Social Spoon Sword Social

[ZephyrZ]

Has there been any movement buffs to any characters before? I don't think there has, and I doubt they'd start with Mewtwo now.

Watch out for the placebo effect, guys.

 

[Chiroz]

Edit 2: OK, so, I did some more testing, and the Teleport ledge-bounce glitch seems to have diminished, though it hasn't been entirely removed. Apparently, you now have to Teleport from a very specific distance away from the ledge. Basically, in order for the glitch to actually take effect, you have to exit Teleport right below the ledge. Otherwise, you should be fine. Oh, and I did all of my testing on Boxing Ring, in case any of you are wondering.

On a side note, I was playing a friendly match with my brother, and discovered that, if Mewtwo air dodges while holding an item, then the item in question no longer spins around lightning-fast. Instead, it vanishes and reappears alongside Mewtwo. I know that it's not really a buff, but I thought it was a nice touch. I always hated the way items span around whenever Mewtwo air dodged, so I'm glad Sakurai finally decided to fix that.

Mewtwo's Teleport Bounce glitch is still exactly the same. You have to touch a part of the stage before appearing. The Boxing ring has a small square after the blue part. That's what has always killed us before.



I don't think it's ever getting fixed because all Teleports have it. But Mewtwo has it worse because he has a self windbox in the direction he is facing.

So while Zelda and Palutena "bounce" and don't ledgesnap they can still DI towards the stage and make it. If Mewtwo bounces his windbox pushes him farther away from the stage, ensuring an SD.

 

[U-Throw]

Mewtwo's Teleport Bounce glitch is still exactly the same. You have to touch a part of the stage before appearing. The Boxing ring has a small square after the blue part. That's what has always killed us before.



I don't think it's ever getting fixed because all Teleports have it. But Mewtwo has it worse because he has a self windbox in the direction he is facing.

So while Zelda and Palutena "bounce" and don't ledgesnap they can still DI towards the stage and make it. If Mewtwo bounces his windbox pushes him farther away from the stage, ensuring an SD.

Ah, I see. Oh, well, at the very least, the Teleport ledge-bounce glitch is easily avoidable. I guess I was just misperforming the glitch before. My B. Now, does the extra momentum at the end of Teleport actually have any benefits? Like, why is it even there? I'm inclined to think that Mewtwo would be better off without it...

 

[Chiroz]

Ah, I see. Oh, well, at the very least, the Teleport ledge-bounce glitch is easily avoidable. I guess I was just misperforming the glitch before. My B. Now, does the extra momentum at the end of Teleport actually have any benefits? Like, why is it even there? I'm inclined to think that Mewtwo would be better off without it...

He would, I think it was put there to add more endlag to the move so that it can be punished easier by the opponent.

 

[U-Throw]

He would, I think it was put there to add more endlag to the move so that it can be punished easier by the opponent.

I don't think that's how ending lag works. If Mewtwo Teleported into the ground, I'm pretty sure he would have the same amount of landing lag as if he didn't get the momentum. It's the frames that matter, right? In the air, I suppose he would be better off without it just because he'd be free of the ledge-bounce glitch, but the momentum does increase the total distance travelled with Teleport, and, seeing as the ledge-bounce glitch is already fairly easy to avoid, I think that it's a fair tradeoff.

Now that I'm really thinking about it, I'm fairly certain that the momentum is more beneficial than it is harmful. The only negative side effect that immediately comes to mind is the ledge-bounce glitch, and that's both easily avoidable and rather situational. Correct me if I'm wrong, but now I'm starting to think that the momentum is more helpful than it is harmful.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'm on Chapter 6 in Fire Emblem Sacred Stones and I already have 4 level 10 units. Damn

 

[Chiroz]

I don't think that's how ending lag works. If Mewtwo Teleported into the ground, I'm pretty sure he would have the same amount of landing lag as if he didn't get the momentum. It's the frames that matter, right? In the air, I suppose he would be better off without it just because he'd be free of the ledge-bounce glitch, but the momentum does increase the total distance travelled with Teleport, and, seeing as the ledge-bounce glitch is already fairly easy to avoid, I think that it's a fair tradeoff.

Now that I'm really thinking about it, I'm fairly certain that the momentum is more beneficial than it is harmful. The only negative side effect that immediately comes to mind is the ledge-bounce glitch, and that's both easily avoidable and rather situational. Correct me if I'm wrong, but now I'm starting to think that the momentum is more helpful than it is harmful.

That's not what I mean. When you Teleport in the air Mewtwo doesn't fall until after the Windbox ends. This makes Mewtwo last almost a full second longer in the air if you Teleport to the air.

