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[U-Throw]

Ganon's Aerial Wizard Foot can break shields now

Ah, I wasn't aware. My apologies. In that case, I guess Disable could gain the ability to break shields. It'd certainly be a welcome change, even though I think some of Mewtwo's other areas could use buffing before Disable.

Also, I think Luigi uses karate. Lots of chopping, open-hand jabbing, and kicking is done in karate, and Luigi does all three of those fairly frequently.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Also, I think Luigi uses karate. Lots of chopping, open-hand jabbing, and kicking is done in karate, and Luigi does all three of those fairly frequently.

fairly frequently.

Fair

lel

 

[Chiroz]

As was said before the name of the player is Johnny Westside and you can watch all *this* week matches at the FADgames Twitch channel. It was thursday's tourney.

Just go to Winner's Semi or Loser's Quarter and watch him play. When asked how he was escaping Sheik's U-Air he said he can SDI out of it but only when he plays Samus. He doesn't know if other chars can do it but he's certain some can't.

I don't know what you're talking about when you say that Mewtwo's U-Smash doesn't link correctly. The first strike only knocks opponents out if you just barely graze them. If it doesn't link correctly, then you probably deserved it. Believe me, I've had it happen to me, and it's really not that hard to avoid. You just have to time it right.

Samus's Up Special is also a fairly bad recovery move. Sure, Screw Attack excels at KO'ing, but it's a really telegraphed recovery move because it's her only option, provided she isn't within tethering range. Teleport excels at recovery, not KO'ing. It's hardly fair to compare them. And I don't think one good KO move can compare to KO projectile, a command grab that doubles as a reflector, and a powerful punish tool, especially when said KO move is a poor recovery option. Of course, I wouldn't say Samus's other Special Moves are as bad as you seem to think, especially Charge Shot. Sure, it's inferior to Shadow Ball, but that doesn't mean it's bad.

I'd also say that Mewtwo's aerials are better than you seem to think. His D-Air is quick for a meteor smash of its power, and it can KO without spiking opponents. Mewtwo's B-Air and U-Air have strange hitboxes, true, but his U-Air is a mediocre juggle move, while his B-Air covers a broad range and can create a "wall of pain" at certain percentages. Plus, you can use both his B-Air and U-Air to hit opponents through the lip of thin stages. It's a good way to knock your opponent away from the ledge as you recover. Granted, Mewtwo's B-Air has quite a bit of startup, but, once you get the hang of it, it's a pretty useful move.

Mewtwo's F-Air also has a misleading animation, but it combos into itself and low percentages and KO's at high percentages. Plus, it comes out very quickly for a move of its power level. Depending on the situation, it can be effective edge-guarding move thank to its high, horizontal knockback. His N-Air has a large hitbox and traps opponents with auto-link angles, which deals decent damage. Plus, going off what @ pikazz says, Mewtwo's N-Air true combos into any aerial, barring his D-Air, at specific percentages. Also, similarly to Mewtwo's B-Air and U-Air, when recovering, you can use a rising N-Air to catch opponents sitting at the edge of the stage, which is facilitated by his N-Air's lingering hitbox, though the opponent must be closer to the ledge than with Mewtwo's U-Air and B-Air.

One matchup doesn't define a character. Besides, the Mewtwo/Sheik matchup really isn't too bad. Sheik may be able to rack up damage, but she has problems KO'ing Mewtwo, and Needle can be reflected. Plus, Shadow Ball overpowers Needle, and Sheik is pretty light. The matchup is difficult, but it's not totally in Sheik's favor. If you play defensively, keep Shadow Ball partially charged at all times, and watch out for Bouncing Fish, you should be fine.

Considering that, according to the latest community tier list, Mewtwo ranks 6 spots above Samus, I'd say you're likely either overrating Samus or underrating Mewtwo. Neither of them of are great, but neither are terrible, either. As a far as tier lists go, they're both pretty average.

EDIT: I edited out the stuff about Teleport ledge-cancelling. I was misinformed. My apologies. I also lack the ability to grammaticize today. >_<

Mewtwo's U-Smash has a maximum speed that it can link. If your opponent is moving left and you're moving right at an specific speed you can hit him dead center and it won't link correctly. Also the middle hits of the attack sometimes just drop your opponent if he is DIng.

I never said Samus' specials are bad, you seem to be misreading my post. I said the only thing Mewtwo has better than Samus that's not debatable is his specials. Everything else can be debated a lot who has it better. And Samus recovery is much better than Mewtwo's. Teleport is a really bad recovery because it's very slow at ledge snapping, most chars can hit you out of it when you do it, it's like a Little Mac recovery only worse in that regard. The good part is most people don't know the matchup so most people have not figured out you can do that. Samus can just tether and even if she needs to Up-B it comes out fast and reaches just about the same distance.

Samus Up-B is a good KO tool but that isn't why it's awesome. Just watch Johnny play and see for yourself.

Samus' U-Air combos into itself (true combo) in the air, it also combos into itself on landing and auto cancels. You can literally link 3 U-Airs into another aerial, that's Something Mewtwo is not able to do with any of his aerials.

