Social Spoon Sword Social

[Cutie Gwen]

I agree with you!... Almost.
I personally like Ganondorf the most in this state, and I think he should stay this way, if not because Ganon doesn't need an original moveset, then because of what it does to Falcon.

You see, by having a clone of anybody, that builds a connection between those two characters that wouldn't have existed otherwise. Had Ganondorf never been a clone of Falcon, then there would have never been heated Falcon/Ganon debates, because it wouldn't make any sense to compare different characters like they're the same. Clones fill in that gap. Clones are what makes Smash Bros, Smash Brothers, and not "Smash people-from-different-universes". By Ganon being a Falcon clone, not only does it help to connect the Zelda/F-Zero series together, but it also gives Falcon players an alternate version of their character to play, and vise versa

Having clones is the equivalent to playing customs.
The only difference is that you can use them online.

And when you honestly stop to think about it, characters like Dr.Mario wouldn't even make sense if they weren't clones, because they are literally the same person, that, and Roy honestly didn't need to be decloned either, because what people don't realize about clones is that they give you another character to fall back on if your initial main isn't working. So, if, say, Mario, isn't strong enough to beat a good Bowser, and speed's not the issue, then that player can simply switch the Doc and seize victory.

Some of you may think that clones take away depth from the series, but I think they're the ones that maintain it.

If Ganon got changed, that would do more harm than good, and not the Black Shadow thing again.

Holy ****. The first sentences sound like FalconDorf is your OTP

I can mostly agree with this. It's good to see somebody else that appreciates clones!

However, I fail to see how decloning Ganondorf in order make him self-accurate would be harmful in any way. Since Black Shadow would, for all intents and purposes, replace him, you've still got everything there, but more people are happy: F-Zero fans are happy because they finally get their second rep, Ganondorf fans are happy because he finally gets a self-accurate moveset, and fans of Ganondorf's current state are happy because Black Shadow fills his role. I just don't see how any harm is being done. Perhaps I'm missing something, though.

You ARE missing something. Miyamoto will cry because he'd have to give in and make a new F-Zero.
My choice: Either declone, or have Ganon as a separate character who's accurate

 

[ZephyrZ]

I just came back from a vacation, so I'm not going to try to catch up. Instead, I'm just going to bring back an old topic from around the time I disappeared.

Throughout Sacred Stones it is implied that they have sexual and intimate relations. In Awakening, it is implied that Eirika was in fact married to Ephraim after the events of Sacred Stones. However, these are all implications. Nothing is fact here. It's like the Ike x Soren deal.

In what way was it implied?
I didn't get the Ephraim/Eirika DLC.

In addition to them being the king and queen of Renais, their legendary weapons, Sieglinde and Siegmund, is named after two siblings who loved each other in a legend. It's never outright stated that they are in a relationship, but I'd like to think they had something going on. Of course though, it may not be true. Just wanted to point this out.

You know...you could have them marry other characters, like Tana and Innes, and it'd still call those two king and queen.

 

[Deleted member]

I can mostly agree with this. It's good to see somebody else that appreciates clones!

However, I fail to see how decloning Ganondorf in order make him self-accurate would be harmful in any way. Since Black Shadow would, for all intents and purposes, replace him, you've still got everything there, but more people are happy: F-Zero fans are happy because they finally get their second rep, Ganondorf fans are happy because he finally gets a self-accurate moveset, and fans of Ganondorf's current state are happy because Black Shadow fills his role. I just don't see how any harm is being done. Perhaps I'm missing something, though.

It would do more harm because

1. It would destroy most of the unity in the roster.
2. Any unique Ganondorf that wouldn't wind up being OP, would simply be underpowered.
3. Ganon has too much depth and unique qualities to be completely unique, because even if he got decloned, it would not be what you guys think it would be, hence Mewtwo, who has amazing psychic power, physical power, and speed, got reduced to a laggy character, complete with moves that only do about Mario-level damage (if sweetspotted).
4. Black Shadow could get a unique moveset, but by Ganonfying him, he'd lose that oppertunity.

 

[U-Throw]

It would do more harm because

1. It would destroy most of the unity in the roster.
2. Any unique Ganondorf that wouldn't wind up being OP, would simply be underpowered.
3. Ganon has too much depth and unique qualities to be completely unique, because even if he got decloned, it would not be what you guys think it would be, hence Mewtwo, who has amazing psychic power, physical power, and speed, got reduced to a laggy character, complete with moves that only do about Mario-level damage (if sweetspotted).
4. Black Shadow could get a unique moveset, but by Ganonfying him, he'd lose that oppertunity.

