Sonic+ ~UPDATED OP 11/15/09~

[cobaltblue]

Put the fear of spring in him. Do it enough times and falcon will either start recovering high or attempt to falcon drive over it. Either way you get a gimp or a force him into a known position. This is especially delightful as he won't even try to hang off the edge for fear of being stage gimped by it.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I just dair cause dair is beast

 

[yami_sora]

I just dair cause dair is beast

You sweet spot with that thing and it's lethal. Especially now that the boundaries are smaller.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

I hope someone here can take over the thread, possibly put up a guide in the OP and such

 

[yami_sora]

I'm considering it, and I will try to get some matchup knowledge listed as well. This current set still has some kinks to iron out though, so I'm sort of laying low until everything is finalized.

 

[cobaltblue]

Hey yami or Bionic, what is this I hear about Sonic's nair being tweaked? You guys know anything about it before I start raising the wtf flag?

 

[GHNeko]

Sonic+ is the reincarnation of Melee Fox via throws and normals. Only specials between the two are dramatically different.

 

[cobaltblue]

Sonic+ is the reincarnation of Melee Fox via throws and normals. Only specials between the two are dramatically different.

I didn't realize Sonic+ had hard to DI out of uair chains, drill attacks into uair, shines to stall his fall, or moves that he can combo into KOs. O and don't forget the ability to force you to approach coupled with his decent priority and dash dance shinagains.

And throws? Fthrow is a mix up that hitstun will usually wear off before you can do anything, uthrow is good for strings at early perents but anyone that has ever played sonic even once knows to DI to the side to avoid a fatel uair, bthrow is a slightly better fthrow usually reserved for getting them off the stage for gimp time, and dthrow can result in you being punished.

I want to be open minded here but you didn't give much in specifics as stating "reincarnation of melee fox" leads me to believe that he has moves that he can combo into ko chains. And that really isn't the case as fsmash is something you land on perdictiong/feinting the opponent, same with dsmash, usmash has been broken (bad way) in B+ although its been fixed a little bit in 7.0, uair isn't meeting that fox criteria, which leaves nair that can be chained by spindash->nair.

 

[GHNeko]

I forgot to add the part about lacking a shine and a gun. :V

Melee Fox's Fthrow and Bthrow are similar to how Sonic+'s function.

The difficulty of DIing out of Sonic+'s Uair isnt as hard as doing that for Melee Fox's but it isnt a Piece of Cake. That and you can still chain uairs and Uthrow > Uair is still legit to an okay percent even though the percents at which it's no longer successful is significantly lower than Melee Fox though that's just a blanket fact. X > Y will stop working if percents get high enough and that applies to practically everyone, so lol @ that. Not sure what you mean by "drill attacks into uair"

Mainly what I meant by my statement was simply by how similar their throws and normals were. V:

 

[Dark Sonic]

how so?

Fox's smashes function very differently, Fox's d-tilt and uptilt are very different, Fox's bair, fair, and dair are very different.

So out of all of their normals, only nair, uair, jab, and f-tilt could be called similar.

 

[yami_sora]

Hey yami or Bionic, what is this I hear about Sonic's nair being tweaked? You guys know anything about it before I start raising the wtf flag?

From what I remember from the explanation Blind gave me is that the nair knockback angle was changed to 30 degrees from 35, I guess this is too good now so in the next patch it will be reverted back to 35.

Anyone else can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that was the change you were referring to.

 

[GHNeko]

Fox's Dsmash in comparison to Sonic's isnt all that different.

Same with usmash imo.

Fsmash sure.

Dtilt, I don't remember the use of it in melee as it wasn't used a lot. and still isnt.

Utilt...ehhhh. I've seen it used in similar ways by Sonic's in TX so I'm going off that.

Bair is pretty similar actually, in how they function.

I did forget about Dair. Fair is pretty different yeah.

