Social Spoon Sword Social

[Ryu Myuutsu]

This Diancie

Naughty nature

HP 30
ATK 30
DEF 30
SPA 30
SPDEF 16
speed 21

I know that speed should be prioritized but this the event Diancie I'm talking about, you have to go through a cutscene EVERY. SINGLE. TIME I pick it up and it's been driving me nuts. What do you guys think?

 

[LIQUID12A]

This Diancie

Naughty nature

HP 30
ATK 30
DEF 30
SPA 30
SPDEF 16
speed 21

I know that speed should be prioritized but this the event Diancie I'm talking about, you have to go through a cutscene EVERY time I pick it up. What do you guys think?

Depends on what you want to use Diancie for.

A sweeper needs speed, and a tank needs bulk, so it really wouldn't benefit that much from speed.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I plan on using it's Mega Evolution. Not exactly a full fledged sweeper but more like an offensive wall of sorts. Mega Diancie's speed stat is 110.

 

[Spirst]

I STRONGLY disagree with, "If you have to play top-tier characters to win, then you're a noob and a coward, and if you aren't confident enough in yourself to win as a "bad" character, then how good are you?" I don't think the people who are thinking that really understand the situation M2K or some other top players live in. M2K has, from what I'm aware of, no job outside of Smash and this means that if he wants to be able to support himself, he needs to win money from tournaments. When something like that is on the line, why would you intentionally handicap yourself and use a lower-tier character when you can boost your chances by using the best? It just doesn't make sense, logistically. I've been playing Mewtwo since Melee but honestly, what does character loyalty really even do other than present some personal satisfaction? Nothing special is going to happen simply because I've used Mewtwo for a long time. Personal satisfaction =/= winning tournaments and making money. I get that this a game and we should have fun with it but I think some people are overlooking the fact that on a highly competitive level with bigger prizes at hand, it's a whole new ball park. I myself am not a fan of using top tiers to win but I respect what it is and why it's done. Like I've said before, being a "low tier hero" isn't really all it's cracked up to be and is incredibly lionized. Just respect how different people play the game.

 

[pikazz]

both Speed and Mario Smith have a valid point. but that isnt only thing that plays:

there are at least 3 sections that makes a character good, there are their Options, the Risk and Reward and one more thing I forgot. I believe it would be "the strings" and setups.

the options is basically how wide a characters options are, like if Sheik does a FTilt, what option does she have? what can she do? she can do a Grab, Jab, FTilt, FAir, NAir and more
these options applys to everything.

the Risk and Reward is basically what it sounds. the lower the risk and higher reward, the better.
many of the top tiers has many low risk and high reward. a prime example is Diddy Hoo Hah before Patch there the risk for grabbing your opponent is stupid low and the rewards was rediciously good

the strings and setups is basically bread and butter for dealing damage and getting kills. example, how can Sheik do the most damage and giving the opponent the lowest chance to avoid. easy tht would be FAir->FAir->FAir.
how can a setup be done for that string? Needles or a Jab to FTilt


some character do indeed need less skill to be good at, but you cant be really braindead for it.

theorically, a character that has basically these 3 sections against the character itself has more learning curve to be good while someone that gotten these on a silver plate doesnt need that higher learning curve to be good. there is a learning curve but just isnt big enough for that other one

so on paper, the one that plays the "higher learning curve" have more skill than the one that plays the "lower learning curve"

(please note I said on paper and theorically)

 

[ミスティック Speed]

I think that Speed has a point. I have been using this same point as well for the past 3 years. If you have to play top-tier characters to win, then you're a noob and a coward, and if you aren't confident enough in yourself to win as a "bad" character, then how good are you? You all need to stop defending these players just because they win. I could go whip up a Brawl Hack that makes Mario do 999% on all of his attacks, win every tournament I attend (if he doesn't get banned), and call myself the greatest players in the world, but am I? No. I'd be a noob who had to make an overpowered character to win, and in real-smash terms, quote "good players" play their hacked Mario (Pikachu/Fox/Metaknight/Sheik+Diddy) in order to win as well.

When I play competitive Melee, I'm sticking with my Melee-two, regardless of how "viable" he is.

Thank you.

Seriously, they call themselves pros and masters of Smash, but theoretically, if they were masters, they could use ANY character in the game and place high in a tournament.
I don't care what money has to do with it, it's still the truth. Deny it as you may.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Yeah, well, **** on paper/theory is horseshoes and hand-grenades. IMO. Results speak for itself: The other guy is using the tools that he's chosen better than you. Plain and simple.

