Timotee
Smash Journeyman
Maybe if your Sonic didn't suck, you'd have updated this already.
I'm just sayin'...
I'm just sayin'...
-
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Sonic Impressions. Matches, FAQ/Guide - Updated with vids! (34+ matches)
- Thread starter InterimOfZeal
- Start date
darkNES386
Smash Lord
Comments:
I don't have all the pictures yet/ I'm going to change some of them
Feel free to PM/post in this topic for changes =)
Neutral Standing A - Does 2%
A quick jab, useful for interrupting grabs, starting Sonic's gatling, or just clash-cancelling into the ftilt. Lags as Sonic withdraws his fist, but hard to punish when it connects. A few times, my friend's Lucas was able to jab back, but when I reacted properly, I could jab to clash cancel his next one, and follow it up with an ftilt. If shielded, you can be grabbed. Sonic moves slightly forward for this, so I guess you could use it for a kind of "footsy" game, ala SF. If you're going to do that, though, try using ftilt instead.
Neutral Standing A, A - Does 4% (2 for each jab)
The jab, followed up by another, same basic uses. I guess if you connect with this, you could cancel it and grab, assuming they shield. Really though, you should just finish the gatling to start up some tech-chasing. Lags as Sonic withdraws his fist, but impossible to punish when it connects. If shielded, you can be grabbed. Again, he moves forward, but I'm not sure if it's as much.
Neutral Standing A, A, A - Does 7% (2 for each jab, 3 for kick)
Sonic's gatling combo. Two quick jabs, followed up by a kick. Connect with this, and you should be able to start tech-chasing. If they DI weird, they'll remain standing, or may end up slightly in the air. I've tried to follow both of these up with fairs, but the lag after the kick makes it hard/impossible, currently. I don't have anyone to play as I write this, but I think a dashed usmash ~may~ be a possible follow up, if they're in the air. If you connect with a jab, please just finish the gatling, Sonic relies heavily on tech-chasing currently.
Dash attack Does 4%
Sonic curls up into a ball and spins across a length that spans just shy of 1/2 of FD. Really good range, good cool-down, decent priority, and the ability to chain into ftilt at certain percents all make this move viable for approaches. It has very little "priority", but if it clash-cancels, just start up either the gatling or the ftilt, and you just netted yourself a tech-chase. Can be used to start spacing and grabbing games, but shouldn't be spammed too much. If they see it coming, you're going to get hit with something strong. If this attack leads you to the edge of the stage Sonic will roll in place until the attack finishes.
*Use the c-stick (down on smash setting) to execute your dash attack earlier than you could with A
Forward Tilt (ftilt, horse kick) - Does 11%
Saved my favourite tilt for last. Sonic does a horse-kick, placing his hands on the ground and flinging his legs forward. This seems to be one of Sonic's few moves with actual "priority", having clashed with a few smashes, and beaten every jab it has come across (sans possibly Ike's, dunno for sure on that one) so far. This is Sonic's best footsy/spacing move, and I need to start replacing psychic fsmashes with this move, to better preserve the Fsmash's killing power. Chains into itself, and can knock the enemy down to start tech-chasing opportunities. Very little lag after the hitbox is gone, and due to it's range, it's pretty hard to punish. Loses to PK Fire, but what doesn't? It might have the same range as fsmash, or even more, but it lacks the amazing pullback/KO of that move. Still, one of my favorite moves.
Up Tilt (utilt) - Does 14% (that's like one of his smashes. =D!)
Sonic kicks upwards twice. Think of CF's usmash, and you've got Sonic's utilt. Chains into itself for a total of two hits, and pops the opponent into the air with good knockback. My biggest problem with this move is Sonic's inability to pursue afterwards, due to the lag. Possibly good for using against the back of an opponent's shield, but I dunno yet. Only time I've really used this move is after the dtilt. It's not bad, but it's really hard to incorporate, currently. Not "laggy", per se, as there is very little lag after the hitbox is gone, but not something you want to run up and do to an opponent's face. The biggest boon of it is how much damage it does.
Down Tilt (dtilt) - Does 6%
Sonic sweeps the ground with his foot, moving forward slightly as he does so. Pops the opponent up slightly, and can chain into utilt in training mode at lower percents. At higher percents, it can be followed up with fair, or various other moves. Lags about 3-4 frames more than the last hit of his gatling. Decent poke, but if it misses, you're probably going to get shield-grabbed, or punished in some other form, if you don't space properly. Good for initiating footsy. Probably one of his better moves, but I'm having trouble incorporating it currently. Don't use against projectile spammers like Dedede unless you're sure it'll hit, because you will get Waddle Dees to the face, or, worse yet, Chain Grabbed. D:
Forward Smash (fsmash, Soniiiic Puuuuuuunch!) - Does 14 %
Sonic pulls back, winds up, and punches. This is your primary killing move. It kills as early as 114% from the middle of FD with no DI. Can be linked from various things, such as a low percent uthrow based on DI (psychic fsmash), but I'm thinking ftilt would be better off in this situation. Has good priority, but I should stress that the best part of this move is how Sonic pulls back. I've dodged numerous dash attacks and fsmashes with this move, just to hit them back with a partially charged attack of my own. Very little cool-down lag, which means that you can kind use it to keep opponents at bay. You can increase the range by smashing forward/backward just before executing it with the c-stick (on smash). It can’t be stressed how much you need this move, and not to spam it like you would Marth's.
Up Smash (usmash) - Hits 8 times for a total of 14%
The most utility of Sonic's smashes, due to being able to do it out of a dash, and having decent priority/follow-up options. Sonic gets into a stance, then does an upwards spin, making him invincible to attacks below it. He launches himself to an area just above his head, so this seems to be a viable option if you can manage to initiate footsy with an opponent. I'm going to be working on using this move to dodge and counter other moves, so pay attention to this particular smash for updates. Also, this move eats shields pretty well, but usually you’ll find yourself in a grab after it is blocked. It can shield poke decently, given its odd hitbox.
Down Smash (dsmash) Does 12%
Sonic SpinDashes back and forth over an area, shrinking to about half his height. This can be used to dodge higher placed aerials and counters if used properly? Sonic first rolls forwards then backwards before subtly moving forwards and back again. There are three possible chances to hit (the very last movement is just an animation) making this a good move when your opponent attempts to roll or spot dodge. It should be noted that on the 3rd part of the dsmash, the knockback is significantly reduced, but allows for tech-chasing to start. Furthermore, being aware of which way you face allows you to “dodge” an opponent and then connect with the second hit. One of his better moves, with a few KO options. It is best incorporated against side-steppers, due to how long it stays out. Its similar appearance to spin specials can sometimes fool opponents.
It should be noted that starting this move on the edge of a stage/platform pushes Sonic away from the edge “increasing” the range of the attack. You have slightly better range if you face away from the stage when executing it. Starts killing from the middle of FD at about 120%, given no DI. Avoid spamming this as with all smash attacks.
Jab - Does 3% per knee
Sonic knees the opponent. It is very easy to break grabs at low percents, so you should save this for later, if you plan on using it, ever.
Back Throw (bthrow) - Does 8%
Okay, before I describe this move, I want to let you in on something. This move becomes a thousand times better when you say "Gooooooooo that way!" as you do it. Seriously, I'm not joking. I think it does like... 20% more or something.
With that out of the way, Sonic grabs them and rolls backwards, before releasing them. This move sets up well for edgeguarding, and is just fun in general.
Forward Throw (fthrow) - Hits twice (wtf?) for 9%
(Does 100000% if you say "It's gotta be the shoes" when it hits, but you have to do it frame-perfect.)
Sonic grabs the opponent (duh), and kicks them skyward. This move can be followed up with a fair, but I haven't experimented with it as much as I should, primarily because I have to fight the psychic brats, and they can pop out aerials really fast. More on it later.
Up Throw (uthrow) - Hits twice for 12%, this throw rocks.
Either Sonic's 1st or 2nd best throw, tangent on match-ups. Sonic grabs the enemy, then places them on his back, using his spines to launch them into the air. You can then (typically) follow up with a uair (which even counts as a combo in training mode, in certain cases), fair, or possibly even a bair. This throw is good for starting aerial combos/chases, seriously. If you're fighting a big character, don't even hesitate to use it, because you can typically get at least 1 uair after, if not two, which ends up doing a whopping 30%.
Down Throw (dthrow) - Hits for 5%
Quite possibly the most utility move Sonic possesses. He grabs the opponent, then spin-dashes on top of them. This move allows for tech-chasing, which is something I believe Sonic will come to excel at. If you know you're fighting someone who likes to shield when they're unsure, follow this up with another dthrow, and watch the percent pile up. I find myself doing dthrow, tech-chase, uthrow, uair more frequently than anything ever, and it really helps Sonic wrack up damage quick. Keep this move near and dear to your heart.
Forward Air (fair) - Does anywhere from 6-9%, it seems. On smaller characters, it won't chain when they're on the ground until higher percents, and will only do 3%.
Sonic players around the world seem to love this move, and for good reason. Decent priority, good knockback, multiple hits, combos well, definitely Sonic's most appreciated aerial. Also, if you SH this, but don't fast fall, you cancel any lag on it. Definitely a bonus. It should be noted that, on certain stages/percents, you can actually take the opponent all the way off the stage, and even to their death, with nothing but this (very situational). This move is really good for edge-guarding. Really good.
*Still checkin out some stuff with this
Down Air (dair) Does 8%
Okay, this move is a recycled move. Like ZSS' dair, Sonic kicks downward and plummets to the ground… or his doom. This move is great for getting to the ground, or pressuring the opponent's shield. While the dair is laggy as hell, if you short hop + up-b (or up-b from the ground to the fullest height), then dair, it will cancel all lag on this move. This move has decent knockback, but isn't really a killing move. You can combo into it if the springboard hits them. Some Sonic players short-hop into a dair as a "get away from me!" sort of move, and it works well enough when it connects. Do NOT miss with this move if you're not going to cancel the lag, you will get punished. Due to Sonic's great speed, and the springboard acting as a projectile, you can use this with little fear of being punished, as long as you don't spam it or do it predictably.
Sonic can hit their shield, and immediately grab, jab, or taunt, mmhmmm. If the move fully finishes before passing an edge you can grab it. Failing to be high enough will get you stuck under the stage or force you to use your spring to recover. Consider attacking opponents when recovering low by mixing this up with your other possible aerial attacks. Remember that you have your homing attack and spring as two possible options to help you get back to the stage.
The only time this attack appear different is when you use it while your momentum during a tumble (most likely from an opponents successful attack) cancels the attack. This causes Sonic to use the attack without more or less going anywhere. The move is still able to do damage in this state. It logically makes sense that being able to use this right away would make Sonic probably too good at recovering/avoiding gimps.
One more thing to note: If you're pushed off the stage while dsmashing, it cancels into a dair. Be careful about this.
No Cancel on dair - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -With Cancel:
Back Air (bair) Does 13%(!)
The last of Sonic's holy trinity of killing moves, the blue blur kicks backward, with good knockback and amazing damage (for an aerial). Unfortunately, since this is one of your kill moves, you shouldn't be using it to wrack up too much damage, unless you plan on killing with the others. Then again, it doesn't kill until 129% from the middle of FD with no DI, but you'll rarely be attacking with it from the middle of the stage, so it's really your choice on how you want to use this move. It can be chained together, ala Jigglypuff's WoP in Melee, but only when they DI towards you at mid-percents, or don't DI at all. Still, I've landed more than one double bair before in my short time playing. People that see it tend to assume you're trying to kill, and DI up and towards it, to survive, netting you one more bair. Good move for setting up tech-chasing at lower percents.
