Spear Pillar: Counterpick or Not?

[betterthanbonds9]

Before people start flaming me for even the notion of CP spear pillar, hear me out. EDIT: If you have problem with Palkia's effects or are not sure what Palkia's unique effects are, they are the flipping of the stage, lowering the gravity, and inverting the stage. So do not post anything about those effects.

first, im arguing that only the cresselia and dialga stages are CP worthy, palkia deserves the ban.
second, i just spent the last hour trying to figure out exactly what did what, so please don't reply to contradict me without having tested it first.

alright, time for some stats, everybody loves stats

chances of a pokemon appearing (note: i did this on training mode to be most efficient):
-dialga 23/50= 46%
-palkia 19/50= 38%
-cresselia 8/50= 16%
----of the 50 trials only three-peated dialga and palkia once, a repeat was more common with dialga than palkia, cressy repeated once as well.

now for the effects of each pokemon (as far as i can tell, it's completly random with the lasers and stage distruction as to which location will receive the effect)

----------------Dialga-------------------
stage destruction 0% (3 locations)
laser- 27% (4 locations)
halve the speed of the characters
jump out of center-25% (affects a little more than half of upper level)
tilt stage (wolf's lasers still followed the floor, didn't go literally straight ahead)

----------------Palkia-------------------
Stage destruction
laser
lower the gravity
switch controls
flip stage (which also switches controls)
tilt stage

----------------Cresselia-----------------
single cresent 20% (pink in color, semi homing, but not really)
multiple cresents (cannot hit bottom floor) forget the % iirc it's somewhere between 15-20

the laser is completly shieldable, same with dialga jumping on the stage, and cressy's pink cresent. The cresents are all air-dodgable, roll-dodge, spotdodge. I COULD NOT air or spotdodge dialga no matter how hard i tried when he jumped out.

with all that said, i find that the ONLY part of this stage that is bannable from tournies is palkia's due to the changing of controls (even the low gravity isn't that bad because it generally lasts for less time than in PS2).

so here's the real case why the other 2 should be allowed, it's based off of 2 main arguments
1: you are warned before any effect
2: no effect is in anyway over powered

dialga before he acts ALWAYS does a head roll, about halfway through an action will take place (unless he's jumping out, in which case, he waits until the end and then another second, then jumps, waits a half second, does his thing, retreats). If it's a laser, you have enough time to run away or simply grab a ledge (if it's a vertical laser you can even stand on the edge without getting hit, without needed to do the "hanging over the ledge" dance characters do). The stage destruction is a minimal effect at the most can be argued to have the same effect as PS1 and PS2, both are at least CP imo. Last, tilting the stage is nothing, lylat cruise tilts more, and more randomly but most have that as neutral.

Cresselia ALWAYS becomes brighter, shakes, screams before acting and is always in a pattern (lets call the rapid fire attack Attack A and the single one Attack B). If cressy starts off with A then the next on is B and so on, even when returning to the stage after disapearing, she keeps the pattern. Of course the same applies for if she starts with attack B. Now i know some people (if they are still reading this) are thinking "But Brian, how do we know which will be first?!" It's pretty simple, if you see air swirling ABOVE cressy she's readying A. If there's a pink swirl more "on" cressy (that's the only way i can describe it) she's readying B. I made a mistake is saying that her attack is "homing". What cressy really does is fire off her pink cresent and randomly chooses from one of 3 paths. One path starts in the upper left, crosses the top level, then crosses the bottom. The second makes a figure 8 starting in the upper left and finishes in the lower left (if you know what a figure 8 looks like, that makes sense to you. Last, this one is the fastest, starts in the upper left and goes down, crosses the bottom level and then goes up.
--Also, I have seen the teching on the bottom level harmed by cressy's rapidfire cresents (it's the only way to get hit by them on the bottom level) so even though cressy can't blast people or destroy terrain, the cave of life doesn't work with cressy.

now i know some people are still thinking "Well, how do we know if dialga/cressy are startign and not that ****ed Palkia?" It's rather obvious really, if the tiles are pink, it's Palkia (it's impossible to miss), if the tiles are blue it's either Dialga or Cressy (i spent most of those 50 trials trying to discern the difference in the stage between the 2, i failed). My camera sucks, but the dojo's pictures are good enough to be able to see the difference between the pink and the blue.