And most of the top players can use a wide variety of characters and be ridiculously successful. Look at all of the top players in Melee. They have a wide variety of characters that pick out from time-to-time depending on the matchup. Hell, that might be a trend here in Smash 4, depending on whether or not the meta progresses as far along.

...unless scrubby people with scrubby mentalities continue to hinder the game's growth. Not naming names, but it should be pretty obvious. Also, I would love to see the lot of you grousing about how easy top tiers are when you take them to a national and get bodied by some of the community's biggest and brightest. You probably wouldn't even make it out of your pools, let alone break into bracket, even if you did pick Diddy or Sheik or whatever perceived top character.

Smooth Criminal

 

[meleebrawler]

Thank you.

Seriously, they call themselves pros and masters of Smash, but theoretically, if they were masters, they could use ANY character in the game and place high in a tournament.
I don't care what money has to do with it, it's still the truth. Deny it as you may.

No matter what the truth is, it just ain't right to discredit people based on the characters they use.

 

[LIQUID12A]

Thank you.

Seriously, they call themselves pros and masters of Smash, but theoretically, if they were masters, they could use ANY character in the game and place high in a tournament.
I don't care what money has to do with it, it's still the truth. Deny it as you may.

Not to shatter your reality there, but even a well played Mii Swordfighter is not going to place high in a tournament full of Diddy, Sheik and Sonic, for instance.

Also, such an attitude is rather arrogant. I'd drop it.

 

[pikazz]

Something I really want is a "Pro player" picks a low tier character and wins the whole tourny with it!

but I cant be the judge of that, its there choice to select the character they want to play as and I have no right to say they should play someone else

 

[Smooth Criminal]

It's happened countless times in other games. They're pros for a reason, after all.

Again: The results speak for themselves.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Deleted member]

Thank you.

Seriously, they call themselves pros and masters of Smash, but theoretically, if they were masters, they could use ANY character in the game and place high in a tournament.
I don't care what money has to do with it, it's still the truth. Deny it as you may.

Agreed. I usually tend to play every character in the Smash Bros. games, regardless of if I lose or not. Besides, how are you really going to see how viable a character is if you never take the time to actually play them?

 

[meleebrawler]

Agreed. I usually tend to play every character in the game, regardless of if I lose or not. Besides, how are you really going to see how viable a character is if you never take the time to actually play them?

Playing a character to learn about them and playing with them to get good with them are two wholly different beasts.
Do you really think it's plausible take the effort players put into their dedicated mains and do the same for 50+ characters, let
alone do so without atrophying the skills they learned with other characters in the process? And even if such a person
did exist, it would take years for him to get to a point where he could take tournaments regardless of who he used.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I think that Speed has a point. I have been using this same point as well for the past 3 years. If you have to play top-tier characters to win, then you're a noob and a coward, and if you aren't confident enough in yourself to win as a "bad" character, then how good are you? You all need to stop defending these players just because they win. I could go whip up a Brawl Hack that makes Mario do 999% on all of his attacks, win every tournament I attend (if he doesn't get banned), and call myself the greatest players in the world, but am I? No. I'd be a noob who had to make an overpowered character to win, and in real-smash terms, quote "good players" play their hacked Mario (Pikachu/Fox/Metaknight/Sheik+Diddy) in order to win as well.

When I play competitive Melee, I'm sticking with my Melee-two, regardless of how "viable" he is.

Huge flaw in your example; you're assuming your the only one who has access to the hacked Mario.

Meanwhile, everyone has access to Shiek, Pikachu, Rosalina, and so on. You need to fight fire with fire if you seriously want to win, ya know?

Thank you.

Seriously, they call themselves pros and masters of Smash, but theoretically, if they were masters, they could use ANY character in the game and place high in a tournament.
I don't care what money has to do with it, it's still the truth. Deny it as you may.

You're forgetting top players have other top players to compete with.



If using high-tier characters makes winning large-scale tournaments so easy, why don't you guys go pick up Sheik and make it into top 5 in the next one?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

@ ZephyrZ

Exactly.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Deleted member]

Playing a character to learn about them and playing with them to get good with them are two wholly different beasts.
Do you really think it's plausible take the effort players put into their dedicated mains and do the same for 50+ characters, let
alone do so without atrophying the skills they learned with other characters in the process? And even if such a person
did exist, it would take years for him to get to a point where he could take tournaments regardless of who he used.