Follow up either of the spin shots with this move to give yourself more ways of connecting it. This move also is great for stage spiking. When your opponent uses a tether recovery or becomes careless near the edge run off and throws this baby their direction to generate a stage spike. It is also commonly used when an opponent shield your many spin specials and attempts to pursuit you. Oh and this move has 0 lag at all times... sweeeet.
The following examples can demonstrate how much easier it will make your life:
-fair/bair without moving horizontally (forwards/backwards)
-maximizing your horizontal movement backwards with a fair or forwards with a bair
-executing your uair without using your second jump by accident
-executing your uair/fair/bair simultaneously with your fast fall
Just remember that you must let the c-stick return to neutral before doing any attack. Flick, don’t hold.
All of Sonic’s specials have uses for recovery and on the offensive. They can be used in many combinations. Experiment and see what works best for you. Above all else, never fall into predictable patterns.
Neutral B- Homing Attack - Does 8%, with great knockback angles and range
Full charge-up- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - With Cancel
This move really was a disappointment originally. Massive charge lag, lag afterwards, easy to dodge, shield, whatever. You can cut down on the charge lag (press B during chargeup)making it far more versatile. It can be used as a recovery move and a follow up after missing or connecting with any aerial or spin attack. Once you being using the cancel version, it may become useful to let it fully charge from time to time, throwing off your opponents timing. If you know they're about to try to grab/smash/whatever, you can short-hop into this for a surprise attack. Depending on who your opponent is you can use this move to pursuit them off stage. It works exceptionally well off stage with large characters like D3 and Charizard. At the very least, be careful with it. Using this move too much and improperly will leave you open to attacks or send you further away from the stage than you would like.
*Working on a better analysis of range/success of hit
The following is a rough idea of some stuff I did today with Sonic against a Snake on some various types of custom stages. I made sure Sonic was always facing snake and that snake was always in the same position. Some general findings (probably known by others too):
-Facing opponent has slightly larger attack range
-I'm pretty sure it is dependent on where the homing attack launches from, not where it starts (in other words canceling can make or break it registering depending on placement)
-If you drew a rectangle around your opponent the attack always tries to pass through a specific corner depending on your location (thus you sometimes are on a path to hit and other times you are not.
[noparse]Red - attack will not be in range of picking up opponent
Yellow - attack will target, but most likely miss
Green - attack will most likely connect
Needs to be modified
[/noparse]
Up B- Springboard (Sproing!) - Does 4%, with decent knockback and a great angle.
Sonic's ultimate recovery move, and instrumental to making Sonic tournament worthy. A springboard appears out of nowhere, and launches Sonic high enough to make G&W jealous. Sonic can attack/dodge shortly afterwards, preventing him from being a sitting duck. If used on the ground, the springboard remains for a short period of time or until you use the move again. Any opponents that lands on it will be launched in a similar fashion. It can be used to set traps, as you can set one, let the opponent land on it, then follow them into the air with a new Up B, and either uair, bair, fair, or whatever. Not a set combo, by any means, but still an option.
If you use this in the air, the springboard tumbles, and acts as a projectile. This move is great for cancelling dairs, gimping recoveries, killing off the top with uair at OBSCENELY low percents (80%, anyone?), and just good-old-fashioned recovery. Do your best to pull off uair/bair kills and springboard spiking when presented with the chance. Mix up the timing of when you release an aerial after chasing your opponent otherwise your opponent will easily dodge your attack. If they DI properly you won’t be able to simply spring up. Wait and see where they are going before you take to the skies. You can increase the lateral range on this move by executing a fair or bair once it has launched you in the air. This move is one more reason why Sonic can comfortably chase opponents offstage without fear of not making it back.
--Thanks to Tenki--
Summary: When either released spin special hits the ground , they turn into a Spin Dash Roll. A grounded Spin Dash (Charge) is already on the ground (duh?), so it automatically becomes a Spin Dash Roll.
SD = Spin Dash (Hop) (Side-B)
SC = Spin Dash (Charge) (Down-B)
SDR = Spin Dash Roll (this is common to both SD and SC)
SDJ = Spin Dash Jump (jump attack that can be done out of a SDR)
ASC = Aerial Spin Charge (air Down-B)
Note: If a SDR goes to the edge of a platform, it becomes an ASC and assumes its properties. Hence a SD can become an ASC, but only after touching the ground.
So here's how it works
Side B: (Aerial or ground)
SD (hop) -> SDR (-> SDJ)
SD (hop) -> jump cancel (while still in air)
SD (charge) -> Spinshot (perfectly timed jump cancel which is why your second jump is used)
Down B:
Ground
SDR (-> SDJ)
Aerial
ASC -> SDR (->SDJ)
ASC -> jump cancel
ASC -> SpinShot (perfectly timed jump cancel which is why your second jump is used)
ASC -> Shield
Properties, whuh?
Yes, believe it or not, there are differences in the moves, and it's not just that side-B hops and down-B doesn't. It becomes more obvious in their aerial versions. Down B and Side B record how much charge the moves have and whether or not you had a double jump when you started charging. It passes this information on to the next part until the move ends - which is the roll running out of spin, a Spin Dash Jump, or you falling to your death.
Move properties:
ohcraps, cs references incoming.
Underlines: Defining features (SD/ASC only)
Italics: Is related to interaction between 'phase changes', or when they flow into other moves.
SD (hop): (Creates charge data)
- 5-6% constant damage
- Can be jump cancelled if you have a jump to spare
- Has high priority and/or invincibility/dodge frames at the beginning of the hop
- Easier to do spinshot out of this move's charge, either from ground or air.
- Temporary attack hitbox that goes away after enough time (1-2 seconds, until you go under the height of when you started the hop)
- Knocks the opponent slightly upwards.
- Does not allow aerial attacks if double jump was used.
- Turns into SDR upon contact with ground
- Cannot be cancelled by shield on landing.
- Passes charge and 'remaining jumps' data to the SDR that follows.
ASC: (Creates charge data)
- Can be jump cancelled if you have a jump to spare
- Has a multiple hit combo:
- - First hit: 7-11 damage (damage based on velocity)
- - - High knockback that can KO at higher %'s
- - Follow-up hit: 7-10 damage (don't know what changes it)
- - - Lower knockback that sets up for a DJ aerial.
- Does not allow aerial attacks if double jump was used.
- Turns into SDR on contact with ground
- Can be cancelled by shield on landing.
- Passes charge and 'remaining jumps' data to the SDR that follows.
SDR: (takes in: charge data, 'remaining jumps')
- 7-10 damage, 7 on turn-around.
- Combos naturally into a SDJ if attack or jump is pressed.
- Charge data is taken in from the side B/ down B to determine speed and damage of the roll
- Passes 'remaining jumps' data to SDJ
SDJ: (takes in: 'remaining jumps')
- 7 damage (constant damage/knockback)
- Has higher height than normal jump
- Travels horizontally quicker in midair
- Has an attack hitbox until it a little bit after it starts to go down.
- If there are still remaining jumps (double jump), can be jump cancelled (either started on floor or in air without double jumping).
- Can be cancelled by an aerial at any time.
So if that made any sense, I think the SDR and SDJ are treated as separate moves that take in charge / 'remaining jump' data from the side B or down B. Side B's "true form" can really just be the hop, and Down-B's "true form" is the aerial version; The rolling attack is just tacked on to them. >_> not sure if it has any actual application in metagame but it's just what I noticed, and I felt like putting it down somewhere. Hopefully, it will help explain some things about the moves that you may or may not have been wondering about.
Side B- Spin Dash (hop) - Hits once for 5%, or twice for 14%, if JCed at the right time. Should always be followed up with an aerial.
Ever played against Metal/Mecha Sonic in Sonic 2 or SnK? This is one of his attacks. Sonic bounces once, then proceeds to SpinDash forward at a decent rate. You have two options for stopping this move from being unleashed fully. Either shield before the charge animation finishes (even if you start in the air, you need to land/shield before the animation stops) or jump while holding the special button to make Sonic spin jump straight up. This is great for confusing your opponents and preventing yourself from rolling into a bad situation. You can also start a SpinDash from a full sprint (Sonic will cover the same ground that shielding a dash does).
When you connect it can combo into virtually any aerial. It also scales walls slightly (think Yoshi's Side B), and can kind of be used for an offense-oriented recovery. Decent move, but it suffers from low priority (like all of Sonic's moves), and predictability. Can jump-cancel instantly for recovery mindgames, as well as combo into the springboard. Pretty nifty.
Down B- Spin Dash (Charge)
There are mixed preferences over which spin special is better. You should obviously incorporate both. This one goes straight across the ground, and can be turned around. Mash b when you're charging it for more speed. It can be jump cancelled to hit twice, as well as combo into aerials. Great move, but suffers from Sonic's traditional problem of having no priority. Decent for tech-chasing. As with the SpinDash, this move can blow through certain projectiles, such as the Waddle Dees and bananas, but it will not cancel Falco/wolf projectiles. Consider recovering with this move sometimes. Its faster startup and straight motion can throw off timing and often confuse opponents if you mix it up with varieties of the SpinDash. This move can hit an opponent’s shield multiple times if contacted while still airborne and has more knock back in this instant. If JCed at the right time. Should always be followed up with an aerial.
Pressing up just after releasing the spin dash (hop) results in a sling shot style jump. Just missing the proper timing results in a normal jump. You must have your second jump to do this successfully. This is great for quickly recovering back onto the stage/edge before your opponent can capitalize on the situation. Do not fall into the habit of always recovering with this move. If your opponent is smart they will more than likely spike you.
You can also SpinShot out of an ASC the moment it starts in the air (from SC) or when leaving a platform. As always this requires and uses your second jump.
I don't have all the pictures yet/ I'm going to change some of them
Feel free to PM/post in this topic for changes =)
Code:
[noparse]
[CENTER][COLOR="lime"][SIZE="3"]-A Moves-[/SIZE][/COLOR][/CENTER]
[COLOR="SeaGreen"][SIZE="2"]Neutral Standing A - Does 2%[/SIZE][/COLOR]
[img]http://www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com/sonic/a.png[/img]
A quick jab, useful for interrupting grabs, starting Sonic's gatling, or just clash-cancelling into the ftilt. Lags as Sonic withdraws his fist, but hard to punish when it connects. A few times, my friend's Lucas was able to jab back, but when I reacted properly, I could jab to clash cancel his next one, and follow it up with an ftilt. If shielded, you can be grabbed. Sonic moves slightly forward for this, so I guess you could use it for a kind of "footsy" game, ala SF. If you're going to do that, though, try using ftilt instead.
[COLOR="SeaGreen"][SIZE="2"]Neutral Standing A, A - Does 4% (2 for each jab)[/SIZE][/COLOR]
[img]http://www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com/sonic/aa.png[/img]
The jab, followed up by another, same basic uses. I guess if you connect with this, you could cancel it and grab, assuming they shield. Really though, you should just finish the gatling to start up some tech-chasing. Lags as Sonic withdraws his fist, but impossible to punish when it connects. If shielded, you can be grabbed. Again, he moves forward, but I'm not sure if it's as much.
[COLOR="seagreen"][SIZE="2"]Neutral Standing A, A, A - Does 7% (2 for each jab, 3 for kick)[/SIZE][/COLOR]
[img]http://www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com/sonic/aaa.png[/img]
Sonic's gatling combo. Two quick jabs, followed up by a kick. Connect with this, and you should be able to start tech-chasing. If they DI weird, they'll remain standing, or may end up slightly in the air. I've tried to follow both of these up with fairs, but the lag after the kick makes it hard/impossible, currently. I don't have anyone to play as I write this, but I think a dashed usmash ~may~ be a possible follow up, if they're in the air. If you connect with a jab, please just finish the gatling, Sonic relies heavily on tech-chasing currently.