Samus' spike is also much easier to land than Mewtwo's.

I didn't say Mewtwo's aerials were bad, I said they don't autocancel and they don't combo into stuff. N-Air is random and you cannot rely on it to combo. You might get it or you might not.



You've never played a decent Sheik from what it seems.

I only used Sheik as an example to showcase Samus' weight and combo escape capabilities, I wasn't specifically going for that matchup.

If you can reflect a Sheik's needles or Shadow Ball through them (more than once in a fight) that's a sign the Sheik is not good. If Sheik can't camp more than you that's also a sign it's not a great Sheik player. Sheik absolutely destroys Mewtwo, it's his worst matchup for sure.

Also U-Tilt, F-Air, N-Air, Jab, Grab, F-Tilt, D-Tilt. Every single one of those moves, if it hits Mewtwo, you should be eating 20-30% plus being thrown offstage and then being Bouncing Fished offstage 100% guaranteed (until about 80%).

Mewtwo is the easiest char to kill in the game though. Sheik killing is a problem in general, but Mewtwo is undebatedly the easiest char to KO in the game.

 

[pikazz]

I still think Mewtwo is a better character than Samus

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I still think Mewtwo is a better character than Samus

Holy crap! Yeah, Samus needs some help. I hope Sakurai and his team see this and do the necessary adjustments.

 

[U-Throw]

As was said before the name of the player is Johnny Westside and you can watch all *this* week matches at the FADgames Twitch channel. It was thursday's tourney.
Just go to Winner's Semi or Loser's Quarter and watch him play. When asked how he was escaping Sheik's U-Air he said he can SDI out of it but only when he plays Samus. He doesn't know if other chars can do it but he's certain some can't.
Mewtwo's U-Smash has a maximum speed that it can link. If your opponent is moving left and you're moving right at an specific speed you can hit him dead center and it won't link correctly. Also the middle hits of the attack sometimes just drop your opponent if he is DIng.
I never said Samus' specials are bad, you seem to be misreading my post. I said the only thing Mewtwo has better than Samus that's not debatable is his specials. Everything else can be debated a lot who has it better. And Samus recovery is much better than Mewtwo's. Teleport is a really bad recovery because it's very slow at ledge snapping, most chars can hit you out of it when you do it, it's like a Little Mac recovery only worse in that regard. The good part is most people don't know the matchup so most people have not figured out you can do that. Samus can just tether and even if she needs to Up-B it comes out fast and reaches just about the same distance.
Samus Up-B is a good KO tool but that isn't why it's awesome. Just watch Johnny play and see for yourself.
Samus' U-Air combos into itself (true combo) in the air, it also combos into itself on landing and auto cancels. You can literally link 3 U-Airs into another aerial, that's Something Mewtwo is not able to do with any of his aerials.
Samus' spike is also much easier to land than Mewtwo's.
I didn't say Mewtwo's aerials were bad, I said they don't autocancel and they don't combo into stuff. N-Air is random and you cannot rely on it to combo. You might get it or you might not.
You've never played a decent Sheik from what it seems.
I only used Sheik as an example to showcase Samus' weight and combo escape capabilities, I wasn't specifically going for that matchup.
If you can reflect a Sheik's needles or Shadow Ball through them (more than once in a fight) that's a sign the Sheik is not good. If Sheik can't camp more than you that's also a sign it's not a great Sheik player. Sheik absolutely destroys Mewtwo, it's his worst matchup for sure.
Also U-Tilt, F-Air, N-Air, Jab, Grab, F-Tilt, D-Tilt. Every single one of those moves, if it hits Mewtwo, you should be eating 20-30% plus being thrown offstage and then being Bouncing Fished offstage 100% guaranteed (until about 80%).
Mewtwo is the easiest char to kill in the game though. Sheik killing is a problem in general, but Mewtwo is undebatedly the easiest char to KO in the game.

I see. Regardless, that seems to be a rare occurrence. It hasn't happened to me enough for me to consider it a serious problem. Most of the time, it links just fine for me.

That's why you're supposed to go in high when you recover as Mewtwo. Mewtwo has a low falling speed, high air-speed, a lengthy midair jump backed up with a healthy set of aerials and a wall jump, Confusion as a third jump, Disable can be used to stall, a B-reversed Shadow Ball can move him absurd horizontal distances quickly, and Teleport can get you to the ground very quickly if your opponent tries to follow you into the air. Mewtwo has lots of options if you go in high when you recover.

Moreover, since Mewtwo has an insane midair jump and a wall jump, most of the time, you don't even need Teleport. What that means is that, because you aren't in helpless, you can use Mewtwo's U-Air, B-Air, or N-Air to attack opponents camping at the ledge. Once you've knocked them away, it's pretty easy to get back on-stage, since the opponent can't edge-guard you at the moment, and Mewtwo is already close to the ledge. Furthermore, if your opponent starts reading your aerial attacks and shielding them, then Confusion is typically a suitable alternative. You can use it to propel yourself upward and toward the stage while also grabbing the opponent through their shield, thus putting yourself in a position to get back on-stage while the opponent recovers from Confusion. The options Mewtwo has when recovering extend far beyond Teleport.