http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/stage29.html

thought I'd add in a subject about the cave of life just so it's easier to see basically, dialga stops the CoL by destroying terrain and blasting them out, cressy uses her cresents. These tactics also stop characters from running around constantly like in temple. Also unlike temple, there are no horizonal areas that will save your *** and keep you alive, once you hit ~170% i dont care who you are, you are zooming out of there. My friend and I once stayed in temple constantly getting above 500% damage for a 7 stock match (for the lulz). We lasted 15 minutes (3 stock) and quit. I can safely say that this situation simply doesn't happen nearly to that extent or efficiency in brawl and in Spear Pillar

And finally, my solution to the problem that is spear pillar: if you see pink press pause (let go of pause) then L+R+A+start, repeat as necesary. I know it might waste some 25 seconds maximum (depending on load times), but the stage is so good it deserves the time.

tl;dr-then dont post (i didn't just spend all this time writing this to have somebody blindly refute this)

 

[Niblet]

Yeah Im down with this. Only 1 out of my group of friends does not like the stage and it is because of Palkia. When we play the stage, we tend to get a lot of double appearances so 2x Palkia's and 2x Dialga's quite often. Also thanks for bringing the color to my attention. It will definitely be welcomed.

 

[Honto-E-Lawl]

hmmm i agree...i think we should give it its chance....
good work with all that though...i think im actually going to pick that stage now sometimes

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Yeah Im down with this. Only 1 out of my group of friends does not like the stage and it is because of Palkia. When we play the stage, we tend to get a lot of double appearances so 2x Palkia's and 2x Dialga's quite often. Also thanks for bringing the color to my attention. It will definitely be welcomed.

about your friend and palkia: I'm exactly the same way (and so are most of the people that argue against SP, complaining about the controls). But most people dont realize that SP is only unfair when palkia is there.

color: no problem, it seems a lot of people didn't know about the color, which surprises me

hmmm i agree...i think we should give it its chance....
good work with all that though...i think im actually going to pick that stage now sometimes

thanks

 

[MysticKenji]

Explain away the Cave of Life plz.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Explain away the Cave of Life plz.

the cave of life? am i missing something here?

 

[verditude]

the cave of life? am i missing something here?

Melee Temple was banned for 2 reasons.
1. Too huge, fast characters could run constantly.
2. (The important one) In the lower level, you can DI yourself into the ceiling when you get hit and tech even at 300+ damage, stopping any real knockback.
Players can camp in the bottom area of Spear Pillar, DI into the ceiling, and tech every hit they take, living to insane percentages.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Melee Temple was banned for 2 reasons.
1. Too huge, fast characters could run constantly.
2. (The important one) In the lower level, you can DI yourself into the ceiling when you get hit and tech even at 300+ damage, stopping any real knockback.
Players can camp in the bottom area of Spear Pillar, DI into the ceiling, and tech every hit they take, living to insane percentages.

lol, didn't kow they called that the situation the cave of life. My firends always called it "the pit" or "the hole", but it never struck me to call it "the cave"

actually, i was just playing as metaknight against lvl 9 marth to see this in action and yes, he did tech all the time (i was about to edit my original post to include this). The big thing is that this stage actually destroys the notion of "the cave of life" (CoL from now on if i mention it again) by destroying the stage that would be tech'd AND making people go to the upper part of the stage with about 50% of the lasers focusing on the lower half. the marth lived up to 170 twice in the 3 matches i played, otherwise he died at more typical (at least for me, im barely above average with meta) 130-150.

sorry for addressing this in backwards order....but i thought your second point was more important to address first. Basically solved in my first answer anyway. YOU CANNOT CAMP IN THIS STAGE, YOU WILL BE BLASTED! This also proves a separate point that the beams and the terrain destruction do not "harm" this stage's ability to become CP, they strengthen(sp?) it

 

[Rhubarbo]

Remember Great Bay? It was banned in singles because it had the loop. Spear Pillar has a bigger loop. Also, I don't think you can decide which Pokemon is present. Sorry if you mentioned something about these two issues, I can't read your whole thing, it's too long!

