Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[JayBee]

Jiggs WOP idea is good, but sonic can go in and out of an opponents range better than she can, and punish with up smash well. its a matter of who can bait the other into mistakes the best. both recoveries are too good so that's 50/50. the match up will get harder if pound is used correctly. teh best way to rack up damage might be to up throw her with upairs and mixups to follow, but im not sure how good her dair is. even so, correctly spaced sonics upair is broken. her most powerful move isn't easy to land on a moving target like sonic, so its use is very limited. repeated use of pound in hopes to catch an approaching sonic is the best option to start of an offensive flow against sonic, and get him on the defensive. and unless sonic is under jiggs, an aerial approach is difficult to initiate without risk.



I think that matchup is in his favor though. 60:40 ? idk

 

[thecatinthehat]

I think that matchup is in his favor though. 60:30 ? idk

60:30??

lol now I know you're not Asian.

lololol

I agree with 60:40

 

[illinialex24]

I am honored to be here at the pimpest boards ever . Anyway, its almost impossible with Sonic's invincibility to fully gimp a Sonic. However, you can screw with him and his spring stands no chance against your dair, especially his uair. Jigglypuff can grab fairly well here but she has to be careful, there is also the fact that Sonic should not blindly charge his B-side or down into rollout if a Jigglypuff is charging it. There is around a 5 frame window where if she releases it then, it will get priority over his B-side or down and also be at full killing potential.

This is just basic stuff right here.

 

[JayBee]

60:30??

lol now I know you're not Asian.

lololol

I agree with 60:40

screw you cat. I always give 10% to steak.
its like a tithe. LOL

 

[thecatinthehat]

...

lol you got me this time.

 

[JayBee]

"Superior Attack!"
(lol shameless Iron Man reference)
my super wit saves me yet again...

 

[aeghrur]

Illinalex, what do you mean by

However, you can screw with him and his spring stands no chance against your dair, especially his uair

?

If you mean, you can screw with him and his spring, that might be true.
If you mean your D-air outprioritizes our U-dair, I must disagree as our U-air is REALLY disjointed.

 

[MarKO X]

Introduction: Lightestweight of the lightweight, but she's a balloon, how nice.

Behaviour: She moves like a balloon.

Commonly Used Moves: Pound, Fair, Bair, Dair > Rest

How to Win: Pretend she's a MetaKnight. Seriously, try it

Recommended Stages: Anything with a low ceiling. (Green Greens is my fav)

Matchup Summary: Utilt, Uair, Uthrow. End game. Dont try to gimp her, but get that extra damage anyway.

Lol: Rollout beats SpinDash/SpinCharge. Wtf.

Lol, the sequel: Break Jigglypuff's shield please.

Disclaimer: biased, but chock full of good info.

 

[Kinzer]

I am honored to be here at the pimpest boards ever . Anyway, its almost impossible with Sonic's invincibility to fully gimp a Sonic.

KinzEdit: Lolwut?

However, you can screw with him and his spring stands no chance against your dair, especially his uair. Jigglypuff can grab fairly well here but she has to be careful, there is also the fact that Sonic should not blindly charge his B-side or down into rollout if a Jigglypuff is charging it. There is around a 5 frame window where if she releases it then, it will get priority over his B-side or down and also be at full killing potential.

This is just basic stuff right here.

I love the bolded parts, Alex.

I also find Hyphen-USmash to work very well against aerial jiggs who don't use Pound when they don't expect you to get to them that fast.

 

[illinialex24]

I love the bolded parts, Alex.

I also find Hyphen-USmash to work very well against aerial jiggs who don't use Pound when they don't expect you to get to them that fast.

Yeah lol. And what I meant by fully gimp is actually gimp a sonic. Because of his recovery and where he is vulnerable, its not unreasonable to get like 10, 15% damage on him with a dair. But past that your in troublesome waters. Fair can kill Sonic though.

 

[Kinzer]

Erm... you do realise that Sonic even with invincibiltiy can't gimp himself unless he's ********, right?

I'ma grammar Nazi.

But anyway are you sure Fair outright killing anytime soon man? Stale-move decay is a b****.

 

[illinialex24]

Erm... you do realise that Sonic even with invincibiltiy can't gimp himself unless he's ********, right?

I'ma grammar Nazi.

But anyway are you sure Fair outright killing anytime soon man? Stale-move decay is a b****.

Yeah I am for Jigglypuff. Because Jigglypuff's don't stale it very often IRL past 10%. So its all clear at around 80-90% where it kills near the stage insanely early. And yeah, Sonic can't get gimped but you can dair his recovery like once with all 8 hits but past that your screwed. Because it has no knockback.