It doesn't matter that Screw Attack is fast. The point is that it's telegraphed. If Samus is within tethering range, that's what she'll do, because using Screw Attack in that zone paints a big, red reticle right on Samus. Now, if she's below the ledge, then she has to use Screw Attack, which means you can very easily predict her next move. Thus, Mewtwo can set up a counterattack to Screw Attack and hinder Samus when she tries to use it. I've actually stage-spiked quite a few Samus players who tried to recover low using Mewtwo's B-Air. It almost never blows over well. As that video above shows, Samus can even be knocked out of Screw Attack. It's just not a very good recovery move.

I'm fairly certain that Mewtwo's D-Air has more KO potential if you miss the spike. Samus's D-Air might be easier to spike with, but Mewtwo's has excellent payoff, even if you miss the meteor smash. Short-hopped D-Airs can actually be a viable kill option for Mewtwo. In regards to Mewtwo's N-Air, it isn't random. If the opponent is on Mewtwo's right, then they'll get launched right. If they're on Mewtwo's left, they'll get launched left. Therefore, you can predict the direction they're going to get launched in and, provided the opponent's damage is within that specific percentage range, true combo his N-Air into the relevant aerial. Correct me if I'm wrong on any of that, @ pikazz .

I would argue that Jigglypuff is easier to KO, given her lighter weight, but I suppose her excellent aerials and superb recovery affect how easy she is to KO. I guess what you say about Sheik is true, but, despite Samus's ability to escape combos, she has a myriad of other problems that plague her. Just look at the video that was posted above me. Samus has poor hitboxes, a predictable recovery, lacks adequate power on several of her attacks and throws, and has a few other issues that escape me at the moment. Just because she can escape combos doesn't automatically make her better than a character that struggles to. Her problems outweigh her strong suits more than Mewtwo's do. Once again, I refer to that community tier list. Mewtwo is a solid 6 spots above her for a reason. Samus might be able to escape combos better than Mewtwo, and she might have a slightly easier time combo'ing in the air, but she has a list of problems that weigh her down, whereas Mewtwo can overcome his issues a little better than Samus can.

 

[Chiroz]

I see. Regardless, that seems to be a rare occurrence. It hasn't happened to me enough for me to consider it a serious problem. Most of the time, it links just fine for me.

That's why you're supposed to go in high when you recover as Mewtwo. Mewtwo has a low falling speed, high air-speed, a lengthy midair jump backed up with a healthy set of aerials and a wall jump, Confusion as a third jump, Disable can be used to stall, a B-reversed Shadow Ball can move him absurd horizontal distances quickly, and Teleport can get you to the ground very quickly if your opponent tries to follow you into the air. Mewtwo has lots of options if you go in high when you recover.

Moreover, since Mewtwo has an insane midair jump and a wall jump, most of the time, you don't even need Teleport. What that means is that, because you aren't in helpless, you can use Mewtwo's U-Air, B-Air, or N-Air to attack opponents camping at the ledge. Once you've knocked them away, it's pretty easy to get back on-stage, since the opponent can't edge-guard you at the moment, and Mewtwo is already close to the ledge. Furthermore, if your opponent starts reading your aerial attacks and shielding them, then Confusion is typically a suitable alternative. You can use it to propel yourself upward and toward the stage while also grabbing the opponent through their shield, thus putting yourself in a position to get back on-stage while the opponent recovers from Confusion. The options Mewtwo has when recovering extend far beyond Teleport.

It doesn't matter that Screw Attack is fast. The point is that it's telegraphed. If Samus is within tethering range, that's what she'll do, because using Screw Attack in that zone paints a big, red reticle right on Samus. Now, if she's below the ledge, then she has to use Screw Attack, which means you can very easily predict her next move. Thus, Mewtwo can set up a counterattack to Screw Attack and hinder Samus when she tries to use it. I've actually stage-spiked quite a few Samus players who tried to recovery low using Mewtwo's B-Air. It almost never blows over well. As that video above shows, Samus can even be knocked out of Screw Attack. It's just not a very good recovery move.

I'm fairly certain that Mewtwo's D-Air has more KO potential if you miss the spike. Samus's D-Air might be easier to spike with, but Mewtwo's has excellent payoff, even if you miss the meteor smash. Short-hopped D-Airs can actually be a viable kill option for Mewtwo. In regards to Mewtwo's N-Air, it isn't random. If the opponent is on Mewtwo's right, then they'll get launched right. If they're on Mewtwo's left, they'll get launched left. Therefore, you can predict the direction they're going to get launched in and, provided the opponent's damage is within that specific percentage range, true combo his N-Air into the relevant aerial. Correct me if I'm wrong on any of that, @ pikazz .

