Social Spoon Sword Social

[Igzex]

This Abadango person is completely wrong about Mewtwo in that he keeps referring to Mewtwo as a "he". What is wrong with these top players?! D:

 

[LRodC]

Lmfao I got my post deleted and threatened with a forum ban from the tier list thread for telling people to stop blindly following zero and coming up with excuses as to why Abadango thinks differently to them (which is usually nonsense like 'the japanese meta isnt as serious' and 'but zero said this, the japanese are wrong').

Its so worth it though, sick of that thread.

Too many people treat everything Zero says like the word of their god. This is the guy who called Lucario broken overpowered because HE LOST A STOCK TO A LUCARIO, ONCE.

Whatever, everyone who talks trash about Mewtwo over there is a pot filler anyway.

I feel like I need to chime in on this.

I am absolutely sick and tired of people completely idolizing ZeRo and blindly following what he says as fact. Let me get this out of the way first: ZeRo is an excellent player, and is probably one of the best, if not the best player Smash 4 has right now. His accomplishments should be respected and his opinions of the game should also be respected. Note, however, that I said respected, not blindly followed.

Just because ZeRo, or anyone else for that matter, says something, does not necessarily mean that it should immediately be what other Smash fans think. He is a human being just like all of us, and his word should not be treated as the gospel just because of his winning record. The people that do this are in my mind, complete sheep that cannot form an opinion of their own. They say Sheik is the best character in the game not because of their own opinions or reasoning, but because of what ZeRo said and the reasons he gave. People are against custom moves right now more than ever not because of any reasoning they came up with themselves, but because ZeRo said he disliked them. Hell, I was at a tournament last month, and the TO actually banned custom moves not for logistical reasons, but because "ZeRo said this, ZeRo said that". There's a difference between agreement and blindly following, and it's this mindset that will keep the Smash community back more than anything.

Form your own opinion and don't just be a parrot. Respect opinions of people that have earned accolades, but do not treat them as the only valid opinion. There are plenty of great minds in the community that offer their own input, and their opinions should be respected just as much as ZeRo or anyone else with a great tournament record or presence. However, you have every right to disagree with them as well, and you should not be pressured to do so.

 

[Browny]

Honestly I've never felt Mewtwo was that bad.

I play a whole lot of characters and have in all smash, I usually cycle through every single one except for a few I just dont like using like IC's/Villager/Rosalina for random reasons. At no time has Mewtwo felt low tier to me.

I get that its highly likely the people I play against are all bad compared to Americans, but thats not the point. Its compared to a whole raft of characters where it seems like every matchup is difficult. Mewtwo to me always has a strong comeback factor along with great potential to build up damage super fast and SAFELY if you get the first KO. People go on about 'well any character can make a comeback with a few good reads' but that simply isnt true if your character doesnt have multiple types of hard punishes. Mewtwo is loaded with hard punishing moves to punish literally EVERYTHING.

A lot of mid-low tier characters have really poor punishes in general, most dont have a single combo that does more than one shadowball and wishes they could kill at like 70% from a shield-disable-charge usmash. And of course the part where Mewtwos punishes are quite safe. Someone like Ryu might have a god tier punish in upb oos, but thats literally all he has and if you mess up, youre in trouble.

Even if I am down 0 - 100% in a last stock match, I am very confident I can win as Mewtwo because there is no perfect playstyle the enemy can adapt which is immune to Mewtwos array of hard punishes. I only need to make a few good reads and thats enough to even things out. This is distinctly unlike many other mid and low tier characters, where my only chance to win is by putting myself at a great risk trying to punish the opponent using 1-2 unsafe punishes which become entirely predictable.

This is what the general swf/reddit population cant see. All they see are surface attributes like weight/ko power/combos/speed. No one gives nearly enough credit to safety and having a variety of options.

Having a lot of options makes you unpredictable and being unpredictable while being safe is what makes Sonic so good. Mewtwo has this combiation too. Not in movement, but in walling out the enemy and punishes. Marth might wall out the opponent with fair/dtilt/jab while mewtwo can do it with shadowball/dtilt/bair/confusion/jab. Having that mix of projectile/poke/aerial/command grab/reflector/lingering disjoint answers every single option any character in the game can use against him.

