Social Spoon Sword Social

[pikazz]

I agree with U-Throw. However, I included it anyway since I know people would mention it. Here's the video:

http://youtu.be/I2_AIdsqYQw

Let me know what you think. Feel free to spread it around so that people know of Mewtwo's issues.

I got a good laugh, but its sad that some hitboxes are not correct.

showed it to a group and they went nuts since they said "Mewtwo dont need any buffs boo hoo" "hitboxes are corrected" :U

 

[Igzex]

Also looking closely at the grab and the forward air and that's completely your fault that they whiffed.

Mewtwo's little spark thing is not what grabs the opponent. It's there for show. The grab is intended to be halfway inside Mewtwo's arm because she does this little "give me five" animation. Don't get me wrong I too missed the days of Mewtwo fully reaching her arm out for the grab but that whiff still makes sense. The problem with Forward Air is most of the time you are clearly above Mario's head when her hitbox is active and you appear to expect it to linger despite being a quick kill attack. Other times you whiffed because you landed before the hitbox was active.

The tail ones I can agree with though.

 

[U-Throw]

I got a good laugh, but its sad that some hitboxes are not correct.

showed it to a group and they went nuts since they said "Mewtwo dont need any buffs boo hoo" "hitboxes are corrected" :U

What? Why? Do they not use Mewtwo? I mean, it's hard for me to believe that someone would be actively opposed to Mewtwo getting buffs, and it's just ridiculous to say that Mewtwo's hitboxes are accurate as is. The former is a questionable stance, and the latter is simply downright wrong. Why do they think these things?

...Wait a minute. You wreck them all the time as Mewtwo, and, as a result, they think that Mewtwo is OP, don't you?

 

[ThePsychoWolf]

Well met, Mewtwos.
I suck with him, but I find Mewtwo very fun to play.
It is nice to have , , and our boy back together again.

Didn't look to see your glorious fiery mane around these parts. Welcome to the Mewtwo thread, stranger. Lol.

 

[Igzex]

People I played with thought Mewtwo was dumb because they can't quite figure out how to approach me because we're all casual players.

Dread that the developers feel the same.

 

[ThePsychoWolf]

My friends never seem to know how to deal when I go on the offensive with Mewtwo. I guess they think that just because he's big and light he'll be easy to take down, but then I get a few hits in, and they're like, "okay, time out".

 

[pikazz]

What? Why? Do they not use Mewtwo? I mean, it's hard for me to believe that someone would be actively opposed to Mewtwo getting buffs, and it's just ridiculous to say that Mewtwo's hitboxes are accurate as is. The former is a questionable stance, and the latter is simply downright wrong. Why do they think these things?

...Wait a minute. You wreck them all the time as Mewtwo, and, as a result, they think that Mewtwo is OP, don't you?

not really, the one who is saying that seems to dislike mewtwo for some reason.
the only thing he want mewtwo to have is a buff on his weight, but yet he is saying all the good characters in smash has speed, setup, options or all 3 there mewtwo hasnt alot or that stuff at all. if mewtwo need to be "better", he needs more setup, more options and more speed. a weight buff will not fix those 3

yet he is too stubborn to admit that mewtwos teleport is bad, especially with that "wall fling thing"

 

[LRodC]

The video is now the #1 upvoted post on the Smash reddit. I'd say it was a success.

Also, Mewtwo in terms of movement speed is above average. He's the same speed as Wii Fit Trainer, which is pretty good. His air mobility isn't terrible either. It's mostly his frame data which is suspect.

 

[RayNoire]

The people that complain about the people that complain about Mewtwo don't play him competitively.

No one cares if you're beating your friends. When there's money on the line, you need to have reliable tools to compete. Right now, the only reason to use Mewtwo competitively is to take advantage of matchup unfamiliarity, and results around the world seem to be showing that that may not be enough.

The kicker here is that, for the first time, this can change. The dev team has shown that they are watching the trends and, to some degree, listening to the community when deciding what to change in each patch. This means that if we can get exposure for the problems we face, we can actually bring them closer to being fixed.

Ironically, the people that say we should suck it up and improve with what we have haven't done half as much as what lightningrodc just did for the community. Instead they complain about complaining. They're meta-complaining. How could anything be more useless than that?

I would encourage everyone to share the video and spread the word about just how bad this character is. Not because we're pessimistic, but because we're optimistic that with our small amount of influence, we can help save our favorite character from irrelevance, and save ourselves a lot of future misery.

Because guys, Mewtwo is bad. Every time I try to find something to improve his standing, I end up discovering something even worse about him. Now I'm thinking he has a good claim to being the absolute worst character. That doesn't mean I'm going to give up, but I'm not going to deny what is becoming pretty plain to see either.