 

[CodeytheRhino]

Didn't know that each pkmn had many different attacks. I guess I never pay attention.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Remember Great Bay? It was banned in singles because it had the loop. Spear Pillar has a bigger loop. Also, I don't think you can decide which Pokemon is present. Sorry if you mentioned something about these two issues, I can't read your whole thing, it's too long!

first thing's first, it doesn't matter that the "loop" is bigger, the stage automatically makes the idea of running around infinitely a bad idea, just to list a few of the reasons why...

--------DIALGA-------
-lasers either A. slow the progress down to a halt by stopping their movement through shields or edge grabbing OR B. the dont even go near where the laser is going and are cornered
-destructable terrain makes it next to impossible to safely run away
-he jumps in the middle of the stage, yeah, dont even try jumping over him (i've tried, it's not fun)

--------CRESSY-------
-dont dare run around on the upper level with the rapid fir going, which means the opponent is forced to stop
-every one of the cresent's patterns have the same affect as the laser, but it is easy to air dodge, it still limits their direction to the opposite of the cresent's

and that should prove that IT DOESNT MATTER IF YOU CAN'T CHOOSE WHAT POKEMON APPEARS AS LONG AS YOU KNOW IT'S NOT PALKIA

from the original post:

My camera sucks, but the dojo's pictures are good enough to be able to see the difference between the pink and the blue.

http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/stage29.html

And finally, my solution to the problem that is spear pillar: if you see pink press pause (let go of pause) then L+R+A+start, repeat as necesary. I know it might waste some 25 seconds maximum (depending on load times), but the stage is so good it deserves the time.

tl;dr-then dont post (i didn't just spend all this time writing this to have somebody blindly refute this)

seriously, this is what i call blindly refuting this. I didn't spend about an hour and 20 minutes on it gathering data on the stage then another 15 or so writing; to not have it read for it's length. Be glad that it's long, that way it (should be) filled with information used to answer some basic questions and solve some of the more difficult issues with reasoning.

btw Rhubarbo, tl;dr means "too long; didn't read" it is then followed by a simple solution to the wall of text.

Also, i spent about 5 minutes with each pokemon that matters as sonic running around the stage from a lvl 9 ganondorf. He does catch you, you have no choice.

 

[MysticKenji]

Remember Great Bay? It was banned in singles because it had the loop. Spear Pillar has a bigger loop. Also, I don't think you can decide which Pokemon is present. Sorry if you mentioned something about these two issues, I can't read your whole thing, it's too long!

You make long posts and you complain about a long post? Fail.

 

[Evilpenguin]

SP is my favorite stage. I especially love when Palkia flips the stage upsidedown because I can play that way and my friends can't.

But honestly I think that it will be banned. There are too many stage hazards and a cave.

I can always hope; I'd be fine if Rumble Falls, Hyrule, and New Pork were the only banned stages.

 

[Eten]

I find this to be fair evidence to have Spear Pillar as a counterpick. But... I'm not sure. I think, at least, this can let spear pillar be played (non-palkia) at first instead of starting out on the ban list. IF other problems arise in actual play in the future, then it could be banned.

 

[TechnoMonster]

I'd ban this stage due to major KO worthy stage hazards that you can toss your opponent into?

 

[betterthanbonds9]

I'd ban this stage due to major KO worthy stage hazards that you can toss your opponent into?

so...norfair, brinstar, halberd, distant planet, pictochat, and corneria deserve the ban?

it's actually pretty hard to do that because if you throw them too early, they can grab a ledge or just run, and if it's too late, that KO potential blast in the beam doesn't hit

 

[Pieman0920]

I don't think a stage should be banned for a hazard as long as there's enough time to know it will happen. Thus, I think Distant Planet is OK, while The Summit is iffy. The lazer beams can be seen though, and they are indiscriminate. They shouldn't be a reason to ban. as you can get away with enough skill, or simply send your less skilled opponent into them. Sure there are lucky hits, but the same can be said about almost anything.

The time slowing and flipping works the same way, and while it will indeed disrupt someone, you can overcome it with skill.

The loop though is where the problem is. The same stalling effects can be done with it as could be done in say Temple. And Dialga and Palkia do indeed break the stage, Cressalia doesn't. Thus, there may be reason to ban.