1. How? You've still got Black Shadow as a clone. Besides, Ganondorf and Captain Falcon aren't most of the roster. This doesn't make any sense to me.

2. This also doesn't make any sense to me. Any character can be balanced. In Ganondorf/Black Shadow's case, you just needs to find the right mix of speed of power. Do that, and you're golden.

3. Once again, this doesn't make sense to me. Any character can be made unique. Look at Mario. He's totally accurate. Nobody ever complains about him. Also, surely a Ganondorf that tries to be accurate and falls short would be better than a Ganondorf that doesn't really try to.

4. I thought clones were a good thing... Besides, this way, a character that doesn't really make sense as a Captain Falcon semi-clone gets a moveset that makes sense for him, while a character that can believably be a Falcon semi-clone gets a moveset that reflects himself as such.

 

[Schnee117]

Once again people you have to sacrifice accuracy for balance lest you want the game to suck.

As long as Ganondorf exhibits great power and great responsibility he's fine.

 

[Deleted member]

1. How? You've still got Black Shadow as a clone. Besides, Ganondorf and Captain Falcon aren't most of the roster. This doesn't make any sense to me.

2. This also doesn't make any sense to me. Any character can be balanced. In Ganondorf/Black Shadow's case, you just needs to find the right mix of speed of power. Do that, and you're golden.

3. Once again, this doesn't make sense to me. Any character can be made unique. Look at Mario. He's totally accurate. Nobody ever complains about him. Also, surely a Ganondorf that tries to be accurate and falls short would be better than a Ganondorf that doesn't really try to.

4. I thought clones were a good thing... Besides, this way, a character that doesn't really make sense as a Captain Falcon semi-clone gets a moveset that makes sense for him, while a character that can believably be a Falcon semi-clone gets a moveset that reflects himself as such.

Because, what are two F-Zero characters (who are already unified under that series) doing to unify the entire roster? And it's not that they are most of the roster, it's that they are the greatest example of Smash's unity.

I am saying that with all of Ganon's powers, he would either completely dominate the cast, or be weakened to the point where he wouldn't be viable

That example doesn't work, as all Mario does is punch blocks, shoot fireballs, jump on people, and collect coins. Anyone can make a moveset out of that. But not everybody can make a moveset fitting a character with extraordinary magical powers, the ability to destroy practically everything, the force of a thousand armies, a menacing sword, and great agility.
There's a huge difference there.

They are good, but only when they're done right. Making clones follow standard, believable rules would defeat the whole purpose. It's not about what makes sense relative to the characters, it's about what's best for the game as a whole.

 

[U-Throw]

Because, what are two F-Zero characters (who are already unified under that series) doing to unify the entire roster? And it's not that they are most of the roster, it's that they are the greatest example of Smash's unity.

I am saying that with all of Ganon's powers, he would either completely dominate the cast, or be weakened to the point where he wouldn't be viable

That example doesn't work, as all Mario does is punch blocks, shoot fireballs, jump on people, and collect coins. Anyone can make a moveset out of that. But not everybody can make a moveset fitting a character with extraordinary magical powers, the ability to destroy practically everything, the force of a thousand armies, a menacing sword, and great agility.
There's a huge difference there.

They are good, but only when they're done right. Making clones follow standard, believable rules would defeat the whole purpose. It's not about what makes sense relative to the characters, it's about what's best for the game as a whole.

Unify the roster? You do realize that Ganondorf being a Captain Falcon clone is one of the most universally hated things about Smash, right? It's not really unifying anything so much as it is an object of jokes and jibes. Nobody really likes Ganondorf as a Captain Falcon clone. They might like the way he plays, like I do, but, as a general rule, they think that another character (i.e. Black Shadow) would be a better fit for that role. Plus, doing this would still unify the roster in a way. Because Black Shadow would inherit Ganondorf's moveset, people who played Ganondorf because of his playstyle would switch to Black Shadow, thus causing several Ganondorf fans to become Black Shadow fans. In this way, the Legend of Zelda fanbase and the F-Zero fanbase are still connected.

That still doesn't make any sense to me. It's entirely possible to balance Ganondorf's power and speed. It's been done before in other games, and Bowser is considered viable now. If Sakurai can find a way to properly balance Bowser, then he can find a way to balance Ganondorf. It shouldn't be terribly hard.

