really good Samus) places very well against these type of people and some of them agree that Samus is not "that bad" (in their words) while most of them agree Mewtwo is one of the worst chars in the game.

Zenyou told me that Zero literally told him that Mewtwo is "the worst char in the game by far". Zenyou placed 3rd at the Texas National only losing to Ally and Zero btw. He also took Nairo to game 3, last stock, last hit at EVO.



I've never asked who do they think is worse, Mewtwo or Samus, but most people seem to agree Mewtwo is bottom 5 while the same opinion is not made about Samus, so IDK about that.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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Think about what I say? This is just like any other fan site for a game, 95% of the people here do not understand the game at a high level. Heck I still don't understand the game fully at a high level and I basically tied in these boards for 2nd/3rd place as Mewtwo players back when I only had 3 days using Mewtwo and everyone else had been using him for a month. I have been top player of other competitive games (like LoL) and I understand how popular opinion is based more on what the noobs think than the pros think.

Every main I've chosen in LoL is normally "low tier" (most of the times considered the worse champion in the game) when I pick him up but ends up being "top tier" (going as far as people saying he's broken) by the time World Championship comes up without any buffs or nerfs to the char. That's because people make assumptions that become popular opinpn and then never revisit these assumptions. You have chars like Season 2 Ezreal, Release Draven or Release Lucian being called "the worst char in the game" only to have the same people who would flame in-game about those champs pick them up once pros give the go-ahead that they're actually very, very good.



Self-proclaimed? I've had conversations with Zenyou, Mr. R, Vinnie, K9, VoiD, Xzaz, Larry, Tyrant. I know them all irl, I've slept at the house of some of them, I've given some of them rides and (to a few of them of them) I've even bought them lunch or drinks. This is why I said "top level players". I wasn't making it up.

People like Johnny Westside (the really good Samus) places very well against these type of people and some of them agree that Samus is not "that bad" (in their words) while most of them agree Mewtwo is one of the worst chars in the game.

Zenyou told me that Zero literally told him that Mewtwo is "the worst char in the game by Far". Zenyou placed 3rd at the Texas National only losing to Ally and Zero btw. He also took Nairo to game 3, last stock, last hit at EVO.



I've never asked who do they think is worse, Mewtwo or Samus, but most people seem to agree Mewtwo is bottom 5 while the same opinion is not made about Samus, so IDK about that.
This site has a large competitive side, if no one asks about Samus then no one will talk about Samus. Zero said Sonic's Bthrow is better than Mewtwo's
 

Chiroz

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This site has a large competitive side, if no one asks about Samus then no one will talk about Samus. Zero said Sonic's Bthrow is better than Mewtwo's

I've seen that video. Apart from not having kill throws and her Down-Smash not killing, everything else Mewtwo also has and to a worse degree.



Which is why I was saying you seem to be swayed by popular opinion like those videos instead of comparing them side by side.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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I've seen that video. Apart from not having kill throws and her Down-Smash not killing, everything else Mewtwo also has and to a worse degree.



Which is why I was saying you seem to be swayed by popular opinion like those videos instead of comparing them side by side.
Then make your own version of this, not to mention Shadow Ball doesn't get cancelled out
 

Chiroz

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Then make your own version of this, not to mention Shadow Ball doesn't get cancelled out
True, but Shadow Ball has much slower startup and travel speed in general. Also it gets cancelled out by stronger attacks, just maybe not Lloyd and Bombs.



I don't really have the energy to do that, nor do I care as much. I am just statig in our own chars forums that you guys are focusing too much on Samus when Mewtwo's problems, IMO, are actually greater than hers.





Anyways when I started this discussion it was to explain why Samus having a jab 2 is better than having only one jab even though they don't combo into each other. U-Throw still hasn't responded though.

The comment about Mewtwo's jab being worse than Samus (in terms of comboing into itself specifically) while true, was not the reason I posted, lol.
 
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U-Throw

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Well, this blew up. I'll do my best to respond to everything. OK, firstly, I'd like to point out that top-level competitive players can be wrong. Remember when Sonic was low-tier in Brawl? Or when Luigi was a terrible character in Smash 4? Or how about when Olimar was mid-tier in Brawl? When Dr. Mario was inferior to Mario in Melee? When Smash 64 as a whole was unbalanced? There are many, many more examples that escape me at the moment, and that's not even counting all of the incorrect, individual opinions that competitive players have had over the years. Top-level competitive players can be right, but they can also be dead wrong. Sometimes, popular opinion is correct, and sometimes it isn't. You can't say that one is always right and one is always wrong, because, simply put, the world doesn't work like that.

To answer your two questions, I suppose you're right. In Samus's case, I either roll away or sidestep, and, in Ganondorf's case, I punish him. Huh. I never thought about it like that. Still, I wish the two hits would link properly, since I would do the same thing to Mario, Luigi, Fox, Falco, Captain Falcon, and any number of other characters that I did to Samus, and yet their jabs link properly. It still feels like she's getting the short end of the stick.