Theres no such thing as a top tier character that isnt loaded with options, and Mewtwo has this in the bag. Sure his size and weight drag him down a bunch, but he has WAY more options than most characters in this game when it comes to punishing hard and extending a lead, which is kind of the 2 things you need to do to win any given match.

 

[The Goldenbrawler]

And here we have Abadango's tier list

http://abadango.com/ssb4-tier-list-ver-1-10/

"He has many moves like d-tilt, DA, and Shadow Ball that he can use in the neutral. But, his large hurtbox and light weight make his easy to kill. He pretty much doesn't lose to low tiers, but many matchups against high tiers are extremely tough. However, his ability to win off of a hard read or something is high. (In Japanese, it's described as One-Chance ability)"

Looks good to me

Don't you just love it when players are optimistic about Mewtwo? Or should I say realistic? Mr 4th place at Evo 2015 doesn't make up **** online to rustle peoples jimmies, he knows what hes talking about.

This I can agree with! (Bar Roy not being near the top for how broken he can be, swapping Villager and Yoshi, and G&W being lower because honestly, he doesn't seem that great at all...)

 

[---]

Not that I disagree with not blindly following someone elses opinion, you still need to be careful on how you present your opinion. If you have an issue/disagreement with a mod you're welcome to take it to Forum Support.

And here we have Abadango's tier list

http://abadango.com/ssb4-tier-list-ver-1-10/

"He has many moves like d-tilt, DA, and Shadow Ball that he can use in the neutral. But, his large hurtbox and light weight make his easy to kill. He pretty much doesn't lose to low tiers, but many matchups against high tiers are extremely tough. However, his ability to win off of a hard read or something is high. (In Japanese, it's described as One-Chance ability)"

Looks good to me

Don't you just love it when players are optimistic about Mewtwo? Or should I say realistic? Mr 4th place at Evo 2015 doesn't make up **** online to rustle peoples jimmies, he knows what hes talking about.

I think Mewtwo is C at best, but it's nice to see some optimism even if it's in the Japanese meta game. I still stand by my statement that Mewtwo is a character who's solid conceptually and a reasonable buff(s) would go a long way.

Duck Hunt, G&W (though I think he's slept on a bit), ROB, and Tink being that high doesn't surprise me for a JP Tier List. Ness seems kind of low, and Lucario a little high. No idea about Peach. Mega Man seems right, please give us some slight non-LS buffs.

 

[cstonic]

I agree completely with @ --- with Mewtwo being C at best. I feel like anything else is far too high.

 

[Browny]

Not that I disagree with not blindly following someone elses opinion, you still need to be careful on how you present your opinion. If you have an issue/disagreement with a mod you're welcome to take it to Forum Support.

It's just nauseating over there and how people treat Mewtwo and the Japanese scene at large.

Like seriously, Mewtwo and Ryu both have pretty comparable success. No one wins tournaments with them, but theres a few good mains ranked in places with them. They're rare characters. Abadango comes along and puts Ryu high tier
'yeah seems about right'
And Mewtwo mid tier
'omg the japanese are so backwards, do they even meta. Their stagelist is horrid and they dont even play for money lol, take it with a grain of salt'

The bias against Japan is... really strong. Like from an outsider it is really obvious to me. As soon as something conflicts with an American idea (or should I say, Chilean idea) its instantly wrong and they mock the Japanese.

Mewtwo was just a scapegoat in the general bashing of Japan over there. It's all just one big circlejerk of mocking their stagelist, playstyle, prizes and lackluster performance at Evo outside of Abadango. Yeah I came off strong but I don't care, some people need to realise how it looks when you denigrate an entire nation because one persons thinks something different than they do. They can criticise Abadango all they want, I'm sure he doesnt care when his Evo Medal shuts all the haters up.

 

[cstonic]

It's just nauseating over there and how people treat Mewtwo and the Japanese scene at large.