Like @ Schnee117 said, you have to sacrifice character accuracy for the sake of balance. Ganondorf can still be made somewhat accurate, just not to the same extent as in the Legend of Zelda games. He can still be really powerful, but most people would consider it acceptable for him to be slow. To them, it may not necessarily be entirely accurate, but it's the closest thing they can get, and it's believable, so they'll accept it.

How would making Ganondorf unique and introducing Black Shadow to take his former place not be in the best interest of the game? You're taking one of the most widely disliked elements in Smash, Ganondorf being a Captain Falcon clone, and fixing it to please a certain group fans, and you're introducing someone who fills Ganondorf's former role, Black Shadow, which pleases those who liked Ganondorf's former moveset, and giving F-Zero, a franchise that has been part of Smash since the very beginning, a second rep, which pleases the F-Zero fanbase. Everbody wins! You're gaining something, losing nothing, and pleasing everyone. If that's not a reason to make a clone, then I don't know what is.

 

[Schnee117]

Honestly I'd prefer Ganon (with the Trident and all) be the 'unique' Ganon incarnation because there are people that like Falcondorf (even though Saiyandorf is better) whilst we still got Black Shadow albeit a unique fighter rather than an inheritor to Falcondorf.

 

[LIQUID12A]

Technically, in regards to the accuracy argument, absolutely no one in Smash is accurate.

Not Ganondorf, not Falcon, not Palutena, not Mewtwo, whoever you want, they aren't accurate at all.

So that argument has no ground to stand on.

 

[Igzex]

If you people want to buff Mewtwo give her Contrary, Draco Meteor, and Psycho Boost. No new forms, moves, or stat boosts required.

 

[U-Throw]

Honestly I'd prefer Ganon (with the Trident and all) be the 'unique' Ganon incarnation because there are people that like Falcondorf (even though Saiyandorf is better) whilst we still got Black Shadow albeit a unique fighter rather than an inheritor to Falcondorf.

I like the idea that I've previously mentioned better, but I'd be OK with this. Though, isn't Ganon already in as Ganondorf's Final Smash? I just can't see Ganon becoming a playable character while Ganondorf has him as his Final Smash. I could be be wrong on this, however.

 

[Schnee117]

I like the idea that I've previously mentioned better, but I'd be OK with this. Though, isn't Ganon already in as Ganondorf's Final Smash? I just can't see Ganon becoming a playable character while Ganondorf has him as his Final Smash. I could be be wrong on this, however.

Different Ganons.
Twilight Princess Ganon is on all 4s but the LttP Ganon is on his hindcquarters with a weapon in hand. He's also of a blue colour (with an option for a Yuganon palette).

We have Link fighting Toon Link. It'd be like that (but with more diferences).

 

[ZephyrZ]

I can picture the Dark Beast's moveset now.

Up Special: Pork Chop Dive
Side Special: Ham Sandwich Boost
Down Special: Barbecued Ribs Kick
Neutral Special: Baaaaacon....PUNCH!

Final Smash: Goes "wee wee wee" all the way home.

 

[Schnee117]

I can picture the Dark Beast's moveset now.

Up Special: Pork Chop Dive
Side Special: Ham Sandwich Boost
Down Special: Barbecued Ribs Kick
Neutral Special: Baaaaacon....PUNCH!

Final Smash: Goes "wee wee wee" all the way home.

Yeah I'm tired but sleep is for the weak.
Also new found interest in Weiss (Don't worry @ Cutie Gwen Still love ya ; 3)

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Yeah I'm tired but sleep is for the weak.
Also new found interest in Weiss (Don't worry @ Cutie Gwen Still love ya ; 3)

Just after I win the righ for having Jakob as my Fates Husbando

 

[Schnee117]

Just after I win the righ for having Jakob as my Fates Husbando

Meanwhile I get the RNGoddess.

 

[DrRiceBoy]

Yeah I'm tired but sleep is for the weak.
Also new found interest in Weiss (Don't worry @ Cutie Gwen Still love ya ; 3)

Weiss is best rwby girl yo.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Yeah I'm tired but sleep is for the weak.
Also new found interest in Weiss (Don't worry @ Cutie Gwen Still love ya ; 3)

Rest in Peace, Monty Oum. Rest in Peace.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I kinda have to disagree a bit with that previous statement about no Smash character being accurate. They are accurate, most of them and to a certain extent, but they are also adapted in and out to function in the Smash universe. This is understandable considering the nature of the genre of some of their home games when compared to a 2D platform fighter.