 

[DRaGZ]

I think the major problem with Spear Pillar is that, when you're in the lower cave and there are no broken ceilings, if a massive laser comes in sideways through the cave it's difficult to escape in time. The best thing you can do is shield, but sometimes even that breaks.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

I don't think a stage should be banned for a hazard as long as there's enough time to know it will happen. Thus, I think Distant Planet is OK, while The Summit is iffy. The lazer beams can be seen though, and they are indiscriminate. They shouldn't be a reason to ban. as you can get away with enough skill, or simply send your less skilled opponent into them. Sure there are lucky hits, but the same can be said about almost anything.

The time slowing and flipping works the same way, and while it will indeed disrupt someone, you can overcome it with skill.

The loop though is where the problem is. The same stalling effects can be done with it as could be done in say Temple. And Dialga and Palkia do indeed break the stage, Cressalia doesn't. Thus, there may be reason to ban.

i thought it was clear that palkia is ban, I'm not discussing palkia unless some brave individual wants to argue that palkia doesn't deserve a ban.

already answered the CoL stuff in a different post, i dont feel like retyping it.
-are you sayign cresselia is bannable because it doesn't destroy terrain or lasers? please explain

 

[sxiz]

I took it to mean Dialga/Palkia make the stage broken in the omgpowerfulbanhammer sense of the word. I never thought about it meaning they literally break the stage ;D

I'm all for it being CP. Dialga's tilts are just an illusion, gravity tilts with the stage and it's no different than playing with your head tilted to the left.

I personally love it with Palkia flips the stage because I just roll over and play upside down lol

 

[VietGeek]

Wait, does the Pokemon decided at the battle start guaranteed to stay there for the remainder of the battle (whole eight or so minutes)? Because if the answer is no, then the whole point of trying to make SP a CP is somewhat pointless.

EDIT: I'm guessing "yes," but the Dojo neither confirms or denies it, plus I'm not in the mode to test that out right now, but I'll probably set up an eight minute stock battle to confirm it myself should I not get a definite answer when I log back on.

 

[2.72]

OK. I've played on this stage a lot, and I love it, but it deserves a ban. Here are a few points. The first just two address a common misconception, not argue for a ban. The third and fourth are arguments.

• Hazards are avoidable:
  Cresselia's attacks are much more of a pain than the others, and basically break up fights, but anyone who plays reasonably defensively should not have major issues with these. Nonetheless, they can force players to stop comboing, or to give up a good position, and hence they do give a somewhat unfair advantage. Additionally, they can make the match a bit swingy because they KO so easily and avoiding them is non-trivial, if not really challenging. In my opinion, these are much more likely than the big lasers to get a ban, but the stage deserves at least a shot first. I think that these alone might make the stage counterpick-legal but not neutral.
• Big bad lasers of DOOM!
  Vertical lasers are easily avoided. I'm not even going to say more about these. Horizontal lasers are not at all easily avoided in the death chamber. All but the slowest characters can make it to the edge in time if they react immediately, but in practice you can never react immediately. A slow character engaged in combat near the center, even if they try to extricate themselves as quickly as possible, will probably get hit. This is where two more techniques come in. First, you can just shield the lasers. They might look terribly powerful, but they will not break your shield unless it is very weak to begin with. If your shield is that weak, just head upstream (the way the laser comes from), and you will survive. Important: DO NOT TECH IMMEDIATELY. You will most likely die if you do, because teching does not sufficiently halt the momentum perpendicular to the surface. If you must tech at all, hold off a bit to do it. You will take a fair amount of damage, but the lasers will not KO. Verdict: they are a pain sometimes, but rarely result in damage and almost never a KO. Proper response is almost trivial once you figure out how to handle these. Once again, these are likely to produce a knee-jerk "BAN!" reaction because they are so dramatic, but I think that they are fine for a counterpick-legal level.
• The Cave of Life:
  This is the real clincher. Try playing someone who is really defensive in the lower part of the level. If competent, they will stay near the center of the cave. This absolutely should result in a ban. If the defensive player can tech, they can live for a long, long time. I readily manage upwards of 250% without trying (literally) and I can't tech very well, and I suspect that this will be almost as bad as Hyrule Temple in terms of long, drawn-out games where people die only when they miss a tech. Keep in mind that the lasers don't really help. They don't kill if you know how to handle them. Likewise, the fact that the roof is partially destroyed might potentially save this, except that people still survive very long with it gone, and it is easy to just act evasive until it returns, and it isn't destroyed if Cresselia appears. Verdict: ban.
• The Loop:
  This is the nail in the coffin for me. This stage has the most extreme example I have seen yet of a loop such that, if a fast character just runs around, they can avoid combat indefinitely. The hazards are avoidable enough that they might create minor openings, but even that is questionable. In practice, I normally have no issues running away for the large majority of a match as Diddy. Note that the loop just shrinks when the roof is damaged, but it still exists and even very small loops (a la Onett in Melee) allow ridiculous stall tactics. Verdict: ban.
• Camping:
  It is very difficult to attack someone on the lower part of the stage from above. Careful use of your air dodge can, in my experience, give you a fighting chance. I'm not sure how big of a deal this will be, but is has potential to be as campy as Venom in melee, which was indeed worthy of a ban. Verdict: not enough evidence.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Wait, does the Pokemon decided at the battle start guaranteed to stay there for the remainder of the battle (whole eight or so minutes)? Because if the answer is no, then the whole point of trying to make SP a CP is somewhat pointless.