So...that ended up extremely long, and I'm sorry if it came off too strong, but it had to be said.

 

[Rhus]

I pretty much agree with everything @ RayNoire said. The fact is that Mewtwo is a poor character overall and that bringing attention to his flaws may help in fixing them in the future. I completely agree with this.

On the flip side, I see the most active discussions on this board are usually just what we would change about Mewtwo. While I think addressing his problems is important for sake of patches and hope of alerting the devs, I also can't help but think our efforts are a little bit skewed in the wrong direction sometimes where I think we should talk more about how we can play to improve the character, rather than wait for patches.

 

[RayNoire]

That's fair. I may have been too reticent when it comes to that, mostly because I want my advice to be backed by results and my local is having venue difficulties (so no tournies all summer), and I've only been able to travel to Milwaukee's tournies a few times.

I'll be going to Chicago for E2C17 in two days though. I have no idea how I'll do; WI is such a weak region compared to IL. I'm prepared for the worst but hoping for the best.

 

[LRodC]

One positive is that we know that a lot of Mewtwo's problems are for the most part very fixable by Sakurai's team. The frustrating thing, however, is that buffs and nerfs are never guaranteed, so you can't really put all of your stock into waiting for patches. Wii Fit and Robin for example just got a bunch of great buffs after almost a year, and Samus has been ignored still. I'm hoping Mewtwo gets attention sooner rather than later because he's such an interesting character to use, and I love the glass cannon archetype he's supposed to have. He has so much potential in the right hands to really wreck... Or at least he would if he had well functioning hitboxes. Out of all the characters I main, I whiff the most with him by far, and it's frustrating because I always see stuff with him that could work and be really cool, but doesn't, because of stupid BS. He reminds me a lot of Roy in Melee with his hitboxes.

We have to come together and pretty much admit that yeah, Mewtwo sucks at the moment. It's not trying to insult anyone who uses him or the character, it's just the reality right now. He's not completely hopeless (I don't think anyone is in Smash 4), but he has the makings of a broken, unfinished character that needs a lot of fixes so that he can compete well enough with the rest of the cast, along with Samus. In fact, I personally think that they're both the worst ATM just because of this stuff that significantly holds them back. I was inspired by the Samus video and it was to pretty much try and tell everyone "no, Mewtwo would not be fine with just a weight buff. Check out all of this other crap that he has that needs fixing/buffing." Of course most of you guys all know this stuff and have been talking about it since his release, but it was mostly for people that don't pay attention or don't know things like this.

I'm glad the video is getting the recognition it deserves and hopefully it gets to the right set of eyes along with the Samus video.

In the meantime, let's try and advance his meta as much as possible and try not to be too pessimistic about the shortcomings he has since that won't solve anything. We obviously should acknowledge them, but let's not forget about our strong points too (recovery, shadow ball, disable, reflector, kill throws).

 

[U-Throw]

I beg to differ. Mewtwo isn't "bad" in the sense that he can't put up a fight against the rest of the cast, and he definitely isn't the worst character in the game. Not even close. Now, the thing about Mewtwo being bad is that, in any game, a character is only bad relative to the rest of the cast. In Mewtwo's case, he's not your usual low-tier character. Mewtwo is average in a game where most characters are above-average, and, thus, he comes off as subpar. I've said this before, but Mewtwo is like Bill Nye in a room full of Isaac Newtons. He's totally fine on his own, but compared to his competition, he pales a little bit.

As for Mewtwo being the worst character in the game, that's simply not accurate. Mewtwo is fast, powerful, has a top-notch punish game, possesses a variety of tools, and has a very lengthy, variable recovery. He definitely has some strong suits that keep him out of the bottom-tier. Also, Mewtwo does have quite a few combos, so racking up damage isn't as big a problem for him as some people seem to think.

Furthermore, I disagree about Mewtwo being unable to put up a fight against most of the cast. As a long as a character isn't overly fast, such as Sonic or Captain Falcon, Mewtwo can probably break even with them. Mewtwo is fast enough to keep away from most characters, Shadow Ball allows him to out-zone a majority of the cast, and his top-of-the-line punish game complements his defensive playstyle nicely. Plus, tools like Confusion give Mewtwo a way to cancel out some kinds of approaches, which complements his punish game. Essentially, with a few exceptions, as long as his opponent isn't too fast, Mewtwo probably has a fair chance against them.

Now, what's the problem with that? Most characters in the game have more advantageous match-ups than Mewtwo, which makes them objectively better characters. So, as a result of "above-average" being the norm, average characters like Mewtwo are left behind. It's all relative, you know?