An rpg such as Fire Emblem or Pokemon does not give you direct control of movement over your character and because battles are turned based, their actions are limited as well as their animations. This of course changes when they are transplanted into a fighting game, where they have freedom of movement and display more gameplay actions.

Take also Mario as an example, his moveset is accurate. He displays abilities from the 2D Mario games and most of his contact moves come from Super Mario 64. They obviously need some leeway when designing him otherwise it would severely gimp the character, like allowing him to use Fireballs without a Fire Flower while simultaneously having access to his Super Cape and FLUDD. In 2D Mario games, Mario has never been able to use two power ups at once so in Smash he has been adapted in a way to overcome this limitation.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I kinda have to disagree a bit with that previous statement about no Smash character being accurate. They are accurate, most of them and to a certain extent, but they are also adapted in and out to function in the Smash universe. This is understandable considering the nature of the genre of some of their home games when compared to a 2D platform fighter.

An rpg such as Fire Emblem or Pokemon does not give you direct control of movement over your character and because battles are turned based, their actions are limited as well as their animations. This of course changes when they are transplanted into a fighting game, where they have freedom of movement and display more gameplay actions.

Take also Mario as an example, his moveset is accurate. He displays abilities from the 2D Mario games and most of his contact moves come from Super Mario 64. They obviously need some leeway when designing him otherwise it would severely gimp the character, like allowing him to use Fireballs without a Fire Flower while simultaneously having access to his Super Cape and FLUDD. In 2D Mario games, Mario has never been able to use two power ups at once so in Smash he has been adapted in a way to overcome this limitation.

That limitation being removed counts as an inaccuracate thing. Marth and Lucina can't heal themselves, Marth isn't immune to sword attacks, Ike is fast and Robin shouldn't be able to have infinite weapons nor should he have Nosferatu

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

That limitation being removed counts as an inaccuracate thing. Marth and Lucina can't heal themselves, Marth isn't immune to sword attacks, Ike is fast and Robin shouldn't be able to have infinite weapons nor should he have Nosferatu

Which why I said that characters required to be adapted in order to work in this game. It is not exactly being inaccurate but rather being flexible while still being close to the source material. Stat numbers from RPG characters are meaningless as well and don't exactly translate into certain attributes, like Ike's speed, that is just merely a number to show how many times he can attack in one turn in relation to his opponents. Outside from that, speed is not a characteristic associated with him.

 

[ThePsychoWolf]

I'd say Link is pretty accurate.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Which why I said that characters required to be adapted in order to work in this game. It is not exactly being inaccurate but rather being flexible while still being close to the source material. Stat numbers from RPG characters are meaningless as well and don't exactly translate into certain attributes, like Ike's speed, that is just merely a number to show how many times he can attack in one turn in relation to his opponents. Outside from that, speed is not a characteristic associated with him.

I personally believe it's okay to have someone who's accurate and still have a balanced moveset, otherwise I wouldn't want Ridley

 

[ShinyRegice]

Looks like people are hyped for Pokkén here as I am maybe are you hyped about speculating the rest of the roster as well? I've created a mini-Rate Their Chances game, which is going to stop July 15th, one day before the game releases on arcade machines in Japan. Here's the link to the Pokkén RTC thread.

I chosen to start it with the three most obvious choices, the Pokémon who are playable in SSB4 but have yet to be confirmed for Pokkén, then I'll let people nominate the Pokémon they want to be rated.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Looks like people are hyped for Pokkén here as I am maybe are you hyped about speculating the rest of the roster as well? I've created a mini-Rate Their Chances game, which is going to stop July 15th, one day before the game releases on arcade machines in Japan. Here's the link to the Pokkén RTC thread.

I chosen to start it with the three most obvious choices, the Pokémon who are playable in SSB4 but have yet to be confirmed for Pokkén, then I'll let people nominate the Pokémon they want to be rated.

I think it's safe to say that outside of Blaziken, it's impossible to predict any characters

 

[U-Throw]

I think it's safe to say that outside of Blaziken, it's impossible to predict any characters

I dunno. I think Mewtwo is pretty much a lock. I mean, we're talking about the Luigi of Pokémon. In a game that focuses solely on representing the Pokémon series, I think it would be a little strange to see Mewtwo left out. If Mewtwo is popular enough to make it into Smash Bros., a game that focuses on representing all of Nintendo, I should think he's popular enough to make it into a game that just focuses on Pokémon. Maybe I'm the only one here who thinks this, though.

