Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

You should read the past discussion...I think a conclusion has been reached and I think Peach has an advantage

 

[ElemMasterZeph92]

is she really that good?

 

[ROOOOY!]

Better than Sonic.

 

[ElemMasterZeph92]

well then im maining both her and sonic. a duo called royal winds

 

[Kinzer]

So anyway are we all good for Peach and capable to move on to the next character?

*Goes to look at who is next*

Edit: Oh hey it's Zelda, two damsels in distress in a row?

I heard they have somebody called "Sonic the Hedgedawg" over there. LOL

 

[PKNintendo]

So anyway are we all good for Peach and capable to move on to the next character?

*Goes to look at who is next*

Edit: Oh hey it's Zelda, two damsels in distress in a row?

I heard they have somebody called "Sonic the Hedgedawg" over there. LOL

But seriously, he's a pretty good guy.

Edit: WHOA HOLD THE PHONE!

Peach chaingrabs Sonic (rereading the topic) how the heck does she do that?

 

[da K.I.D.]

hedgedawg is a lot like bowyer from my experiences...

and it if the CG is true (i doubt it) than id like to know about it to

 

[Blackbelt]

hedgedawg is a lot like bowyer from my experiences...

and it if the CG is true (i doubt it) than id like to know about it to

oh god, Bowyer has a twin?

 

[Kinzer]

I think the chaingrab is easily breakable if not just dimply DIed out of.

Hell, Peaches can't CG my Ike more than twice in a row...BTW it's the D-throw.

Now if Ike can get out of that, why can't Sonic?

 

[da K.I.D.]

ok so its seems we are in agreement that the CG if possible, wont effect the match...

and for the record bowyer is awesome, and hedgedawg doesnt cuss NEARLY as much as he does lol

 

[Greenstreet]

Ok move onto the next page then. And pls don't mind the chars not being completed yet, remember I am in exam block atm so I am concentratin on that.

Thanks for your patience/whatever.

 

[Tenki]

I think the chaingrab is easily breakable if not just dimply DIed out of.

Hell, Peaches can't CG my Ike more than twice in a row...BTW it's the D-throw.

Now if Ike can get out of that, why can't Sonic?

It's a longer CG if you DI the wrong way.


and I always seem to DI the wrong way.

Also can set up for U-tilts or some [bait airdodge] > [killsmash] combo lol.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I say we skip Zelda and do MK O.o

 

[Tenki]

Nah, save MK for later.

I have a juicy amount of frame data under request that I'm waiting for lol.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Lol. It's not a proper CG. If you DI incorrectly, Peach can D Throw you, turn around and D throw you again. This will only get around 20% on you and she'll usually finish off with an F Tilt/Up Tilt

And watch out for potential Jab --> Grab --> Release ---> Repeat. You can jump out of this easily

 

[da K.I.D.]

We are now discussing zelda.

she sucks, but i cant get around her up smash to save my life

 

[Espy Rose]

We are now discussing zelda.

she sucks, but i cant get around her up smash to save my life

Is there even a way to DI out of her usmash?

 

[Napilopez]

I believe there is a way to DI out of her Usmash and Fsmash. DI/SDI whatever it is.

 

[Tenki]

SDI downwards/away from her hand movement apparently can make you drop out of it if you're close enough to the edge of the attack. For a while, I was questioning why I was able to get a 'downwards trajectory' out of Zelda's U-smash that 'spiked me' into the floor. Apparently, it was me SDIing out of the U-smash and dropping but not teching the floor lol.

F-smash, you can SDI away (??) and upwards (most reliable[?])

I've had weird moments getting hit by F-smash, doublestick spamming forward to SDI towards/behind Zelda, and still get launched, but backwards instead.

Horrible magnetic smashes :[

 

[Napilopez]

Ahh, so thats how you do it.

I've never worried above Zeldas smashes too much though. I dunno why they never seemed to pose that much of a threat to me. But then again, Zelda never seems like much of a prob to me. Springing out to safety can be a lifesaver here against Utilt/usmash/uair. Just don't immediatly dair all the time, because you willlll eat a hyphensmash/Fsmash.

Dins Fire doesn't exactly present a problem for Sonic. Zelda is relatively light, So yea. Is she is above, you have control pretty much as a well. her aerials are pretty linear and as a result you basically know which aerial she will use depending on the angle you are coming in from.

Zelda has the killing power, but what else does she have over Sonic?

 

[Espy Rose]

I personally find her to be one of the easiest characters to keep off of the level. When she up-B's to recover, it's either onto the level, or the edge (obviously).