If Mewtwo did not have that Windbox he could use Teleport to escape juggles and just Fast Fall into the ground. Because of the Windbox Teleporting into the air is 100% never an option, ever. Even Lucas can miss an U-Smash and still punish your Teleport.

Also if you somehow miss the ledge or don't ledgesnap it gives the opponent ample time to hit you with anything since you're just floating there for a second.




Mewtwo has no need for more distance on his recovery. And it's a very slight distance at that.

 

[Schnee117]

I'm on Chapter 6 in Fire Emblem Sacred Stones and I already have 4 level 10 units. Damn

Dat Arena Abuse.

 

[Chiroz]

Also the windbox causes Mewtwo to have max speed forward. Mewtwo's air acceleration is incredibly low. No matter how high you are you won't be able to move backwards after the Teleport which makes it so your opponent knows exactly where you're going to land. If he didn't have the windbox you could also decide to move backwards or forwards after the Teleport and not be punished as easily.



Trust me, that Windbox is only bad, it has 0 pros.

 

[---]

Our time will come some day (Late September/Early October?). Though I guess a buff is better than nothing.

D-Smash kills about 7-8% from what I've tested, which brings it more in line with Sweet Spot F-Smash. The latter is still probably more useful, but after a Disable, it would be to our benefit to keep in mind what stage we're on given the angles between the two.

F-Throw is still the same as ever, but at least it now has one defining quality over the other throws.

 

[meleebrawler]

I don't think that's how ending lag works. If Mewtwo Teleported into the ground, I'm pretty sure he would have the same amount of landing lag as if he didn't get the momentum. It's the frames that matter, right? In the air, I suppose he would be better off without it just because he'd be free of the ledge-bounce glitch, but the momentum does increase the total distance travelled with Teleport, and, seeing as the ledge-bounce glitch is already fairly easy to avoid, I think that it's a fair tradeoff.

Now that I'm really thinking about it, I'm fairly certain that the momentum is more beneficial than it is harmful. The only negative side effect that immediately comes to mind is the ledge-bounce glitch, and that's both easily avoidable and rather situational. Correct me if I'm wrong, but now I'm starting to think that the momentum is more helpful than it is harmful.

What it does is allow you to IMMEDIATELY get back to the stage after going deep to the side to wall of pain with bair or something.

 

[U-Throw]

I just had the weirdest thing happen to me in For Glory. It was me, Mewtwo, versus a Ganondorf player on Lylat Cruise. I was at ~50% and Ganondorf was at ~140%, both of us on our last stock. We were standing on the far left side of Lylat Cruise, and we both F-Smash each other simultaneously. Naturally, we both go flying, but the strange thing is that we both die at the exact same time. Like, same frame and everything. I'd never seen anything like it. Apparently, such an occurrence leads to Sudden Death, which I won by sweetspotting Mewtwo's Dash Attack. Anyway, that's beside the point. Has anyone else ever had something similar happen to them? It caught me completely by surprise, so I was wondering if anyone else on this thread had ever had a similar experience.

 

[Chiroz]

Our time will come some day (Late September/Early October?). Though I guess a buff is better than nothing.

D-Smash kills about 7-8% from what I've tested, which brings it more in line with Sweet Spot F-Smash. The latter is still probably more useful, but after a Disable, it would be to our benefit to keep in mind what stage we're on given the angles between the two.

F-Throw is still the same as ever, but at least it now has one defining quality over the other throws.

There's no reason to use D-Smash ever. It's either F-Smash or U-Smash.

D-Smash only comes into use if the opponent is recovering from below or F-Smash is x2 stale (which will never happen).

 

[Igzex]

I'm glad that peach's castle 64 is back. Our fair lady cares little for your feeble resistance all she wants to do is up throw you face first into a bumper.

 

[U-Throw]

There's no reason to use D-Smash ever. It's either F-Smash or U-Smash.

D-Smash only comes into use if the opponent is recovering from below or F-Smash is x2 stale (which will never happen).

I'm pretty sure that Mewtwo's D-Smash hits more powerfully up close than his F-Smash. His F-Smash is more powerful from farther away, but it also has that sour spot up close that doesn't deal as much knockback, as well as that blind spot right next to Mewtwo. The damage output of the sour spot is the same as Mewtwo's D-Smash, but I don't think the knockback even compares. Basically, I'm almost certain that his D-Smash is a better option for hitting opponents up close, due to its more reliable hitbox placement and superior power.

Also, from what I've seen, Mewtwo's D-Smash is faster than his F-Smash. His F-Smash comes out a little bit quicker, but his D-Smash has noticeably less ending lag, which I believe makes his D-Smash safer in most situations.

