Sonic

[The Pizza Guy]

So while I was watching Gamexplain's video on Luigi, and this Twitter post of Palutena & Sonic came up (kinda distasteful):
https://twitter.com/Yoshi1up/status/514524262716039168/photo/1
This is Smash Bros being Smash Bros with it's wonky animations. I'm sure this happens with other characters like Ganondorf or Rosalina since they're tall.

LOL!
Ladies just can't resist that yellow palette!
Amy Rose disapproves.

 

[Unkown Hero]

What Yellow alt heh heh

Jokes aside, that picture is just, no, no, NO

*closes laptop, puts sonic 06 in it, smashes it with hammer, blows it up with bomb, sends it to the sun*

 

[ShadowLink84]

I know nothing about MK X as I've never enjoyed Mortal Kombat so I can't offer any contribution to that aspect of the discussion.

IN MK:X, you are given 3 different variants of each character.
FOr example, sub zero gets ice weapons in one, ice clones he can throw in another, and enhanced ice projectiles in another.
Only a few moves change, but it changes a matchup entirely because now your options are completely different.

However, just because there are more options doesn't inherently give it more depth. GaW has a custom special where his hammer is always either a 9 or a 1 (iirc). That's not deep. That's just silly. I'm sure not every custom move is as extreme as this, but there's going to be a fair amount of testing involved to determine if having the custom option available is worthwhile.

Actually it is, because now you need to deal with a GnW who can possibly homerun bat you with a side B.
What do you do? you approach him more safely, or you may play a bit more risky because of the changes to his abilities.
The depth doesn't come from the move itself, that is a shallow method of viewing it, the depth comes from the options that they provide and how the opponent must now deal with it.

In anycase, i found a video with the whole custom moveset list I'll post it here.

Custom moves

Anyone too lazy

Neutral B: Same as we know it.
Neutral B #2: fires straight down.
Neutral B #3: Anti-air ariant of the homing attack

Side B: Same we know it.
Side B #2: Has a pop. Landing on someone with the pop slams them into the ground.
Side B #3: You're on FIYAH! Removes the pop, has a slightly higher hitstun

Down B: Regular
DOwn B #2: Multihitting variant, seems to do more damage?
down B #3: Vortex while charging.

Up B: Regular spring
Up B #2: Double spring
Up b #3: You get a hitbox during the spring jump, rather than only being able to hit with the spring.


That would be it.

Neutral B #2: Seems useless? not sure, might bounce straight up with no recovery time maybe?

 

[Camalange]

I still defend that the act of adding options alone doesn't inherently add depth.

It offers POTENTIAL depth. Not INHERENT depth.

If changes are mild and offer slight variants in playstyle preference, then yes. There are certainly enough custom movesets where this appears to be the case... But if you're saying that giving a character a far more consistent OHKO option in addition to whatever tools this character could possibly already have to utilize it to a degree that gives an obviously unbalanced advantage, then no.

If I added "Gun" to "Rock, Paper, Scissors" and "Gun" beats all other options, then that doesn't add more depth. It changes the initial 3 options to 4, but all it does is void the past 3 options and leaves you with only 1 viable strategy.

Clearly Smash has a lot more complexities than this and I think there are enough custom moves that offer varied tools to fit preferences rather than being objectively better.

Again, I'm not saying this is the case for the entire game and I still continue to express support in exploring these options… But I don't think it's going to be as cut-and-dry as embracing them with wide open arms.

On a slightly different tangent, I'm wondering if we had a case similar to MK in Brawl for Smash 4… If instead of outright banning a character, we just changed the custom moves to ones that are possibly worse than what is given in attempt balance it out… A funny thought… I wonder if we could ever get to a point where the community could agree to something like that.