Moving on, speed isn't everything. Mewtwo's set of aerials is almost definitely better than Samus's. Once again, Mewtwo's N-Air can be used to chew on shields and create a mobile hitbox, his F-Air combos into itself at low percentages and KO's at high percentages, his B-Air can create a "wall of pain" at certain percentages, his U-Air is a mediocre juggle move that can hit through the lip of certain stages, and his D-Air can KO, even without the meteor smash. Plus, I'm pretty sure that most of Mewtwo's aerials outrange Samus's. Samus's aerials, while not necessarily bad, simply don't approach that level of usefulness, regardless of how much faster they may be.

Furthermore, none of Samus's Smash Attacks even approach Mewtwo's in terms of power. They may not be quite as safe, but, then again, Smash Attacks don't define a character, and at least Mewtwo's can be used to get early KO's. As far as tilts go, Mewtwo's are also more useful than Samus's. Mewtwo's D-Tilt is an excellent combo tool, his F-Tilt becomes a KO move at higher percentages, and his U-Tilt has a disjointed hitbox and covers a broader area than Samus's.

Special Moves are another beast entirely, but I'll try my hardest. Shadow Ball is more powerful than Charge Shot, it's is much safer on shield, it can be charged in midair, and its utility extends beyond being a projectile, with Shadow Ball serving as a recovery tool. Plus, uncharged Shadow Balls are very useful. Charge Shot, however, charges faster, moves faster, and comes out faster. We could debate about which projectile is superior until the cows come home, but, for the sake of simplicity, I think we can agree that they're both excellent projectiles.

Teleport and Screw Attack are also debatable, seeing as Screw Attack excels at KO'ing, but isn't very good at recovering, while Teleport excels at recovering, but can't KO. However, seeing as Screw Attack is one of Samus's few KO options, whereas Mewtwo has a plethora of KO options, I would say that Teleport is better. Mewtwo gets a nice, lengthy recovery and a multitude to KO moves, while Samus has a mediocre recovery and a limited selection of KO moves. Plus,
@LIQUID12A did say that Mewtwo's N-Air was a more useful tool than Screw Attack, mostly due to the fact that Mewtwo's N-Air doesn't put him into helpless and because it can be spammed in the neutral game.

As for Confusion, I'd say that it's probably better than Missile. Super Missiles can't KO, even at ludicrous percentages, but they also deal too much knockback to be used to set up punishes. That said, they can be used to rack up damage and interrupt approaches. I'll give them that. However, I'd say that uncharged Shadow Balls are a better "weak projectile," since they can be used to interrupt approaches and set up punishes. Super Missiles beat them in terms of speed and initial damage, though. That's a tough one, but, despite our differing views, I think we could agree that, like fully charged Shadow Balls and Charge Shot, they're pretty close. Anyway, because of their similar levels of usefulness, Mewtwo basically gets an "extra move" on Samus. Confusion is very useful as a reflector, which, by the way, increases Shadow Ball's usefulness, since Mewtwo can throw it out with little fear of having it reflected back at him, and Confusion can be used to reset the game to neutral against most of the cast. Potentially, Confusion can also be used to set up a punish against inexperienced players. Oh, and it hits through shields and can serve as a third jump, too.

Next up is Disable and Bomb. OK, so Bomb can be used to stall in midair, just like Disable, and it also provides Samus with a limited degree of stage control. However, Disable, like Bomb, can be used to stall in midair, and it's an excellent punishing tool that can be used to set up early KO's and inflict powerful blows on opponents. Ultimately, I'm going to have to give this one to Disable because it's just an incredibly useful punishing tool, while I feel that Bomb's degree of stage control is just too limited to stack up to Disable.

I don't think we even need to compare Mewtwo's and Samus's throws. Mewtwo takes this one by long and far. I know I picked this whole thing apart, and I apologize for the long post, but, once I got started, I couldn't stop. Basically, I feel like Samus just falls short in too many areas. She has a mediocre recovery, limited KO power, questionable design choices, and, on top of all that, she has wonky hitboxes. Mewtwo, on the other hand, has a lengthy recovery, an excellent set of aerials, good KO power, and several miscellaneous tools, such as Confusion, which can reset the game to neutral, hit through shields, reflect projectiles, and potentially set up punishes, and Disable, which is a fantastic punishing tool. Essentially, I think that Mewtwo is better than Samus by too much in too many areas for Samus to outclass him. Neither of them are great, though; Samus is just worse. To reiterate a previous point of mine, Mewtwo is a cracked hammer, and Samus is splinters of wood. You can build a birdhouse with a cracked hammer, but good luck doing that with wood splinters.
 
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