I would argue that Jigglypuff is easier to KO, given her lighter weight, but I suppose her excellent aerials and superb recovery affect how easy she is to KO. I guess what you say about Sheik is true, but, despite Samus's ability to escape combos, she has a myriad of other problems that plague her. Just look at the video that was posted above me. Samus has poor hitboxes, a predictable recovery, lacks adequate power on several of her attacks and throws, and has a few other issues that escape me at the moment. Just because she can escape combos doesn't automatically make her better than a character that struggles to. Her problems outweigh her strong suits more than Mewtwo's do. Once again, I refer to that community tier list. Mewtwo is a solid 6 spots above her for a reason. Samus might be able to escape combos better than Mewtwo, and she might have a slightly easier time combo'ing in the air, but she has a list of problems that weigh her down, whereas Mewtwo can overcome his issues a little better than Samus can.

I am not doing a Mewtwo vs Samus matchup. I am just saying that Mewtwo and Samus share most of their programming/design flaws.

IMHO Mewtwo is just as bad as Samus and the things he is better at are just as "better" as the things Samus has over Mewtwo (U-Air and Screw Attack).

Basically I wasn't saying whether Mewtwo is better or Samus is better, I was just saying they both need a lot of work.



As for N-Air I think the right/left thing is not exactly the whole picture. Sometimes opponents are launched far and sometimes they are launched nowhere. Also I've seen opponents be on my left and pass to my right just before the last hit and I've also seen opponents stay on my left the whole attack.

I might be wrong and I might just not realize what it's going on but honestly it feels like it's very random. Yes, you can react to where people are right before the last hit but when they switch just 3-6 frames before the last hit and you were already moving towards your back Mewtwo's air acceleration is so low that you cannot just magically chase your opponent forward, you just missed the follow up. Plus I still don't understand why sometimes people pop off right in front of me and other times they are sent forward flying.

@ pikazz can you 100% consistently combo out of N-Air in training mode? Care to make a video?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Wait, Screw Attack is considered goos? The ****?

 

[Chiroz]

Wait, Screw Attack is considered goos? The ****?

It's one of the best OoS options in the game IMO.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

It's one of the best OoS options in the game IMO.

You said IMO, not to mention the move isn't that strong

 

[Chiroz]

You said IMO, not to mention the move isn't that strong

It is IMO. Everything I've said is my opinion, I ain't claiming it as fact, lol. I am saying it's much better than most of the tools Mewtwo has for dealing with pressure and that's a fact.


Also SA can true combo out of falling U-Air or Jab for kills (probably out of more stuff too). And what do you mean it isn't that strong? It's strong. It's a KO move.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

It is IMO. Everything I've said is my opinion, I ain't claiming it as fact, lol. I am saying it's much better than most of the tools Mewtwo has for dealing with pressure and that's a fact.


Also SA can true combo out of falling U-Air or Jab for kills (probably out of more stuff too). And what do you mean it isn't that strong? It's strong. It's a KO move.

I doubt it's as strong as you claim it is as in my experience, when I double jump and then do Screw Attack when my foe is light and at 90% it fails to kill

 

[U-Throw]

I am not doing a Mewtwo vs Samus matchup. I am just saying that Mewtwo and Samus share most of their programming/design flaws.

IMHO Mewtwo is just as bad as Samus and the things he is better at are just as "better" as the things Samus has over Mewtwo (U-Air and Screw Attack).

Basically I wasn't saying whether Mewtwo is better or Samus is better, I was just saying they both need a lot of work.



As for N-Air I think the right/left thing is not exactly the whole picture. Sometimes opponents are launched far and sometimes they are launched nowhere. Also I've seen opponents be on my left and pass to my right just before the last hit and I've also seen opponents stay on my left the whole attack.

I might be wrong and I might just not realize what it's going on but honestly it feels like it's very random. Yes, you can react to where people are right before the last hit but when they switch just 3-6 frames before the last hit and you were already moving towards your back Mewtwo's air acceleration is so low that you cannot just magically chase your opponent forward, you just missed the follow up. Plus I still don't understand why sometimes people pop off right in front of me and other times they are sent forward flying.

@ pikazz can you 100% consistently combo out of N-Air in training mode? Care to make a video?

Ah, OK. That I can agree with. Mewtwo and Samus both definitely need some serious work done on them. I apologize for misreading your post. I took it as you saying, "Samus is better than Mewtwo," which I disagree with, when you really meant, "they both need work done." I wholeheartedly agree with you there.

You may be right here. I remember getting true combos off of Mewtwo's N-Air when I first about it, but it does feel a little sporadic. I'm sure there's a formula to it, but I don't think anyone has figured it out yet. I would like it if @ pikazz posted a video. That could really help us out.

In regards to Screw Attack being better than most of the tools Mewtwo has, I'm not exactly sure about that. I'm not really doubting you, understand, but I'd like to know what it can do. It's not a good recovery move, but it is pretty powerful. What exactly can it do, aside from KO? I'm genuinely curious.