I mean, I'm not saying that Mewtwo is some secret top-tier character, but he's nowhere near the worst character in the game. He has tools that keep him out of the bottom-tier, and he can break even against most of the cast. At this point, I would say that Mewtwo is somewhere in the low-tier. He's not bottom-tier, though, and he's certainly not the worst character in the game.

In regards to buffs, I do think that they would be very nice, but I also agree with @ Rhus 's statement about us Mewtwo mains needing to learn to work with what we've got. We're already discovering some pretty cool things, such as N-Air true combos, and if we keep working at it, I think Mewtwo will probably move up a little bit on the tier list. Ultimately, however, I think that a combination of hard work on our end and buffs from the devs' end is what's necessary to make Mewtwo a viable, tournament-worthy character.

 

[Metros]

Because guys, Mewtwo is bad. Every time I try to find something to improve his standing, I end up discovering something even worse about him. Now I'm thinking he has a good claim to being the absolute worst character. That doesn't mean I'm going to give up, but I'm not going to deny what is becoming pretty plain to see either.

So...that ended up extremely long, and I'm sorry if it came off too strong, but it had to be said.

No wonder I don't come to these boards anymore...

 

[Browny]

The people that complain about the people that complain about Mewtwo don't play him competitively.

No one cares if you're beating your friends. When there's money on the line, you need to have reliable tools to compete. Right now, the only reason to use Mewtwo competitively is to take advantage of matchup unfamiliarity, and results around the world seem to be showing that that may not be enough.

The kicker here is that, for the first time, this can change. The dev team has shown that they are watching the trends and, to some degree, listening to the community when deciding what to change in each patch. This means that if we can get exposure for the problems we face, we can actually bring them closer to being fixed.

Ironically, the people that say we should suck it up and improve with what we have haven't done half as much as what lightningrodc just did for the community. Instead they complain about complaining. They're meta-complaining. How could anything be more useless than that?

I would encourage everyone to share the video and spread the word about just how bad this character is. Not because we're pessimistic, but because we're optimistic that with our small amount of influence, we can help save our favorite character from irrelevance, and save ourselves a lot of future misery.

Because guys, Mewtwo is bad. Every time I try to find something to improve his standing, I end up discovering something even worse about him. Now I'm thinking he has a good claim to being the absolute worst character. That doesn't mean I'm going to give up, but I'm not going to deny what is becoming pretty plain to see either.

So...that ended up extremely long, and I'm sorry if it came off too strong, but it had to be said.

Let me explain a theory about those who succeed and those who don't, Yoda said it best.

Do or do not, there is no try.

You don't try to improve his standing, you either do it or you don't. You don't make excuses for either case, that's not how anything gets done in this world. People use 'try' as a cop out excuse when the real reason is the simply didn't put in enough effort to get it done. Its a harsh reality but its true.

You can't blame a character for holding you back because 'I tried but it didn't work'. Stop complaining, making up excuses and DO SOMETHING about it.

Theres three types of people here;

Those who want to improve his standing by going out and playing the character, ignoring all the pessimism and just doing well like Mew^2
Those who want to improve his standing by being active in the forums, helping out each other, posting guides and matchups and all that stuff.
Those like lightningrodc who do things to promote what needs to be fixed.

You know what they all have in common? They aren't complaining and they aren't pessimistic. They aren't 'trying' to make Mewtwo better, they are DOING things to make him better. You could be like the first one there and be like Mew^2 and continue practicing and getting better but you knock yourself out of that category with all of your pessimism. Seeing as you didnt make any video to highlight Mewtwos issues, you dont fall into the third category either. Promoting his video doesnt count.

Complaining on the forum, saying mewtwo is bottom tier and begging Sakurai for buffs is not 'trying', thats 'not doing anything'. Saying that 'those complaining about complaining are bad' is a god-awful mindset to have, its the attitude of self-defeating professional victims.

People often mistake 'realism' with 'pessimism' when they can't handle the truth, or don't want to put in the effort to deal with situations life handles them. Being realistic about Mewtwos weaknesses is a good thing because it forces you to adapt, to get better and to exploit his strengths. Being pessimistic and complaining constantly is just a waste of effort and life in general.

I think Lightningrodcs video was fine, it was exagerrated and some attacks missed, but I appreciate why he did it because he has good intentions and through his actions, good things can come about. What I can tell you right now is that endless complaining and pessimism, trying to convince everyone on SWF that your character is bottom tier is pretty much only going to achieve damaging your mental health. Literally nothing is gained by it. NOTHING.