[SIZE="2"][COLOR="SeaGreen"]Dash attack Does 4%[/COLOR][/SIZE]
[img]http://www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com/sonic/dashA.png[/img]
Sonic curls up into a ball and spins across a length that spans just shy of 1/2 of FD. Really good range, good cool-down, decent priority, and the ability to chain into ftilt at certain percents all make this move viable for approaches. It has very little "priority", but if it clash-cancels, just start up either the gatling or the ftilt, and you just netted yourself a tech-chase. Can be used to start spacing and grabbing games, but shouldn't be spammed too much. If they see it coming, you're going to get hit with something strong. If this attack leads you to the edge of the stage Sonic will roll in place until the attack finishes.
*Use the c-stick (down on smash setting) to execute your dash attack earlier than you could with A
[COLOR="lime"][SIZE="3"][CENTER]-Tilts-[/CENTER][/SIZE][/COLOR]
[COLOR="seagreen"][SIZE="2"]Forward Tilt (ftilt, horse kick) - Does 11%[/SIZE][/COLOR]
[img]http://www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com/sonic/ftilt.png[/img]
Saved my favourite tilt for last. Sonic does a horse-kick, placing his hands on the ground and flinging his legs forward. This seems to be one of Sonic's few moves with actual "priority", having clashed with a few smashes, and beaten every jab it has come across (sans possibly Ike's, dunno for sure on that one) so far. This is Sonic's best footsy/spacing move, and I need to start replacing psychic fsmashes with this move, to better preserve the Fsmash's killing power. Chains into itself, and can knock the enemy down to start tech-chasing opportunities. Very little lag after the hitbox is gone, and due to it's range, it's pretty hard to punish. Loses to PK Fire, but what doesn't? It might have the same range as fsmash, or even more, but it lacks the amazing pullback/KO of that move. Still, one of my favorite moves.
[COLOR="seagreen"][SIZE="2"]Up Tilt (utilt) - Does 14% (that's like one of his smashes. =D!)[/SIZE][/COLOR]
[img]http://www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com/sonic/utilt.png[/img]
Sonic kicks upwards twice. Think of CF's usmash, and you've got Sonic's utilt. Chains into itself for a total of two hits, and pops the opponent into the air with good knockback. My biggest problem with this move is Sonic's inability to pursue afterwards, due to the lag. Possibly good for using against the back of an opponent's shield, but I dunno yet. Only time I've really used this move is after the dtilt. It's not bad, but it's really hard to incorporate, currently. Not "laggy", per se, as there is very little lag after the hitbox is gone, but not something you want to run up and do to an opponent's face. The biggest boon of it is how much damage it does.
[SIZE="2"][COLOR="SeaGreen"]Down Tilt (dtilt) - Does 6%[/COLOR][/SIZE]
[img]http://www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com/sonic/dtilt.png[/img]
Sonic sweeps the ground with his foot, moving forward slightly as he does so. Pops the opponent up slightly, and can chain into utilt in training mode at lower percents. At higher percents, it can be followed up with fair, or various other moves. Lags about 3-4 frames more than the last hit of his gatling. Decent poke, but if it misses, you're probably going to get shield-grabbed, or punished in some other form, if you don't space properly. Good for initiating footsy. Probably one of his better moves, but I'm having trouble incorporating it currently. Don't use against projectile spammers like Dedede unless you're sure it'll hit, because you will get Waddle Dees to the face, or, worse yet, Chain Grabbed. D:
[SIZE="3"][COLOR="Lime"][CENTER]-Smashes-[/CENTER][/COLOR][/SIZE]
[COLOR="seagreen"][SIZE="2"]Forward Smash (fsmash, Soniiiic Puuuuuuunch!) - Does 14 %[/SIZE][/COLOR]
[img]http://www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com/sonic/fsmash.png[/img]
Sonic pulls back, winds up, and punches. This is your primary killing move. It kills as early as 114% from the middle of FD with no DI. Can be linked from various things, such as a low percent uthrow based on DI (psychic fsmash), but I'm thinking ftilt would be better off in this situation. Has good priority, but I should stress that the best part of this move is how Sonic pulls back. I've dodged numerous dash attacks and fsmashes with this move, just to hit them back with a partially charged attack of my own. Very little cool-down lag, which means that you can kind use it to keep opponents at bay. You can increase the range by smashing forward/backward just before executing it with the c-stick (on smash). It can’t be stressed how much you need this move, and not to spam it like you would Marth's.
[COLOR="SeaGreen"][SIZE="2"]Up Smash (usmash) - Hits 8 times for a total of 14%[/SIZE][/COLOR]
[img]http://www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com/sonic/usmash.png[/img]
The most utility of Sonic's smashes, due to being able to do it out of a dash, and having decent priority/follow-up options. Sonic gets into a stance, then does an upwards spin, making him invincible to attacks below it. He launches himself to an area just above his head, so this seems to be a viable option if you can manage to initiate footsy with an opponent. I'm going to be working on using this move to dodge and counter other moves, so pay attention to this particular smash for updates. Also, this move eats shields pretty well, but usually you’ll find yourself in a grab after it is blocked. It can shield poke decently, given its odd hitbox.
[SIZE="2"][COLOR="SeaGreen"]Down Smash (dsmash) Does 12%[/COLOR][/SIZE]
[img]http://www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com/sonic/dsmash.png[/img]
Sonic SpinDashes back and forth over an area, shrinking to about half his height. This can be used to dodge higher placed aerials and counters if used properly? Sonic first rolls forwards then backwards before subtly moving forwards and back again. There are three possible chances to hit (the very last movement is just an animation) making this a good move when your opponent attempts to roll or spot dodge. It should be noted that on the 3rd part of the dsmash, the knockback is significantly reduced, but allows for tech-chasing to start. Furthermore, being aware of which way you face allows you to “dodge” an opponent and then connect with the second hit. One of his better moves, with a few KO options. It is best incorporated against side-steppers, due to how long it stays out. Its similar appearance to spin specials can sometimes fool opponents.
It should be noted that starting this move on the edge of a stage/platform pushes Sonic away from the edge “increasing” the range of the attack. You have slightly better range if you face away from the stage when executing it. Starts killing from the middle of FD at about 120%, given no DI. Avoid spamming this as with all smash attacks.
[SIZE="3"][COLOR="Lime"][CENTER]-Throws-[/CENTER][/COLOR][/SIZE]
[COLOR="SeaGreen"][SIZE="2"]Jab - Does 3% per knee[/SIZE][/COLOR]
[img]http://www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com/sonic/jab.png[/img]
Sonic knees the opponent. It is very easy to break grabs at low percents, so you should save this for later, if you plan on using it, ever.
[COLOR="SeaGreen"][SIZE="2"]Back Throw (bthrow) - Does 8%[/SIZE][/COLOR]
[img]http://www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com/sonic/bgrab.png[/img]
Okay, before I describe this move, I want to let you in on something. This move becomes a thousand times better when you say "Gooooooooo that way!" as you do it. Seriously, I'm not joking. I think it does like... 20% more or something.
With that out of the way, Sonic grabs them and rolls backwards, before releasing them. This move sets up well for edgeguarding, and is just fun in general.
[COLOR="seagreen"][SIZE="2"]Forward Throw (fthrow) - Hits twice (wtf?) for 9%
(Does 100000% if you say "It's gotta be the shoes" when it hits, but you have to do it frame-perfect.)[/SIZE][/COLOR]
[img]http://www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com/sonic/fgrab.png[/img]
Sonic grabs the opponent (duh), and kicks them skyward. This move [i]can[/i] be followed up with a fair, but I haven't experimented with it as much as I should, primarily because I have to fight the psychic brats, and they can pop out aerials really fast. More on it later.
[COLOR="seagreen"][SIZE="2"]Up Throw (uthrow) - Hits twice for 12%, this throw rocks.[/SIZE][/COLOR]
[img]http://www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com/sonic/ugrab.png[/img]
Either Sonic's 1st or 2nd best throw, tangent on match-ups. Sonic grabs the enemy, then places them on his back, using his spines to launch them into the air. You can then (typically) follow up with a uair (which even counts as a combo in training mode, in certain cases), fair, or [i]possibly[/i] even a bair. This throw is good for starting aerial combos/chases, seriously. If you're fighting a big character, don't even hesitate to use it, because you can typically get at least 1 uair after, if not two, which ends up doing a whopping 30%.
[COLOR="seagreen"][SIZE="2"]Down Throw (dthrow) - Hits for 5%[/SIZE][/COLOR]
[img]http://www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com/sonic/dgrab.png[/img]
Quite possibly the most utility move Sonic possesses. He grabs the opponent, then spin-dashes on top of them. This move allows for tech-chasing, which is something I believe Sonic will come to excel at. If you know you're fighting someone who likes to shield when they're unsure, follow this up with another dthrow, and watch the percent pile up. I find myself doing dthrow, tech-chase, uthrow, uair more frequently than anything ever, and it really helps Sonic wrack up damage quick. Keep this move near and dear to your heart.
[COLOR="lime"][CENTER][SIZE="3"]-Aerials (in the sky)-[/SIZE][/CENTER][/COLOR]
[img]http://www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com/sonic/nair.png[/img]
[img]http://www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com/sonic/uair.png[/img]
[SIZE="2"][COLOR="SeaGreen"]Forward Air (fair) - Does anywhere from 6-9%, it seems. On smaller characters, it won't chain when they're on the ground until higher percents, and will only do 3%.[/COLOR][/SIZE]
[img]http://www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com/sonic/fair.png[/img]
Sonic players around the world seem to love this move, and for good reason. Decent priority, good knockback, multiple hits, combos well, definitely Sonic's most appreciated aerial. Also, if you SH this, but don't fast fall, you cancel any lag on it. Definitely a bonus. It should be noted that, on certain stages/percents, you can actually take the opponent all the way off the stage, and even to their death, with nothing but this (very situational). This move is really good for edge-guarding. Really good.
*Still checkin out some stuff with this
[SIZE="2"][COLOR="SeaGreen"]Down Air (dair) Does 8%[/COLOR][/SIZE]
[img]http://www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com/sonic/dair.png[/img]
Okay, this move is a recycled move. Like ZSS' dair, Sonic kicks downward and plummets to the ground… or his doom. This move is great for getting to the ground, or pressuring the opponent's shield. While the dair is laggy as hell, if you short hop + up-b (or up-b from the ground to the fullest height), then dair, it will cancel all lag on this move. This move has decent knockback, but isn't really a killing move. You can [i]combo[/i] into it if the springboard hits them. Some Sonic players short-hop into a dair as a "get away from me!" sort of move, and it works well enough when it connects. Do NOT miss with this move if you're not going to cancel the lag, you will get punished. Due to Sonic's great speed, and the springboard acting as a projectile, you can use this with little fear of being punished, as long as you don't spam it or do it predictably.
Sonic can hit their shield, and immediately grab, jab, or taunt, mmhmmm. If the move fully finishes before passing an edge you can grab it. Failing to be high enough will get you stuck under the stage or force you to use your spring to recover. Consider attacking opponents when recovering low by mixing this up with your other possible aerial attacks. Remember that you have your homing attack and spring as two possible options to help you get back to the stage.
The only time this attack appear different is when you use it while your momentum during a tumble (most likely from an opponents successful attack) cancels the attack. This causes Sonic to use the attack without more or less going anywhere. The move is still able to do damage in this state. It logically makes sense that being able to use this right away would make Sonic probably too good at recovering/avoiding gimps.