Like seriously, Mewtwo and Ryu both have pretty comparable success. No one wins tournaments with them, but theres a few good mains ranked in places with them. They're rare characters. Abadango comes along and puts Ryu high tier
'yeah seems about right'
And Mewtwo mid tier
'omg the japanese are so backwards, do they even meta. Their stagelist is horrid and they dont even play for money lol, take it with a grain of salt'

The bias against Japan is... really strong. Like from an outsider it is really obvious to me. As soon as something conflicts with an American idea (or should I say, Chilean idea) its instantly wrong and they mock the Japanese.

Mewtwo was just a scapegoat in the general bashing of Japan over there. It's all just one big circlejerk of mocking their stagelist, playstyle, prizes and lackluster performance at Evo outside of Abadango. Yeah I came off strong but I don't care, some people need to realise how it looks when you denigrate an entire nation because one persons thinks something different than they do. They can criticise Abadango all they want, I'm sure he doesnt care when his Evo Medal shuts all the haters up.

Stagelist and ruleset affect the tiers in many ways. If you're going to be playing on Omegas 99% of the time then ofc Sonic will be top 2. His weaker stages arent even used in the ruleset. This isn't even just a Sonic thing either, it can be applied to a ton of the placements. Like DH.

Its pretty much a different game they're playing.

 

[Browny]

Its just mad confirmation bias all day long

If the Japanese come to the same conclusion USA does:
"Good to know they agree with us on that, we know we were right"

Japan comes to a different conclusion:
"Lets invent a million and one reasons as to why they are wrong and why we should ignore literally all of their opinions"

The Japanese have always had a ludicrously safe playstyle and favour characters that hit-and-run or just camp you to hell with safe moves, they never seem to be fond of aggro characters that have to push hard for combos. Maybe this is why they put Sonic at #2? Or maybe the Japenese REALLY like Sonic, like how americans love captain falcon?

It is clear as day there is a strong anti-FE bias over in Japan, yet many Amercians seem to refuse to acknowledge that there is strong character biases present there too. Pacman and Mewtwo are far and away the biggest examples.

There are all sorts of reasons as to why they put Sonic at #2 and way too many people are quick to declare the reason for this is their stagelist and then conclude that their 'meta' is not as serious and to ignore their opinions. Meanwhile there are all sorts of reasons as to why Americans put Luigi very high, no one questions this though. Could it be because the american 'meta' is not as serious when it comes to playing optimally and walling out characters who really need to be walled out instead of getting wrecked by his grabs?

It's way too easy to turn every single anti-Japan argument right back into an equally strong anti-American argument by citing examples where they disagree and using their own logic against them.

Personally I don't think Sonic is #2, but that doesnt make them 'playing a different game'. Do you think Japanese say that Americans are 'playing a different game' when people rate Pikachu as #2?

 

[cstonic]

Its just mad confirmation bias all day long

If the Japanese come to the same conclusion USA does:
"Good to know they agree with us on that, we know we were right"

Japan comes to a different conclusion:
"Lets invent a million and one reasons as to why they are wrong and why we should ignore literally all of their opinions"

The Japanese have always had a ludicrously safe playstyle and favour characters that hit-and-run or just camp you to hell with safe moves, they never seem to be fond of aggro characters that have to push hard for combos. Maybe this is why they put Sonic at #2? Or maybe the Japenese REALLY like Sonic, like how americans love captain falcon?

It is clear as day there is a strong anti-FE bias over in Japan, yet many Amercians seem to refuse to acknowledge that there is strong character biases present there too. Pacman and Mewtwo are far and away the biggest examples.

There are all sorts of reasons as to why they put Sonic at #2 and way too many people are quick to declare the reason for this is their stagelist and then conclude that their 'meta' is not as serious and to ignore their opinions. Meanwhile there are all sorts of reasons as to why Americans put Luigi very high, no one questions this though. Could it be because the american 'meta' is not as serious when it comes to playing optimally and walling out characters who really need to be walled out instead of getting wrecked by his grabs?

It's way too easy to turn every single anti-Japan argument right back into an equally strong anti-American argument by citing examples where they disagree and using their own logic against them.