No low tier main in the history of smash ever made their character better be bemoaning their weaknesses non stop on smashboards, back then you put in the effort and worked on improving. You can either do that, or don't. There is no middle ground.

 

[meleebrawler]

Let me explain a theory about those who succeed and those who don't, Yoda said it best.

Do or do not, there is no try.

You don't try to improve his standing, you either do it or you don't. You don't make excuses for either case, that's not how anything gets done in this world. People use 'try' as a cop out excuse when the real reason is the simply didn't put in enough effort to get it done. Its a harsh reality but its true.

You can't blame a character for holding you back because 'I tried but it didn't work'. Stop complaining, making up excuses and DO SOMETHING about it.

Theres three types of people here;

Those who want to improve his standing by going out and playing the character, ignoring all the pessimism and just doing well like Mew^2
Those who want to improve his standing by being active in the forums, helping out each other, posting guides and matchups and all that stuff.
Those like lightningrodc who do things to promote what needs to be fixed.

You know what they all have in common? They aren't complaining and they aren't pessimistic. They aren't 'trying' to make Mewtwo better, they are DOING things to make him better. You could be like the first one there and be like Mew^2 and continue practicing and getting better but you knock yourself out of that category with all of your pessimism. Seeing as you didnt make any video to highlight Mewtwos issues, you dont fall into the third category either. Promoting his video doesnt count.

Complaining on the forum, saying mewtwo is bottom tier and begging Sakurai for buffs is not 'trying', thats 'not doing anything'. Saying that 'those complaining about complaining are bad' is a god-awful mindset to have, its the attitude of self-defeating professional victims.

People often mistake 'realism' with 'pessimism' when they can't handle the truth, or don't want to put in the effort to deal with situations life handles them. Being realistic about Mewtwos weaknesses is a good thing because it forces you to adapt, to get better and to exploit his strengths. Being pessimistic and complaining constantly is just a waste of effort and life in general.

I think Lightningrodcs video was fine, it was exagerrated and some attacks missed, but I appreciate why he did it because he has good intentions and through his actions, good things can come about. What I can tell you right now is that endless complaining and pessimism, trying to convince everyone on SWF that your character is bottom tier is pretty much only going to achieve damaging your mental health. Literally nothing is gained by it. NOTHING.

No low tier main in the history of smash ever made their character better be bemoaning their weaknesses non stop on smashboards, back then you put in the effort and worked on improving. You can either do that, or don't. There is no middle ground.

Fight or flight response, my friend. Back in the day fight was the only response since your character wasn't getting artificial upgrades so the only option was to buck up and find things that work. Now some people think with the advent of patches that they can use flight by not using the character they like until they get buffs that others say make them good.

 

[RayNoire]

^There's no need for this passive-aggressive circlejerk. If you want to see a Fight response, I'm right here.

Let me explain a theory about those who succeed and those who don't, Yoda said it best.

Do or do not, there is no try.

You don't try to improve his standing, you either do it or you don't. You don't make excuses for either case, that's not how anything gets done in this world. People use 'try' as a cop out excuse when the real reason is the simply didn't put in enough effort to get it done. Its a harsh reality but its true.

You can't blame a character for holding you back because 'I tried but it didn't work'. Stop complaining, making up excuses and DO SOMETHING about it.

Theres three types of people here;

Those who want to improve his standing by going out and playing the character, ignoring all the pessimism and just doing well like Mew^2
Those who want to improve his standing by being active in the forums, helping out each other, posting guides and matchups and all that stuff.
Those like lightningrodc who do things to promote what needs to be fixed.

You know what they all have in common? They aren't complaining and they aren't pessimistic. They aren't 'trying' to make Mewtwo better, they are DOING things to make him better. You could be like the first one there and be like Mew^2 and continue practicing and getting better but you knock yourself out of that category with all of your pessimism. Seeing as you didnt make any video to highlight Mewtwos issues, you dont fall into the third category either. Promoting his video doesnt count.

Complaining on the forum, saying mewtwo is bottom tier and begging Sakurai for buffs is not 'trying', thats 'not doing anything'. Saying that 'those complaining about complaining are bad' is a god-awful mindset to have, its the attitude of self-defeating professional victims.

People often mistake 'realism' with 'pessimism' when they can't handle the truth, or don't want to put in the effort to deal with situations life handles them. Being realistic about Mewtwos weaknesses is a good thing because it forces you to adapt, to get better and to exploit his strengths. Being pessimistic and complaining constantly is just a waste of effort and life in general.