 

[yami_sora]

I don't really think you can compare Sonic in B+ to Fox in Melee in too many ways. Some of their attacks are similar in utility but you make it sound as though Sonic has as many options as Fox when he definitely does not. Also, and this is just my opinion, Sonic isn't nearly as good as Fox either, regardless of comparing him to Melee Fox or Brawl+ Fox.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Sonic's uptilt is not really even comparable to Fox's uptilt. Fox's uptilt hit ridiculously far behind him and was easy to combo into. Sonic's uptilt hits ridiculously far ABOVE him (it hits ****ing platforms) and is hard to combo into because of it's lack of horizontal range. Sonic's uptilt thus ends up being a kind of anti air while Fox's is a combo move.

Sonic's d-smash is a gtfo move because it lasts a long time, comes out fast, and has little end lag. Fox's d-smash is pretty much only used for edgeguarding because HIS LEGS ARE INVINCIBLE.

Sonic's upsmash has high priority, combos well into kill percents, lasts forever, has little end lag....but has high startup lag. So comboing into Sonic's upsmash doesn't really work at kill percents like Fox's. Instead you just throw it out as an anti air (something Fox CAN do, but it's not as good in that area. It's just really easy to combo into and really good for punishing lag with it's speed)

Bair is fairly similar. Sonic uses it differently just because of his nature. He uses bair for edgeguards much farther out than Fox can go, and Sonic's bair has a better vertical hitbox so he uses it to counter ground moves (or aerials from above him) more often than Fox. His bair being slower also makes it bad for walling, unlike Fox's



So no, Sonic is nothing like melee Fox. Bad comparison is bad

 

[GHNeko]

kfein u win gosh

 

[cobaltblue]

I forgot to add the part about lacking a shine and a gun. :V

Melee Fox's Fthrow and Bthrow are similar to how Sonic+'s function.

The difficulty of DIing out of Sonic+'s Uair isnt as hard as doing that for Melee Fox's but it isnt a Piece of Cake. That and you can still chain uairs and Uthrow > Uair is still legit to an okay percent even though the percents at which it's no longer successful is significantly lower than Melee Fox though that's just a blanket fact. X > Y will stop working if percents get high enough and that applies to practically everyone, so lol @ that. Not sure what you mean by "drill attacks into uair"

Mainly what I meant by my statement was simply by how similar their throws and normals were. V:

While any move becomes easier to get out of as the percents get higher, the difference being is that sonic still has trouble linking it for KO'ing which is a (balanced) disadvantaged compared to fox who could drill->utilt->ko as needed with his.

To expand on what I mean by drill into uair, I am simply saying sonic does not have 1-800-dail-a-ko-combo like fox. Your comparsion to fox then falls flat as fox literary had techniques that once started guaranteed death or 30% dmg with practice. Which is a big counter-diction to Sonic who is still a heavy reactive character.

O and btw I mad.

From what I remember from the explanation Blind gave me is that the nair knockback angle was changed to 30 degrees from 35, I guess this is too good now so in the next patch it will be reverted back to 35.

Anyone else can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that was the change you were referring to.

Can you explain a bit more on how this will effect knock back on the strong box? As is its about a full horizontal kb move that can kill from the center of FD mario at about 130%. I'm really trying to see how the current setup is too good beyond theory crafting which the other coders seem to do sometimes.

 

[GHNeko]

i already gave up

 

[cobaltblue]

I will continue to beat you with the fury of an angry sonic nerd.

Topic:
So uh lets get some match ups started in here.

 

[yami_sora]

Can you explain a bit more on how this will effect knock back on the strong box? As is its about a full horizontal kb move that can kill from the center of FD mario at about 130%. I'm really trying to see how the current setup is too good beyond theory crafting which the other coders seem to do sometimes.

I guess it was considered too good of an edge guarding option, particularly on characters like Snake and what not, so it will be reverted back to normal. That horizontal knock back will be pushed slightly up, so it won't be as good anymore. I haven't really been abusing it now, so it won't be missed too much by me, but I guess it is a shame considering Sonic is certainly not the best character in the game. They give him something decent (albeit accidentally) and then take it away, whereas other characters could definitely use some reworking. But that's probably just me having main bias. I don't think it's a huge change either way. The short end though is that to my knowledge his nair will be slightly worse in the next patch.

 

[cobaltblue]

I have to lawl at that point about it being too good on snake. As I recall Snake can tank all of sonic's air moves except his nair. But I still see the "issue" you're explaining.