EDIT: I'm guessing "yes," but the Dojo neither confirms or denies it, plus I'm not in the mode to test that out right now, but I'll probably set up an eight minute stock battle to confirm it myself should I not get a definite answer when I log back on.

you're guessing is correct, im guessing you've never played on the stage before. Believe me, if it did change i would have noted that (if there was a pattern of some sort), but most likely this topic wouldn't exist if that were the case.

did i beat your next login?

 

[M.K]

I love to play on wack-o stages, but Spear Pillar is just...annoying. The stage flips, the gravity shifts, the random crescents flying around, it's all too insane. I wouldn't mind it being counterpick, but I can't see ANY one picking it to their advantage!

 

[betterthanbonds9]

OK. I've played on this stage a lot, and I love it, but it deserves a ban. Here are a few points. The first just two address a common misconception, not argue for a ban. The third and fourth are arguments.

• Hazards are avoidable:
  Cresselia's attacks are much more of a pain than the others, and basically break up fights, but anyone who plays reasonably defensively should not have major issues with these. Nonetheless, they can force players to stop comboing, or to give up a good position, and hence they do give a somewhat unfair advantage. Additionally, they can make the match a bit swingy because they KO so easily and avoiding them is non-trivial, if not really challenging. In my opinion, these are much more likely than the big lasers to get a ban, but the stage deserves at least a shot first. I think that these alone might make the stage counterpick-legal but not neutral.

• 
  
  wait, which cresents are you talking about, i have never been hit (unless on purpose to figure out how much damage it did) by the big pink one, if you're talking about the rapid fire ones, i have found that it is far more dodgable than you think it is. The first person it attacks is somewhat random (it's pretty easy to see who is getting attacked first) then after than each cresent switch to the other player. it's only challenging to avoid if you dont know how to run or dodge once then run. Actually, the difficulty to avoid these helps prove why 2 or 3 of your other points are handled even when cresselia is on the stage.
  
  

  [*]Big bad lasers of DOOM!
  Vertical lasers are easily avoided. I'm not even going to say more about these. Horizontal lasers are not at all easily avoided in the death chamber. All but the slowest characters can make it to the edge in time if they react immediately, but in practice you can never react immediately. A slow character engaged in combat near the center, even if they try to extricate themselves as quickly as possible, will probably get hit. This is where two more techniques come in. First, you can just shield the lasers. They might look terribly powerful, but they will not break your shield unless it is very weak to begin with. If your shield is that weak, just head upstream (the way the laser comes from), and you will survive. Important: DO NOT TECH IMMEDIATELY. You will most likely die if you do, because teching does not sufficiently halt the momentum perpendicular to the surface. If you must tech at all, hold off a bit to do it. You will take a fair amount of damage, but the lasers will not KO. Verdict: they are a pain sometimes, but rarely result in damage and almost never a KO. Proper response is almost trivial once you figure out how to handle these. Once again, these are likely to produce a knee-jerk "BAN!" reaction because they are so dramatic, but I think that they are fine for a counterpick-legal level.

  lol, until the end when you said it was fine for a counterpick level i thought you were going to say they were OP. Honestly, the part about the laser being difficult to avoid if you're slow just proves what a CP is supposed to do, give an advantage, but not an un-overcomable one to the chooser. And as you've shown, it is still avoidable if your shield is semi depleted (at least you shouldn't die).
  