Personally I don't think Sonic is #2, but that doesnt make them 'playing a different game'. Do you think Japanese say that Americans are 'playing a different game' when people rate Pikachu as #2?

Oh no, the stage list is definitely not the ONLY reasoning behind the tiers. There's also the players such as Komorikiri, who place high all the time. This could be compared to ESAM and Pikachu, since he's the main one pushing Pika's meta. (Ranai and Villager is another example of this)

"Personally I don't think Sonic is #2, but that doesnt make them 'playing a different game'. Do you think Japanese say that Americans are 'playing a different game' when people rate Pikachu as #2?"
It can honestly be considered. We have different stages, different players representing characters, and different playstyles.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Does anyone know where I can find this image of the roster which has all of the characters named as "something Marth"? I saw a user around here one time having it but I don't remember who that was. It had stuff like Link and T. Link as "Green Marth" and "Baby Marth" respectively.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hey how bout you guys stop giving a **** about the tiers and actually play the ****ing game.

If you play Mewtwo then play him.

hes not top tier and you know this. You guys arent stupid. So just play the ****ing game and decide for yourself if you want to play mewtwo or not. But dont whine about how good he isnt when you do decided to play him.

You know what you are signing up for.

And lol@ getting in a huff over one mans opinion.

Calm the **** down guys.

 

[LRodC]

In the end, it's your opinion that matters, no one else's. Use who you want and don't put too much stock into any tier list or anyone else's opinion.

Also --- , I'm a Mega Man user too. I know this is a Mewtwo social, but what non LS buffs would you like to see for him? Personally, I'd like for him to have less lag after his side smash, a better multi hit for his down smash after the initial hit, some landing lag reductions, and a bit more damage (1-1.5% more) or less lag on his buster shots. Other than those, I think he's mostly fine and balanced.

 

[Igzex]

A voice would be nice. Preferably the Mega Man 8 and X4 voice.

"Power Shot!"
"Take thet!"
"Time to get serious."
"Why must I fight you? We are not enemies!"

 

[---]

In the end, it's your opinion that matters, no one else's. Use who you want and don't put too much stock into any tier list or anyone else's opinion.

Also --- , I'm a Mega Man user too. I know this is a Mewtwo social, but what non LS buffs would you like to see for him? Personally, I'd like for him to have less lag after his side smash, a better multi hit for his down smash after the initial hit, some landing lag reductions, and a bit more damage (1-1.5% more) or less lag on his buster shots. Other than those, I think he's mostly fine and balanced.

Making the Charge Shot safer would be the thing I most want to see. Perfect Shielding and Reflectors make it heavily match up specific and only good for punishing lag on moves, landings, and the occasional missed roll/ledge get up, and even then it's not that great for killing.

Increased damage on Throws and Flame Sword. A safer Slide attack. Something with Flame Blast to make it more viable (safer/multi-hit).

He's pretty much fine when it comes to balancing, but I would like to see better tournament results as really only NinjaLink (last time I checked) has been getting decent results. I think I read somewhere that Zucco dropped him. No one got far with him at EVO either despite access to Danger Wrap and Plant Barrier (though that's still better than Mewtwo mains...).

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

A voice would be nice. Preferably the Mega Man 8 and X4 voice.

"Power Shot!"
"Take thet!"
"Time to get serious."
"Why must I fight you? We are not enemies!"

No...just, no....

 

[Gallant Blade]

I find Dr. Mario underwhelming, to be honest. More height on Dr. Tornado and maybe more priority on aerials would be nice.

one: were all holding out hope for k. rool. i mean... i was one of the people still holding out for mewtwo even after the 3ds release and before the 50 fact special.if mewtwo made it in despite the odds against it... why not k. rool?
and 2: nahh. gallade are cool. owo

It is good to know that others are hopeful for their character. I send them my good luck to get their wish, just like how we got ours. Also, I am flattered.

A voice would be nice. Preferably the Mega Man 8 and X4 voice.

"Power Shot!"
"Take thet!"
"Time to get serious."
"Why must I fight you? We are not enemies!"