 

[pikazz]

There's no reason to use D-Smash ever. It's either F-Smash or U-Smash.

D-Smash only comes into use if the opponent is recovering from below or F-Smash is x2 stale (which will never happen).

I find 2 reasons why you should use D-Smash in 2 scenarios

1. Against opponent that dies upward more easily than horizontal (especially on small roof stages), like on Jigglypuff and Rosalina since they die more upwards than on the sides. (you could do U-Smash but they tend to whiff when they are not above you)
against fastfaller like Fox and heavy and bad-recovery characters like Little Mac and Ganon, F-Smash beats D-Smash in that scenario in a landslide

2. D-Smash is good looking <3 especially when you did a Jablock Disable on them

 

[Chiroz]

I find 2 reasons why you should use D-Smash in 2 scenarios

1. Against opponent that dies upward more easily than horizontal (especially on small roof stages), like on Jigglypuff and Rosalina since they die more upwards than on the sides. (you could do U-Smash but they tend to whiff when they are not above you)
against fastfaller like Fox and heavy and bad-recovery characters like Little Mac and Ganon, F-Smash beats D-Smash in that scenario in a landslide

2. D-Smash is good looking <3 especially when you did a Jablock Disable on them

Why would you use D-Smash instead of U-Smash for chars that die off the top?

The way to not whiff U-Smash is just dashing into your opponents body.

I'm pretty sure that Mewtwo's D-Smash hits more powerfully up close than his F-Smash. His F-Smash is more powerful from farther away, but it also has that sour spot up close that doesn't deal as much knockback, as well as that blind spot right next to Mewtwo. The damage output of the sour spot is the same as Mewtwo's D-Smash, but I don't think the knockback even compares. Basically, I'm almost certain that his D-Smash is a better option for hitting opponents up close, due to its more reliable hitbox placement and superior power.

Also, from what I've seen, Mewtwo's D-Smash is faster than his F-Smash. His F-Smash comes out a little bit quicker, but his D-Smash has noticeably less ending lag, which I believe makes his D-Smash safer in most situations.

D-Smash also has the same dead zone as F-Smash. The only time knockback matters is when your opponent is at kill %. If your opponent is at kill % and close enough for a sourspot F-Smash then U-Smash is a MUCH better alternative than using D-Smash.



Everyone keeps bringing up uses for D-Smash in which U-Smash is just purely better.

The only real argument for D-Smash is that it's safer, but honestly it's not like you can spam D-Smash and be safe. Being safer is not a real argument unless the attack is actually safe itself. Plus F-Smash has bigger shield push which makes it just as safe on shield.

I literally see 0 advantages to D-Smash over F-Smash and/or U-Smash except for "safer spam on neutral" which is something I don't do either. Spamming smashes on neutral is not a great idea.

I guess we can hit people recovering or on the ledge with it if we are godlike at timing and spacing.

 

[---]

In hindsight I gotta agree. Up-Smash kills about 3% earlier than D-Smash without DI and launches at a more vertical angle. Buff/lack of sleep got to my head. Derp. That said, looking over Meta Knight and WFT's buffs/changes there's still hope for Mewtwo to be fixed. Though Lucas getting such large buffs is disheartening, as is the fact we probably went down a bit on the non-existant tier list after this patch.

Whelp, back to waiting another two months to see if Sakurai has enough sense to give us a spoon sword.

 

[Chiroz]

In hindsight I gotta agree. Up-Smash kills about 3% earlier than D-Smash without DI and launches at a more vertical angle. Buff/lack of sleep got to my head. Derp. That said, looking over Meta Knight and WFT's buffs/changes there's still hope for Mewtwo to be fixed. Though Lucas getting such large buffs is disheartening, as is the fact we probably went down a bit on the non-existant tier list after this patch.

Whelp, back to waiting another two months to see if Sakurai has enough sense to give us a spoon sword.

Sakurai thinks having a strong projectile is too powerful, I am almost 100% certain of it.

Look at all the bottom tier chars that don't get buffed ever. They all have KO projectiles.



WFT and Zelda just got their first decent buffs after almost a full year of being trash. Samus and Dedede have received only nerfs until now.

Yet somehow having guaranteed kills out of a throw is ok.





Don't you just love comparing moves that are similar?

Lucas D-Smash comes out faster, has more active frames per hit, hits 3 times, all hits hit below him, all hits hit inside him, final hit hits behind him, final hit has more knockback AND has the exact same endlag (the move lasts longer because of all the active frames).

Like why can't Mewtwo D-Smash hit below or behind him and Lucas (who already can hit behind him with his U-Tilt) can? Are you kiddig me.