 

[MrEh]

But anyway are you sure Fair outright killing anytime soon man? Stale-move decay is a b****.

Fair is one of Jigg's most usable killing moves. To put it simply, it is stronger then Bowser's Fair.

Keeping it fresh is something that all Jiggs mains do. They never let it get stale, because it simply does not kill if that happens.


I'm totally waiting for Veril to jump into this thread with his Rest Mojo.

 

[Kinzer]

Nevermind Alex. XD

Err... so then if Jiggly isn't using Fair in the air (which he/she/it/potato should be there a lot of the time), then what is he/she/it/potato going to be using a majority of the time? I imagine that Fair is Jiggly's best ranged attack in the air, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I imagine it is since it sticks out, and has a sex-kick thing going on. If I am right for whatever reason though, I would think that could be even more detrimental to Jiggly, since Sonic actually has an easier time spacing than with many of not all other characters.

 

[illinialex24]

Nevermind Alex. XD

Err... so then if Jiggly isn't using Fair in the air (which he/she/it/potato should be there a lot of the time), then what is he/she/it/potato going to be using a majority of the time? I imagine that Fair is Jiggly's best ranged attack in the air, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I imagine it is since it sticks out, and has a sex-kick thing going on. If I am right for whatever reason though, I would think that could be even more detrimental to Jiggly, since Sonic actually has an easier time spacing than with many of not all other characters.

Actually bair goes out and comes in faster and actually has longer range if spaced correctly and can "combo" very well if staled. So its to your advantage to use it a lot as well as dair. However, fair's longer lasting hitbox helps out a lot on wifi which really screws killing.

 

[MrEh]

Err... so then if Jiggly isn't using Fair in the air (which he/she/it/potato should be there a lot of the time), then what is he/she/it/potato going to be using a majority of the time? I imagine that Fair is Jiggly's best ranged attack in the air, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I imagine it is since it sticks out, and has a sex-kick thing going on. If I am right for whatever reason though, I would think that could be even more detrimental to Jiggly, since Sonic actually has an easier time spacing than with many of not all other characters.

Now we can get to the fun part. Okay, Jiggs will probably only use her Fair on two occasions.

1. Early on in the match where killing is unlikely.

2. Killing later on in the match.


So that means for most of the match, Jigg's will try to keep her Fair fresh. What does she use instead? Pound.

Pound is such a ******** move. Due to the nature of special move priority, it beats out nearly everything that isn't heavily disjointed. (Like Game and Watch's turtle) Pound is just too good.

He other aerials aren't bad either.

 

[Kinzer]

Oh yeah I forgot all about Pound, and I even mention this in my first post pertaining to Jiggles! *facepalm*

Okay then how about this:

Do you Jigglys recommand any stages to CP and which ones to Ban?

I would imagine that you all agree with us that we CP stages with low blastzones to take advantage of Jiggly's weight, but are there any stages Sonic should have to really worry about? I don't really care, since I just always ban Japes, but if not that stage, is there anything else to stay away from?

 

[MrEh]

I would imagine that you all agree with us that we CP stages with low blastzones to take advantage of Jiggly's weight, but are there any stages Sonic should have to really worry about? I don't really care, since I just always ban Japes, but if not that stage, is there anything else to stay away from?

Well, you mentioned Japes, and that's the most prominent example of Jiggs ****. She really loves that stage. Other then that, she does fine on Final Destination. But then again, so do you.

I think she does freakishly awesome on Norfair, but that's just from my perspective. I use Norfair for like everything, since it's my counterpick of choice.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I don't know I haven't played a really good jigglyuff in awhile.

 

[Tenki]

If the Jigglypuff knows the matchup, it's very possible to float just above Sonic's spring in the space of the "vulnerability window" and float aerials there >_>



Speaking of knowing matchups, the D-throw tech thing?

Jigglypuff can't DI Sonic's D-throw in ANY direction until 139%.

...lol

 

[MalcolmM]

go play glick shadowlink. 55:45 sonic. uptilt a shielded pound.


edit: i used to write paragraphs on matchup discussions g2ftw but i grew tired of having my experiences against offline players who are like the best with their characters in the world (DK, Peach, Toon link, Metaknight, Diddy Kong and the list goes on) being challenged by random online experiences of other ppl...now i just write helpful hints and my thoughts as far as the #s go.

i just dont feel like writing out every possible scenario and then the retort being "well on wifi last night this freak accident happended" or "i have no problems edgeguarding my friends (insert character) so i dont find (insert character) to be a problem for sonic".

i still love the sonic boards tho...i just dont feel like arguing.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I have played glick, just not offline. he one time we did play was at ryko's and I only saw his other floaties not his jiggly. =(
Maybe I should set up a match with him some time.