O well, what can be taken away can be given back. And if it looks like sonic's matches over the next few months look like nothing more than time out matches because its the only way he can win, this imo wouldn't be a bad tweak to give him after the period.

 

[yami_sora]

Well I hate the style of running away and just getting a time out, I want to just win the battle regularly any not be annoying. No one likes a battle like that and that's why there are quite a few people that really do not like Sonic.

 

[cobaltblue]

I'm not saying that will be the case, but I think it is what will most likely happen when money is on the line.

Sonic has come along way no doubt, but he has still remained at his core which is bait like crazy, punish the lag, and gimp when possible. I don't think this aspect of him can be gotten around without giving stupidly unfair buffs like priority and disjoints. The nair as is may have proven to be something that could give a player a reason to take the intiative rather than pray the opponent doesn't see the smash/uair coming so a ko earlier than 175% dmg can be had.

Maybe I'm just overlooking his possible set ups for kills though, but so far form my experience and watching matches they still seem to fall into high speed bait or die fights.

And since we're talking about high speed baiting and clock running, what better way to start up match up discussions with Lucario?

 

[ZeonStar]

Ive always said this, and stick to it. Characters in fighting games need to have very visible strengths in order to be good. You always see when a new fighting game comes out, the best characters are easily distinguishable right away just by seeing their great tools. Look at ganon. Right now, a random person will walk in seeing a ganon player and say, "Holy crap! Ganon is so **** strong!" and they even sometimes say he is broken at first glance, but at higher levels of play, this isnt the case.

Once a random person walks in and sees sonic play, they might give a few comments like, "Sonic is so **** annoying, hes so fast" and thats about it, but I can see that changing, now that I think sonic has gained some viability.

Right now, sonic has gained some crazy *** tools, but still has terrible priority, I dont see a problem with his nair, I mean, look at falcon, he gets a knee of death, we are really going to nerf a decent killmove he has? Its actually letting me kill my opponents without having to bait and get to 145% and upwards.

I really want to see sonic at least in the high tier state, or at least used by more people, hes always been shunned because players suspect hes a bad character. I dont think even with his new buffs he could be considered one of the best characters unless the player is really good.

 

[cobaltblue]

^Eh at this point asking for things to be changed to better him is a moot point. Its better to focus on what tools we do have, improve them, and show that sonic can be perfectly viable no matter what the stakes. If tournament results show that the average sonic player isn't killing till 150%+ and matches are either timing out (and thats with the sonic player not playing for keeps) or taking forever because said sonic player knows its easier to win by stock lead than engaging in direct combat then I hope the WBR would act accordingly with changes. Sonic being high tier shouldn't even be taken into consideration when thinking about changes.

As said above, from here on out we should talk about Sonic as if B+ can not be changed and how to maximize each match up either it be by speed tactics, vB tactics applied in new ways, or making the most out of stage counter picks. Now to continue on with Lucario tips.

1. Bait. Bait hard and fast. Lucario is slow on executing his moves, however this does not mean you should get careless as his hitboxes by aura will linger for a bit.

2. Never go for uair strings unless you are close to him. Trying to do follow ups from a distance will just get you a dair to the face.

I'll add more later, tired.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

Back in the thread again yai :3

Lucario, eh I don't really know any good ones here 'cuz everyone here doesn't play him (bores everyone srsly)
But anyway, to my application against Lucario:

Early phase: (0%) This should be to your advantage since you can easily have him off the stage with a throw, in this phase, try to gimp as EARLY as you can, this has the obvious benefit of a stock gap, now keep harassing him with spring when he tries to recover, eventually friggin pray he screws up with his UpB. (if the Pro Lucario isn't darn good I guess or "He haz to screw up at least f'ing once I just know it >.<")

Mid phase: (<45%) if earlyphase failed, baiting is the 2nd best option as its easy to take advantage of his lag, idk what much to do except try taking advantage of B+ momentum, run to him like from 1/2 of FD, then go with SH Nair, it has a high chance to hit, or you could do it off range and attempt a dtilt, followed by whatever move. At this point it's a bit harder to get him offstage, I recommend doing ccancelled running Dsmashes.