 

[LIQUID12A]

As a personal opinion, being a Samus main, Screw Attack is a high risk/reward move. Unsuspecting opponents can be caught by it, and depending on how high they are, SA can kill rather easily. That said, if you whiff, prepare to get set up on or heavily punished in the absence of edges or platforms. It's not that bad as an explicit recovery move since it can foil spike attempts and has some decent range that can be compensated with the grapple and bombs to extend air time and offset the recovery.

Is Screw Attack by itself better than most of Mewtwo's tools? Probably not. It's still an Up-B, which means you're left in a helpless state. If anything, Mewtwo's nair outclasses it in comparison because it can be spammed with short hops to rack up shield or chip damage.

 

[pikazz]

ooo, people want me to record about Mewtwos NAir? I am feeling honored!

I shall do it asap, but I arent aviable atm to do it

 

[Chiroz]

I doubt it's as strong as you claim it is as in my experience, when I double jump and then do Screw Attack when my foe is light and at 90% it fails to kill

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Samus

Charge Shot - BKB: 30, KBG: 60

Ike's U-Smash - BKB: 50, KBG: 80

Mewtwo U-Smash - BKB: 60, KBG: 110


Samus Screw Attack - BKB: 50, KBG: 240




Damage also influences knockback and the move only deals 1% damage, so obviously it's not as high knockback as the previous moves listed. But you have to remember that it also has invincibility on start up, it's frame 5 and can be done out of shield.

It's a kill move for sure.





Edit: I just tested myself in training mode. Samus screw attack kills 5-10% later than Mewtwo's U-Throw from the ground (% depends on how heavy the opponent is, the heavier he is, the more the difference). But Samus can get a screw attack in the air and even read an air dodge into screw attack.

Also from a Full Hop distance (not even Double Jump) I was able to kill Mewtwo at 70% (no rage and no DI on Smashville), so IDK about that tale of yours. This is even earlier than Mewtwo's own U-Smash just so you know.

Also Mewtwo is actually the 6th char to die off the top too. Kirby, G&W, Pikachu and Rosalina all die before Mewtwo from the top because of their fallspeed/gravity.



Edit 2: At 90% from a perfect Double Jump height with ZERO rage and PERFECT DI I was able to kill Bowser AND Dedede...

So yea, I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Browny]

I can't win.

The general public is so against Mewtwo, its futile. It doesn't help when the average smash 4 player is a kid (this isn't an attack, its the truth and I say that as someone who prefers smash 4 over melee 100%) and are incapable of reasoning against.

How can you win vs people who say he has no combos and you show them legit mewtwo combos and they dont listen. They say he is 'all glass and no cannon' and you show that he has multiple of the strongest moves in the entire game and they ignore you. They say his tail isnt disjointed, you give them 100% damning proof of them being wrong and they talk **** about z-axis which they dont even understand.

I really feel like Mewtwo is the Sonic in brawl. For years he was plagued by 'He has no priority' and was consistently voted bottom tier. I proved the disjoint on his bair was quite large, usmash and sideb had invincibility frames, uair was 4 frames oos and had a massive disjoint. No one ever listened.

It took two years until this happened

MLG Dallas 2010 SSBB Championship Bracket Results
1st (9) Gnes -Diddy Kong - $12,500
5th (11) E5py - Sonic - $2,500
6th (12) _X_ - Sonic - $1,750

And still everyone said he was still bad.

At no time in brawls history, did any other solo mid-tier or lower place that high in a national. NEVER. While sonic did it twice. It proved that no matter what the community said, those players who stuck to their main did well and proved beyond any doubt that the character was good.

I play Mewtwo a lot and I don't feel he is as bad as just about anyone says. At no time while playing him do I feel like he is fundamentally flawed. The players I lose to using him, I lose using any other character. I do fine using Mewtwo vs them just like I do my other mains. I'm not even being biased. I play a few characters (Ness/Sonic/Jigglypuff/Lucario) and while I don't think Mewtwo is a better choice in almost every matchup, he has far more going for him than a raft of other characters.

Who are these characters you ask? Well its simple; the characters you literally never see on any tournament stream. You know the ones. Go through the list of 53 or whatever characters and take note of which ones you never see played at a high level. There's a reason for that you know; its because even their mains have given up and switched to the point that their high-tier secondary for bad matchups is now their solo main.

I don't see that with Mewtwo. Yes he has flaws, but every character does. Just look at E5am vs d3hf at CEO, samus vs luigi. Even the top tier menace luigi is shown to have a crippling weakness in his recovery to the point he is made to look unviable garbage vs the supposed worst in the game.

I might not be able to convince the average forum user Mewtwo is good, but I'll keep playing him and work out new tricks. As always, I still think the key to Mewtwos success is better use of shadowball. Just like how in Brawl, Wario became top tier once players started stalling for the pure purpose of charging the waft and Olimar became terrifying once they stopped approaching, I think Mewtwo can use this too. Characters with the biggest potential for growth were the characters who abused simply not approaching ever (sonic, wario and olimar all got the biggest jumps in the tier list over time and were all campy as hell) and I believe Mewtwo is the same.