 

[infomon]

It worries me. If we had custom moves in Brawl, the better variant of MK's tornado would have been banned early-on in the game's life. But MK wasn't over-powered because of his tornado, that's something you can actually get around in high-level play. Unless maybe you're Bowser? But I don't think it's right for us to arbitrarily balance the game around our temporary character/metagame whims. MK was a problem for the character as a whole, his full general moveset, his tilts and smashes and up-B (!) etc. And even then, his ban-worthiness is questionable.

If you ban stuff too early, you cut the metagame from learning how to deal with things that aren't actually imbalanced, and we end up banning all kinds of silly stuff simply because people are bad at dealing with it and don't like it.

If a custom move is super over-powered/broken (e.g. infinite dimensional-cape glitch IMO), then we can ban it. But if a character is really good, I don't think we should use custom-move bans to try and nerf them. Either ban the character, or don't. Character balance is not what our rulesets should try to achieve.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I
On a slightly different tangent, I'm wondering if we had a case similar to MK in Brawl for Smash 4… If instead of outright banning a character, we just changed the custom moves to ones that are possibly worse than what is given in attempt balance it out… A funny thought… I wonder if we could ever get to a point where the community could agree to something like that.

MK would nver have been banned just like how it was when Brawl was still a thing. The smash community does not like banning characters, ever, they would rather ban everything except a character.

Which is ridiculous.

 

[Camalange]

words

MK would nver have been banned just like how it was when Brawl was still a thing. The smash community does not like banning characters, ever, they would rather ban everything except a character.

Which is ridiculous.

This all seems right.

It was just a thought I found interesting.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I think I saw a glitch of one of Yoshi's up B variants which provided infinite stalling. It's not like the move would be banned, just improper uses for it. I think it's unhealthy to ban anything, or even talk of it, especially before the game is released.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

So while I was watching Gamexplain's video on Luigi, and this Twitter post of Palutena & Sonic came up (kinda distasteful for some hardcore fans, funny to me):
https://twitter.com/Yoshi1up/status/514524262716039168/photo/1
This is Smash Bros being Smash Bros with it's wonky animations. I'm sure this happens with other characters like Ganondorf or Rosalina since they're tall.

Well, I'm speechless.

 

[BSP]

So I watched a random match with Sonic and saw Uthrow KO on YI Brawl under 150% on Greninja

Might have to give him another shot this go around.

 

[Espy Rose]

So you saw Puffster's crappy Sonic too?

 

[Camalange]

(spin)shots fired

 

[Kinzer]

Rev up those Spin Charges, 'cause I sure am hungry for some drama!

 

[ShadowLink84]

Oh sugar honey ice tea!
Puff called out as a bad sonic!

 

[WedginatorX]

Got a 2Ds now and i'm going to get smash so yeah that's a thing.
If Sonic is as good as everyone is preaching I'll hopefully be focusing on this game over marvel.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Sonic is, according to win % statistics, quite up there in this "tier list": http://game8.jp/matome/14157

Spoiler

 

[Mr. Johan]

So how's it feel knowing we're all now high-tier whores for the time being?

 

[Espy Rose]

Feels like this-game-just-came-out-so-every-list-is-uninformed-and-ignorant.

 

[The Pizza Guy]

Yoshi A tier?
Palutena E tier?
Captain Falcon upper mid- oh wait that's exactly what I expected from him this time around.
Sure it's just early metagame, but B tier is a pretty good start for Sonic. Definitely better than his brawl debut placement of 33rd that's for sure.

 

[XLR8TION]

Lol a tier list from the 3ds version...yea ok.

 

[infomon]

sonic for bawww tier.

honestly I wanted sonic to be good soooooo much in bawrl, I was sooo mad he was such garbz

now I kinda want him to stay bad, because sonic as the new fox sounds really, really frustrating for everyone lol

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I'd like Sonic to stay that high. Too bad Jiggs isn't that high

 

[ROOOOY!]