One more thing to note: If you're pushed off the stage while dsmashing, it cancels into a dair. Be careful about this.
[B]No Cancel on dair[/B] - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -[B]With Cancel:[/B]
[img]http://www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com/sonic/dairNoCancel.png[/img][img]http://www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com/sonic/dairCancel.png[/img]
[COLOR="SeaGreen"][SIZE="2"]Back Air (bair) Does 13%(!)[/SIZE][/COLOR]
[img]http://www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com/sonic/bair.png[/img]
The last of Sonic's holy trinity of killing moves, the blue blur kicks backward, with good knockback and amazing damage (for an aerial). Unfortunately, since this is one of your kill moves, you shouldn't be using it to wrack up too much damage, unless you plan on killing with the others. Then again, it doesn't kill until 129% from the middle of FD with no DI, but you'll rarely be attacking with it from the middle of the stage, so it's really your choice on how you want to use this move. It [i]can[/i] be chained together, ala Jigglypuff's WoP in Melee, but only when they DI towards you at mid-percents, or don't DI at all. Still, I've landed more than one double bair before in my short time playing. People that see it tend to assume you're trying to kill, and DI up and towards it, to survive, netting you one more bair. Good move for setting up tech-chasing at lower percents.
Follow up either of the spin shots with this move to give yourself more ways of connecting it. This move also is great for stage spiking. When your opponent uses a tether recovery or becomes careless near the edge run off and throws this baby their direction to generate a stage spike. It is also commonly used when an opponent shield your many spin specials and attempts to pursuit you. Oh and this move has 0 lag at all times... sweeeet.
[SIZE="3"][COLOR="Lime"][CENTER]-Making the most of your aerials-[/CENTER][/COLOR][/SIZE]
Sonic isn’t all that great at floating. You should consider incorporating the c-stick into your aerial game if you have not done so already. The basic idea is that you focus on your movement/spacing/DI with the joystick while you execute your non-neutral aerials with the c-stick. By no means should you always be using the c-stick for aerials (hitting down by accident can result in an unwanted dair).
The following examples can demonstrate how much easier it will make your life:
-fair/bair without moving horizontally (forwards/backwards)
-maximizing your horizontal movement backwards with a fair or forwards with a bair
-executing your uair without using your second jump by accident
-executing your uair/fair/bair simultaneously with your fast fall
[COLOR="Yellow"]Just remember that you must let the c-stick return to neutral before doing any attack. Flick, don’t hold.[/COLOR]
[COLOR="lime"][SIZE="3"][CENTER]-Specials-[/CENTER][/SIZE][/COLOR]
All of Sonic’s specials have uses for recovery and on the offensive. They can be used in many combinations. Experiment and see what works best for you. Above all else, never fall into predictable patterns.
[COLOR="seagreen"][SIZE="2"]Neutral B- Homing Attack - Does 8%, with great knockback angles and range[/SIZE][/COLOR]
Full charge-up- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - With Cancel
[img]http://www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com/sonic/home.png[/img][img]http://www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com/sonic/homeCancel.png[/img]
This move really was a disappointment originally. Massive charge lag, lag afterwards, easy to dodge, shield, whatever. You can cut down on the charge lag (press B during chargeup)making it far more versatile. It can be used as a recovery move and a follow up after missing or connecting with any aerial or spin attack. Once you being using the cancel version, it may become useful to let it fully charge from time to time, throwing off your opponents timing. If you know they're about to try to grab/smash/whatever, you can short-hop into this for a surprise attack. Depending on who your opponent is you can use this move to pursuit them off stage. It works exceptionally well off stage with large characters like D3 and Charizard. At the very least, be careful with it. Using this move too much and improperly will leave you open to attacks or send you further away from the stage than you would like.
[COLOR="Lime"]*Working on a better analysis of range/success of hit[/COLOR]
The following is a rough idea of some stuff I did today with Sonic against a Snake on some various types of custom stages. I made sure Sonic was always facing snake and that snake was always in the same position. Some general findings (probably known by others too):
-Facing opponent has slightly larger attack range
-I'm pretty sure it is dependent on where the homing attack launches from, not where it starts (in other words canceling can make or break it registering depending on placement)
-If you drew a rectangle around your opponent the attack always tries to pass through a specific corner depending on your location (thus you sometimes are on a path to hit and other times you are not.
Red - attack will not be in range of picking up opponent
Yellow - attack will target, but most likely miss
Green - attack will most likely connect
[img]http://www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com/sonic/attackRange.png[/img]
Needs to be modified
[COLOR="seagreen"][SIZE="2"]Up B- Springboard (Sproing!) - Does 4%, with decent knockback and a great angle.[/SIZE][/COLOR]
[img]http://www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com/sonic/ubground.png[/img]
Sonic's ultimate recovery move, and instrumental to making Sonic tournament worthy. A springboard appears out of nowhere, and launches Sonic high enough to make G&W jealous. Sonic can attack/dodge shortly afterwards, preventing him from being a sitting duck. If used on the ground, the springboard remains for a short period of time or until you use the move again. Any opponents that lands on it will be launched in a similar fashion. It can be used to set traps, as you can set one, let the opponent land on it, then follow them into the air with a new Up B, and either uair, bair, fair, or whatever. Not a set combo, by any means, but still an option.
If you use this in the air, the springboard tumbles, and acts as a projectile. This move is great for cancelling dairs, gimping recoveries, killing off the top with uair at OBSCENELY low percents (80%, anyone?), and just good-old-fashioned recovery. Do your best to pull off uair/bair kills and springboard spiking when presented with the chance. Mix up the timing of when you release an aerial after chasing your opponent otherwise your opponent will easily dodge your attack. If they DI properly you won’t be able to simply spring up. Wait and see where they are going before you take to the skies. You can increase the lateral range on this move by executing a fair or bair once it has launched you in the air. This move is one more reason why Sonic can comfortably chase opponents offstage without fear of not making it back.
[COLOR="lime"][SIZE="2"][CENTER]-Spin Special Terminalogy-[/CENTER][/SIZE]
--Thanks to Tenki--[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Yellow"]Summary: When either released spin special hits the ground , they turn into a Spin Dash Roll. A grounded Spin Dash (Charge) is already on the ground (duh?), so it automatically becomes a Spin Dash Roll. [/COLOR]
SD = Spin Dash (Hop) (Side-B)
SC = Spin Dash (Charge) (Down-B)
SDR = Spin Dash Roll (this is common to both SD and SC)
SDJ = Spin Dash Jump (jump attack that can be done out of a SDR)
ASC = Aerial Spin Charge (air Down-B)
Note: If a SDR goes to the edge of a platform, it becomes an ASC and assumes its properties. Hence a SD can become an ASC, but only after touching the ground.
So here's how it works
[U]Side B: (Aerial or ground) [/U]
SD (hop) -> SDR (-> SDJ)
SD (hop) -> jump cancel (while still in air)
SD (charge) -> Spinshot (perfectly timed jump cancel which is why your second jump is used)
Down B:
[U]Ground[/U]
SDR (-> SDJ)
[U]Aerial[/U]
ASC -> SDR (->SDJ)
ASC -> jump cancel
ASC -> SpinShot (perfectly timed jump cancel which is why your second jump is used)
ASC -> Shield
Properties, whuh?
Yes, believe it or not, there are differences in the moves, and it's not just that side-B hops and down-B doesn't. [COLOR="yellow"]It becomes more obvious in their aerial versions[/COLOR]. Down B and Side B record how much charge the moves have and whether or not you had a double jump when you started charging. It passes this information on to the next part until the move ends - which is the roll running out of spin, a Spin Dash Jump, or you falling to your death.
Move properties:
ohcraps, cs references incoming.
Underlines: Defining features (SD/ASC only)
Italics: Is related to interaction between 'phase changes', or when they flow into other moves.
SD (hop): (Creates charge data)
- 5-6% constant damage
- Can be jump cancelled if you have a jump to spare
- [U]Has high priority and/or invincibility/dodge frames at the beginning of the hop
- Easier to do spinshot out of this move's charge, either from ground or air.[/U]
- Temporary attack hitbox that goes away after enough time (1-2 seconds, until you go under the height of when you started the hop)
- Knocks the opponent slightly upwards.
- Does not allow aerial attacks if double jump was used.
[I]- Turns into SDR upon contact with ground
- Cannot be cancelled by shield on landing.
- [B]Passes charge and 'remaining jumps' data to the SDR that follows. [/I][/B]
ASC: (Creates charge data)
- Can be jump cancelled if you have a jump to spare
- [U]Has a multiple hit combo:[/U]
- - First hit: 7-11 damage [U](damage based on velocity) [/U]
- - - High knockback that can KO at higher %'s
- - Follow-up hit: 7-10 damage (don't know what changes it)
- - - Lower knockback that sets up for a DJ aerial.
- Does not allow aerial attacks if double jump was used.
[I]- Turns into SDR on contact with ground
- [U]Can be cancelled by shield on landing. [/U]
- [B]Passes charge and 'remaining jumps' data to the SDR that follows. [/I][/B]
SDR: (takes in: charge data, 'remaining jumps')
- 7-10 damage, 7 on turn-around.
- Combos naturally into a SDJ if attack or jump is pressed.
- Charge data is taken in from the side B/ down B to determine speed and damage of the roll
- Passes 'remaining jumps' data to SDJ
SDJ: (takes in: 'remaining jumps')
- 7 damage (constant damage/knockback)
- Has higher height than normal jump
- Travels horizontally quicker in midair
[I]- Has an attack hitbox until it a little bit after it starts to go down.
- If there are still remaining jumps (double jump), can be jump cancelled (either started on floor or in air without double jumping).
- [B]Can be cancelled by an aerial at any time. [/I][/B]
So if that made any sense, I think the SDR and SDJ are treated as separate moves that take in charge / 'remaining jump' data from the side B or down B. Side B's "true form" can really just be the hop, and Down-B's "true form" is the aerial version; The rolling attack is just tacked on to them. >_> not sure if it has any actual application in metagame but it's just what I noticed, and I felt like putting it down somewhere. Hopefully, it will help explain some things about the moves that you may or may not have been wondering about.
[COLOR="seagreen"][SIZE="3"]Side B- Spin Dash (hop) - Hits once for 5%, or twice for 14%, if JCed at the right time. Should always be followed up with an aerial.[/SIZE][/COLOR]
[img]http://www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com/sonic/fb.png[/img]
Ever played against Metal/Mecha Sonic in Sonic 2 or SnK? This is one of his attacks. Sonic bounces once, then proceeds to SpinDash forward at a decent rate. You have two options for stopping this move from being unleashed fully. Either shield before the charge animation finishes (even if you start in the air, you need to land/shield before the animation stops) or jump while holding the special button to make Sonic spin jump straight up. This is great for confusing your opponents and preventing yourself from rolling into a bad situation. You can also start a SpinDash from a full sprint (Sonic will cover the same ground that shielding a dash does).
When you connect it can combo into virtually any aerial. It also scales walls slightly (think Yoshi's Side B), and can kind of be used for an offense-oriented recovery. Decent move, but it suffers from low priority (like all of Sonic's moves), and predictability. Can jump-cancel instantly for recovery mindgames, as well as combo into the springboard. Pretty nifty.