  

  [*]The Cave of Life:
  This is the real clincher. Try playing someone who is really defensive in the lower part of the level. If competent, they will stay near the center of the cave. This absolutely should result in a ban. If the defensive player can tech, they can live for a long, long time. I readily manage upwards of 250% without trying (literally) and I can't tech very well, and I suspect that this will be almost as bad as Hyrule Temple in terms of long, drawn-out games where people die only when they miss a tech. Keep in mind that the lasers don't really help. They don't kill if you know how to handle them. Likewise, the fact that the roof is partially destroyed might potentially save this, except that people still survive very long with it gone, and it is easy to just act evasive until it returns, and it isn't destroyed if Cresselia appears. Verdict: ban.

  the laser does help, because it changes the tactic of the tech-er instanly. No longer can he stay down there, it's actually worth it for the opponent to make him take the shot because at the time you're at 170% you shouldnt' be surviving the laser no matter where you are. And that's not to mention the chaos caused by vertical lasers, making the tech-er (looks too much like teacher otherwise) stop going in a direction not by choice. And cresselia's cresents can all hit the tech-er no matter what attack she uses, the rapid fire hit a link i was playing against in training mode, which means it's possible at least (no, i haven't tested it with other characters because it's hard to test and i have too much hw atm). Yes no roof helps, believe me, it's a problem, but it's nowhere near temple. Temple had a place for you to go if hit sideways and was almost impossible to be killed on to the left, which wasn't much better than the right.
  
  

  [*]The Loop:
  This is the nail in the coffin for me. This stage has the most extreme example I have seen yet of a loop such that, if a fast character just runs around, they can avoid combat indefinitely. The hazards are avoidable enough that they might create minor openings, but even that is questionable. In practice, I normally have no issues running away for the large majority of a match as Diddy. Note that the loop just shrinks when the roof is damaged, but it still exists and even very small loops (a la Onett in Melee) allow ridiculous stall tactics. Verdict: ban.

  gotta agree that the potential for the loop exists, but you mentioned yourself the difficulty of cresselia's cresents and just running willly nilly through them, the lasers can really eff up a strategy as well, but there really is no argument against the potential of this in tourney games, but i do feel it needs to be tested in a couple tournaments even on a once-a-match limit and only for the first round situation. If it doesn't pass through that, then there really is nothing i can say about this.
  
  

  [*]Camping:
  It is very difficult to attack someone on the lower part of the stage from above. Careful use of your air dodge can, in my experience, give you a fighting chance. I'm not sure how big of a deal this will be, but is has potential to be as campy as Venom in melee, which was indeed worthy of a ban. Verdict: not enough evidence.

I wasn't here for the melee discussion on venom....plus i hated that stage for the concept, but I'll do my best to explain the difference. Thought venom was banned for fox's infinite combo with his waveshine first, and the camping and the cave area were second. Whatever, basically by now im really lazy and don't feel like retyping the stuff ive said about the hazards actually helping a stage that, were it not for hazards would be taking a one-way ticket to banville with warioware sitting next to it.

wasn't ven

 

[betterthanbonds9]

I love to play on wack-o stages, but Spear Pillar is just...annoying. The stage flips, the gravity shifts, the random crescents flying around, it's all too insane. I wouldn't mind it being counterpick, but I can't see ANY one picking it to their advantage!

that's palkia, i dont care for that pink monstrosity, the cresents aren't random. It actually frightens me that the stage flipping keeps you still in mind for it being CP. I draw the line at the flipping and the x-axis shift of palkia's.

people should read at least some of the original post if they are going to respond....

 

[MalcolmM]

i really do love this stage...but i find it too chaotic for even a conuter pick. you found the hazards easily avoidable because u werent amidst combat..u were testing the stage. if both players r down in the cave fighting...chances r they arent going to dodge the giant laser coming in from the side.

 

[VietGeek]

you're guessing is correct, im guessing you've never played on the stage before. Believe me, if it did change i would have noted that (if there was a pattern of some sort), but most likely this topic wouldn't exist if that were the case.

did i beat your next login?