As soon as she's about to disappear, I always tend to instant ledge grab, wait for her to appear and take action. On stage, I'll jump from the ledge and grab. Off of the ledge, it's an edgeguard KO.

Of course, there are alot of variables to consider, and it doesn't work every time, but it does prove quite effective depending on how far they are from the side of the level.

I have a friend who plays a moderate Zelda, so I'm going to have to play him and experiment with my DI for his usmash.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Naryu's Love is horrible. Though the ending lag is fairly punishable.
It's just her defensive game that's really good.

Her style of play is completely negated by Sonic.
Din's Fire to rack up damage and force approach then play on the defensive doesn't really work against Sonic.

 

[Kinzer]

I'll go let the Zeldas know We're up to her... That is unless I see it's been done already.

 

[Tenki]

I don't normally see Zeldas unless it's a Sheik player using Zelda for a kill.

So yeah, if you knock a Sheik off the stage and you're at a high %, watch out for those high/far off-stage transformations.

She's a fraeking angel of death :[

Her U-tilt kills almost as early as Snake's.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Her utilt kills earlier than snakes actually. it's the strongest in the game. and her Uair is even stronger. Zelda will have no trouble killing you if she connects. you gotta try to bait her into whiffing a lot or she'll cook you like a goose.

that's all you got workin for you in the matchup... but luckily it's REALLY workin for you. Sonic has a lot of feints that can really easily bait a response out of zelda and once you get that you can normally punish her cooldown lag and get her in a compromising position. she hates being juggled.

then again... zelda is pretty much a sparkly wall of priority that you WILL lose against if you smack into it.... so if you don't bait something... good luck.

 

[Blackbelt]

Zelda's a bit difficult to punish. At least punishing out of shield anyway, and it's hard to time when her attack actually ends.


But let me tell you, once you get in, you're in.


Especially if she's in the air. We're not big enough to lightning kick accurately while doing our crazy stuff.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

you are wrong there. Sonic is more than large enough to lightning kick. you just normally aren't sitting still enough to let us. but if you ever get predicted or leave yourself with cooldown lag... yeah, we can Lightning kick you... and it'll hurt.


Din's is only really used for off the stage harassment against sonic.

Nayru's reversals work GREAT against sonic. sonic has such low priority around the board that I can generally counter any approach I see coming with nayru's and then just direct him off the edge with it, where he loses a lot of his foothold against zelda.

speaking of his low priority... I can sadly sit there with sheik can chain/needle camp to wrack up his damge for zelda really well. that's when I do best against him.

 

[Kinzer]

Well, there are still those who use Zelda over Sheik... in any case I already let them know.

Now we just wait for their PoV.

As for mine... I think it can be even.

Our Spins when charged will cancel Din's, and they won't be using it so much unless they want to get punished. We're Sonic, we can get to them by the time they get out of the ending lag of Din's.

Zelda's recovery is mediocre at best, if they do anything but sweetspot the ledge, that's your chance to go for a Shawnik Pauwnch!

Transformations will refresh their moveset, meaning if they go Sheik in the middle of the fight, you probably want to be on-gaurd for her kill-moves in that form. (Although this is complicated, I know that Shieks will go Zelda for the kill, but the other way around? I don't see it happeneing often if ever.)

I guess for Nayru's, you have to punish that and not get caught in it. I wonder if they use it as a GTFO move, but it's easy to punish the ending lag of Nayru's with a Boxobair. But that's an example, there might be other ways.

Zelda's aerials are...powerful...her F/B/Uair have sweetspots...don't let them hit you with it. Her Dair spikes, but has startup and ending lag, and is not really all that poweful. A simple Spring and you're back from square one. Nair is...like Peach's Nair...I think...just use the appropriate aerial and space and you should be fine.

Dtilt can lock you in place...maybe...I need clarifacation. Her F/Utilt look similiar to her F/Usmash, the only difference is...hmm...how shall I say it...? Well, the Smashes...Gah I can't explain it I'm too ********!

Anyway Speaking of Smashes, that reminds me of her Dsmash, which comes out fast, and has some nice downward horizontal trajectory. You won't have to worry about this because you are Sonic, and you have a nice recovery.

If Zelda stays true to herself and not use Shiek, I would say that this matchup is in Sonic's favor 60:40. Using Shiek, it mgiht be thrown off a little bit, and I don't know enough of putting them both into the factor.

As for stages, I would say you would want to take Zelda to...Lylat Cruise, Yoshi's Island Brawl, Brinstar, maybe Delfino Plaza...I can't think of anywhere else, but let's just go with those huh?

