Guide Sonic GUIDE/FAQ: ASK QUESTIONS HERE

[Camalange]

Something's been on my mind lately. What do you guys think top Sonics need to do to step up their game? It's generally agreed by just about everyone that Sonic is a strong high tier character. However, there haven't been a lot of strong results lately. Decent ones, but not strong ones. Additionally, I hear high level players talk about how they typically don't have trouble with him thanks to his predictability. So what do you think could help him make a come back at the top level?

they need to git gud

It's not so much his lack of predictability (that comes down to player) as much as it is his lack of safe approach options and KO set-ups.

People argue that Sonic can't be played as aggressively due to spin damage nerfs, lack of a safe KO option with Bthrow, and the nerf to Usmash.

Time will tell, but I think there is truth to this.

The way Sonic plays is changing, and we're still adapting. Meanwhile, other strong characters are left unchanged or buffed in the process. Combine this with people at large learning the match-up...

I think it's about time I learned how to use SDSC; until now I've been neglecting it but it's too good of a mix up to not be using. So I'm wondering about what situations it's most useful in... two that I kind of thought up on my own are:

1) when you're charging SD and the other guy is fairly close holding shield, SDSC, run up and grab.
2) when you're charging SD and the other guy runs at you. if you don't think you have time to let the SD release and you predict the other guy is going to dash attack or something, you could SDSC and shield grab him.

Does anyone more experienced with SDSC have any other situations where it's useful?

Those are all fairly standard and unfortunately a lot less common in high level play, as smart players are aware to not really challenge SD in those situations.

I'd like to expand on SDSC options in detail. I'm going to post a link to a poll where people can help me see the levels of interests for different topics.

There's actually an in game hint about being able to shield cancel spin dash to fake out the oppenent...so it seems its purposeful that Nintendo wants us to mess with our opponents heads ;b

Also proof that ASCSC was unintentional, as that was removed and this one was kept.

Either that or both were unintentional and they decided to keep one (but I always felt SDSC was intentional).

Apparently Sonic is much higher ranked in Japan than North America. Are there any great Japanese Sonics to watch? I saw and learned a few things from Komorikiri. Anyone else? Thanks!

Most of the reason for that is because Japan prefers flat stages that let Sonic run away way too much, and their playstyle isn't as effective against him. So he ends up being top 3 and Weegee is mid tier.

I don't know any good Japanese Sonics to watch. Never really seen any.

Japan is semi-fraudulent and I couldn't even really name many more Sonics worth watching, tbh.

Canpy has a very technical Sonic... So there's that.

--

http://strawpoll.me/5320538

Help me gauge interest in future Sonic tutorial video topics.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

they need to git gud

It's not so much his lack of predictability (that comes down to player) as much as it is his lack of safe approach options and KO set-ups.

People argue that Sonic can't be played as aggressively due to spin damage nerfs, lack of a safe KO option with Bthrow, and the nerf to Usmash.

Time will tell, but I think there is truth to this.

The way Sonic plays is changing, and we're still adapting. Meanwhile, other strong characters are left unchanged or buffed in the process.

Those are all fairly standard and unfortunately a lot less common in high level play, as smart players are aware to not really challenge SD in those situations.

I'd like to expand on SDSC options in detail. I'm going to post a link to a poll where people can help me see the levels of interests for different topics.

Also proof that ASCSC was unintentional, as that was removed and this one was kept.

Either that or both were unintentional and they decided to keep one (but I always felt SDSC was intentional).


Japan is semi-fraudulent and I couldn't even really name many more Sonics worth watching, tbh.

Canpy has a very technical Sonic... So there's that.

--

http://strawpoll.me/5320538

Help me gauge interest in future Sonic tutorial video topics.

Thank you for your input. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. I enjoy watching Japanese players so I figured it'd worth a look.

Also I voted with the masses.

 

[Camalange]

Thank you for your input. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. I enjoy watching Japanese players so I figured it'd worth a look.

I don't want to sound too negative about it, as I think something can be learned from everyone, but I haven't really seen anything from Japan to justify them believing he's top 3. Only things that can cause them to believe this are...

1) Favoring style over efficiency, leading to Sonic having an easier time getting in and doing his thing if they aren't playing as defensively as possible.
2) Very limited stage options, because if you're almost always playing on FD, then Sonic is going to have stronger advantages...
3) Being bad/not knowing the match-up?? *See point 1

I've always held Japan's opinions on Smash with a grain of salt for every iteration...

Reminds me of the whole RATS problem Sonic had in Brawl.

Also I voted with the masses.

Thanks for voting!

Looks like it's rather unanimous...

 

[Luig]

I would like to know moar movement options.



PRO POKEMON

 

[Chis]

Also proof that ASCSC was unintentional, as that was removed and this one was kept.

Either that or both were unintentional and they decided to keep one (but I always felt SDSC was intentional).

I think it was a design decision to differentiate between SD and SC.


Anyways has the fact that spin roll can come to a full stop when it hits a shield (like the ASCSC) been covered?

By the way Camalange, when you say 'movement' what do you have in mind?

 

[Camalange]

I think it was a design decision to differentiate between SD and SC.


Anyways has the fact that spin roll can come to a full stop when it hits a shield (like the ASCSC) been covered?

Yes, it has. It can cross-up shield, too.

By the way Camalange, when you say 'movement' what do you have in mind?

Guess you'll find out in my new video since it won by a landslide.

The "chapters" I plan on touching on for sure are...

Foxtrot - Grind - Dash Dance Pivot - Screech Stop - Spin Dash Shield Cancels

 

[kj22]

Yes, it has. It can cross-up shield, too.

Guess you'll find out in my new video since it won by a landslide.