I think Lightningrodcs video was fine, it was exagerrated and some attacks missed, but I appreciate why he did it because he has good intentions and through his actions, good things can come about. What I can tell you right now is that endless complaining and pessimism, trying to convince everyone on SWF that your character is bottom tier is pretty much only going to achieve damaging your mental health. Literally nothing is gained by it. NOTHING.

No low tier main in the history of smash ever made their character better be bemoaning their weaknesses non stop on smashboards, back then you put in the effort and worked on improving. You can either do that, or don't. There is no middle ground.

I never understand how you think you know what I'm doing.

After Trela and Mew^2, I have the best results of any Mewtwo I'm aware of.

Does that mean absolutely nothing? Probably. It's an incredibly low bar to clear that would be laughable to claim with my paltry results for any other character. (That by itself says something.)

But we can point fingers at who's more useless all day. My point is, why trash the people that could actually be making a difference?

 

[MewtwoX825]

Mewtwo is and always was a character that most people were intimidated or lacked patience to try to use since he's gotten a bad rep in the smash community. While he is better than his Melee counterpart, this video while informative has only made the majority even more careless about him unless the next patch does actually address his issues.

I don't know the whole story, but apparently someone at Nintendo got fired after being on some podcast and was talking negative things about Sakurai, particularly how he treats the developers working on the game and intentionally nerfing Ness in Brawl because he got his ass shamfully whooped by an Nintendo employee who was using Ness in Melee. I only bring this up since it might explain how poorly Mewtwo was made.

 

[MYU2]

I don't know the whole story, but apparently someone at Nintendo got fired after being on some podcast and was talking negative things about Sakurai, particularly how he treats the developers working on the game and intentionally nerfing Ness in Brawl because he got his *** shamfully whooped by an Nintendo employee who was using Ness in Melee. I only bring this up since it might explain how poorly Mewtwo was made.

So Sakurai got rekt by a Mewtwo in melee? No wonder why he got cut in Brawl. But in all seriousness I thought Brawl Ness was better than his Melee counterpart.

Why do I also feel as if the team put more work and passion into the clones (Lucina & Dark Pit) but not into a unique fighter such as Mewtwo?

 

[LRodC]

I beg to differ. Mewtwo isn't "bad" in the sense that he can't put up a fight against the rest of the cast, and he definitely isn't the worst character in the game. Not even close. Now, the thing about Mewtwo being bad is that, in any game, a character is only bad relative to the rest of the cast. In Mewtwo's case, he's not your usual low-tier character. Mewtwo is average in a game where most characters are above-average, and, thus, he comes off as subpar. I've said this before, but Mewtwo is like Bill Nye in a room full of Isaac Newtons. He's totally fine on his own, but compared to his competition, he pales a little bit.

As for Mewtwo being the worst character in the game, that's simply not accurate. Mewtwo is fast, powerful, has a top-notch punish game, possesses a variety of tools, and has a very lengthy, variable recovery. He definitely has some strong suits that keep him out of the bottom-tier. Also, Mewtwo does have quite a few combos, so racking up damage isn't as big a problem for him as some people seem to think.

Furthermore, I disagree about Mewtwo being unable to put up a fight against most of the cast. As a long as a character isn't overly fast, such as Sonic or Captain Falcon, Mewtwo can probably break even with them. Mewtwo is fast enough to keep away from most characters, Shadow Ball allows him to out-zone a majority of the cast, and his top-of-the-line punish game complements his defensive playstyle nicely. Plus, tools like Confusion give Mewtwo a way to cancel out some kinds of approaches, which complements his punish game. Essentially, with a few exceptions, as long as his opponent isn't too fast, Mewtwo probably has a fair chance against them.

Now, what's the problem with that? Most characters in the game have more advantageous match-ups than Mewtwo, which makes them objectively better characters. So, as a result of "above-average" being the norm, average characters like Mewtwo are left behind. It's all relative, you know?

I mean, I'm not saying that Mewtwo is some secret top-tier character, but he's nowhere near the worst character in the game. He has tools that keep him out of the bottom-tier, and he can break even against most of the cast. At this point, I would say that Mewtwo is somewhere in the low-tier. He's not bottom-tier, though, and he's certainly not the worst character in the game.

In regards to buffs, I do think that they would be very nice, but I also agree with @ Rhus 's statement about us Mewtwo mains needing to learn to work with what we've got. We're already discovering some pretty cool things, such as N-Air true combos, and if we keep working at it, I think Mewtwo will probably move up a little bit on the tier list. Ultimately, however, I think that a combination of hard work on our end and buffs from the devs' end is what's necessary to make Mewtwo a viable, tournament-worthy character.

The problem is though, what match ups does Mewtwo really have in his favor? I can't really think of any.