No, it's not. Because "competitive" players usually don't use characters because their "unviable" (in which case the greatest character in the game becomes their "childhood favorite" by default), but if you never actually explore said "bad" character, and take the time to learn them then evaluate their "worth", then how are you going to be able to tell whether they are "unviable", or simply unexplored? I'm not saying that every character in the smash bros. games are balanced, not at all, but if you don't have the audacity to actually try out an underrated character, then how competitive are you?

You people need to stop idolizing these players and realize that they are just players: players who are playing to win, and who are too unsure of themselves to take the risk of playing any character besides the ones that are the undisputed best.

Edit: I have mained every character in every smash game, and have won multiple tournaments with said characters, and it only took me however long I wanted it to take, because when you are dedicated to a cause, you can reach astronomical heights sooner than you would expect.

 

[ZephyrZ]

You people need to stop idolizing these players and realize that they are just players: players who are playing to win, and who are too unsure of themselves to take the risk of playing any character besides the ones that are the undisputed best.

Are they players who are too unsure of themselves, or players who just aren't going to take huge risk when there is money on the line?

Oh, and btw, I don't really idolize them that much. I don't really care about winning tournaments myself.

 

[Deleted member]

Are they players who are too unsure of themselves, or players who just aren't going to take huge risk when there is money on the line?

Oh, and btw, I don't really idolize them that much. I don't really care about winning tournaments myself.

You're technically proving my point. The fact that playing a "bad" character is viewed by them as "a huge risk that's better unattempted" as opposed to "another walk in the park", means that they're obviously not as "amazing" as they (and others) claim them to be.

Also, you can say one thing, but your posts insinuate an entirely different story.

 

[U-Throw]

I think that Speed has a point. I have been using this same point as well for the past 3 years. If you have to play top-tier characters to win, then you're a noob and a coward, and if you aren't confident enough in yourself to win as a "bad" character, then how good are you? You all need to stop defending these players just because they win. I could go whip up a Brawl Hack that makes Mario do 999% on all of his attacks, win every tournament I attend (if he doesn't get banned), and call myself the greatest players in the world, but am I? No. I'd be a noob who had to make an overpowered character to win, and in real-smash terms, quote "good players" play their hacked Mario (Pikachu/Fox/Metaknight/Sheik+Diddy) in order to win as well.

When I play competitive Melee, I'm sticking with my Melee-two, regardless of how "viable" he is.

I can't believe we're even having this argument. You act like Sheik and Diddy take absolutely no skill to use. Like LIQUIDFCG said, you have to have familiarity with the character in order to properly use them. Otherwise, you're very likely to get curbstomped. Also, like Spirst said, several top-level competitive players make their living off Smash, so deliberately handicapping yourself with a low-tier character is literally making your life harder. There's no rhyme or reason to it.

Comparing Sheik and Diddy to a Mario that deals 999% on every attack doesn't elicit a proper response. It's completely irrational. Believe it or not, Sheik and Diddy are far from braindead, and they take skill to use properly.

Likewise, calling Mew2King and other top-level competitive players "n00bs" and "cowards" is equally laughable. They play to win, and, at top-level play, everyone uses high-tier characters. Handicapping yourself, as I said before, makes no sense. Like Zachmac said, you have to fight fire with fire. Also, I'd to like to see you and and Speed go head-to-head with Mew2King in Smash 4. I can 100% guarantee you that Mew2King could use Lucina/Mii Swordfighter/Zelda/whoever else you want and utterly crush your Sheik/Diddy/Mewtwo. You're making bold statements that you could never follow through with. Mew2King's skill level is leaps and bounds ahead of any of this thread's regulars, regardless of which character he uses. He would stomp all of us into the dirt.

As for them only using characters that are considered top-tier because they don't have the courage to try out low-tier characters, just what do you think they do? Sit around and wait for a tier list to come out? They make the tier lists. They're the ones who determine who's high-tier and who's low-tier by testing each and every one of them out and analyzing their tournament results. They, of all people, should know who is high- and low-tier. Mew2King made a data dump for all of the characters in Melee, so he literally knows the internal workings of every character in Melee. He can play almost all of them at a high level, but chooses to stick to high-tier characters because competitive Smash is his bread and butter. He chooses not to use low-tier characters at major tournaments because it can jeopardize his monetary stability. Is that so bad?

Anyway, why don't you just go on ahead and play him? To be perfectly blunt, you're acting arrogant and foolish, and you need to be put in your place. I don't idolize Mew2King and other top-level competitive players because they win: I respect them because they have attained an incredibly high level of skill that few players can ever dream of reaching. There's a huge difference.

 

[Igzex]

I still think it proves he has less skill if he needs a top tier character to get him wins.