I am on the fence concerning this matchup, I really am not sure which way it would go. I am motivated to say 50-50 but yeah like i said, no clue.

 

[Kinzer]

SL, what could make you think it's a neutral matchup? I am inclined to think you're seriously under-estimating Sonic...

I didn't want to say it but it seems like you left me no choice.

Whatever Jiggly is or has, Sonic has the same stuff if not better...

Recovery - Even

Kill power - Even if not in favor of Sonic.

Survival - Sonic's favor hands down.

Range - Sonic's favor.

Now while I try to remain unbiased, I cannot really see what Jigglypuff has that can even push this matchup to be neutral. I can noly see it being 55:45 Sonic's favor at worst, and I won't go as far to say a 65:35 advantage because I know how it feels to have your character stupified.

I'm still free to be convinced otherwise.

Edit: Malcolm, disregard those people. We just shun people like that one idiot who said 7:3 D3's favor.

 

[Tenki]

Jigglypuff's retreating aerials and aerial priority/aerial mobility?

9__9;

 

[JayBee]

this is looking like the debate is nearign a close already. is there something we are missing concerning jiggs?

 

[Tenki]

More jigglypuff mains.

We really prided our matchup discussions on sufficient participation from both sides, and recently, it's kind of sucked.

 

[JayBee]

its not my fault. im too freindly...
tenki, check the poster i added in my thread its main ingredient is win. and sodium... idk why...

i got 977 posts. let the countdown to 1000 begin...

 

[MrEh]

Jigglypuff's retreating aerials and aerial priority/aerial mobility?

9__9;

Well, Jigg's does have the best aerial manuverability in the game.


There is one thing that we haven't discussed though.

However, we need Veril to properly explain it, since he came up with the theory and execution. The details on how well it works on Sonic is a bit sketchy though. I'll try to get him to explain it, since he said awhile back that it works very well on Sonic.

 

[ShadowLink84]

SL, what could make you think it's a neutral matchup? I am inclined to think you're seriously under-estimating Sonic...

I normally do it .

I didn't want to say it but it seems like you left me no choice.

Oh no!

Whatever Jiggly is or has, Sonic has the same stuff if not better...

On this I disagree[/quote]

Recovery - Even

K

Kill power - Even if not in favor of Sonic.

Kill power? Not really an issue, the issue is the ease of landing a kill move and jggs does have faster kill moves than Sonic.

Survival - Sonic's favor hands down.

mmk

Range - Sonic's favor.

We also have a range advantage on Wario.

Now while I try to remain unbiased, I cannot really see what Jigglypuff has that can even push this matchup to be neutral. I can noly see it being 55:45 Sonic's favor at worst, and I won't go as far to say a 65:35 advantage because I know how it feels to have your character stupified.

I'm still free to be convinced otherwise.

Edit: Malcolm, disregard those people. We just shun people like that one idiot who said 7:3 D3's favor.

how about Jigglypuff's aerial mobility and her ability to stay in the air with better priority.
Sonic really doesn't have that much over jigglypuff and as I mentioned earler, my lack of jigglypuff experience doesn't help. hence why I'll go with underestimating Sonic rather than going out and making a fool of myself and saying things that are not true.

 

[Kinzer]

Well, Jigg's does have the best aerial manuverability in the game.

I thought Jiggly was second bananas to Yoshi.

I normally do it .

K

Kill power? Not really an issue, the issue is the ease of landing a kill move and jggs does have faster kill moves than Sonic.

mmk

We also have a range advantage on Wario.

how about Jigglypuff's aerial mobility and her ability to stay in the air with better priority.
Sonic really doesn't have that much over jigglypuff and as I mentioned earler, my lack of jigglypuff experience doesn't help. hence why I'll go with underestimating Sonic rather than going out and making a fool of myself and saying things that are not true.

Ah.

Are you agreeing with me or being sarcastic? I can't tell. However if you are disagreeing with me, I would appreciate it if you could provide something other than "K."