[COLOR="seagreen"][SIZE="3"]Down B- Spin Dash (Charge) [/SIZE][/COLOR]
[img]http://www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com/sonic/db.png[/img]
There are mixed preferences over which spin special is better. You should obviously incorporate both. This one goes straight across the ground, and can be turned around. Mash b when you're charging it for more speed. It can be jump cancelled to hit twice, as well as combo into aerials. Great move, but suffers from Sonic's traditional problem of having no priority. Decent for tech-chasing. As with the SpinDash, this move can blow through certain projectiles, such as the Waddle Dees and bananas, but it will not cancel Falco/wolf projectiles. Consider recovering with this move sometimes. Its faster startup and straight motion can throw off timing and often confuse opponents if you mix it up with varieties of the SpinDash. This move can hit an opponent’s shield multiple times if contacted while still airborne and has more knock back in this instant. If JCed at the right time. Should always be followed up with an aerial.
[CENTER][COLOR="Lime"][SIZE="3"]-THE SPINSHOT[/SIZE][/COLOR][/CENTER]
This is great for both recoverying and for giving you multiple ways to make/close gaps. Aerial attacks and dodges, jump cancels and fast-falling can give you many options.
[img]http://www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com/sonic/fbSpinShotAir.png[/img][img]http://www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com/sonic/fbSpinShotLanding.png[/img]
Pressing up just after releasing the spin dash (hop) results in a sling shot style jump. Just missing the proper timing results in a normal jump. You must have your second jump to do this successfully. This is great for quickly recovering back onto the stage/edge before your opponent can capitalize on the situation. Do not fall into the habit of always recovering with this move. If your opponent is smart they will more than likely spike you.
You can also SpinShot out of an ASC the moment it starts in the air (from SC) or when leaving a platform. As always this requires and uses your second jump.
[/noparse]-A Moves-
Neutral Standing A - Does 2%
A quick jab, useful for interrupting grabs, starting Sonic's gatling, or just clash-cancelling into the ftilt. Lags as Sonic withdraws his fist, but hard to punish when it connects. A few times, my friend's Lucas was able to jab back, but when I reacted properly, I could jab to clash cancel his next one, and follow it up with an ftilt. If shielded, you can be grabbed. Sonic moves slightly forward for this, so I guess you could use it for a kind of "footsy" game, ala SF. If you're going to do that, though, try using ftilt instead.
Neutral Standing A, A - Does 4% (2 for each jab)
The jab, followed up by another, same basic uses. I guess if you connect with this, you could cancel it and grab, assuming they shield. Really though, you should just finish the gatling to start up some tech-chasing. Lags as Sonic withdraws his fist, but impossible to punish when it connects. If shielded, you can be grabbed. Again, he moves forward, but I'm not sure if it's as much.
Neutral Standing A, A, A - Does 7% (2 for each jab, 3 for kick)
Sonic's gatling combo. Two quick jabs, followed up by a kick. Connect with this, and you should be able to start tech-chasing. If they DI weird, they'll remain standing, or may end up slightly in the air. I've tried to follow both of these up with fairs, but the lag after the kick makes it hard/impossible, currently. I don't have anyone to play as I write this, but I think a dashed usmash ~may~ be a possible follow up, if they're in the air. If you connect with a jab, please just finish the gatling, Sonic relies heavily on tech-chasing currently.
Dash attack Does 4%
Sonic curls up into a ball and spins across a length that spans just shy of 1/2 of FD. Really good range, good cool-down, decent priority, and the ability to chain into ftilt at certain percents all make this move viable for approaches. It has very little "priority", but if it clash-cancels, just start up either the gatling or the ftilt, and you just netted yourself a tech-chase. Can be used to start spacing and grabbing games, but shouldn't be spammed too much. If they see it coming, you're going to get hit with something strong. If this attack leads you to the edge of the stage Sonic will roll in place until the attack finishes.
*Use the c-stick (down on smash setting) to execute your dash attack earlier than you could with A
-Tilts-
Forward Tilt (ftilt, horse kick) - Does 11%
Saved my favourite tilt for last. Sonic does a horse-kick, placing his hands on the ground and flinging his legs forward. This seems to be one of Sonic's few moves with actual "priority", having clashed with a few smashes, and beaten every jab it has come across (sans possibly Ike's, dunno for sure on that one) so far. This is Sonic's best footsy/spacing move, and I need to start replacing psychic fsmashes with this move, to better preserve the Fsmash's killing power. Chains into itself, and can knock the enemy down to start tech-chasing opportunities. Very little lag after the hitbox is gone, and due to it's range, it's pretty hard to punish. Loses to PK Fire, but what doesn't? It might have the same range as fsmash, or even more, but it lacks the amazing pullback/KO of that move. Still, one of my favorite moves.
Up Tilt (utilt) - Does 14% (that's like one of his smashes. =D!)
Sonic kicks upwards twice. Think of CF's usmash, and you've got Sonic's utilt. Chains into itself for a total of two hits, and pops the opponent into the air with good knockback. My biggest problem with this move is Sonic's inability to pursue afterwards, due to the lag. Possibly good for using against the back of an opponent's shield, but I dunno yet. Only time I've really used this move is after the dtilt. It's not bad, but it's really hard to incorporate, currently. Not "laggy", per se, as there is very little lag after the hitbox is gone, but not something you want to run up and do to an opponent's face. The biggest boon of it is how much damage it does.
Down Tilt (dtilt) - Does 6%
Sonic sweeps the ground with his foot, moving forward slightly as he does so. Pops the opponent up slightly, and can chain into utilt in training mode at lower percents. At higher percents, it can be followed up with fair, or various other moves. Lags about 3-4 frames more than the last hit of his gatling. Decent poke, but if it misses, you're probably going to get shield-grabbed, or punished in some other form, if you don't space properly. Good for initiating footsy. Probably one of his better moves, but I'm having trouble incorporating it currently. Don't use against projectile spammers like Dedede unless you're sure it'll hit, because you will get Waddle Dees to the face, or, worse yet, Chain Grabbed. D:
-Smashes-
Forward Smash (fsmash, Soniiiic Puuuuuuunch!) - Does 14 %
Sonic pulls back, winds up, and punches. This is your primary killing move. It kills as early as 114% from the middle of FD with no DI. Can be linked from various things, such as a low percent uthrow based on DI (psychic fsmash), but I'm thinking ftilt would be better off in this situation. Has good priority, but I should stress that the best part of this move is how Sonic pulls back. I've dodged numerous dash attacks and fsmashes with this move, just to hit them back with a partially charged attack of my own. Very little cool-down lag, which means that you can kind use it to keep opponents at bay. You can increase the range by smashing forward/backward just before executing it with the c-stick (on smash). It can’t be stressed how much you need this move, and not to spam it like you would Marth's.
Up Smash (usmash) - Hits 8 times for a total of 14%
The most utility of Sonic's smashes, due to being able to do it out of a dash, and having decent priority/follow-up options. Sonic gets into a stance, then does an upwards spin, making him invincible to attacks below it. He launches himself to an area just above his head, so this seems to be a viable option if you can manage to initiate footsy with an opponent. I'm going to be working on using this move to dodge and counter other moves, so pay attention to this particular smash for updates. Also, this move eats shields pretty well, but usually you’ll find yourself in a grab after it is blocked. It can shield poke decently, given its odd hitbox.
Down Smash (dsmash) Does 12%
Sonic SpinDashes back and forth over an area, shrinking to about half his height. This can be used to dodge higher placed aerials and counters if used properly? Sonic first rolls forwards then backwards before subtly moving forwards and back again. There are three possible chances to hit (the very last movement is just an animation) making this a good move when your opponent attempts to roll or spot dodge. It should be noted that on the 3rd part of the dsmash, the knockback is significantly reduced, but allows for tech-chasing to start. Furthermore, being aware of which way you face allows you to “dodge” an opponent and then connect with the second hit. One of his better moves, with a few KO options. It is best incorporated against side-steppers, due to how long it stays out. Its similar appearance to spin specials can sometimes fool opponents.
It should be noted that starting this move on the edge of a stage/platform pushes Sonic away from the edge “increasing” the range of the attack. You have slightly better range if you face away from the stage when executing it. Starts killing from the middle of FD at about 120%, given no DI. Avoid spamming this as with all smash attacks.
-Throws-
Jab - Does 3% per knee
Sonic knees the opponent. It is very easy to break grabs at low percents, so you should save this for later, if you plan on using it, ever.
Back Throw (bthrow) - Does 8%
Okay, before I describe this move, I want to let you in on something. This move becomes a thousand times better when you say "Gooooooooo that way!" as you do it. Seriously, I'm not joking. I think it does like... 20% more or something.
With that out of the way, Sonic grabs them and rolls backwards, before releasing them. This move sets up well for edgeguarding, and is just fun in general.
Forward Throw (fthrow) - Hits twice (wtf?) for 9%
(Does 100000% if you say "It's gotta be the shoes" when it hits, but you have to do it frame-perfect.)
Sonic grabs the opponent (duh), and kicks them skyward. This move can be followed up with a fair, but I haven't experimented with it as much as I should, primarily because I have to fight the psychic brats, and they can pop out aerials really fast. More on it later.
Up Throw (uthrow) - Hits twice for 12%, this throw rocks.
Either Sonic's 1st or 2nd best throw, tangent on match-ups. Sonic grabs the enemy, then places them on his back, using his spines to launch them into the air. You can then (typically) follow up with a uair (which even counts as a combo in training mode, in certain cases), fair, or possibly even a bair. This throw is good for starting aerial combos/chases, seriously. If you're fighting a big character, don't even hesitate to use it, because you can typically get at least 1 uair after, if not two, which ends up doing a whopping 30%.
Down Throw (dthrow) - Hits for 5%
Quite possibly the most utility move Sonic possesses. He grabs the opponent, then spin-dashes on top of them. This move allows for tech-chasing, which is something I believe Sonic will come to excel at. If you know you're fighting someone who likes to shield when they're unsure, follow this up with another dthrow, and watch the percent pile up. I find myself doing dthrow, tech-chase, uthrow, uair more frequently than anything ever, and it really helps Sonic wrack up damage quick. Keep this move near and dear to your heart.
-Aerials (in the sky)-
Forward Air (fair) - Does anywhere from 6-9%, it seems. On smaller characters, it won't chain when they're on the ground until higher percents, and will only do 3%.
Sonic players around the world seem to love this move, and for good reason. Decent priority, good knockback, multiple hits, combos well, definitely Sonic's most appreciated aerial. Also, if you SH this, but don't fast fall, you cancel any lag on it. Definitely a bonus. It should be noted that, on certain stages/percents, you can actually take the opponent all the way off the stage, and even to their death, with nothing but this (very situational). This move is really good for edge-guarding. Really good.
*Still checkin out some stuff with this
Down Air (dair) Does 8%
Okay, this move is a recycled move. Like ZSS' dair, Sonic kicks downward and plummets to the ground… or his doom. This move is great for getting to the ground, or pressuring the opponent's shield. While the dair is laggy as hell, if you short hop + up-b (or up-b from the ground to the fullest height), then dair, it will cancel all lag on this move. This move has decent knockback, but isn't really a killing move. You can combo into it if the springboard hits them. Some Sonic players short-hop into a dair as a "get away from me!" sort of move, and it works well enough when it connects. Do NOT miss with this move if you're not going to cancel the lag, you will get punished. Due to Sonic's great speed, and the springboard acting as a projectile, you can use this with little fear of being punished, as long as you don't spam it or do it predictably.
Sonic can hit their shield, and immediately grab, jab, or taunt, mmhmmm. If the move fully finishes before passing an edge you can grab it. Failing to be high enough will get you stuck under the stage or force you to use your spring to recover. Consider attacking opponents when recovering low by mixing this up with your other possible aerial attacks. Remember that you have your homing attack and spring as two possible options to help you get back to the stage.