Edit: Welcome Zelda's, seems like you got the message about as fast as Sonic travels!

 

[-Mars-]

She's a big ol' wall of priority as most of you know, don't know what you guys use as approaches against characters like her and G&W.

Dtilt and her jab will beat most of what Sonic approaches with and she can immediately follow up both of these moves. In fact jab is a great anti aerial option as well, so baiting usmashes and fsmashes won't work against a Zelda that understands the matchup.

All of you failed to mention her dsmash, probably her most utility smash. It comes out on frame 5 and the knockback on it is insane for how quick it is. Sonic can make slower characters feel helpless at times and pair this with Naryus and you have excellent get off me moves.

Dtilt sets up into utilt at higher percentages, so killing Sonic isn't as hard as some of you think.

edit: I noticed Kinzers post after this

 

[A2ZOMG]

Her utilt kills earlier than snakes actually. it's the strongest in the game.

OMG NO, GANONDORF HAS THE STRONGEST U-TILT IN THE GAME!

Just saying.

 

[-Mars-]

OMG NO, GANONDORF HAS THE STRONGEST U-TILT IN THE GAME!

Just saying.

Lol

10Ganoncides

 

[Napilopez]

I really want to... ban the usage of the word "priority" in Sonic match-up discussions. Too misleading, too many misconceptions, and all around annoying XD. No offense intended on anyone, but I'm getting tired of hearing the whoe "Lulz no priority" argument against Sonic.

If anyone is going to refer to priority, please try to do it more on a move vs move basis, because arbitrarily announcing one character has more priority than another is misleading and usually incorrect. There are too many factors and conditions to consider. Like Sonic could be said to have awesome priority against snake, because while so many characters fail against some of his explosives, Sonic's spins beat these out. Or against Samus ASC beats out her missles and whatnot. There is no sense in simply saying one character has better priority than the other. Just comparing individual moves in certain circumstances would be more accurate I believe.

Anyways, its unlikely you will hit Sonic with lightning kicks often. Although he has poor aerial acceleration, his overal airspeed is one of the best, so you'll have difficulty landing such kicks on him.

Usmash is a pain in the butt. But Sonics Usmash actually can be used pretty nicely against Zelda as well. Invincy frames certainly help to get in there. And once Sonic is close up, he can fare pretty well. Sonics need to remember to use ftilt.

Honestly though, I think that for Sonic, grabbing Zelda would be key in the matchup. Shield Cancelled Run grabs and SideB cancelled grabs will all come in handy in getting close range. The only problem is that as Zelda's smashes are multihit, they shield poke, so make sure you aim your shield bubbles appropriately. But as a consequence, I believe they don't have much shield pushback, which makes grabbing easier for you since you don't have to rely on powershielding.

Once sonic Grabs Zelda, then he's in control. Dthrow techchases, uthrow bthrow, I don't think Zelda has that man options to really prevent you from tech-chasing and your throw followups. Just don't be lightning kicked When you try to chase her -_-. Sonic overall fares better than Zelda in the air. If Zelda needs to use her UpB, then she can be in alot fo trouble, especially at high percentages. If shecan't sweet spot the ledge, Sonic has the speed to go and land a kill move upon her reappearence(yea I know it has a hitbox). I think thats actually how I get alot of my kills against Zelda, besides Bairs.

Umm yea, Uair juggles. Try connecting with the first hit of Uair. to get Zelda up in the air from the ground, its nicely ranged and disjointed.

Stages? I can't think of any stages that would be particularly advantageous to Zelda against Sonic.

I'm calling it even for now... Can't see really what one character has substantially over the other. Zelda has power/lingering hitboxes/ease of killing/range in some cases. Sonic has damage, is superior in the air, can tech chase well, is heavier, and can cause trouble for Zelda's recovery. Dins Fire is of little use against him.

 

[Alopex]

I posted in the Zelda thread. If you just want the numbers and not the text, this is a 60-40 in Sonic's favor.

 

[Kinzer]

We needs the text, we need to know anything and everything so that we can win the battle between Zelda.

Some scrub scrub scrub Sonic player out there might like to spam Spring to Land-lagless Dair, but with this matchup, they need to know that if they get predictable, it will usually end up in sweetspots or Smash attacks.

...Yeah, being unpredictable is nice...so something like HA is usually out of the question here...but we're freaking Sonic, if you're predictable, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!

I wonder how tall Zelda's FSmash and how wide Zelda's Usmash is...would be awesome if Sonic can DTilt Zelda right under her USmash.