That's like saying he's less skilled for not using a nerf ball launcher in a gun fight. Video games like this are unbalanced by nature so you gotta pick the good tools to increase your chances of emerging victorious.

 

[MewtwoMaster2002]

Pachirisu won a Pokemon World Tournament last year...then again, Pokemon is an entirely different game.

Edit: And if I ever decide to use a tournament, I'll use Mewtwo and Ness because I know how to use them more compared to high tier characters...

 

[Igzex]

That was a doubles tournament. Almost anything can happen in doubles. Freaking. Anything.

Also why blame the player for maining a overpowered character. Blame the people who designed the game. It's not ZeRo/Mew2King/whatever's fault that the top tiers are so much better than the other characters and only get minor nerfs with balance updates.

 

[Deleted member]

Anyway, why don't you just go on ahead and play him? To be perfectly blunt, you're acting arrogant and foolish, and you need to be put in your place. I don't idolize Mew2King and other top-level competitive players because they win: I respect them because they have attained an incredibly high level of skill that few players can ever dream of reaching. There's a huge difference.

You don't know what would happen if we both fought full-throttle against each other, but I do know what U are: MAD BRO?

But trolling aside. Regardless of the excuses that you are conjuring up here, they're still excuses, and if they can't actually play bad characters and win, then obviously their skill level is still on this world, maybe even underground.

There's a difference between being a good Melee Fox and being a good player.

 

[LIQUID12A]

You don't know what would happen if we both fought full-throttle against each other, but I do know what U are: MAD BRO?

He's just countering your point. That doesn't necessarily mean being mad. That you're actively provoking him is another matter entirely.

But trolling aside. Regardless of the excuses that you are conjuring up here, they're still excuses, and if they can't actually play bad characters and win, then obviously their skill level is still on this world, maybe even underground.

Go to a regional yourself, or any other big, notable tournament, play 1111 Mii Swordfighter, and take first place, then you can use this argument, because something like that would cause quite a stir in the community when tournaments are full of top tiers.

Of course, you'll tell me you can't.

So don't use an argument without backup to prove it.

 

[ZephyrZ]

You don't know what would happen if we both fought full-throttle against each other, but I do know what U are: MAD BRO?

But trolling aside. Regardless of the excuses that you are conjuring up here, they're still excuses, and if they can't actually play bad characters and win, then obviously their skill level is still on this world, maybe even underground.

There's a difference between being a good Melee Fox and being a good player.

This argument is becoming very circular.

 

[Deleted member]

Go to a regional or any other big, notable tournament, play 1111 Mii Swordfighter, and take first place, then you can use this argument, because something like that would cause quite a stir in the community when tournaments are full of top tiers.

If the time ever comes, then sure, although I'm not the one claiming to be legions-upon-legions better than everybody else just because I can walk into a tournament, so this isn't an entirely valid rebuttal.

 

[ZephyrZ]

If the time ever comes, then sure, although I'm not the one claiming to be legions-upon-legions better than everybody else just because I can walk into a tournament, so this isn't an entirely valid rebuttal.

There are countless other skilled player who use high-tier characters in every tournament, and especially so in ones like Apex.

To come out on top is extremely impressive, even if you're using a high-tier character yourself. There is a reason we keep seeing the top players score the highest, and it's not simply because of their character choice; they have a lot of competition in that regard.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

None of the top players need to brag about their accomplishments.

Once again, for the umpteenth ****ing time, the results speak for themselves.

Smooth Criminal

 

[LIQUID12A]

If the time ever comes, then sure, although I'm not the one claiming to be legions-upon-legions better than everybody else just because I can walk into a tournament, so this isn't an entirely valid rebuttal.

It's also not entirely valid to say:

Regardless of the excuses that you are conjuring up here, they're still excuses.

Excuses based on what, your own perception of things? Is this a universally shared perception by the entire Smash community? Rally about, what's fair, fifteen-thousand people that agree and then I'll change my opinion. Smash has a massive player base, so it's not unreasonable. I'll wait.

Nor is it valid to say:

There's a difference between being a good Melee Fox and being a good player.

A good Melee Fox knows how he works, what to do and when to do things with him, his bad and good MU's, and loads of other data that other players would die to know at the level the good Melee Fox knows, so he's a good player.

What kind of backwards thinking are you using?

 

[Igzex]

Little do you all know I may be a casual as heck player by day, I become a super hero smash player at night who tries to save the mii swordfighter metagame.

Lets also just say I am also a very tragic hero.

 

[LIQUID12A]

Side note, @ U-Throw :

Like LIQUIDFCG said

I kind of changed my name months ago.