The only time this attack appear different is when you use it while your momentum during a tumble (most likely from an opponents successful attack) cancels the attack. This causes Sonic to use the attack without more or less going anywhere. The move is still able to do damage in this state. It logically makes sense that being able to use this right away would make Sonic probably too good at recovering/avoiding gimps.
One more thing to note: If you're pushed off the stage while dsmashing, it cancels into a dair. Be careful about this.
No Cancel on dair - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -With Cancel:
Back Air (bair) Does 13%(!)
The last of Sonic's holy trinity of killing moves, the blue blur kicks backward, with good knockback and amazing damage (for an aerial). Unfortunately, since this is one of your kill moves, you shouldn't be using it to wrack up too much damage, unless you plan on killing with the others. Then again, it doesn't kill until 129% from the middle of FD with no DI, but you'll rarely be attacking with it from the middle of the stage, so it's really your choice on how you want to use this move. It can be chained together, ala Jigglypuff's WoP in Melee, but only when they DI towards you at mid-percents, or don't DI at all. Still, I've landed more than one double bair before in my short time playing. People that see it tend to assume you're trying to kill, and DI up and towards it, to survive, netting you one more bair. Good move for setting up tech-chasing at lower percents.
Follow up either of the spin shots with this move to give yourself more ways of connecting it. This move also is great for stage spiking. When your opponent uses a tether recovery or becomes careless near the edge run off and throws this baby their direction to generate a stage spike. It is also commonly used when an opponent shield your many spin specials and attempts to pursuit you. Oh and this move has 0 lag at all times... sweeeet.
-Making the most of your aerials-
Sonic isn’t all that great at floating. You should consider incorporating the c-stick into your aerial game if you have not done so already. The basic idea is that you focus on your movement/spacing/DI with the joystick while you execute your non-neutral aerials with the c-stick. By no means should you always be using the c-stick for aerials (hitting down by accident can result in an unwanted dair). The following examples can demonstrate how much easier it will make your life:
-fair/bair without moving horizontally (forwards/backwards)
-maximizing your horizontal movement backwards with a fair or forwards with a bair
-executing your uair without using your second jump by accident
-executing your uair/fair/bair simultaneously with your fast fall
Just remember that you must let the c-stick return to neutral before doing any attack. Flick, don’t hold.
-Specials-
All of Sonic’s specials have uses for recovery and on the offensive. They can be used in many combinations. Experiment and see what works best for you. Above all else, never fall into predictable patterns.
Neutral B- Homing Attack - Does 8%, with great knockback angles and range
Full charge-up- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - With Cancel
This move really was a disappointment originally. Massive charge lag, lag afterwards, easy to dodge, shield, whatever. You can cut down on the charge lag (press B during chargeup)making it far more versatile. It can be used as a recovery move and a follow up after missing or connecting with any aerial or spin attack. Once you being using the cancel version, it may become useful to let it fully charge from time to time, throwing off your opponents timing. If you know they're about to try to grab/smash/whatever, you can short-hop into this for a surprise attack. Depending on who your opponent is you can use this move to pursuit them off stage. It works exceptionally well off stage with large characters like D3 and Charizard. At the very least, be careful with it. Using this move too much and improperly will leave you open to attacks or send you further away from the stage than you would like.
*Working on a better analysis of range/success of hit
The following is a rough idea of some stuff I did today with Sonic against a Snake on some various types of custom stages. I made sure Sonic was always facing snake and that snake was always in the same position. Some general findings (probably known by others too):
-Facing opponent has slightly larger attack range
-I'm pretty sure it is dependent on where the homing attack launches from, not where it starts (in other words canceling can make or break it registering depending on placement)
-If you drew a rectangle around your opponent the attack always tries to pass through a specific corner depending on your location (thus you sometimes are on a path to hit and other times you are not.
[noparse]Red - attack will not be in range of picking up opponent
Yellow - attack will target, but most likely miss
Green - attack will most likely connect
Needs to be modified
[/noparse]
Up B- Springboard (Sproing!) - Does 4%, with decent knockback and a great angle.
Sonic's ultimate recovery move, and instrumental to making Sonic tournament worthy. A springboard appears out of nowhere, and launches Sonic high enough to make G&W jealous. Sonic can attack/dodge shortly afterwards, preventing him from being a sitting duck. If used on the ground, the springboard remains for a short period of time or until you use the move again. Any opponents that lands on it will be launched in a similar fashion. It can be used to set traps, as you can set one, let the opponent land on it, then follow them into the air with a new Up B, and either uair, bair, fair, or whatever. Not a set combo, by any means, but still an option.
If you use this in the air, the springboard tumbles, and acts as a projectile. This move is great for cancelling dairs, gimping recoveries, killing off the top with uair at OBSCENELY low percents (80%, anyone?), and just good-old-fashioned recovery. Do your best to pull off uair/bair kills and springboard spiking when presented with the chance. Mix up the timing of when you release an aerial after chasing your opponent otherwise your opponent will easily dodge your attack. If they DI properly you won’t be able to simply spring up. Wait and see where they are going before you take to the skies. You can increase the lateral range on this move by executing a fair or bair once it has launched you in the air. This move is one more reason why Sonic can comfortably chase opponents offstage without fear of not making it back.
-Spin Special Terminalogy-
--Thanks to Tenki--
Summary: When either released spin special hits the ground , they turn into a Spin Dash Roll. A grounded Spin Dash (Charge) is already on the ground (duh?), so it automatically becomes a Spin Dash Roll.
SD = Spin Dash (Hop) (Side-B)
SC = Spin Dash (Charge) (Down-B)
SDR = Spin Dash Roll (this is common to both SD and SC)
SDJ = Spin Dash Jump (jump attack that can be done out of a SDR)
ASC = Aerial Spin Charge (air Down-B)
Note: If a SDR goes to the edge of a platform, it becomes an ASC and assumes its properties. Hence a SD can become an ASC, but only after touching the ground.
So here's how it works
Side B: (Aerial or ground)
SD (hop) -> SDR (-> SDJ)
SD (hop) -> jump cancel (while still in air)
SD (charge) -> Spinshot (perfectly timed jump cancel which is why your second jump is used)
Down B:
Ground
SDR (-> SDJ)
Aerial
ASC -> SDR (->SDJ)
ASC -> jump cancel
ASC -> SpinShot (perfectly timed jump cancel which is why your second jump is used)
ASC -> Shield
Properties, whuh?
Yes, believe it or not, there are differences in the moves, and it's not just that side-B hops and down-B doesn't. It becomes more obvious in their aerial versions. Down B and Side B record how much charge the moves have and whether or not you had a double jump when you started charging. It passes this information on to the next part until the move ends - which is the roll running out of spin, a Spin Dash Jump, or you falling to your death.
Move properties:
ohcraps, cs references incoming.
Underlines: Defining features (SD/ASC only)
Italics: Is related to interaction between 'phase changes', or when they flow into other moves.
SD (hop): (Creates charge data)
- 5-6% constant damage
- Can be jump cancelled if you have a jump to spare
- Has high priority and/or invincibility/dodge frames at the beginning of the hop
- Easier to do spinshot out of this move's charge, either from ground or air.
- Temporary attack hitbox that goes away after enough time (1-2 seconds, until you go under the height of when you started the hop)
- Knocks the opponent slightly upwards.
- Does not allow aerial attacks if double jump was used.
- Turns into SDR upon contact with ground
- Cannot be cancelled by shield on landing.
- Passes charge and 'remaining jumps' data to the SDR that follows.
ASC: (Creates charge data)
- Can be jump cancelled if you have a jump to spare
- Has a multiple hit combo:
- - First hit: 7-11 damage (damage based on velocity)
- - - High knockback that can KO at higher %'s
- - Follow-up hit: 7-10 damage (don't know what changes it)
- - - Lower knockback that sets up for a DJ aerial.
- Does not allow aerial attacks if double jump was used.
- Turns into SDR on contact with ground
- Can be cancelled by shield on landing.
- Passes charge and 'remaining jumps' data to the SDR that follows.
SDR: (takes in: charge data, 'remaining jumps')
- 7-10 damage, 7 on turn-around.
- Combos naturally into a SDJ if attack or jump is pressed.
- Charge data is taken in from the side B/ down B to determine speed and damage of the roll
- Passes 'remaining jumps' data to SDJ
SDJ: (takes in: 'remaining jumps')
- 7 damage (constant damage/knockback)
- Has higher height than normal jump
- Travels horizontally quicker in midair
- Has an attack hitbox until it a little bit after it starts to go down.
- If there are still remaining jumps (double jump), can be jump cancelled (either started on floor or in air without double jumping).
- Can be cancelled by an aerial at any time.
So if that made any sense, I think the SDR and SDJ are treated as separate moves that take in charge / 'remaining jump' data from the side B or down B. Side B's "true form" can really just be the hop, and Down-B's "true form" is the aerial version; The rolling attack is just tacked on to them. >_> not sure if it has any actual application in metagame but it's just what I noticed, and I felt like putting it down somewhere. Hopefully, it will help explain some things about the moves that you may or may not have been wondering about.
Side B- Spin Dash (hop) - Hits once for 5%, or twice for 14%, if JCed at the right time. Should always be followed up with an aerial.
Ever played against Metal/Mecha Sonic in Sonic 2 or SnK? This is one of his attacks. Sonic bounces once, then proceeds to SpinDash forward at a decent rate. You have two options for stopping this move from being unleashed fully. Either shield before the charge animation finishes (even if you start in the air, you need to land/shield before the animation stops) or jump while holding the special button to make Sonic spin jump straight up. This is great for confusing your opponents and preventing yourself from rolling into a bad situation. You can also start a SpinDash from a full sprint (Sonic will cover the same ground that shielding a dash does).
When you connect it can combo into virtually any aerial. It also scales walls slightly (think Yoshi's Side B), and can kind of be used for an offense-oriented recovery. Decent move, but it suffers from low priority (like all of Sonic's moves), and predictability. Can jump-cancel instantly for recovery mindgames, as well as combo into the springboard. Pretty nifty.
Down B- Spin Dash (Charge)
There are mixed preferences over which spin special is better. You should obviously incorporate both. This one goes straight across the ground, and can be turned around. Mash b when you're charging it for more speed. It can be jump cancelled to hit twice, as well as combo into aerials. Great move, but suffers from Sonic's traditional problem of having no priority. Decent for tech-chasing. As with the SpinDash, this move can blow through certain projectiles, such as the Waddle Dees and bananas, but it will not cancel Falco/wolf projectiles. Consider recovering with this move sometimes. Its faster startup and straight motion can throw off timing and often confuse opponents if you mix it up with varieties of the SpinDash. This move can hit an opponent’s shield multiple times if contacted while still airborne and has more knock back in this instant. If JCed at the right time. Should always be followed up with an aerial.
-THE SPINSHOT
This is great for both recoverying and for giving you multiple ways to make/close gaps. Aerial attacks and dodges, jump cancels and fast-falling can give you many options.
Pressing up just after releasing the spin dash (hop) results in a sling shot style jump. Just missing the proper timing results in a normal jump. You must have your second jump to do this successfully. This is great for quickly recovering back onto the stage/edge before your opponent can capitalize on the situation. Do not fall into the habit of always recovering with this move. If your opponent is smart they will more than likely spike you.
You can also SpinShot out of an ASC the moment it starts in the air (from SC) or when leaving a platform. As always this requires and uses your second jump.
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
Tru dat. Then again, that's like saying that if a certain mod hadn't been PMSing one day, this would still be stickied.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Mmm mods. The internets wasps.