 

[Metros]

That was awesome! The ledge cancels were particularly impressive, and I loved the way the player used Mewtwo's N-Air to drag opponents down. I'll have to start doing that more often. The D-Air meteor smashes were impressive, as well. Combine that with the flashiness and humor in this video, and I found it quite enjoyable. Thanks for the posting this!


Yeah, that definitely works, but getting rid of them is much better. Pikmin devour shields in large numbers, and your options when shielding are very limited and telegraphed. It gives Olimar a chance to approach that you don't want him to have, especially since he has a ranged grab. Killing off Pikmin is a much better alternative, in my opinion.

Now, if you could get the timing between Pikmin strikes down to a science, like Raykz is suggesting, then Power Shielding might become a viable option, but, given the variables involved, I question the feasibility of such a task.

I apologize for the double post, mods. If there's any way to merge my posts, please do so.

I usually just try to play super-defensively. Basically, I either shield or reflect incoming Pikmin and throw Shadow Balls until I see an opening. Once I get that opening, I run in, punish Olimar as hard as I can, and then return to my previous shenanigans. It works most of the time, but it gets pretty tedious after awhile. Also, remember that you can reflect all of Olimar's Smash Attacks, which causes the relevant Pikmin to inflict surprisingly large damage and knockback on Olimar. I've actually gotten a few KO's using that method. It's particularly effective if, when you're trying to recover from being knocked off-stage, the Olimar player sits at the ledge and charges up an F-Smash.

I hope this helps!

In regards to the video, does anybody know the timing for the footstool>BSB lock with the turnaround above Dr Mario's head? How is it done so flipping fast...?!

I've been trying to understand this since Mewtwo came out to no avail.

Edit: Sorry, this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdBQqWZ_wwM

 

[HakuryuVision]

In regards to the video, does anybody know the timing for the footstool>BSB lock with the turnaround above Dr Mario's head? How is it done so flipping fast...?!

I've been trying to understand this since Mewtwo came out to no avail.

Edit: Sorry, this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdBQqWZ_wwM

How does he manage to teleport towards the ledge without falling off? : O
(I think i've read something about it months ago here, but i don't remember)

 

[U-Throw]

How does he manage to teleport towards the ledge without falling off? : O
(I think i've read something about it months ago here, but i don't remember)

I believe it's called a Teleport ledge-cancel. Basically, if you space Teleport correctly, then Mewtwo's teetering animation will cancel out Teleport's ending lag, and you'll be free to do anything you want immediately after Mewtwo exits Teleport. Typically, I think the momentum boost at the end of Teleport pushes Mewtwo over the ledge, so ledge-cancelling Teleport is a really good edge-guarding technique. It's pretty hard to pull off, though, not to mention being incredibly risky. Personally, I haven't entertained Teleport ledge-cancels because, in my experience, the risk outweighs the reward. But, who knows? Maybe you'll be more successful than I was!

 

[DrRiceBoy]

Found an incredibly awesome Mewtwo trailer on Reddit.

 

[Yoshisaurus Rex]

Found an incredibly awesome Mewtwo trailer on Reddit.

That was so beautiful...

 

[U-Throw]

Found an incredibly awesome Mewtwo trailer on Reddit.

Cool! I especially liked how they used voice clips from Mewtwo Strikes Back. That was pretty clever. Thanks for posting!

 

[HakuryuVision]

I believe it's called a Teleport ledge-cancel. Basically, if you space Teleport correctly, then Mewtwo's teetering animation will cancel out Teleport's ending lag, and you'll be free to do anything you want immediately after Mewtwo exits Teleport. Typically, I think the momentum boost at the end of Teleport pushes Mewtwo over the ledge, so ledge-cancelling Teleport is a really good edge-guarding technique. It's pretty hard to pull off, though, not to mention being incredibly risky. Personally, I haven't entertained Teleport ledge-cancels because, in my experience, the risk outweighs the reward. But, who knows? Maybe you'll be more successful than I was!

Oh boy, so you have to know the exact distance?
That's... actually making me really idolize the guy in the video for pulling it off perfectly.

I bet even if i spent a whole day trying to learn the perfect distance, i would mess it up 99% of the time.
(And yeah, the risk is way too huge, one mistake and it's a SD)

 

[U-Throw]

Oh boy, so you have to know the exact distance?
That's... actually making me really idolize the guy in the video for pulling it off perfectly.

I bet even if i spent a whole day trying to learn the perfect distance, i would mess it up 99% of the time.
(And yeah, the risk is way too huge, one mistake and it's a SD)

Nah. Like I said, I haven't entertained Teleport ledge-cancels because I think they're way too risky, but I'm sure you can find somebody on the Mewtwo forum who knows. @ Chiroz , @Daybreak, and @ ミスティック Speed are usually good sources for that kind of information. That said, I do vaguely remember someone telling me that the point you initiate Teleport at must be as far away from the ledge as the center of a platform on Battlefield is. I believe that was a rough estimate, though, and I'm not 100% sure I was actually told that, so don't quote me on it.