Then you got N-Air. Mewtwo's N-Air hitbox is smaller than his hurtbox, it has some random properties no one has been able to figure out, the suction windbox is incredibly bad and people fall out of it all the time (although this helps us gimp easier) and if you fast fall it you are at a disadvantage and specially so since Mewtwo's quickest option is frame 6. Not only that but performing N-Air is a full commitment for Mewtwo because his aerial acceleration is so bad that you can't change trajectories mid jump.

On the other hand Lucas N-Air hitbox is bigger than his hurtbox, you can control exactly where and how your opponent will pop up plus the suction windbox is incredibly good and assures you'll carry your opponent with you and fast falling it guarantees a combo out of almost any move you want including another N-Air. Lucas air acceleration is so good that even if you see your opponent run away from N-Air you can just back off and be safe.



All those Lucas' buffs though.

 

[---]

Sakurai thinks having a strong projectile is too powerful, I am almost 100% certain of it.

Look at all the bottom tier chars that don't get buffed ever. They all have KO projectiles.

My point exactly. If we had a sword, we be getting major buffs each patch as well. LMAO

 

[pikazz]

I know that everyone is blaming Sakurai for the buff and nerfs, but I would blame the Sakurai's team for not buffing mewtwo, especially the ones that is in charge for Mewtwo!

my guess is that the "Mewtwo team" is playing mewtwo atm and thinking "Mewtwo is fine as he is! he doesnt need any buffs" and doesnt buff him :C

sure, sakurai is the big boss over the game but he is not the only one making the game this time

 

[Chiroz]

I know that everyone is blaming Sakurai for the buff and nerfs, but I would blame the Sakurai's team for not buffing mewtwo, especially the ones that is in charge for Mewtwo!

my guess is that the "Mewtwo team" is playing mewtwo atm and thinking "Mewtwo is fine as he is! he doesnt need any buffs" and doesnt buff him :C

sure, sakurai is the big boss over the game but he is not the only one making the game this time

Sakurai has already expressed how he thought Samus was the strongest char in the beta (even though 16 pros thought she was the outright worst char) and he also thought she was incredibly powerful char Melee (even though she's viewed as bottom half) and nerfed all her projectiles to the ground in Brawl to the point where Charge Shot wouldn't kill at 200% (and missiles basically never kill either in Brawl or in Smash 4).

This is why I believe Sakurai truly fears KO projectiles for no good reason.

 

[U-Throw]

Sakurai has already expressed how he thought Samus was the strongest char in the beta (even though 16 pros thought she was the outright worst char) and he also thought she was incredibly powerful char Melee (even though she's viewed as bottom half) and nerfed all her projectiles to the ground in Brawl to the point where Charge Shot wouldn't kill at 200% (and missiles basically never kill either in Brawl or in Smash 4).

This is why I believe Sakurai truly fears KO projectiles for no good reason.

It's also probably the reason why Confusion wasn't a proper reflector in Melee. I guess Sakurai was scared that giving Mewtwo the ability to reflect a KO projectile would break him. Oh, well, at least we know he's realized that's not the case.

Also, to be perfectly honest, I don't blame him. I mean, having a fast-moving, long-ranged kill move doesn't come off as balanced, at least, not initially. Of course, once you put it into play, it becomes obvious that it is pretty fair, kind of like reverse-Communism. Eventually, Sakurai will have to come to senses, or, otherwise, the balancing team will, and Samus and Mewtwo will finally see the light. That said, it's going to be awhile before we get the next balance patch, so we should probably just sit back, relax, and learn to work with what we've got. It's not like Mewtwo is trash-tier, anyway. He's significantly improved from Melee, being average in a game where tiers don't mean as much, so he's got that going for him.

 

[DrRiceBoy]

Unfortunately, Sakurai doesn't balance the game around competitive play. He has stated many times that he doesn't view Smash 4 as a competitive game for advanced players. Characters with strong projectiles and the heavies are better in a casual environment, which is why most of them are low tier.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Samus and Dedede have received only nerfs until now.

I don't know about Dedede but I remember Samus' Ftilt getting a slight buff and Usmash getting a buff making it kill 17% earliar

 

[DrRiceBoy]

The little green Pokemon caught on tape!

http://gfycat.com/HoarseUnconsciousDiplodocus

 

[meleebrawler]

Don't you just love comparing moves that are similar?

Lucas D-Smash comes out faster, has more active frames per hit, hits 3 times, all hits hit below him, all hits hit inside him, final hit hits behind him, final hit has more knockback AND has the exact same endlag (the move lasts longer because of all the active frames).