This is my non-customs MU spread. I think he loses really hard to these characters (70-30 or 65-35 their favor):



I think he has an overall disadvantage, but less so than above (60-40 or 55-45 their favor):



Possibly evenish (50-50):



I'm just not sure what he wins. He doesn't do horribly enough that matchups are nigh unplayable, but his MU spread IMO seems pretty bad to me right now. That's why I consider him to be a bottom tier character.

 

[Browny]

The problem is though, what match ups does Mewtwo really have in his favor? I can't really think of any.

This is my non-customs MU spread. I think he loses really hard to these characters (70-30 or 65-35 their favor):



I think he has an overall disadvantage, but less so than above (60-40 or 55-45 their favor):



Possibly evenish (50-50):



I'm just not sure what he wins. He doesn't do horribly enough that matchups are nigh unplayable, but his MU spread IMO seems pretty bad to me right now. That's why I consider him to be a bottom tier character.

Personally I wouldn't say he loses to

None of those characters have reliable answers to Mewtwos defensive game that doesnt involve putting themselves at a massive risk. The rest are too fast, can just trade with him non stop or straight outcamp him

 

[meleebrawler]

The problem is though, what match ups does Mewtwo really have in his favor? I can't really think of any.

This is my non-customs MU spread. I think he loses really hard to these characters (70-30 or 65-35 their favor):



I think he has an overall disadvantage, but less so than above (60-40 or 55-45 their favor):



Possibly evenish (50-50):



I'm just not sure what he wins. He doesn't do horribly enough that matchups are nigh unplayable, but his MU spread IMO seems pretty bad to me right now. That's why I consider him to be a bottom tier character.

How the heck does Mewtwo lose hard to Kirby? He outmaneuvers him and especially outranges him by a significant margin. To say nothing of how Kirby barely dies later than Mewtwo. Sure he can combo Mewtwo fairly hard if he gets in but how easy is that?

Losing to Dr. Mario is also suspect for the same reasons.

Jigglypuff is not hard as long as you don't let her bait you into unsafe stuff. Pac-Man also isn't very difficult if you play patiently since he struggles to land kill moves, and it's not like he severely outguns Mewtwo in neutral.

 

[HakuryuVision]

Mewtwo is and always was a character that most people were intimidated or lacked patience to try to use since he's gotten a bad rep in the smash community. While he is better than his Melee counterpart, this video while informative has only made the majority even more careless about him unless the next patch does actually address his issues.

I don't know the whole story, but apparently someone at Nintendo got fired after being on some podcast and was talking negative things about Sakurai, particularly how he treats the developers working on the game and intentionally nerfing Ness in Brawl because he got his *** shamfully whooped by an Nintendo employee who was using Ness in Melee. I only bring this up since it might explain how poorly Mewtwo was made.

You're talking about Chris Pranger.
http://www.chaingangmedia.com/ptg76/

He probably didn't do it on purpose, but he sort of insults competitive players and people who wish for certain japan-only games to be localized by straw-manning them with a dumb nasal voice, believes Greninja was OP (didn't want to use him online because he didn't want to get judged for playing a top-tier character), reveals way too many details about Nintendo marketing strategies & policies, straw-mans people who blamed the Wii U's name for it's poor sales.

And yeah, he also talks about Sakurai.
“Sakurai’s outlook on the games is very dire. He gets really sad when he finds out how people are reacting and he gets sad whenever there’s a leak, because he really wants to create. And he’s an auteur in the most crazy sense. He’s basically Vincent Van Gogh cutting off his own ear and we’re sitting there going “Frick! Stop doing that!” And he’s like “You don’t get it, guys, my vision!”

I feel sorry for him, but he REALLY shouldn't have openly talked about all these things (many things i haven't even mentioned).
Don't break your NDA's, folks!

I don't think anything he said explains how Mewtwo was made though.

 

[U-Throw]

The problem is though, what match ups does Mewtwo really have in his favor? I can't really think of any.

This is my non-customs MU spread. I think he loses really hard to these characters (70-30 or 65-35 their favor):



I think he has an overall disadvantage, but less so than above (60-40 or 55-45 their favor):



Possibly evenish (50-50):



I'm just not sure what he wins. He doesn't do horribly enough that matchups are nigh unplayable, but his MU spread IMO seems pretty bad to me right now. That's why I consider him to be a bottom tier character.

Personally, I find that Mewtwo has a huge advantage over the heavyweights. He his about as hard as they do, but is much more mobile and has a fantastic projectile, which allows him to out-zone them, rack up damage, and avoid their attacks. Dr. Mario and Robin are also advantageous match-ups for Mewtwo, since both of them are way too slow to keep up. Mewtwo can also reflect their projectiles with Confusion, which hampers them even further.