Note: Aerial game isn't very strong against Lucario, so keep it at a bare minimum
I only recommend Run(+momentum) to SH Nair, its sex kick-ness makes it a viable tool.
(hypothesizing, SH bair when Lucario approaches/ dash attacks might work, MIGHT)

Late phase: (<80) Seems you've screwed up killing him from the first two phases, if you're high up in %, go defensive, I recommend to keep poking. Be careful of Lucario's moves that have a barely noticeable hitbox still present, at this point he can kill you once you screw up. Same as Mid phase, try using the running Dsmash again, if he gets offstage no matter how far, try landing a Spring in safe range (Sonic has a vertical advantage over Lucario with no move other than uair so give it a shot)


No don't throw pie at me >.< I haven't met any good Lucarios here so just see if these work to your favor.

 

[yami_sora]

You make it sound like pie is a bad thing! Anyways, I'm holding off until the next patch is released before I discuss stuff because I want it to all be accurate.

 

[Veril]

atm The only thing that'll change in the next patch is that nair won't have a 20° angle like it does now. Seriously, that was a coding error.

I'd like to bring up your up-smash. Since people have actually complained to me about it being too good and I disagree.

It hits frame 19, this is a moderately fast smash that can punish airdodges or spacing mistakes with a read. Light characters can fall out without any DI if they aren't hit dead center. Even if this happens, the iasa is so soon that you can actually tech chase characters who have fallen out. With Jiggs for example, if they escape and miss the tech you can jab to force a getup and f-smash. If they tech its an opportunity to tech-chase into a grab.

If they don't escape, or are a heavy/fatty the move is extremely powerful as a kill move. More powerful than Zelda's up-smash actually (somewhat less powerful than Fox's up-smash). Without DI it kills from 71-107 (Jiggs to DK) off the top on FD.

 

[cobaltblue]

atm The only thing that'll change in the next patch is that nair won't have a 20° angle like it does now. Seriously, that was a coding error.

I'd like to bring up your up-smash. Since people have actually complained to me about it being too good and I disagree.

It hits frame 19, this is a moderately fast smash that can punish airdodges or spacing mistakes with a read. Light characters can fall out without any DI if they aren't hit dead center. Even if this happens, the iasa is so soon that you can actually tech chase characters who have fallen out. With Jiggs for example, if they escape and miss the tech you can jab to force a getup and f-smash. If they tech its an opportunity to tech-chase into a grab.

If they don't escape, or are a heavy/fatty the move is extremely powerful as a kill move. More powerful than Zelda's up-smash actually (somewhat less powerful than Fox's up-smash). Without DI it kills from 71-107 (Jiggs to DK) off the top on FD.

I'm really trying to keep the post from derailing into sonic needs (insert) buff. But who that isn't a scrub is complaining about up-smash being too good? Please tell me that these aren't fellow coders or tournament level players.

 

[CountKaiser]

Wait, 19 frames is moderately fast? You're kidding, right?

 

[JCaesar]

Wait, 19 frames is moderately fast? You're kidding, right?

I don't think the speed matters all that much when 9 times out of 10 you will be using it while running to punish something. It may not be fast enough to do OOS but it's certainly fast enough to do that. Especially considering it's Sonic.

Thank god you can randomly fall out of it or else this would be Zelda's old usmash on steroids, on a character actually fast enough to catch anyone trying to get back to the ground.

 

[yami_sora]

Yeah, I know about the complaints about the up-smash. OBM and I went over it in great detail and neither of us thinks it's too good. Sure it's powerful, real powerful, but it is not easy to land that final hit at all. It requires both good timing on Sonic's end and a bad situation for your opponent. The move isn't too good, just because you sometimes randomly get caught in it every once and a while or Sonic spaces it right in a good situation doesn't make it too good. Fox's upsmash is similar in utility and function and is much better, easier to sweet spot, and does 17% as opposed to Sonic's 12%, and that's only if the entire upsmash connects.

I'm not gonna ask for Sonic buffs but at the same time I'm gonna ask that he not get nerfed either. The nair fix is fine, but nothing else is wrong with Sonic at all.