 

[DrRiceBoy]

Zero made a video on Mewtwo. As expected, he thinks that Mewtwo's bad.

 

[Chiroz]

Oh boy, so you have to know the exact distance?
That's... actually making me really idolize the guy in the video for pulling it off perfectly.

I bet even if i spent a whole day trying to learn the perfect distance, i would mess it up 99% of the time.
(And yeah, the risk is way too huge, one mistake and it's a SD)

Keep in mind that videos are edited to include only the times he got it right.

Until you see actual important matches (tourney) from the Mewtwo player you won't know how many times he fails for every time he succeeds.

I have been practicing ledge cancel a lot lately and I started using it at the last tourney I went, I used it quite a number of times (about 6-8 throughout the whole tourney probably). I did miss it 1 time and died at 20% >.>.



There's a Palutena main in my scene who gets it right basically 100% of the time. He was my inspiration to start practicing it. But at least Palutena doesn't SD if she misses like Mewtwo does .



Also while the way to execute this is, as you said, just a "perfect" distance that you must remember and measure, keep in mind that there's a sort of "safe zone" programmed into the game. Like you don't have to be 100% accurate. As long as you're about 80% accurate the game itself decides that that's where you want to teleport and helps you out.

Sort of like ledge snapping.

 

[Yoshisaurus Rex]

Zero made a video on Mewtwo. As expected, he thinks that Mewtwo's bad.

*sigh* Mewtwo really is a good character. The potential is all there but he just needs buffs on certain moves.

 

[U-Throw]

Zero made a video on Mewtwo. As expected, he thinks that Mewtwo's bad.

Well, I started the video expecting to hear some misinformation, but, surprisingly enough, I think ZeRo is mostly right. I don't think Mewtwo is bad in the sense that he can't stand up to most of the cast, but, relative to most of the roster, I do feel like Mewtwo underperforms to a particular degree. He's average in a game where most characters are above-par. Essentially, I feel like Mewtwo is Bill Nye in a room full of Isaac Newtons. He's fine on his own, but, compared to his peers, he pales a little bit. If Sakurai would just give Mewtwo a few buffs in the right places, I feel like his overall performance and, as result, his tournament presence, would increase astronomically. You know, a little power here, a little combo potential there, and Mewtwo would be ready to rock n' roll! He's so close to being a mid-, maybe even a high-, tier character that it hurts!

All that said, I do feel like Mewtwo has some untapped potential. It may not be much, but there's definitely something we haven't fully realized yet. If more higher-level players would pick Mewtwo up, I feel like it would come to fruition sooner, but, seeing as the odds are stacked against such a thing happening, it might be a little while before Mewtwo's full potential steps into the light. We'll see. In the meantime, though, I'd happily welcome some buffs!

 

[---]

Zero made a video on Mewtwo. As expected, he thinks that Mewtwo's bad.

Mewtwo has so much potential that has yet to be unlocked (which I do agree is directly a player's responsibility to discover, i.e. get good) but a large chunk of it is held back due to these unreasonable design flaws. Unlike Samus IMO, Mewtwo works better at a conceptual level, i.e. Give a reasonable buff and there will be a huge jump. I would absolutely love a change to D-Throw's angle.

There's a Palutena main in my scene who gets it right basically 100% of the time. He was my inspiration to start practicing it. But at least Palutena doesn't SD if she misses like Mewtwo does .

I would think it'd be harder to measure the distance, but **** it that's still more rewarding for what is more or less the same move. Next thing you're going to tell me is that she doesn't have the same vulnerability frames as Teleport. doesshe?

 

[Chiroz]

Mewtwo has so much potential that has yet to be unlocked (which I do agree is directly a player's responsibility to discover, i.e. get good) but a large chunk of it is held back due to these unreasonable design flaws. Unlike Samus IMO, Mewtwo works better at a conceptual level, i.e. Give a reasonable buff and there will be a huge jump. I would absolutely love a change to D-Throw's angle.



I would think it'd be harder to measure the distance, but **** it that's still more rewarding for what is more or less the same move. Next thing you're going to tell me is that she doesn't have the same vulnerability frames as Teleport. doesshe?

According to Kurogane Mewtwo's invincibility is frame 9 and Palutena's is frame 16 (so Mewtwo's vulnerability window is much less).

Unless you mean the ledge snap vulnerability, I am not sure how vulnerable Palutena's ledge snap is but Mewtwo's ledge snap is ridiculously vulnerable, lol. I get hit out of ledge snapping like half the time by players who know they can do that.

 

[U-Throw]

According to Kurogane Mewtwo's invincibility is frame 9 and Palutena's is frame 16 (so Mewtwo's vulnerability window is much less).

Unless you mean the ledge snap vulnerability, I am not sure how vulnerable Palutena's ledge snap is but Mewtwo's ledge snap is ridiculously vulnerable, lol. I get hit out of ledge snapping like half the time by players who know they can do that.