*shot*
*shot*
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
nah pandas cool izzy. i asked him to come down here and clean this place up, and it give you a motive to update it.
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
You're a bad person, Memphis. Not even 2 months without an update, and I get ganked? D: D: D:
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
he did have a point.
but he is a panda....
but he is a ninja! ah ha!
but he does eat bamboo and kind of a dumb animal...
but he is a panda....
but he is a ninja! ah ha!
but he does eat bamboo and kind of a dumb animal...
darkNES386
Smash Lord
Jump to page 19... I'll put everythign together there, then we can copy paste on the first post as a code =) Take a look at what I started. I think it's smart to open this to everyone... so feel free to express your opinon.
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
I have it set to 40 posts per page. There are only 8 pages for me. What post number?
darkNES386
Smash Lord
Post number 282 .... I was hoping for something mores special
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
Intermeresting
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
yea dark. i should have some opinions tactics soon, i got really caught up at work today but expect somethin from me eventually
Side-B vs Down B
Someone test this out plos.
I think some (if not all) of these may be treated as separate moves in the stale move effect list, but I haven't done any testing yet:
Spin Dash (initial hop, Side B)
Spin Dash Roll (ground roll from both spin dash / spin charge)
Spin Dash Jump
Aerial Spin Charge+follow up hit(s)
------------------------------
Side B vs Down B: explained!
SD = Spin Dash (Side-B)
SC = Spin Charge (Down-B)
ASC = Aerial Spin Charge (air Down-B)
SDR = Spin Dash Roll (this is common to both SD and SC)
SDJ = Spin Dash Jump (jump attack that can be done out of a SDR)
So here's how it works
Side B: (Aerial or ground)
SD (hop) > SDR (> SDJ)
SD (hop) > double jump
SD (charge) > Spinshot (flick jump or attack almost exactly after you let go of the charge- low, fast aerial movement that takes away your double jump)
Ground Down B:
SDR (> SDJ)
Aerial Down B:
ASC > SDR (>SDJ)
ASC > double jump
ASC > Shield
Summary: Basically, when the moves hit the ground, they all turn into a Spin Dash Roll, which can be cancelled by a Spin Dash Jump. Grounded Spin Charge is already on the ground (duh?), so it automatically becomes a Spin Dash Roll. Aerial forms (side-B hop, aerial down-B) can be cancelled by a double jump, if you still have it.
Note: If a SDR goes to the edge of a platform, it becomes an ASC and assumes its properties.
Properties, whuh?
Yes, believe it or not, there are differences in the moves, and it's not just that side-B hops and down-B doesn't. It becomes more obvious in their aerial versions. Down B and Side B record how much charge the moves have and whether or not you had a double jump when you started charging. It passes this information on to the next part until the move ends - which is the roll running out of spin, a Spin Dash Jump, or you falling to your death.
Move properties:
ohcraps, cs references incoming.
Underlines: Defining features (SD/ASC only)
Italics: Is related to interaction between 'phase changes', or when they flow into other moves.
SD (hop): (Creates charge data)
- 5-6% constant damage
- Can be jump cancelled if you have a jump to spare
- Has high priority and/or invincibility/dodge frames at the beginning of the hop
- Easier to do spinshot out of this move's charge, either from ground or air.
- Temporary attack hitbox that goes away after enough time (1-2 seconds, until you go under the height of when you started the hop)
- Knocks the opponent slightly upwards.
- Does not allow aerial attacks if double jump was used.
- Turns into SDR upon contact with ground
- Cannot be cancelled by shield on landing.
- Passes charge and 'remaining jumps' data to the SDR that follows.
ASC: (Creates charge data)
- Can be jump cancelled if you have a jump to spare
- Has a multiple hit combo:
- - First hit: 7-11 damage (damage based on velocity)
- - - High knockback that can KO at higher %'s
- - Follow-up hit: 7-10 damage (don't know what changes it)
- - - Lower knockback that sets up for a DJ aerial.
- Does not allow aerial attacks if double jump was used.
- Turns into SDR on contact with ground
- Can be cancelled by shield on landing.
- Passes charge and 'remaining jumps' data to the SDR that follows.
SDR: (takes in: charge data, 'remaining jumps')
- 7-10 damage, 7 on turn-around.
- Combos naturally into a SDJ if attack or jump is pressed.
- Charge data is taken in from the side B/ down B to determine speed and damage of the roll
- Passes 'remaining jumps' data to SDJ
SDJ: (takes in: 'remaining jumps')
- 7 damage (constant damage/knockback)
- Has higher height than normal jump
- Travels horizontally quicker in midair
- Has an attack hitbox until it a little bit after it starts to go down.
- If there are still remaining jumps (double jump), can be jump cancelled (either started on floor or in air without double jumping).
- Can be cancelled by an aerial at any time.
So if that made any sense, I think the SDR and SDJ are treated as separate moves that take in charge / 'remaining jump' data from the side B or down B. Side B's "true form" can really just be the hop, and Down-B's "true form" is the aerial version; The rolling attack is just tacked on to them. >_> not sure if it has any actual application in metagame but it's just what I noticed, and I felt like putting it down somewhere. Hopefully, it will help explain some things about the moves that you may or may not have been wondering about.
Someone test this out plos.
I think some (if not all) of these may be treated as separate moves in the stale move effect list, but I haven't done any testing yet:
Spin Dash (initial hop, Side B)
Spin Dash Roll (ground roll from both spin dash / spin charge)
Spin Dash Jump
Aerial Spin Charge+follow up hit(s)
------------------------------
Side B vs Down B: explained!
SD = Spin Dash (Side-B)
SC = Spin Charge (Down-B)
ASC = Aerial Spin Charge (air Down-B)
SDR = Spin Dash Roll (this is common to both SD and SC)
SDJ = Spin Dash Jump (jump attack that can be done out of a SDR)
So here's how it works
Side B: (Aerial or ground)
SD (hop) > SDR (> SDJ)
SD (hop) > double jump
SD (charge) > Spinshot (flick jump or attack almost exactly after you let go of the charge- low, fast aerial movement that takes away your double jump)
Ground Down B:
SDR (> SDJ)
Aerial Down B:
ASC > SDR (>SDJ)
ASC > double jump
ASC > Shield
Summary: Basically, when the moves hit the ground, they all turn into a Spin Dash Roll, which can be cancelled by a Spin Dash Jump. Grounded Spin Charge is already on the ground (duh?), so it automatically becomes a Spin Dash Roll. Aerial forms (side-B hop, aerial down-B) can be cancelled by a double jump, if you still have it.
Note: If a SDR goes to the edge of a platform, it becomes an ASC and assumes its properties.
Properties, whuh?
Yes, believe it or not, there are differences in the moves, and it's not just that side-B hops and down-B doesn't. It becomes more obvious in their aerial versions. Down B and Side B record how much charge the moves have and whether or not you had a double jump when you started charging. It passes this information on to the next part until the move ends - which is the roll running out of spin, a Spin Dash Jump, or you falling to your death.
Move properties:
ohcraps, cs references incoming.
Underlines: Defining features (SD/ASC only)
Italics: Is related to interaction between 'phase changes', or when they flow into other moves.
SD (hop): (Creates charge data)
- 5-6% constant damage
- Can be jump cancelled if you have a jump to spare
- Has high priority and/or invincibility/dodge frames at the beginning of the hop
- Easier to do spinshot out of this move's charge, either from ground or air.
- Temporary attack hitbox that goes away after enough time (1-2 seconds, until you go under the height of when you started the hop)
- Knocks the opponent slightly upwards.
- Does not allow aerial attacks if double jump was used.
- Turns into SDR upon contact with ground
- Cannot be cancelled by shield on landing.
- Passes charge and 'remaining jumps' data to the SDR that follows.
ASC: (Creates charge data)
- Can be jump cancelled if you have a jump to spare
- Has a multiple hit combo:
- - First hit: 7-11 damage (damage based on velocity)
- - - High knockback that can KO at higher %'s
- - Follow-up hit: 7-10 damage (don't know what changes it)
- - - Lower knockback that sets up for a DJ aerial.
- Does not allow aerial attacks if double jump was used.
- Turns into SDR on contact with ground
- Can be cancelled by shield on landing.
- Passes charge and 'remaining jumps' data to the SDR that follows.
SDR: (takes in: charge data, 'remaining jumps')
- 7-10 damage, 7 on turn-around.
- Combos naturally into a SDJ if attack or jump is pressed.
- Charge data is taken in from the side B/ down B to determine speed and damage of the roll
- Passes 'remaining jumps' data to SDJ
SDJ: (takes in: 'remaining jumps')
- 7 damage (constant damage/knockback)
- Has higher height than normal jump
- Travels horizontally quicker in midair
- Has an attack hitbox until it a little bit after it starts to go down.
- If there are still remaining jumps (double jump), can be jump cancelled (either started on floor or in air without double jumping).
- Can be cancelled by an aerial at any time.
So if that made any sense, I think the SDR and SDJ are treated as separate moves that take in charge / 'remaining jump' data from the side B or down B. Side B's "true form" can really just be the hop, and Down-B's "true form" is the aerial version; The rolling attack is just tacked on to them. >_> not sure if it has any actual application in metagame but it's just what I noticed, and I felt like putting it down somewhere. Hopefully, it will help explain some things about the moves that you may or may not have been wondering about.
Sonic Orochi
Smash Ace
Makes sense to me. And it seems to be 100% accurate and correct.
Well, I already knew about those (except for ASC, up until now). =P But good job putting all of that info in text format xD
Well, I already knew about those (except for ASC, up until now). =P But good job putting all of that info in text format xD
Damax
Smash Lord
hum yeah actually ASC is pretty good I always do that. jump a bit over the opponent and fall on him with a spin charge and you should get 3 hits on his shield, be able to jump cancel that stuff and back air him afterwards without leaving him a chance to grab. if he get hit by the ASC chances are he'll get hit only once as the knock back is stronger. it also can kill around 170% LOLZ
darkNES386
Smash Lord
Yeah, makes sense to break that down more.
Boxob
Smash Champion
Needs moar vids IMO, and not just of Zeal, but of any Sonic Pwning the other person.
Browny
Smash Hater
ill see what i can do :>
Umby
Smash Master
Shield Canceled ASC to shield grab is too good. I pulled it off on my brother's Ike during a dsmash and almost orgasmed.
Browny
Smash Hater
lol looks like i might ahve some problems getting some footage of my sonic... my brother is about the same skill as me, but whenever he starts to lose he spams and camps like youve never seen before, makes for pretty boring videos 
darkNES386
Smash Lord
remember guys, look at post number 282 for what is being updated.... I still nedd to take into account what most of you have recently said.
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
This'll be getting revamped, wooo. I'm going to NM this weekend, so I won't be able to update completely until after that, but I'm working on it. Also, my combo vid WILL be out sooner or later, lmfao.
Umby
Smash Master
Combos? In Brawl? Madness.
BlueTerrorist
Smash Ace
My final opinion on Sonic and a few things
^Madness? THIS IS SONICCCC!!!!! *ahem* sorry I couldn't resist.
I've been experimenting with Sonic for quite some time now. Even though my friends always tell me to quit Sonic (due to obvious reasons), I can't he fits my play style too well. LOL sometimes I always find myself playing him as if I was playing another Sonic game. I like how he is evolving, I like how people on wifi whine about my Sonic.
Well a few things I'm gonna add (You already know this but let's lay down our options shall we?)
- Tenki is right ASC is TOO GOOD!!!!!! Just the other day, I racked alot of damage with it. It also has great knockback. I'm also able to get footstools consistently with this, here's what I'm thinking.