Yes you did. By the way, I have played Spear Pillar, but the battles never lasted long enough for me to know if it changes (since the Pokemon disappear a little bit about halfway through the battle [3-ish minutes or so]), but the match is usually done by then unless someone wanted to camp out at the Cave of Life.

I'll probably further test the Dialga/Cresselia stage in a mini-Brawl tournament I'm throwing this Friday at my school. It's a beautiful stage, but we'll see how much we the players can control all the mayhem it causes.

So yeah, I'll probably post back any complaints or problems I heard or saw. Should that be good?

 

[Me14k]

It forms circle around the stage...

This means the faster character will win.

This is the same reason for great bay being banned in melee.

/close thread.

GG.

 

[TehBo49]

Yeah, you can avoid the lasers & crescents but only if your paying attention to them. In reality, you'll be more focused on the actual match. Two players fighting in the Cave of Life will never see the lasers coming at them. The loop means a speed character with a stock advantage can run around the stage until time runs out & infinite wall techs in the Cave of Life lets characters live forever. Therefore, the stage is banned.

 

[Pubik Vengeance]

I would sort of like if SP was a counter-pick, but at the same time I understand why a lot of people would be against it.

I wouldn't be too bothered if it was or was not a counter-pick.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Yes you did. By the way, I have played Spear Pillar, but the battles never lasted long enough for me to know if it changes (since the Pokemon disappear a little bit about halfway through the battle [3-ish minutes or so]), but the match is usually done by then unless someone wanted to camp out at the Cave of Life.

I'll probably further test the Dialga/Cresselia stage in a mini-Brawl tournament I'm throwing this Friday at my school. It's a beautiful stage, but we'll see how much we the players can control all the mayhem it causes.

So yeah, I'll probably post back any complaints or problems I heard or saw. Should that be good?

sounds good, so far the most ive managed down there was ~200% (unlike temple, which was averaging the max damage bonus)

It forms circle around the stage...

This means the faster character will win.

This is the same reason for great bay being banned in melee.

great bay also had the easy to kill off of ledge and tingle (yeah, that's a reason for ban). Great bay did NOT have a laser that crossed out the entire bottom half or cresents and dialga that block off the top....

Yeah, you can avoid the lasers & crescents but only if your paying attention to them. In reality, you'll be more focused on the actual match. Two players fighting in the Cave of Life will never see the lasers coming at them. The loop means a speed character with a stock advantage can run around the stage until time runs out & infinite wall techs in the Cave of Life lets characters live forever. Therefore, the stage is banned.

I've been able to as lucario, uptoss my opponent, run towards the edge, up-b bend to the ledge, go on top, and survive while my opponent died. Similarly, i have air dodged the pink cresent regularly while fighting and have had time to run to the bottom when cressy uses rapid fire. The loop would work a lot better if it didn't keep getting destroyed, allowing for the other player to catch up

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Yeah, you can avoid the lasers & crescents but only if your paying attention to them. In reality, you'll be more focused on the actual match. Two players fighting in the Cave of Life will never see the lasers coming at them. The loop means a speed character with a stock advantage can run around the stage until time runs out & infinite wall techs in the Cave of Life lets characters live forever. Therefore, the stage is banned.

True.
The warning is a series of tiny lights that start from where the attack is coming from and ends where the beam is going to. If your brawl is on the opposite of that warning, you don't get a lot of time to escape. Most characters don't have enough time to escape the beam if they are on the other side, causing 20-60% damage to both fighters. Also, if you trip, tou are trapped.
I was Peach in All-Star mode when I fought on Spear Pillar. I KO'd Pikachu, Jigglypuff, and the Trainer's Pokemon. I went to KO Lucario off the screen when he went to the bottom of the stage. He dodged into the corner. Then a beam attack was being readied on the other side. When I saw the warning, I tried to jump to the top, but Peach didn't escape in time. Her lower body was caught. You can't hang on the edge to avoid damage either. I tried many times and got zapped every time by the hitbox that has knockback.
This also becomes a problem with Cressida's attacks as they can go through walls and slice both of you.

 

[Chaosblade77]

I call ban.

I understand the arguments for the stage, but the fact is even with the ability to tell which Pokemon the stage is going to have from the stage selection (I still haven't seen verification you can do this, and I believe this is what was mentioned) it doesn't really save it from being banned.