I also consider Little Mac to be an even match-up, if not in Mewtwo's favor, because Mewtwo's air-game is fantastic, which allows him to rack up damage on Little Mac and B-Throw him off the ledge, basically guaranteeing a KO. Oh, and Mewtwo beats Ryu senseless. Ryu has a difficult time approaching, and Mewtwo outclasses him in almost every area, especially in terms of air-game and recovery. Ryu also has trouble KO'ing Mewtwo, which puts him at a serious disadvantage. Now, if Ryu manages to get close to Mewtwo, then Mewtwo is in deep yogurt, but, given Shadow Ball and Mewtwo's ability to shut down Ryu's approach attempts, that shouldn't happen.

And, in addition to all of that, I concur with everything everyone above me has said. That's just my two cents, anyway.

 

[MewtwoX825]

I also consider Little Mac to be an even match-up, if not in Mewtwo's favor, because Mewtwo's air-game is fantastic, which allows him to rack up damage on Little Mac and B-Throw him off the ledge, basically guaranteeing a KO. Oh, and Mewtwo beats Ryu senseless. Ryu has a difficult time approaching, and Mewtwo outclasses him in almost every area, especially in terms of air-game and recovery. Ryu also has trouble KO'ing Mewtwo, which puts him at a serious disadvantage. Now, if Ryu manages to get close to Mewtwo, then Mewtwo is in deep yogurt, but, given Shadow Ball and Mewtwo's ability to shut down Ryu's approach attempts, that shouldn't happen.

And, in addition to all of that, I concur with everything everyone above me has said. That's just my two cents, anyway.

Of course Mewtwo has no trouble with the legit fighting types...

 

[Rhus]

You're talking about Chris Pranger.
http://www.chaingangmedia.com/ptg76/

I just listened to most of this.

As a Fox main (Don't kill me, Mewtwo virtually a co-main right now), I got really sad to hear Mike's depression over the fan's reaction to his voice in Smash 4. I never minded it, it sounded off but it sounds like his 64 voice anyway.

I think sometimes we as fans hate on things relentlessly without realizing that the makers of it have put in a massive amount of emotion, time and passion into it. It kind of breaks my heart to hear producers/voice actors respond to hate when they legitimately care about it. </3

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I'm just tired of people complaining about Mewtwo not being "Competitively Viable". If you don't want to lose, pick a higher teir character. If you really really really want to play Mewtwo, go for it. You can't blame the character. You picked him. Yes, he's bad but complaining about him being bad is a little greedy to say the least.

 

[U-Throw]

I'm just tired of people complaining about Mewtwo not being "Competitively Viable". If you don't want to lose, pick a higher teir character. If you really really really want to play Mewtwo, go for it. You can't blame the character. You picked him. Yes, he's bad but complaining about him being bad is a little greedy to say the least.

Is it OK if I would like for Mewtwo to be competitively viable, but am content with just having him the way he is now? It's kinda hard to explain, but, to give you gist of it, I'm totally fine with Mewtwo the way he is now, but I'd like it if he were higher-tier. I push for buffs and stuff, but I try not to be whiny and aggressive about it, and I won't be crushed and abandon Mewtwo if they don't happen. I'm only asking because I feel like this is somewhat targeted at me, given the wording of my closing sentence of my first post on this page. Please don't take this the wrong way; I'm not trying to be snarky or anything. I'm just asking if you think my stance on the matter is acceptable.

 

[LRodC]

Personally, I find that Mewtwo has a huge advantage over the heavyweights. He his about as hard as they do, but is much more mobile and has a fantastic projectile, which allows him to out-zone them, rack up damage, and avoid their attacks. Dr. Mario and Robin are also advantageous match-ups for Mewtwo, since both of them are way too slow to keep up. Mewtwo can also reflect their projectiles with Confusion, which hampers them even further.

I also consider Little Mac to be an even match-up, if not in Mewtwo's favor, because Mewtwo's air-game is fantastic, which allows him to rack up damage on Little Mac and B-Throw him off the ledge, basically guaranteeing a KO. Oh, and Mewtwo beats Ryu senseless. Ryu has a difficult time approaching, and Mewtwo outclasses him in almost every area, especially in terms of air-game and recovery. Ryu also has trouble KO'ing Mewtwo, which puts him at a serious disadvantage. Now, if Ryu manages to get close to Mewtwo, then Mewtwo is in deep yogurt, but, given Shadow Ball and Mewtwo's ability to shut down Ryu's approach attempts, that shouldn't happen.