 

[cobaltblue]

I don't think the speed matters all that much when 9 times out of 10 you will be using it while running to punish something. It may not be fast enough to do OOS but it's certainly fast enough to do that. Especially considering it's Sonic.

Thank god you can randomly fall out of it or else this would be Zelda's old usmash on steroids, on a character actually fast enough to catch anyone trying to get back to the ground.

The upsmash up until 6.0 did not randomly release people on hit. And before that nobody complained about it being too good or getting stomped by it. The move is good as an anti air, comes out at a decent when spacing but with sonic's priority due to his hit boxes being near his hurt boxes it balanced itself out. If someone were getting stomped by this than either the sonic player was reading them like a book or that player needs to spice up their play style and not run head first in everything sonic throws out thinking every move of his is weak as dirt.

As for the rest I agree with Yama. Sonic is viable which was all that was asked and imo I think that criteria has been met; nair nerf correction or not.

 

[Veril]

People autoescaped even in vBrawl. "credit to Bio for informing me of that at Pound 4"

Way to not know your own character.


I specifically said I did not believe the up-smash needed to be changed. Maybe in September I will feel differently. The nair on the other hand was a flat out coding error, never intended to exist at all. That is not up for debate. Neither is the up-smash. I just wanted you guys to know some details of the move, and supplied them.

@JCz: It is nothing like Zelda's old up-smash, which has a large disjointed hitbox, invincibility, greater damage and is much faster. In fact, Zelda's current up-smash is still far far far superior to Sonic's. That its faster (less than a third the startup of Sonic's up-smash equates to approximately a metric f***-ton of difference), does matter (the non-escapable, higher damage, larger disjointed hitbox also helps). Out of shield options yo!

Zelda's up-smash is better than Sonic's in every single way except for having a SLIGHTLY higher KO% on average.

Fox's up-smash is better than Sonic's in every way. There is no aspect of Sonic's up-smash that favorably compares to fox's up-smash.

I'm really trying to keep the post from derailing into sonic needs (insert) buff. But who that isn't a scrub is complaining about up-smash being too good? Please tell me that these aren't fellow coders or tournament level players.

That's good, cause I hate when threads do that.

VaNz is a better Sonic player (without even maining Sonic!) than the vast majority of people posting here (and tbh probably everyone). I shouldn't need to list his credentials. Suffice to say he is established, legit, a b+ and melee broomer with tons of competitive experience, and one of my favorite smashers, period. Its good to pay attention to people like that when they say a move is excessive, no?

 

[cobaltblue]

People autoescaped even in vBrawl. "credit to Bio for informing me of that at Pound 4"

Way to not know your own character.


I specifically said I did not believe the up-smash needed to be changed. Maybe in September I will feel differently. The nair on the other hand was a flat out coding error, never intended to exist at all. That is not up for debate. Neither is the up-smash. I just wanted you guys to know some details of the move, and supplied them.

@JCz: It is nothing like Zelda's old up-smash, which has a large disjointed hitbox, invincibility, greater damage and is much faster. In fact, Zelda's current up-smash is still far far far superior to Sonic's. That its faster (less than a third the startup of Sonic's up-smash equates to approximately a metric f***-ton of difference), does matter (the non-escapable, higher damage, larger disjointed hitbox also helps). Out of shield options yo!

Zelda's up-smash is better than Sonic's in every single way except for having a SLIGHTLY higher KO% on average.

Fox's up-smash is better than Sonic's in every way. There is no aspect of Sonic's up-smash that favorably compares to fox's up-smash.



That's good, cause I hate when threads do that.

VaNz is a better Sonic player (without even maining Sonic!) than the vast majority of people posting here (and tbh probably everyone). I shouldn't need to list his credentials. Suffice to say he is established, legit, a b+ and melee broomer with tons of competitive experience, and one of my favorite smashers, period. Its good to pay attention to people like that when they say a move is excessive, no?

Veril I didn't say you were changing the upsmash or want to start a debate about leaving the "errored" nair in. I simply stated my opinion that people who think Sonic's X move (or any character's move for that matter) is op without maining the character should try them first. I'm sure Zexon for example would rip me a new one if I started whinning that Ganon's fair and dair is too strong when I don't know jack about the skill it takes to be good with Ganon.