 

[DrRiceBoy]

Putting aside whether or not maining a top tier makes you skilled or not... what difference does it make if someone mains a top tier? We all play and like Smash. I can guarantee you that M2K and ZeRo both love Smash to death. Why are we disrespecting fellow Smashers? Sure, they're playing it for a different reason (mainly to win because it's their job), but in the end they play and like Smash like we do. Just like how we all like to play Mewtwo, they like to win. Wanting to win is not a bad thing. It's just a different reason for liking Smash. We're all the same. We may play for different reasons, but in the end we all like Smash.

M2K and ZeRo aren't bashing us for not focusing on winning and not playing top tiers... so why are we bashing them for trying to win and playing top tiers? It's not right.

 

[Deleted member]

Excuses based on what, your own perception of things? Is this a universally shared perception by the entire Smash community? Rally about, what's fair, fifteen-thousand people that agree and then I'll change my opinion. Smash has a massive player base, so it's not unreasonable. I'll wait.

Saying that they don't play said character because X is an excuse.

A good Melee Fox knows how he works, what to do and when to do things with him, his bad and good MU's, and loads of other data that other players would die to know at the level the good Melee Fox knows, so he's a good player.

But do they know about the rest of the game (besides matchups)? No. Therefor they are nothing more than just a Fox player. Done.

 

[Schnee117]

But do they know about the rest of the game (besides matchups)? No. Therefor they are nothing more than just a Fox player. Done.

I didn't know you knew about everything all the top Smash players in the world knew and did.

 

[LIQUID12A]

But do they know about the rest of the game (besides matchups)? No. Therefor they are nothing more than just a Fox player. Done.

Actually, yes.

A good Melee player in general, not just a Fox main, understands how the core mechanics of Melee work. They know the physics, the glitches and how it can work against or in favor of them. How to wavedash, how to DACUS, how to L-cancel, how to do all those fancy things that Melee players know to do.

That's basically required knowledge for playing Melee competitively. Why else are these players, not just Fox mains, considered professionals? Just because they know one singular character? Knowledge of a character doesn't help without knowledge of the environment you're in.

 

[MewtwoMaster2002]

I agree that it is easier to win with top tiers, but it also takes a lot of time and skills to learn the ins and outs of the characters. I find it perfectly reasonable that the top players use the top characters to win tournaments, especially with money on the line. However, Smash 4 scene is still young. There's much to learn. That's why it's also good that some of the top players are also learning other characters outside of tournaments and helping others learn.

Personally I prefer playing casually with my favorite characters and stages. My favorite stages are all probably banned. I don't want to spend money going to tournaments that I know I'll lose. I'd be down for tournaments with no money on the line though. And while it would make more sense to use top tier characters in tournaments, I don't use them nearly as much as my favorites to use them effectively. Therefore I would stand a better chance using my favorites even though I probably won't win tournaments.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Tier lists are a sore subject to say the least. They shouldn't exist, but they do. The reason people don't play as Mewtwo in tournaments is because they are there to win. Is it impossible to win a tournament with a low tier character? No, because after a tournament is won by said character the tier list would shift to put said character higher I'm the list.

So, until that is proven that a low tier character is actually high tier, tournament players who play to win will choose the character that has the greatest success rate because in that way the character had been proven to be high tier. It's all just logic, really.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Wait, we arguing about top tiers? Tournament guys make a living playing this, they use the money to buy food and pay bills, why would they use a character that isn't good when their life legitimately depends on it?

 

[Yoshisaurus Rex]

Everyone has the freedom to play whatever character they want regardless of it being top tier or not. I main Yoshi not because he is one of the top characters in SSB4 but because I've always been a fan of the character in general and I've been playing him since the N64 days. If I was in a major tournament scene where a lot is at stake then I would no doubt play it safe by choosing Yoshi rather than Mewtwo or Bowser. However I'm not really into the tournament scene and I'm happy just playing a few rounds in For Glory.

As for the top players, I don't necessarily idolize them but I do have respect for them because they dedicated a lot of their time to the game and improving their skills and I'm 100% sure that I could never beat because I'm not at their skill levels.

 

[DrRiceBoy]

Everyone has the freedom to play whatever character they want regardless of it being top tier or not.

This x150. It basically boils down to this one sentence. Play whoever the heck you want for whatever reason. If the reason is that you want to win tournaments... go for it! If the reason is because you like how the character jumps... go for it! If the reason is because the character is your childhood hero... go for it! The reason behind choosing your character does not matter. People can play whoever the heck they want and nobody has the right to call them a fool for it.