 

[Schnee117]

Pokken seems like a good opportunity to get some of the lesser known Pokemon out there amongst the popular ones. Haven't taken much advantage from what we've seen though.
Put Mewtwo, Sceptile, Greninja, Cobalion, Tyranitar and Infernape in for example.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Weavile's finisher has been confirmed to be an anti air move, to perform a finisher, one must be in Burst Mode and do something, I think you have to try activating it again. Charizard's finisher is boring

 

[ThePsychoWolf]

I want playable Hydreigon, Sceptile, and Scyther for Pokken.

 

[Karsticles]

Pokken seems like a good opportunity to get some of the lesser known Pokemon out there amongst the popular ones. Haven't taken much advantage from what we've seen though.
Put Mewtwo, Sceptile, Greninja, Cobalion, Tyranitar and Infernape in for example.

Mewtwo.
Lesser known.

Pick one.

 

[Schnee117]

Mewtwo.
Lesser known.

Pick one.

amongst the popular ones.

Reading.

 

[pikazz]

That limitation being removed counts as an inaccuracate thing. Marth and Lucina can't heal themselves, Marth isn't immune to sword attacks, Ike is fast and Robin shouldn't be able to have infinite weapons nor should he have Nosferatu

dont forget kirby cant use all of his special attacks except B because he hasnt copy them

weavile tho <3

 

[Karsticles]

Reading.

Learn to write a paragraph. The topic of your first sentence is lesser known Pokemon. Hence, the "for example" implicitly refers to your topic line. I am ceaselessly amazed by people that can't write a coherent thought, and try to put their shortcoming on someone else's reading.

I am a copy editor, by the way! Take the free advice with some semblance of dignity.

 

[Schnee117]

Learn to write a paragraph. The topic of your first sentence is lesser known Pokemon. Hence, the "for example" implicitly refers to your topic line. I am ceaselessly amazed by people that can't write a coherent thought, and try to put their shortcoming on someone else's reading.

I am a copy editor, by the way! Take the free advice with some semblance of dignity.

Oh please.
I gave examples of popular and lesser known Pokemon because that's what I was talking about. Lesser known Pokemon mixed with more well known ones.
Popular legendary = Mewtwo. Lesser known legendary = Cobalion.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Learn to write a paragraph. The topic of your first sentence is lesser known Pokemon. Hence, the "for example" implicitly refers to your topic line. I am ceaselessly amazed by people that can't write a coherent thought, and try to put their shortcoming on someone else's reading.

I am a copy editor, by the way! Take the free advice with some semblance of dignity.

He said it was a good way to mix popular pokemon with unpopular ones, he mentions Tyranitar aswell

 

[U-Throw]

I'm going to have to side with @ Karsticles on this one. @ Schnee117 's sentence did confuse me at first. I had to reread it 2 or 3 times for it make sense. What Karsticles says is true, too. When you read what he wrote, your brain automatically assumes that each example will pertain to the first subject given. Now, if I were to say RegiGiygas117's post out loud, then it would make perfect sense to most people, but, because it's written, it just doesn't look right. Kind of like how people are often fond of ending spoken sentences with prepositions, even though such a sentence makes little sense when written out. I think it's pretty obvious that RegiGiygas117 wrote his post as a stream of consciousness, as most of us tend to do, and simply didn't think to read over it. I'm guilty of it myself sometimes. Some things that sound perfectly OK when spoken just don't make sense when written out. I don't why our brains work like that, but they do.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

I have something interesting to share.

 

[Schnee117]

I have something interesting to share.

Is it just a screenshot?
Not trusting it. We need proper gameplay ala ESRB leak.

 

[U-Throw]

I have something interesting to share.

I've seen this before, as well, and, as cool as it would be if it were true, it's not. These are the sources for the models you see in the screenshot.

Popo's model's source.

Nana's model's source.

Pichu's model's source.

They probably photoshopped the models into a blank Results screen. It wouldn't be the first time, either. A while back, somebody "leaked" a video of Ridley clapping in one of the losers' cut-away boxes, and it turned it out to be fake. This seems to be a similar case, especially since we know that the models are unoriginal. Sorry!

 

[Schnee117]

It's funny how Smash leaks have changed.
Now we've got tools to make models and people with a great talent for that stuff that gameplay is the only solid source (aside from the Gematsu stuff. But that got outdated).