Second thing is that I hardly played sonic in vB due to losing interest with the chess style play of the game. Infact I stopped roughly around the time kupo even brought up the idea codes under the old 255 code limit. And pre 6.0 upsmash did not cause the characters to escape near as much. There were times in 6.0 where I was hitting people full blast and they just got flat out spiked by the thing. This got corrected in 7.0+ so there is no point in going further with this.

Finally take this for a grain of salt as its wifi, but if this is the same VaNz who I played against online before. I can safely say he is doing sonic no-nos just by the way he attempted to approach/attack. And I'm not talking about actual win/loss ratio (although I did when that match with a char who has a disadvantage). Of course this doesn't mean he doesn't know some of the workings of sonic but it also doesn't mean you assume everyone who doesn't travel to a tournament is making stuff up.

But anyways I look forward to the correct nair implementation in 7.3. Long as the kb, slight disjoint and invinciblity( or did this get removed because it was thought too overpowered too?) remain I'm happy.

 

[yami_sora]

Relax Veril, we trust you to do what's best for the community. I think we all have a better grasp on Sonic's moves now and how they work, as well as what is being changed and what isn't. Nothing to worry about. After the next patch comes along to stabilize things I'll get on doing a Sonic guide. But if VaNs is so much better than I am why don't you have him do it? =p

 

[JCaesar]

@JCz: It is nothing like Zelda's old up-smash, which has a large disjointed hitbox, invincibility, greater damage and is much faster. In fact, Zelda's current up-smash is still far far far superior to Sonic's. That its faster (less than a third the startup of Sonic's up-smash equates to approximately a metric f***-ton of difference), does matter (the non-escapable, higher damage, larger disjointed hitbox also helps). Out of shield options yo!

Zelda's up-smash is better than Sonic's in every single way except for having a SLIGHTLY higher KO% on average.

By her "old" usmash I meant the one that was not invincible and hit platforms. You know, the one that everyone seemed to think was so OP specifically because you could chase anyone trying to get back to the ground with it. Now Sonic has the same move, except it kills better, and he can chase much better due to his speed. The only thing keeping it in check is the fact that you can fall out of it with little effort.

And I'm pretty sure I said I was specifically not talking about its use OOS. Zelda has better OOS options. Haven't you ever played Ryoko? Lightning kicks yo!

 

[Dark Sonic]

You mean the one that came out instantaneously and did ridiculous amounts of damage on a character that was hard to approach in the first place?

They are not the same move....at all. Sonic's upsmash doesn't double as a defensive wall like Zelda's, or a combo finisher like Fox's. It is ONLY a punishing move, why can't it be good at that?

 

[JCaesar]

You mean the one that came out instantaneously and did ridiculous amounts of damage on a character that was hard to approach in the first place?

They are not the same move....at all. Sonic's upsmash doesn't double as a defensive wall like Zelda's, or a combo finisher like Fox's. It is ONLY a punishing move, why can't it be good at that?

That's not what I'm talking about at all though. The entire reasoning used for nerfing Zelda's usmash was because it did what Sonic's usmash now does better. It could've been nerfed in different ways if what you mentioned was the problem with Zelda's usmash, but it wasn't. Do you see what I mean? It just seems hypocritical to me.

 

[Veril]

The above argument is too silly to even respond to but I am anyway, cause its coming from JC... The moves are not comparable. Zelda's up-smash in every iteration is superior to Sonic's up-smash currently.

The single way Sonic's up-smash is better is a slightly early KO, and I mean, slightly, like a few % lower. Given that the move has a much smaller, non-disjointed hitbox, which has (as I'm growing tired of saying) 3x the startup... actually **** it. This is ********. The comparison is ******** on every level. If Sonic's up-smash were massively disjointed you might have something that vaguely resembles a point. But it isn't. You don't have a point.

Get this zelda s*** out of the sonic thread.

 

[JCaesar]

Yeah... It's not worth trying to explain it a 3rd time with even smaller words, so ... to be continued, if Sonic's usmash ever gets fixed so you don't randomly fall out of it.