Let us not forget his star KO: WHAT AM I FIGHTING FOR?!?!?

 

[Igzex]

But that was Zero that said that

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I find Dr. Mario underwhelming, to be honest. More height on Dr. Tornado and maybe more priority on aerials would be nice.

Use the custom that turns his entire body in a custom, it's in a video called 'top 10 customs'



No, it wasn't ZeRo

 

[LRodC]

Yeah, Doc's Tornado is actually a nice move. I think what they should do instead is increase the distance his SJP covers. It doesn't have to be as high as Mario's, but it shouldn't be outright terrible in terms of distance.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Yeah, Doc's Tornado is actually a nice move. I think what they should do instead is increase the distance his SJP covers. It doesn't have to be as high as Mario's, but it shouldn't be outright terrible in terms of distance.

A friend of mine says it's best to use the Rocket Punch thing for Doc because if you're going for Doc, you're already going for power

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Use the custom that turns his entire body in a custom, it's in a video called 'top 10 customs'



No, it wasn't ZeRo

Lol, no. It's limited compared to the default one. It only goes straight up, has no hitboxes until the end, and is even more punishable than the regular one. Not a bad move but it's a sidegrade at best.

Doc's priority isn't an issue. SJP should go higher, and doc doesn't need a ton of buffs.

A friend of mine says it's best to use the Rocket Punch thing for Doc because if you're going for Doc, you're already going for power

Do you mean Ol' One Two? That move sucks. Mario's version sucks too, but it sucks less than OOT.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Lol, no. It's limited compared to the default one. It only goes straight up, has no hitboxes until the end, and is even more punishable than the regular one. Not a bad move but it's a sidegrade at best.

Doc's priority isn't an issue. SJP should go higher, and doc doesn't need a ton of buffs.



Do you mean Ol' One Two? That move sucks. Mario's version sucks too, but it sucks less than OOT.

Stupid early kills and disjointed says otherwise

I was quoting a friend of mine, her argument was that while recovery is worse, Doc's UpB, a move that's pretty strong to begin with, gets stronger

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Stupid early kills and disjointed says otherwise

I was quoting a friend of mine, her argument was that while recovery is worse, Doc's UpB, a move that's pretty strong to begin with, gets stronger

And your point is? Soaring Tornado has raw power and vertical distance but it trades so much of default's strengths. Still less versatile than the default down b, which can edgeguard, punish rolls and spot dodges, stall in the air, recover horizontally, pressure shields, and beat out other attacks. Oh, and it can be comboed into.

Default SJP's selling points are:
Speed. 3 frame KO move so it can be used to break out of strings, punish air dodges and punish OOS.
Its' ability to be reversed on shield and on hit. This makes it less punishable than most up-bs. It also makes it useful for edge guarding, since you can punish people and return safely to the ledge.
Sweetspot hitbox. This is huge.

OOT has a lot of downsides which your friend ignored or didn't know about. It's slower, goes a shorter distance, has inconsistencies with the first hit comboing into the second, and cannot be reversed. The only good thing about this move is that it can be comboed into off a down throw. Still a garbage move overall.

 

[cstonic]

I think less endlag on Tornado would be extremely cool. Doc's recovery would be so much better imo

 

[LRodC]

And your point is? Soaring Tornado has raw power and vertical height but it trades so much of default's strengths. Still less versatile than the default down b, which can edgeguard, punish rolls and spot dodges, stall in the air, recover horizontally, pressure shields, and beat out other attacks. Oh, and it can be comboed into.

Default SJP's selling points are:
Speed. 3 frame KO move so it can be used to break out of strings, punish air dodges and punish OOS.
Its' ability to be reversed on shield and on hit. This makes it less punishable than most up-bs. It also makes it useful for edge guarding, since you can punish people and return safely to the ledge.
Sweetspot hitbox. This is huge.

OOT has a lot of downsides which your friend ignored or didn't know about. It's slower, goes a shorter distance, has inconsistencies with the first hit comboing into the second, and cannot be reversed. The only good thing about this move is that it can be comboed into off a down throw. Still a garbage move overall.