And, in addition to all of that, I concur with everything everyone above me has said. That's just my two cents, anyway.

Interesting observations. Mewtwo-Ryu being an advantage for Mewtwo does make sense if both opponents are skilled. You could definitely make cases for Doc and Robin as well, and I'd say Samus could go either way.

Little Mac however, I think is still disadvantageous. Terrible FG Little Macs may be easy pickings, but good Mac players really know how to abuse the super armor, his frame data, and his insane dash speed. They won't fall for your tricks either. I don't think it's too bad for Mewtwo (55-45 possibly at best) but I don't think it's advantageous for him. He's too fast.

 

[TheSqushiestManatee]

Hey whats the best way to punish rolls with Mewtwo?

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Hey whats the best way to punish rolls with Mewtwo?

Pivot F-tilts are my favorite tool for that.

 

[LRodC]

Pivot forward tilt is a great option. I've been doing that a lot lately and it's surprisingly been pretty effective.

Also, I just got a Disable reflected back at me for the first time, by Lucas' side smash. Can't say I saw that one coming. Luckily for me my percent wasn't that high.

On that note, I think Lucas might be a worse MU for Mewtwo than Ness. Lucas' z-air is harder to deal with than Ness' approaches and Mewtwo hates Lucas' grab combos a lot more. He also hates pursuing Lucas off stage since he has the back-air to spike and the tether to get back to the stage more easily. And on a final note, Lucas' PK Fire clanks with Shadow Ball just like Ness', but Lucas can afford to throw his out more. I don't think it's that bad, but I think Ness might be like 55-45 and Lucas might be 60-40. I don't think Ness is that bad except for back throw killing at ungodly low percentages. That's what mostly puts him ahead of Mewtwo, otherwise it would likely be in his favor, even with PSI magnet which is very easy to predict.

 

[DrRiceBoy]

I like to nair to punish rolls because it lingers.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I don't know why people said that Chris Pranger was talking negatively about Sakurai. I heard the whole thing and there aren't any bad remarks about the way he is, the closest we can get to something "bad" is him being demanding when filming footage for the Smash 4 commercials. The story of how he lost against Ness is told for laughs, and even then it can't be held against him because *surprise, surprise* Ness is now one of the best characters in Smash 4.
And regarding Mr. Pranger getting fired, that is unrelated to what he said about Sakurai. He was fired because he violated his Non-Disclosure Agreement, you simply can't just go around talking about how your company does things in public. It would have happened with any other company in the States.

 

[HakuryuVision]

@ LRodC

Typed in "everything wrong with mewtwo" into Youtube out of curiosity, and found out you actually already made that promised video. : O

Really hope Nintendo somehow takes notice of this.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Heads up! Izaw just released his Art of Falco video

I like playing Falco in this game. Despite his weakened neutral game, he has a tremendous offensive and combo game and you can really style with those anti-air and edge guarding moves.
Just like Meta Knight, he was overlooked for no longer having the same status as in Brawl but I think he is a pretty good character. Buffs have helped him as well.

 

[LRodC]

Yeah, Falco is pretty underrated in this game. It's definitely his worst incarnation (not saying much since he was top/high tier in Melee/Brawl), but he's a good enough character. Sadly, removing his chain grab and nerfing his lasers + down air kind of exposed him as overly reliant on those moves and changed his whole playstyle. Since a lot of his previous techs and overall playstyle were changed from Brawl, a lot of old Falco mains didn't want to put the time into the new Falco and abandoned him.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Interesting observations. Mewtwo-Ryu being an advantage for Mewtwo does make sense if both opponents are skilled. You could definitely make cases for Doc and Robin as well, and I'd say Samus could go either way.

Little Mac however, I think is still disadvantageous. Terrible FG Little Macs may be easy pickings, but good Mac players really know how to abuse the super armor, his frame data, and his insane dash speed. They won't fall for your tricks either. I don't think it's too bad for Mewtwo (55-45 possibly at best) but I don't think it's advantageous for him. He's too fast.

Gonna be honest. I think calling ANY of Ryus matches when hes not even 3 months old in a new game is absolute foolishness not to mention arrogant.

But wtf do I know.

 

[Gui JP]

Gonna be honest. I think calling ANY of Ryus matches when hes not even 3 months old in a new game is absolute foolishness not to mention arrogant.

But wtf do I know.

On the 3DS, I frequently mess up his bair with I'd-Like-Some-Pound-Cake/Tatsu.

Would like to get much better at him tho fo sho

 

[Emblem Lord]

You ten times the man I am for being brave enough to attempt to master him on 3DS with that circle pad nonsense.