Palkia is out by default so I won't even bother with that one.

Dialga still allows for somewhat easy looping. The beams can obstruct the loop, but they don't last long enough or have a big enough impact to totally stop the person. His attack is also not too terribly hard to avoid if you are paying attention, as you said yourself if you pay attention to the Pokemon in the background you can almost always avoid the attacks. As for the floor/ceiling falling, that wouldn't be enough to obstruct the loop if the player running had even the slightest idea what they were doing.

Cresselia prevents looping, but it's attacks can be a huge interference on the gameplay. Say you and your opponent are in the bottom killing each other, as you probably would be because of the ceiling that won't be destroyed, and he fires an attack down there. Both players have to go out of their way to escape, and it's likely that both will be at high percentages and the attack will kill them if they get hit.

I think if some of the attacks or stage interferences work a bit differently, then the stage could be a counterpick, but with how it works with the individual Pokemon, only Cresselia allows for SOME counterpicking potential, but that just depends on how you look at the ceilings on the bottom. You can't really camp there because of it's attacks, but unlike the other two it's attacks interfere a lot more and it would be very common for the player with control of the match to lose it because of his attacks, whether they get hit or not.

 

[MarthSephirothfan]

It's one of my favorite stages, but in Super Smash Brothers Melee rules, correct me if I am mistaken, weren't stages that could damage the character banned? So wouldn't they continue that trend with Brawl.

 

[MetaKnight63]

I like playing on SP. You can't really "camp" out anywhere, and whoever does that is a coward! (No offense to anybody, that's my opinion.)

Palkia should be banned b/c I get turned around easily.

 

[Shiny Ivysaur]

Even still, the tournament scene is too uptight to let you reset if you get Palkia. The warnings are too subtle, and without a surefire way of never getting Palkia, the stage, IMO, should be banned.

 

[Marthgreil]

Even still, the tournament scene is too uptight to let you reset if you get Palkia. The warnings are too subtle, and without a surefire way of never getting Palkia, the stage, IMO, should be banned.

Agreed. Palkia alone is a pain. Now add Dialgo jumpping off his platform and his lasers and you have a luck based game. No to mention the freakin' turning upside-down.

 

[verditude]

It's one of my favorite stages, but in Super Smash Brothers Melee rules, correct me if I am mistaken, weren't stages that could damage the character banned? So wouldn't they continue that trend with Brawl.

Not all of them; Corneria, Brinstar, and Green Greens were counterpicks in Melee.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

True.
The warning is a series of tiny lights that start from where the attack is coming from and ends where the beam is going to. If your brawl is on the opposite of that warning, you don't get a lot of time to escape. Most characters don't have enough time to escape the beam if they are on the other side, causing 20-60% damage to both fighters. Also, if you trip, tou are trapped.
I was Peach in All-Star mode when I fought on Spear Pillar. I KO'd Pikachu, Jigglypuff, and the Trainer's Pokemon. I went to KO Lucario off the screen when he went to the bottom of the stage. He dodged into the corner. Then a beam attack was being readied on the other side. When I saw the warning, I tried to jump to the top, but Peach didn't escape in time. Her lower body was caught. You can't hang on the edge to avoid damage either. I tried many times and got zapped every time by the hitbox that has knockback.
This also becomes a problem with Cressida's attacks as they can go through walls and slice both of you.

it's 27% >_> seriously, you have no idea how many of those beams i jumped into to figure that out. Sucks for you in all-star mode, but quite frankly peach would be one of the characters that, if this stage were CP, i'd choose it against her. And yes, the bottom beam does have a weird hitbox thing at the end, which is easily avoided if you do the let go-jump-grab move off the ledge....... And as i mentioned, Cresselia's attacks NEED to be like that in order to prevent camping, CoL, loop, etc.

frankly i think this stage is about 75-85% chance of being banned even with only Dialga/Cresselia, but i still think it deserves at least an initial shot at CP.

about the pain of restarting: it's about 25 seconds if you're slow with it, the only thing you have to look out for is the pink background. Out of my 50 trials, 4 times did palkia appear twice in a row, once 3 times. It just isn't likely to happen to an extent that would waste much time at all.