Like why can't Mewtwo D-Smash hit below or behind him and Lucas (who already can hit behind him with his U-Tilt) can? Are you kiddig me.

Then you got N-Air. Mewtwo's N-Air hitbox is smaller than his hurtbox, it has some random properties no one has been able to figure out, the suction windbox is incredibly bad and people fall out of it all the time (although this helps us gimp easier) and if you fast fall it you are at a disadvantage and specially so since Mewtwo's quickest option is frame 6. Not only that but performing N-Air is a full commitment for Mewtwo because his aerial acceleration is so bad that you can't change trajectories mid jump.

On the other hand Lucas N-Air hitbox is bigger than his hurtbox, you can control exactly where and how your opponent will pop up plus the suction windbox is incredibly good and assures you'll carry your opponent with you and fast falling it guarantees a combo out of almost any move you want including another N-Air. Lucas air acceleration is so good that even if you see your opponent run away from N-Air you can just back off and be safe.

Lucas's Nair being bigger than his body isn't that impressive when you consider how small Lucas is. It also deals really low
damage even on a full hit. I still find it far easier to land hits with Mewtwo's nair even if it isn't as flexible. Also neither have windboxes, that's something called auto-link angles. Just look at Falco's new nair, if he does it while rising or falling fast enough
it looks weird but that's what it is. Plus, considering all of his other aerials are worse at chaining compared to Brawl it's only fair that nair is upgraded in this respect by comparison.

There's also this nasty quirk with Lucas's dsmash in that blocking one hit makes the other hits null, leaving him far more open for hitting a shield than Mewtwo.

Really, fsmash and dsmash are relatively equal in shield safety (pushback for the first and low endlag for the second). What dsmash is used for is safe reads. It may not be the most optimal punish tool due to it's lower damage and higher startup, but that's what your other two smashes and disable are for (plus spacing for fsmash). And if there is a deadzone up close like you say it's so small compared to fsmash that if you ever run afoul of it you were probably in a situation that called for usmash anyway. Mewtwo points in his dsmash for a reason: he knew without a doubt that you'd land there. Finally I don't care if running up and usmashing is technically stronger, especially now that the gap is smaller. There's no way you can convince me to try this on Pikachu or Kirby on the ground.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

I have seen the light. *-*

 

[U-Throw]

I have seen the light. *-*

Fix'd to be more epic. Seriously, though, congratulations! Sounds like things are getting pretty serious!

I'm so jealous...

 

[ミスティック Speed]

Fix'd to be more epic. Seriously, though, congratulations! Sounds like things are getting pretty serious!

I'm so jealous...

huh, what? o.o
What do you mean things are getting serious?! xD

 

[U-Throw]

huh, what? o.o
What do you mean things are getting serious?! xD

Oh, um, I, uh, figured you were referring to you and your boyfriend kissing... I mean, that's what you meant the last time you used that phrase, right? You meant something different this time, didn't you? Gosh, I feel like an idiot now. I guess a frog that jumps to conclusions really does land in the rocks, huh?

So, what were you referring to this time, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[ミスティック Speed]

Oh, um, I, uh, figured you were referring to you and your boyfriend kissing... I mean, that's what you meant the last time you used that phrase, right? You meant something different this time, didn't you? Gosh, I feel like an idiot now. I guess a frog that jumps to conclusions really does land in the rocks, huh?

So, what were you referring to this time, if you don't mind me asking?

...
You don't think we've kissed already? XD LOL
Anyways, I was referring to me reverting back to my old Brawl main- which is Pit.

 

[U-Throw]

...
You don't think we've kissed already? XD LOL
Anyways, I was referring to me reverting back to my old Brawl main- which is Pit.

I know, I know. I just had a huge dork moment. My apologies.

Anyways, um, cool! What made you drop Dark Pit in favor of Pit? Was it Palutena's Bow, Pit's F-Tilt, the Upperdash Arm, or what?

 

[ミスティック Speed]

I know, I know. I just had a huge dork moment. My apologies.

Anyways, um, cool! What made you drop Dark Pit in favor of Pit? Was it Palutena's Bow, Pit's F-Tilt, the Upperdash Arm, or what?

Nostalgia and light motif. lol

 

[Chiroz]

Lucas's Nair being bigger than his body isn't that impressive when you consider how small Lucas is. It also deals really low
damage even on a full hit. I still find it far easier to land hits with Mewtwo's nair even if it isn't as flexible. Also neither have windboxes, that's something called auto-link angles. Just look at Falco's new nair, if he does it while rising or falling fast enough
it looks weird but that's what it is. Plus, considering all of his other aerials are worse at chaining compared to Brawl it's only fair that nair is upgraded in this respect by comparison.