ASC (Try to fit the 2nd hit in)=>Footstool=>ASC=> aerial (I'd use nair, unless i'm near an edge or can connect with a bair). There's more to this so I'll add to it later.
- I heard about some dash dance thing with the spin dash or spin charge early on. This might be it so hear me out. Start the dash as usual and press the other direction as usual. Before you start to head the other way, quickly press and hold the opposite direction. Sonic should go the same direction you pressed before the turn happens again. ( To put it simply, if your going to the right, quickly press left, then press right again.) There is some slack to the timing, making it go a bit farther. If done right, you will not damage the opponent at all and you can still go through them. Hold the desired direction you want to go and the priority and damage will come back. I've actually went through Falco's reflector doing this so there may be a lower hitbox while your doing this, making dodging things easier. More experiments must be done with this.
Man I should make a vid on the spins lol, you guys inspired me to do it.
I'll add to this later.
^Madness? THIS IS SONICCCC!!!!! *ahem* sorry I couldn't resist.
I've been experimenting with Sonic for quite some time now. Even though my friends always tell me to quit Sonic (due to obvious reasons), I can't he fits my play style too well. LOL sometimes I always find myself playing him as if I was playing another Sonic game. I like how he is evolving, I like how people on wifi whine about my Sonic.
Well a few things I'm gonna add (You already know this but let's lay down our options shall we?)
- Tenki is right ASC is TOO GOOD!!!!!! Just the other day, I racked alot of damage with it. It also has great knockback. I'm also able to get footstools consistently with this, here's what I'm thinking.
ASC (Try to fit the 2nd hit in)=>Footstool=>ASC=> aerial (I'd use nair, unless i'm near an edge or can connect with a bair). There's more to this so I'll add to it later.
- I heard about some dash dance thing with the spin dash or spin charge early on. This might be it so hear me out. Start the dash as usual and press the other direction as usual. Before you start to head the other way, quickly press and hold the opposite direction. Sonic should go the same direction you pressed before the turn happens again. ( To put it simply, if your going to the right, quickly press left, then press right again.) There is some slack to the timing, making it go a bit farther. If done right, you will not damage the opponent at all and you can still go through them. Hold the desired direction you want to go and the priority and damage will come back. I've actually went through Falco's reflector doing this so there may be a lower hitbox while your doing this, making dodging things easier. More experiments must be done with this.
Man I should make a vid on the spins lol, you guys inspired me to do it.
I'll add to this later.
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
I'd actually like to see vids on the ASC. I thought you guys were talking about something I knew about, but now I'm not so sure, since my spin trick doesn't really allow you to combo at all.
Umby
Smash Master
That reminds me, should we dig up lonewolf's thread about that "sonic spin dash dance" thing to investigate further with new information?
darkNES386
Smash Lord
Let's decide on some names, ASC is simply starting and connecting with a down b special in the air... hence Aerial Spin Charge. I seem to hit most with it when recovering cause it's completely different from the pop of the spin dash. I also use it to eat at their shields.
Fyi... that spin dash dance thread that lonewolf posted... he hasn't been on since the day after his last post in that thread which was March 28th..... no one else has proved it since then.
Fyi... that spin dash dance thread that lonewolf posted... he hasn't been on since the day after his last post in that thread which was March 28th..... no one else has proved it since then.
@izzy: It's the same move, but at lower %'s if you're above your opponent it combos into a 2nd hit. It can happen at higher %'s too, but you really have to emphasize the 'being above your opponent' part since the knockback is so high on the initial hit. Honestly, at those %'s, I just jump cancel it cause the 2nd hit has weaker knockback and usually saves them instead of killing them.
@sd dance
OH!
that sounds like an instant turnaround tacked on to a dash dance.
Instant turnaround is just holding backwards or something as you start a SDR.
I do it by accident and does me more harm than good :[
@sd dance
OH!
that sounds like an instant turnaround tacked on to a dash dance.
Instant turnaround is just holding backwards or something as you start a SDR.
I do it by accident and does me more harm than good :[
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
sonic can't go through samus' b or missles (both kinds) with either down or side spin dash. i tried it to every level last night
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
Oh... You guys know you can get two hits on the ground, as well? I mentioned this in my first version of the FAQ. Just time it right.
darkNES386
Smash Lord
He goes under the missles.... not through them.
Edit: My bad on the wording....
Edit: My bad on the wording....
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
on the ones that seek you, and the hop hits the green ones
requesting that you help these acronyms become mainstream somehow lul:
SC = spincharge
SD = spin dash (hop)
ASC = aerial spin charge
ASD = aerial spin dash (hop)
SDR = spin dash roll
SDJ = spin dash jump
SDC = spin dash combo
SDR [hit] > SDJ [hit] > Aerial is what you're talking about there, right? The basic spin dash combo that Sakurai has in his Sonic page.
Side-B has something similar:
SD [hit] > SDR [hit] > SDJ [hit] > Aerial but I don't like it too much so I won't say anything about it lulz
The simple ASC combo is:
ASC [hit twice] > double jump+Aerial
which does anything from 25-35 damage, depending on aerial choice ;D
I found the 'perfect' spin dash combo (like.. combo meter style), posted it a few times in diff. threads:
ASC [hit twice] > SDR [hit] > SDJ [hit] > Aerial
landing on the ground so you can hit with SDR, and doing SDJ so it still combos into the aerial are the hardest parts of it. It's too hard to land purposely, but it comes up once in a while :D (I usually miss the aerial when that happens though X.x)
40+ damage on a successful one, provided you can get all of them to hit.
__________
PS, will test the missile stuffs laturz
SC = spincharge
SD = spin dash (hop)
ASC = aerial spin charge
ASD = aerial spin dash (hop)
SDR = spin dash roll
SDJ = spin dash jump
SDC = spin dash combo
that?
SDR [hit] > SDJ [hit] > Aerial is what you're talking about there, right? The basic spin dash combo that Sakurai has in his Sonic page.
Side-B has something similar:
SD [hit] > SDR [hit] > SDJ [hit] > Aerial but I don't like it too much so I won't say anything about it lulz
The simple ASC combo is:
ASC [hit twice] > double jump+Aerial
which does anything from 25-35 damage, depending on aerial choice ;D
I found the 'perfect' spin dash combo (like.. combo meter style), posted it a few times in diff. threads:
ASC [hit twice] > SDR [hit] > SDJ [hit] > Aerial
landing on the ground so you can hit with SDR, and doing SDJ so it still combos into the aerial are the hardest parts of it. It's too hard to land purposely, but it comes up once in a while :D (I usually miss the aerial when that happens though X.x)
40+ damage on a successful one, provided you can get all of them to hit.
__________
PS, will test the missile stuffs laturz
darkNES386
Smash Lord
I think izzy's wording of jump cancel is that you connect on a spin dash and then jump to hit a second time while still rolling.... a spin dash jump (still in a ball)
Spin Dash Combo?... pop into another hit on a roll?
Don't we want both spin dash roll and spin charge roll?
Charge= db
Dash = fb
roll = in ball on ground
jump = ball in air
jump cancel = leaving ball ... using second jump
spin shot .... we use this right? Not spin jump... cause spin jump can be extremly vauge if we dont' stick to the above terms.....
@memphischains - is the wording better now... how much do we want to say about spin - - roll priority for character specifics... should we leave most of it to the character matchup thread?
Spin Dash Combo?... pop into another hit on a roll?
Don't we want both spin dash roll and spin charge roll?
Charge= db
Dash = fb
roll = in ball on ground
jump = ball in air
jump cancel = leaving ball ... using second jump
spin shot .... we use this right? Not spin jump... cause spin jump can be extremly vauge if we dont' stick to the above terms.....
@memphischains - is the wording better now... how much do we want to say about spin - - roll priority for character specifics... should we leave most of it to the character matchup thread?
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
depends
i was just pointing a priority issue i was in complete fact about.
sdc is to open of a name to call the side b or don b hit, jump hit arial
it should just be spin dash into aireal
if only i could spell...
EDIT - I think stating how much priority sonic has is a good idea is what i meant
i was just pointing a priority issue i was in complete fact about.
sdc is to open of a name to call the side b or don b hit, jump hit arial
it should just be spin dash into aireal
if only i could spell...
EDIT - I think stating how much priority sonic has is a good idea is what i meant
darkNES386
Smash Lord
Is it making more sense now what I'm tryign to do? refer to post 282, the spin special sections
EDIT: An aerial implies the attack was started in the air and a jump implies sonic left the ground in a ball. Either one can hit the opponent... but don't they both do the same damage?
EDIT: An aerial implies the attack was started in the air and a jump implies sonic left the ground in a ball. Either one can hit the opponent... but don't they both do the same damage?
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
what......
I have no idea anymore if anything I'm saying is pertaining to what you're saying, but I already wrote the stuff down, so I'm gonna keep it there lol[fail]
So that said, there's no need for both a SCR and a SDR, just one lol. "Spin dash roll" describes it well enough, I think.
Anyway, I might have skimmed it, but I think you put down the SC's Spin Dash Jump as "Spin Charge's spinshot". Spinshot, at least to me, is when you do an aerial jump-cancel at specific timing (as the previous form ends), so you do the low, fast, non-attack jump. The same 'state' as doing a double jump out of a spindash jump or side-B hop, except it travels faster horizontally.
my "definition" for the SDJ is: the jump that has an attack aura when done out of a roll, which does 7 damage unstale.
Anyway, as far as I know, Spinshot can be done:
- From side-B charge release (jump cancel as soon as the hop starts)
- From ASC charge release (jump cancel as soon as it's released)
- After leaving platform (jump as soon as you leave the platform)
All of them seem to be done by using your aerial jump as a phase change is happening:
- going from SD (charge) to SD (hop)
- going from ASC (charge) to ASC (attack)
- going from SDR to ASC
For me, jump cancelling is when you use your double jump to stop the current move (jc a ground charge goes into a spindash jump, while jc an aerial goes into double jump)
According to what I put down a few posts ago (#293), the SDR is actually a move, or part of a move, that's shared by both the side-B and down-B. If you use side-B's full charged roll a few times, then a down-B's full charged roll, it'll do less damage with the down-B because of stale moves (both side and down-B trigger the same roll attack upon landing)
So that said, there's no need for both a SCR and a SDR, just one lol. "Spin dash roll" describes it well enough, I think.
db, fb, and roll seem alot better for describing how to do the moves xD
Anyway, I might have skimmed it, but I think you put down the SC's Spin Dash Jump as "Spin Charge's spinshot". Spinshot, at least to me, is when you do an aerial jump-cancel at specific timing (as the previous form ends), so you do the low, fast, non-attack jump. The same 'state' as doing a double jump out of a spindash jump or side-B hop, except it travels faster horizontally.
my "definition" for the SDJ is: the jump that has an attack aura when done out of a roll, which does 7 damage unstale.
Anyway, as far as I know, Spinshot can be done:
- From side-B charge release (jump cancel as soon as the hop starts)
- From ASC charge release (jump cancel as soon as it's released)
- After leaving platform (jump as soon as you leave the platform)
All of them seem to be done by using your aerial jump as a phase change is happening:
- going from SD (charge) to SD (hop)
- going from ASC (charge) to ASC (attack)
- going from SDR to ASC
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
Better yet, just say vb, >b, or ^b.
Tenki, get a replay of this 40% combo, and I'll get it to work consistently, and even make it applicable.
Tenki, get a replay of this 40% combo, and I'll get it to work consistently, and even make it applicable.
TwinkleToes
Smash Lord
Zeal, update your first post already. So much old crap in it that it hurts my eyes.