Well for damage racking, I don't want to get in detail seeing as how I am unsure, but doesn't Bair work? It works in teh air and is afterall our 3rd best killer. Jiggly is gonig to be in the air and we won't be landing FSmash anytime soon, but I can assure you Sonic should be living a lot longer than Jiggly would. You win the faster kill moves though... however Jiggly would probably have some kind of trouble regardless. She (I'm just going to make Jiggly female here so it's easier for me) may be able to weave easily, but she still has that range problem... and I should be able to see her coming and be able to stay out of range. Meh... I'm not too sure about this but defenitely her killing moves come out faster... the matter at hand is using them so they can hit.

Again here I cannot tell if you are being sarcastic or not. I really do hope Sonic is more capable of staying alive than a balloon, though...

D***it, you win there...

C'mon now... doesn't the horizontal disjointedness of Uairs first hit alone be capable to at worst trade hits with Jiggly's attacks?

I suppose I can't argue much else until you get a match with a pro Jiggly scheduled. let me know when you get that to happen.

 

[MrEh]

I thought Jiggly was second bananas to Yoshi.

Yoshi has the fastest aerial movement speed, but he cannot change directions quickly. Jiggs can weave better then anyone.

C'mon now... doesn't the horizontal disjointedness of Uairs first hit alone be capable to at worst trade hits with Jiggly's attacks?

Not Pound, but that beats almost everything anyway.

 

[Kinzer]

Oh yeah right.

I had aerial speed confused with aerial acceleration.

Sawwy.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Ah.

Are you agreeing with me or being sarcastic? I can't tell. However if you are disagreeing with me, I would appreciate it if you could provide something other than "K."

No it is an agreement. it is late so I get rather short on my words.

Well for damage racking, I don't want to get in detail seeing as how I am unsure, but doesn't Bair work? It works in teh air and is afterall our 3rd best killer. Jiggly is going to be in the air and we won't be landing FSmash anytime soon, but I can assure you Sonic should be living a lot longer than Jiggly would. You win the faster kill moves though... however Jiggly would probably have some kind of trouble regardless. She (I'm just going to make Jiggly female here so it's easier for me) may be able to weave easily, but she still has that range problem... and I should be able to see her coming and be able to stay out of range. Meh... I'm not too sure about this but defenitely her killing moves come out faster... the matter at hand is using them so they can hit.

indeed, I feel that in spite of neither character have truly good kill setups, it falls down to whom is faster in unleashing their killing move, so Sonic definitely has a bit more problems killing the puffball. Its the mobility issue that gets me most though, Sonic can compete with his ground speed though.

Again here I cannot tell if you are being sarcastic or not. I really do hope Sonic is more capable of staying alive than a balloon, though...

Course he is.

D***it, you win there...

teehee

C'mon now... doesn't the horizontal disjointedness of Uairs first hit alone be capable to at worst trade hits with Jiggly's attacks?

Yes as does your Bair. The issue being though is what results from the clas. unless you are using a Fair its best to avoid going directly with her. It absolutely sucks *** to meet her Fair with a Uair and trade hits.

So its best to play cautiously and try to control spacing, jiggly will attempt it to be sure.

I suppose I can't argue much else until you get a match with a pro Jiggly scheduled. let me know when you get that to happen.

But of course. Glick lives in NY i think, maybe I can bother him for a match.
*smacks his forehead*
Ah wait I can ask ninjalink. He lives in the same borough after all and mor than likely he probably has used the character. So I'll ask him in case I can't get a hold of Glick.

 

[Thinkaman]

Sonic isn't one of my favorite matchups as Jiggs, since he's impossible to gimp and doesn't end up WoP'd if he knows what's good for him, but I'd rather fight Sonic with Jigglypuff than most other characters. Sonic just has trouble approaching Jigglypuff in the air, and Jigglypuff is always in the air. Nothing Sonic has really stops the steady march of bairs coming his way.

There's a lot of flashy potential to rest Sonic, but I prefer to not use Rest at all in the matchup actually. After all, since Sonic isn't likely to get a bair and is never going to get a uair or f/d-smash, Jigglypuff is going to live forever while Sonic is going to die at ~120% from a fair. A missed Rest is Sonic's only chance for a low percent KO, so I'd rather just have a war of attrition.

The one thing I don't like about the matchup though, is that I get less dash attacks and rarely get grabs.

 

[Kinzer]

Sonic isn't one of my favorite matchups as Jiggs, since he's impossible to gimp and doesn't end up WoP'd if he knows what's good for him, but I'd rather fight Sonic with Jigglypuff than most other characters. Sonic just has trouble approaching Jigglypuff in the air, and Jigglypuff is always in the air. Nothing Sonic has really stops the steady march of bairs coming his way.