Why is Mewtwo so vulnerable when he ledge-snaps? Is it due to the size of his hurtbox, or it just bad frame data, or what? On the bright side, these sorts of issues usually get fixed between games, so, if Mewtwo returns in Smash 5 (which I think is highly likely, given his immense popularity and consistent relevancy), this will probably become a thing of the past. Just look at Lucas's and Ness's terrible grab-release frames in Brawl, and then compare them to their grab-release frames in Smash 4. It's a world of difference.

Also, that tidbit on Palutena's Warp is interesting! Thanks for sharing!

 

[Chiroz]

Why is Mewtwo so vulnerable when he ledge-snaps? Is it due to the size of his hurtbox, or it just bad frame data, or what? On the bright side, these sorts of issues usually get fixed between games, so, if Mewtwo returns in Smash 5 (which I think is highly likely, given his immense popularity and consistent relevancy), this will probably become a thing of the past. Just look at Lucas's and Ness's terrible grab-release frames in Brawl, and then compare them to their grab-release frames in Smash 4. It's a world of difference.

Also, that tidbit on Palutena's Warp is interesting! Thanks for sharing!

It's a bit of both really. Mewtwo's hurtbox is so big that many attacks that wouldn't hit other chars (like Mario's D-Tilt) will hit Mewtwo. Mewtwo also doesn't have a hitbox to "cover his ass" like Ryu/Marth/etc and his Up-B doesn't have any priority as say Samus'.

I also believe (although I've never tested it, so I am just talking out of my ass here) that Mewtwo lasts longer to ledge snap (bad frame data). I saw a video (I think it was MySmashCorner but I can't remember) that said that every character had a different number of vulnerability frames upon ledge snap and that some chars even had more or less vulnerability depending on the range/angle that they initiate their Up-B. I honestly feel like Mewtwo's number of vulnerability frame is more than everyone elses because from experience playing both as Mewtwo and against Mewtwo it's very easy to "time" an attack to hit Mewtwo upon ledge snap.

 

[Igzex]

ZeRo is so wrong. Like, he keeps referring to Mewtwo as a "he" instead of a she.


Everything else is spot on though.

 

[Browny]

It really annoys me when the best player in the world does literally no research on things

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quEhrISeCjg

He claims Mewtwos kill throws are weak compared to Sonic and Ness. Sonics bthrow doesnt even deserve a mention in the category of kill throws anymore (141 at the edge of the stage) while Mewtwos bthrow does it at 123.

 

[Igzex]

Is rage really a factor for Mewtwo when she dies under 90% most of the time.

 

[MewtwoMaster2002]

Personally, I think Mewtwo needs the best up-throw as in one that kills at the lowest percent. Buff back throw as well, and make him a little heavier. Buff all his moves too, with maybe making down-throw and his tilts as good set up. Also, make him a little faster.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

Zero made a video on Mewtwo. As expected, he thinks that Mewtwo's bad.

I really hate what Zero has to say about characters he's not used to. Mewtwo kills really easily if you know how to use him. He never gives enough attention to the characters that take more dedication to learn.
I can confidently say at this point- Mewtwo stands a chance against every character in the Smash 4 metagame. Anyone who opposes this does not know what Mewtwo can really do as a character.

 

[pikazz]

I do agree with ZeRo with some points that there are many characters that are better than mewtwo but that doesnt mean mewtwo isnt good. he is really good but compete with many others require buff in either killpower, combos or speed!

I am pretty sure that he was aimed to be a combo-sweeping powerhouse class canon since many of his attacks are in thoughs to be aggresive, but yet his slowness slows him down and is more used defensively (thanks by his lightweight) than aggresive that he was thought to be I really hope they can buff him so he can be a high tier with like a follow up grab and lots of more damage/killing or speed boosts

 

[---]

Personally, I think Mewtwo needs the best up-throw as in one that kills at the lowest percent. Buff back throw as well, and make him a little heavier. Buff all his moves too, with maybe making down-throw and his tilts as good set up. Also, make him a little faster.

To be fair, with DI Mewtwo has the best Up-Throw in the game.

You didnt account for DI though and it makes a major difference, and your numbers are not right, I know you did it on the 3DS though. You have Charizard at 133 and Mewtwo at 142.

I just tested it then, Charizard KOs at 126, Mewtwo KOs with no DI at 133. So theres a difference of 7 there, not 9.

With optimal DI it is drastically different, Charizard now KOs at 159 (!!!) And Mewtwos kills at 135. Can we just re-iterate how much of a gigantic change that is. Charizards uthrow kills 26% later while mewtwos kills a measely 2% when DI'd properly.

Mewtwo has the strongest uthrow in the game by a significant margin.

And thats not all! Not only is Mewtwos uthrow significantly stronger than Charizards, it still easily beats Charizards when landing on SV/BF platforms. Charizard now KOs at about 138% on those platforms while Mewtwo still KOs at 135%.

Can we please make that fact a sticky I swear I'm going to go through smash 4s entire competitive lifespan telling people this but I doubt they'll listen

I doubt B-Throw will ever be touched, although I can see Ness's being nerfed a bit eventually. And yes, please give us some sort of D-Throw set up at low %s.