Uhh..can you download at midnight? IDK. But the idea of starting my owning steak 5/6/timezonesarestupid hours before the majority of you is so A1

Also the idea of m2k maining sonic is as far detatched as I am from attractive single women. Not that I'd want everyone flocking to sonic. My impression from the half assed efforts I've made to keep up to date anyway is that characters seem pretty balanced this time around. As balanced as fighting games can be anyways.

 

[Espy Rose]

Don't worry Roy. I won't be on the Sonic scene until he WiiU version comes out. I'm gonna be 1-2 months behind.

 

[Camalange]

espy noooooooooooooo...

...ow it's my time to shine!

 

[Kinzer]

Apparently the game got a patch update.

Anyone got a changelog? I can't find it.

 

[*JuriHan*]

Sonic is, according to win % statistics, quite up there in this "tier list": http://game8.jp/matome/14157

Spoiler

Sonic being top 10?!

My reaction:

that would be pretty awesome!

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Okay, WTF

You can't jump out of a SDR if it's after an ASC or ASD, even if you didn't use your double jump.

Also, Sonic's voice sucks

 

[infomon]

wat 4srs????

urkkkkkk to busy with workkkkkkk can't pick up my copy whyyyyyyy

am grown-up nowz

 

[Sonic Orochi]

It's 3 a.m. here and I'm analyzing Sonic's new moveset. ohgodwhy

I'll hit the sack soon 'cause I got work in the morning as well

 

[Mr. Johan]

Won my local Gamestop tournament tonight with Robin and Sonic. Had to go through 8 Rounds of Loser's Bracket, but that was a blast. Loser's Bracket was No Items, so I got a good feel on how Sonic works from all those matches.

Yoshi matchup sucks.

 

[Camalange]

Played with Trent and Dark.Pch. I foresee the Peach match-up to unfold very much so the same way as Brawl. I also see Rosalina & Luma being a problem. Mostly Luma. Rosalina's not so bad.

In non-Sonic related news I think Pac-Man has what it takes.

Trying to experience the whole game and get comfortable with the new characters as well. Rosalina & Luma confuse me because I can't tell half the time what Luma is up to and suddenly I am dead.

urkkkkkk to busy with workkkkkkk can't pick up my copy whyyyyyyy

am grown-up nowz

I'm the grown-up who called off work for today.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

Nair feels like a safer uair to me now. Landing with nair pops opponents up for jabs at low % and grabs at mid % and for spring to uair at high % on soft hit. That and the dair meteor smash seems to come out only during the initial frames of sonic flying downward.

Although sonic absolutely destroys little mac. Bthrow > bair = dead little mac at 25%

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

So, I'll be picking this up tomorrow. I'm not seeing a friend code thing to play each other yet on the Sonic boards. Wtf guys.

Edit: If the demo is any sign, I'm going to get pissed on because I'm absolutely trash with these controls. I find it so hard to do simple things like smash attacks lol.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

Sonic can quadruple Uair string people off the top if you spring from the ground uair, then land back on the bring uair jump uair then spring uair. I Ko'd a luigi earlier in tournament doing this

 

[ShadowLink84]

Sonic has decent kill move options now.
Its scary

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

We'll see. Lets check in 6 months from now on the Wii-U and see if they're still viable options. I'm holding off any early praise, as feelings for most characters will most likely be substantially different later on.

 

[Espy Rose]

Have some friends who have the game. Played it most of tonight. Loving Sonic.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

These controls are so foreign to me lol. I wish I could use Sonic when setting up custom controls. Would make things a lot easier for me.

 

[Kinzer]

These controls are so foreign to me lol. I wish I could use Sonic when setting up custom controls. Would make things a lot easier for me.

You actually can, though. Just gotta go Games & More > Options > Controls.

I have it set up right now like if I were playing a Megaman X game. Left trigger is set up for Shield, Y is Attack, X is Special, A and B are both jump, and I never use the right trigger but it's Grab.

It's pretty comfortable when the majority of your childhood was spent with platformers.

But hey, I can't be assed to play Megaman. It's not the same if I can't hold my charge while moving around.