There's also this nasty quirk with Lucas's dsmash in that blocking one hit makes the other hits null, leaving him far more open for hitting a shield than Mewtwo.

Really, fsmash and dsmash are relatively equal in shield safety (pushback for the first and low endlag for the second). What dsmash is used for is safe reads. It may not be the most optimal punish tool due to it's lower damage and higher startup, but that's what your other two smashes and disable are for (plus spacing for fsmash). And if there is a deadzone up close like you say it's so small compared to fsmash that if you ever run afoul of it you were probably in a situation that called for usmash anyway. Mewtwo points in his dsmash for a reason: he knew without a doubt that you'd land there. Finally I don't care if running up and usmashing is technically stronger, especially now that the gap is smaller. There's no way you can convince me to try this on Pikachu or Kirby on the ground.

Being small is an advantage in this game, it's like saying: "Oh yea Mario's D-Smash having more range than Ganon's is ok because he does a sweep kick while Ganon just kicks forward". But that's not the case, Ganon's has more range, because he's bigger and it's balanced that way. I could also say it makes more sense for a bigger body to have a bigger hitbox.

It deals 8% damage and true combos into anything else including tilts. N-Air plus any tilt deals more damage than Mewtwo's N-Air.

I don't care about the technical name given by the players to something. It's not like that's even the official name.

All of Lucas aerials are easier to land than Mewtwo's. "It's only fair he gets upgraded" yet there are chars who have everything worse than him.




Lucas D-Smash has a ton of shield push though. Also I'd take Lucas Down-Smash over Mewtwo's without thinking about it. For me, Mewtwo's D-Smash has no real use.




If you are going for a safe read Disable comes out faster, stays out for longer (active frames) and has the same endlag as D-Smash. It also hits people in the air (in case your opponent double jumps or just jumps) for safety which D-Smash won't. Disable has much less risk and much more reward, unless your opponent is rolling into you (he will be facing backwards) there is no reason to use D-Smash over Disable. And if your opponent is rolling into you it's just better to U-Smash anyways.



The deadzone in D-Smash is the same as F-Smash IIRC.

Edit: I checked and D-Smash deadzone is smaller you are right, it's basically Mewtwo's body (including his legs). But I also checked F-Smash deadzone and even Pikachu or Kirby can get hit by U-Smash at any point if they are standing inside that deadzone.



If I can't convince you of doing it on Pikachu or Kirby it's because you still are not used to using U-Smash for punishes and reads. U-Smash and Disable are my #1 punish tool. I use F-Smash for pivots or for when my opponent is jumping or rolling. D-Smash I never use except at the ledge, I still see no real situation where it's better than Disable/F-Smash/U-Smash except when going for smash spam in neutral which I don't really advocate.

 

[U-Throw]

I'm pretty sure the point @ meleebrawler was trying to make was that, despite Lucas's N-Air covering his entire body, it doesn't mean much because he's smaller than Mewtwo. Given Mewtwo's size, I'd say his N-Air's range definitely beats Lucas's. Basically, although being small is generally an advantage in Smash Bros., it helps Mewtwo's N-Air cover more area.

It's very misleading to use the term "windbox" to describe auto-link angles. "Windbox" implies that the attack generates a push or pull effect that moves an opponent into a particular position. Of course, this isn't the case with Mewtwo's N-Air. It uses auto-link angles to knock the opponent into position. You wouldn't say that Fox's F-Smash generates a windbox, would you? Of course not! It inflicts knockback. It's the same deal with Mewtwo's and Lucas's N-Airs. They just inflict knockback at a particular angle in order to link the hits together. Hence, the term "auto-link angle."

I mostly agree with you here, but I would say that Mewtwo's N-Air is easier to land than Lucas's. It covers more area, and I'm pretty sure that it's out for longer. Also, Lucas has his own problems. Namely, he doesn't have many safe options. All of his Smashes are unsafe on shield, his U-Smash and D-Smash are both unsafe on whiff, his grab is very unsafe on whiff, his recovery is very telegraphed when not within tether-range, and, if I remember correctly, all of his aerials, barring his N-Air, have noticeable landing lag. Of course, that doesn't mean he's a bad character, but it does explain why Sakurai felt the need to buff his N-Air, along with some other areas.