There's a lot of flashy potential to rest Sonic, but I prefer to not use Rest at all in the matchup actually. After all, since Sonic isn't likely to get a bair and is never going to get a uair or f/d-smash, Jigglypuff is going to live forever while Sonic is going to die at ~120% from a fair. A missed Rest is Sonic's only chance for a low percent KO, so I'd rather just have a war of attrition.

The one thing I don't like about the matchup though, is that I get less dash attacks and rarely get grabs.

That's why we use our #1 ground speed. I think by this point it's safe to assume trying to play into Jigglypuff's turf is just stupid. We will only go into the air to use attacks, and retreat back into the ground where we can gun you down best from. Except maybe Uairs and Springs and what have you, though it's been assured that Jiggly can Pound.

Haha yeah, whiff one Rest and it's a free Forward Smash into oblivion. Now while I know this is the case with any whiffed rests. Sonic is the queen of punishment (LOL MK). I don't know about living forever but I guess this is okay. However I think you underestimate the spamability of Uair... it's simply just too good... granted you have any other grounded smash killer move we have.

Very true, Sonic just keeps moving.

 

[MalcolmM]

u should ask glick SL....he knows the matchup.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Ahh mkay, I've played this match-up from the other side (online admittedly) and it's...kinda hard for Jiggz :<

To be honest, I can't think of a strategy for Sonic to use against her. This is very much an onstage game, as there's really no point in wanting to gimp either player as if both characters are good with their respective characters, then they're only going to get gimped if they screw up horrendously.

A lot of people have suggested using usmash here. It's generally an unsafe option, thanks to the ending lag. Jiggz COULD just avoid it with her best aerial maneuverability EVAR and punish the ending lag, or if she's feeling confident try a well spaced Pound through it.

I really don't know whether you should play offensive or defensive, weaving aerials are just a problem D;

Use utilt instead of usmash, as far as I know it's less punishable as it has less ending lag.

Though, limit utilt as much as possible. I'm pretty sure Jiggz can rest you through multi-hit moves, and I'm not sure that utilt gives enough hitstun/hitboxes come out fast enough for you not to get rested through :<

Oh well, no one but me uses utilt anyways. Other multihits are safe enough. Ftilt's 2nd hitbox comes out too fast, there's no way that they're resting through usmash lol, fair I'm almost positive can't be rested through as it's a quick multi-hit, and uair's 1st hit has set knockback which puts Jiggz out of range to rest you before your second kick.

I know a footstool =>dair => rest thing was found on Jiggz's boards a while ago. If I remember, you could dair => footstool =>dair => rest? Well, it didn't say if it was affected by DI. Is it?

Keep Jiggz grounded somehow and win. Any Jiggz main worth their salt will admit that she's horrible on the ground, which is why none of them stay grounded. Keep her at range with ftilts and such. It's very much a momentum game here, whilst she's advancing it's best to play defensive/run away, whilst whilst she's retreating aerials it's always best to rush her.

Staying power and KO potential I feel is in Sonic's favour, though I have to admit that it's embarrassing dying to a dash attack. Jiggz light weight and lack of ranged KO moves ensure this (well, I know fair's good but whatever)

I see this myself as 50:50. I could see it swing 5 points in either direction though. I don't see how any side could claim an advantage without a very strong argument bringing new ideas to the table.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I don't think it was mentioned but can't Jiggs Smash DI and Rest us during Fair?

Sonic will land bairs btw and where we don't necessarily HAVE to leave the ground until the time is right you DO have to land and we're fast enough on the ground to punish.

Did you guys get around to working on that Rising Dair>aerial>pound to shield break yet? Holding us down for a charged Rollout could be REALLY beneficial. Particularly in this matchup.

And if you float TOO low we can rip you up with Usmash. We'll eat your attacks. ALMOST guaranteed. If you float too high our awesome disjointed Uair can hit you. There is an area where you're basically safe but it's tough to stay there and we can be ready when you run out of jumps. On the Jiggs side of this matchup I like to basically stay on the ground weird as that sounds. Keep your jumps refreshed as much as you can.

I've DA'ed Jiggs on landing after expending all her jumps and just followed her to land an Fsmash.

I think it's more stage dependent than character based. 5:5 and maybe 6:4 for either side depending on the stage.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Alright, Dedede wrapped up, I'll see what I can make of it.

EDIT: Finished Dedede write-up. Tell me what you think, critique and help me change it.

 

[Chis]

Roy, I thought you said you didn't know the match up?