I don't use Doc much myself, but from what I used of Ol' One Two, it seems like a sickeningly powerful OoS option and down throw follow up that sometimes has trouble connecting properly. I wouldn't go as far to call it bad, but it is a flawed move that probably isn't as good as SJP overall.

 

[Igzex]

I love that Mewtwo can wall jump simply for how it allows her to safely and easily cross under the battlefield when you're just showing off.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

I don't use Doc much myself, but from what I used of Ol' One Two, it seems like a sickeningly powerful OoS option and down throw follow up that sometimes has trouble connecting properly. I wouldn't go as far to call it bad, but it is a flawed move that probably isn't as good as SJP overall.

No probably. It isn't. SJP is a versatile move, as an OOS option and more. OOT has little utility outside of its' use as a combo finisher off of Down Throw and as an OOS option, and it is not good as either of those things. This applies to Mario's Explosive Jump Punch (EJP) as well, but that move is slightly less bad and gives Mario a stronger, but less consistent OOS option and Down Throw finisher.

 

[---]

It's a shame TPC won't let the Pokemon use sound effects from GRBY.

 

[Yoshisaurus Rex]

It's a shame TPC won't let the Pokemon use sound effects from GRBY.

That's true but I'm still very thankful we got the costumes and Mewtwo looks great! Also, are the costumes only usable in the 8-bit theme?

 

[Schnee117]

That's true but I'm still very thankful we got the costumes and Mewtwo looks great! Also, are the costumes only usable in the 8-bit theme?

Costumes are only in 8-bit.

 

[Igzex]

Oh heck yeah! With this, our fair lady is playable in a fighting game, RPGs, an action game, a puzzle game, a rhythm game, and now a platform game. Now we just need her to be playable in a First Person Shooter and in a Survival Horror game (Unless you count trying to go back to red/blue/yellow as a survival horror experience)

 

[MewtwoX825]

It's a shame TPC won't let the Pokemon use sound effects from GRBY.

I guess I have a reason to get Mario Maker and Mewtwo amiibo now...

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The Pokemon Company will announce something today at the World Championship. I'm certain it's either Zygarde's form or Pokken in Europe and US

 

[MainJPW]

or Pokken in Europe and US

...And you would be correct.

 

[MewtwoX825]

Xbox One getting Killer Instinct season 3

PS4 getting Street Fighter V

Now Wii U is entering the fighting game season with this.

Oh what's this a new char..... SCREW YOU GAMEFREAK!!!!

 

[Cutie Gwen]

...And you would be correct.

The RNG Goddess told me I'd get great things by giving her money. She was right!

Xbox One getting Killer Instinct season 3

PS4 getting Street Fighter V

Now Wii U is entering the fighting game season with this.

Oh what's this a new char..... SCREW YOU GAMEFREAK!!!!

Considering how the Tekken series goes, I highly doubt Pikachu Libre will be the only console exclusive

 

[pikazz]

the best part about the pokken for Wii U is its world wide <3

 

[MewtwoX825]

The RNG Goddess told me I'd get great things by giving her money. She was right!

Considering how the Tekken series goes, I highly doubt Pikachu Libre will be the only console exclusive

I know, but with this and Pkiachu being the only high teir pokemon in smash (again), it has officialy become my most hated pokemon. But yea who cares about Raichu and Hawlucha right?

Also theres a tradmark rumor going around that Pokken will have amiibo functionality, so I guess theres a good chance of Mewtwo, Greninja, and Jiggs being in.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I know, but with this and Pkiachu being the only high teir pokemon in smash (again), it has officialy become my most hated pokemon. But yea who cares about Raichu and Hawlucha right?

Also theres a tradmark rumor going around that Pokken will have amiibo functionality, so I guess theres a good chance of Mewtwo, Greninja, and Jiggs being in.

Smash isn't made with tiers in mini, not to mention balance patches exist. Tekken has multiple wrestlers, so why does 1 Pikachu wrestler mean no Hawlucha?

Hyrule Warriors didn't have TPDorf despite his amiibo