Why? Going off what you're saying, having Lucas's D-Smash wouldn't help Mewtwo at all. Even with that shield push, Lucas's D-Smash is unsafe on shield. Once your shield is struck, if you drop it immediately, you can run in and punish Lucas without worrying about getting hit. It's very unsafe on shield. If I remember correctly, Mewtwo's D-Smash has little enough ending lag and inflicts enough to shield push to keep him safe. At the very least, it doesn't leave him as exposed as Lucas's does. Barring range, I'm pretty sure Mewtwo's D-Smash outclasses Lucas's in most areas.

I've found that, along with neutral spam (which is an admittedly questionable decision) and attacking recovering opponents (which requires god-like timing), Mewtwo's D-Smash can also be used to punish opponents who try to roll in on you, but misjudge the distance and wind up in front of you. They have to be within a certain range, but, when they are within that zone, it's easily your best punish. Also, certain characters, such as Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Fox, and even Peach, having landing lag animations that put their hurtbox too close to the ground to be hit by Disable. In situations where said characters poorly space aerials that induce such animations, Mewtwo's D-Smash is also your best punish, provided they fall within the aforementioned zone. Granted, D-Smash is a rather situational move, but it does have its uses.

 

[Chiroz]

I'm pretty sure the point @ meleebrawler was trying to make was that, despite Lucas's N-Air covering his entire body, it doesn't mean much because he's smaller than Mewtwo. Given Mewtwo's size, I'd say his N-Air's range definitely beats Lucas's. Basically, although being small is generally an advantage in Smash Bros., it helps Mewtwo's N-Air cover more area.

It's very misleading to use the term "windbox" to describe auto-link angles. "Windbox" implies that the attack generates a push or pull effect that moves an opponent into a particular position. Of course, this isn't the case with Mewtwo's N-Air. It uses auto-link angles to knock the opponent into position. You wouldn't say that Fox's F-Smash generates a windbox, would you? Of course not! It inflicts knockback. It's the same deal with Mewtwo's and Lucas's N-Airs. They just inflict knockback at a particular angle in order to link the hits together. Hence, the term "auto-link angle."

I mostly agree with you here, but I would say that Mewtwo's N-Air is easier to land than Lucas's. It covers more area, and I'm pretty sure that it's out for longer. Also, Lucas has his own problems. Namely, he doesn't have many safe options. All of his Smashes are unsafe on shield, his U-Smash and D-Smash are both unsafe on whiff, his grab is very unsafe on whiff, his recovery is very telegraphed when not within tether-range, and, if I remember correctly, all of his aerials, barring his N-Air, have noticeable landing lag. Of course, that doesn't mean he's a bad character, but it does explain why Sakurai felt the need to buff his N-Air, along with some other areas.

Why? Going off what you're saying, having Lucas's D-Smash wouldn't help Mewtwo at all. Even with that shield push, Lucas's D-Smash is unsafe on shield. Once your shield is struck, if you drop it immediately, you can run in and punish Lucas without worrying about getting hit. It's very unsafe on shield. If I remember correctly, Mewtwo's D-Smash has little enough ending lag and inflicts enough to shield push to keep him safe. At the very least, it doesn't leave him as exposed as Lucas's does. Barring range, I'm pretty sure Mewtwo's D-Smash outclasses Lucas's in most areas.

I've found that, along with neutral spam (which is an admittedly questionable decision) and attacking recovering opponents (which requires god-like timing), Mewtwo's D-Smash can also be used to punish opponents who try to roll in on you, but misjudge the distance and wind up in front of you. They have to be within a certain range, but, when they are within that zone, it's easily your best punish. Also, certain characters, such as Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Fox, and even Peach, having landing lag animations that put their hurtbox too close to the ground to be hit by Disable. In situations where said characters poorly space aerials that induce such animations, Mewtwo's D-Smash is also your best punish, provided they fall within the aforementioned zone. Granted, D-Smash is a rather situational move, but it does have its uses.

Having more range isn't better than having more disjoint in most cases, specially for lingering hitboxes. But the biggest problem is how the move acts. This is a move that goes around your body, having it be smaller than your own hurtbox means every other move will beat it if timed correctly.

Isn't a windbox technically also knockback though? To me a windbox is any knockback that is not directly related to how much damage you are inflicting. I might be using the wrong term but it's makes the point across, it's understandable exactly what I mean when I say it.

Why is it easier to land the exact same attack with someone who has less control over his mobility though?

Also all of Lucas aerials, tilts and jabs come out faster (except B-Air and F-Air) and have less end lag than Mewtwo's (all of them). Why people keep bringing up Smashes as unsafe is beyond any reasoning to me. Sheik's smashes are really crappy and unsafe yet she's still the safest character in the game because smashes are not the attacks you base a character on, it's mostly the aerials and tilts that matter.

You guys should stop using smashes so much and quoting them as safe or unsafe. Smashes are not meant to be safe or used in neutral.