 

[-Mars-]

Zeldas bair is extremely quick and if we powershield a Sonic attack, you'll eat bair OoS. It isn't like because Sonic is fast we can't land lightning kicks, just that one OoS option alone should frighten you to ever attack our shield.

Like I said earlier, if the Zelda player knows the matchup they will use dtilt and jabs for everything. You talk about her smashes that don't have shield pushback, but these two moves are fantastic pokes. They can be spaced properly just out of shield grab range. You shield cancel run at me and i'll just poke your shield with no danger of me being shield grabbed. Zelda is hard to grab for most characters and Sonic is no different.

Sure Sonic does decent once he's inside of Zelda, but getting inside her is extremely difficult. Like I said earlier, she also has two excellent close range "get off me" moves in Naryus and dsmash.

Dins Fire is useless against most characters, so I don't see why you would even bring it up.

 

[Napilopez]

1)...Yeah, being unpredictable is nice...so something like HA is usually out of the question here...but we're freaking Sonic, if you're predictable, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!

2) I wonder how tall Zelda's FSmash and how wide Zelda's Usmash is...would be awesome if Sonic can DTilt Zelda right under her USmash.

1) Oh yea, Homing attack is a definite nono in this matchup, unless its to punish a Whiffed UpB or Nayru's love, because my God Fsmash or usmash will destroy HA with their lingering hitboxes.

2) Hmm thats an intesting note... Since sonics hurtbox becomes smasller with dtilt, it might come in handy =P

 

[Kinzer]

Dins Fire is useless against most characters, so I don't see why you would even bring it up.

Because we must consider every option and every possibility.

 

[-Mars-]

On a side note, you should probably change the topic title to Zelda instead of Peach

 

[Kinzer]

We know, but only Greenstreet (The thread owner) Can do that, and he is a real busy guy.

 

[Napilopez]

1) Zeldas bair is extremely quick and if we powershield a Sonic attack, you'll eat bair OoS. It isn't like because Sonic is fast we can't land lightning kicks, just that one OoS option alone should frighten you to ever attack our shield.

2) Like I said earlier, if the Zelda player knows the matchup they will use dtilt and jabs for everything. You talk about her smashes that don't have shield pushback, but these two moves are fantastic pokes. They can be spaced properly just out of shield grab range. You shield cancel run at me and i'll just poke your shield with no danger of me being shield grabbed. Zelda is hard to grab for most characters and Sonic is no different.

3) Sure Sonic does decent once he's inside of Zelda, but getting inside her is extremely difficult. Like I said earlier, she also has two excellent close range "get off me" moves in Naryus and dsmash.

4) Dins Fire is useless against most characters, so I don't see why you would even bring it up.

1) But if we powershield a Bair, you'll eat a grab pummel throw techchase thingamabob. Sonic is never frightened! =p JK So it works both Ways. Sonic has decent shield pressure, and he has his own share of shield poking moves. And of course just because Sonic is fast doesn't mean you won't land lightning kicks, but thats akin to saying just because ROB has an amazing recovery doesn't mean we can't gimp him. Simply put, you will have more trouble landing one on Sonic than say, I dunno, some big slower target like DK or D3 or whoever. Nevertheless, it is formidabble and we should definitely be aware of its uberness.

2) Jab isn't that quick though. Dtilt is, but if you start using dtilt, then we have better ranged options.
And they can be spaced perfectly, but will they be constantly? I'm actually not sure. Sonics shield isn't bad, and he gets a very nice slide from his running shield, So im not sure. Either way, don't get hit XD. As for Zelda being hard to grab for Sonic, don't underestimate that you are playing the quickest character in the game, with tons of proprietary feint options. For example we may ASC into you, you think we're going to continue into a roll, and before you know it, we've cancelled and grabbed you. Or we may do a sideB in you face and shield cancel into a grab. But his sheer speed will be what allows him to get grabs. With Sonic I can cover a approximately a fourth of FD in the time it takes for you to release your fsmash. about a fifth in the time it takes you to release neutraB, and thats not counting reaction time. Zelda might be slightly tougher than other characters to grab, but just about the only one that gives Sonic alot of grab woes imo is olimar, because of the range and spammability of his own grab. Otherwise Zelda shouldn't pose tooooo much of a threat to grabbing.

3) Those get off me moves are annoying, but again, it comes down to the feints and grabs.

4) What kinzer said, and I've had some zelda mains preach to me about Din's fire, but that may have just been back in the day when everyone thought it was awesome.