Lucas' D-Smash is incredibly good at catching rolls and recovering opponents. It has an extremely easy time hitting opponents during the 1 frame vulnerability window and it also hits opponent under the ledge who don't have instant Up-B's. It can also catch rolls really easy and it does something NO ATTACK Mewtwo has does which is hit inside him. Mewtwo has a huge blindspot inside himself and the problem is that with the way the game calculates collisions Mewtwo is always ****ed at specific locations like the ledge. The ledge is Mewtwo's biggest enemy because even when the opponent is in front of him, doing an attack will push the opponent inside him and Mewtwo will miss. It also hits behind him so it's easier to space. Lucas' D-Smash also has more knockback if I am not mistaken.



If someone rolls into you U-Smash is your best punish. U-Smash first hitbox is quite good, people need to start using it more for reads. Trust me, JC U-Smash is your best punish in 99% of the situations you can't Disable.

D-Smash is a frame 21 smash though. You also have to go through shield stun and shield drop, which together make up at the very least 10 frames. Pikachu/Kirby most probably will jab you before you have 31 frames to complete a D-Smash. On those ocassions when that happens D-Tilt is the go-to punish. It also leads into either U-Air or F-Air dependig on % which is more than 15% anyways so it's a better punish.

If they are at kill % ANY char that's close to the ground can be U-Tilted -> U-Smashed (which deals more damage and also kills much earlier), U-Tilt also comes out frame 6 instead of frame 21 and ends on frame 30 instead of frame 44.




Again why would you use D-Smash when U-Tilt -> U-Smash outclasses it in every single way.

Here's the breakdown, people are either:

Close and low to the ground: U-Tilt -> U-Smash deals more damage, more knockback, is faster and is safer.

Close and tall (at kill %s): U-Smash deals more damage, more knockback, comes out faster.

Close and tall (at non kill %s): D-Tilt -> Aerial true combo deals more damage, is faster and safer. Puts your opponent in a much worse position.

Far and low to the ground (at non kill %s): D-Tilt -> Aerial true combo deals more damage, is faster and safer. Puts your opponent in a much worse position.

Far and high on the ground (or low to the ground at kill %): F-Smash deals more damage, more knockback, is faster and equally as safe



So the only "good" D-Smash has is that it's safer for reading opponents who are tall and end up really close to you, because at that point it's "safer".

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Found a funny (and somewhat flashy) Mewtwo compilation. Most of this is on for For Glory but there are still some good moments (e.g. 0:58). Lots of teleport ledge cancels.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdBQqWZ_wwM

 

[Chiroz]

Going by my previous post did you guys know if we have a pikmin latched we basically have to take the damage? We have 0 good options to get Pikmins off of us. Our only 2 attacks that can kill Pikmins latched on are N-Air and Multi-Jab. But here's the kicker:

Multi-Jab, as we all know, is completely unsafe and can be grabbed by Olimar.

N-Air? Well it's an electrical hitbox which means that when it hits something it goes into huuuuge amounts of hitlag. Normally this isn't a problem because as we suffer hitlag, so too does our opponent suffer hitstun, but if we do it against a Pikmin, Olimar isn't suffering any hitstun.

All of the sudden our 30 something frame attack becomes a 60-90 frame attack and Olimar has the time of his life to go prepare a sandwich, some tea, go to the bathroom, watch a movie, rate it online and then come back and still punish our N-Air with a Pikmin attached.

Basically if a Pikmin latches on to us, we just have to try not to cry too hard and let him damage us.





Edit: Unless D-Smash actually damages the Pikmins, I hate the move so much, I think I've actually never tried it, lol.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Going by my previous post did you guys know if we have a pikmin latched we basically have to take the damage? We have 0 good options to get Pikmins off of us. Our only 2 attacks that can kill Pikmins latched on are N-Air and Multi-Jab. But here's the kicker:

Multi-Jab, as we all know, is completely unsafe and can be grabbed by Olimar.

N-Air? Well it's an electrical hitbox which means that when it hits something it goes into huuuuge amounts of hitlag. Normally this isn't a problem because as we suffer hitlag, so too does our opponent suffer hitstun, but if we do it against a Pikmin, Olimar isn't suffering any hitstun.

All of the sudden our 30 something frame attack becomes a 60-90 frame attack and Olimar has the time of his life to go prepare a sandwich, some tea, go to the bathroom, come back and still punish our N-Air with a Pikmin attached.

Basically if a Pikmin latches on to us, we just have to try not to cry too hard and let him damage us.

Greninja has the same, blue pikmin are also immune to his Nair