The "chapters" I plan on touching on for sure are...

Foxtrot - Grind - Dash Dance Pivot - Screech Stop - Spin Dash Shield Cancels

DDPPPPP
my favorite

I miss the animation for foxtrotting from brawl though, sonic's spikes looked so cool when you were doing it

 

[Chis]

Yes, it has. It can cross-up shield, too.

Guess you'll find out in my new video since it won by a landslide.

The "chapters" I plan on touching on for sure are...

Foxtrot - Grind - Dash Dance Pivot - Screech Stop - Spin Dash Shield Cancels

What about foxtrot>slow run and turning around when dashing?

 

[Damandatwin]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3ikagj/extended_dash_dancing_my_smash_corner/

anyone tried this with Sonic? how useful is it?

 

[Login_Sinker]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3ikagj/extended_dash_dancing_my_smash_corner/

anyone tried this with Sonic? how useful is it?

I've tried it. Unfortunately, it's not very good with Sonic because his initial dash has a lot of lag on the end of it. He can't do it fast enough do to this (ironically).

 

[Camalange]

What about foxtrot>slow run and turning around when dashing?

I was going to cover slow run I think for ****s, but I'm not sure what actual application it even has.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3ikagj/extended_dash_dancing_my_smash_corner/

anyone tried this with Sonic? how useful is it?

I've tried it. Unfortunately, it's not very good with Sonic because his initial dash has a lot of lag on the end of it. He can't do it fast enough do to this (ironically).

No, it's very useful, and I do it all the time...

This is just dash dance pivoting...

I do it a lot throughout the set, and I even marked the timestamp for when Ninjalink mentions it.

I don't know why I haven't learned by now that I should just make video exclusively on Brawl tech and relabel it for this new generation. God damn it.

these smash 4 kids smh -_-

 

[Chis]

I don't know why I haven't learned by now that I should just make video exclusively on Brawl tech and relabel it for this new generation. God damn it.

these smash 4 kids smh -_-

Yeah I've found that annoying too but if it spreads the information around it's alright I guess.

 

[Camalange]

Yeah I've found that annoying too but if it spreads the information around it's alright I guess.

I'm actually having a similar debate as this was posted to the front page, lol.

... it's pointing out the constant rebranding and incorrect crediting of something that's existed for a long time. If the creator knows it already exists, then it's an ego stroke on their end. If they didn't know, then it's simply a lack of prior information.

I have no issue with teaching the masses things they missed out from previous iterations as a reintroduction to the game, but I get frustrated when I see new multiple labels for the same technique. That shows a lack of consistency in the community and makes things more confusing on a larger scale. This is like the third time I've seen a video with this technique, expecting something new, but instead got the same thing with a different name.

... this isn't the first example of this happening... It's sort of an issue I have in general but I suppose that's the nature of the game when Daddy Sakurai didn't intend for any of these things to happen outside of his instruction manual.

I know they aren't claiming it as discovering it themselves, which is why I said it's more likely a lack of prior information on their part.

Perhaps I just wish there was a better way to document this. A proper database which catalogues tech for each Smash game and what carried over between versions...

... Imagine if Smash 4 had literally wave dashing and we called it something else...

Yeah... That's basically happening all the time with Brawl and Smash 4 tech.

 

[spiNR]

Curious as to how some players deal with campy or more defensive playstyles. I've found that I have an extremely hard time dealing with it and was wondering what other players do to get around it.

 

[honeclawshonedge]

So I wanna pick up Sonic because he's so fun and to cover bad matchups because Rosa isn't exactly fast. Problem is I don't really know what he does since he Rosa plays kinda differently to other characters. Would it be worth investing time into Sonic? Is there anyone here that I can play against to help me improve? Thanks

 

[Gregory2590]

Don't pick up sonic if:

1. You don't want to lose to all of the top characters, or at least not have matchups in your favor.

2. Not willing to be hated for using a character that's easily beaten, but is still hated anyway.

3. Your mixup game sucks.

4. You cannot get used to being nerfed whether it's slightly or majorly in almost every patch.

5. You hate needing to work for kills to some degree.

6. You hate fast.

 

[honeclawshonedge]

I have Rosa for most of the top tiers so I'm not worried about that so much. I want to try out a fast character and Sonic is the only one remotely like. I know I'm going to be universally hated for using probably the 2 most annoying characters but they're fun so it doesn't bother me

 

[windlessusher]

How do you guys typically adapt to Sonic after a patch? Especially with no official patch notes cause reasons.

 

[Camalange]

We run around like chickens with our heads cut off.

But we're Sonic, so we're like, obnoxiously fast chickens.

And the cut-off heads start spin dashing everywhere but with no purpose.

 

[Login_Sinker]

Can anyone tell me how to handle the Mario/Doc MU? I've never beaten a Mario before as Sonic. Since all his moves in neutral are lagless, I can never find any good SD opportunities, and he just destroys Sonic up close. Halp

 

[windlessusher]

Can anyone tell me how to handle the Mario/Doc MU? I've never beaten a Mario before as Sonic. Since all his moves in neutral are lagless, I can never find any good SD opportunities, and he just destroys Sonic up close. Halp

How I normally deal with it, is that if they're the kind of Mario that throws fireballs a lot to stop my Spindashing, I instead run and shield, and catch them on their recovery when he's pulling back his hand with a dash attack or a grab. When they get sick of all the free damage I'm getting and stop throwing fire balls, then I spindash away.

On the other hand, those that don't rely on fireballs and instead hit me with hard reads with his smash attacks, specifically fsmash and usmash? I play those safe, run a safe distance and space them out with Dtilt and Ftilt.

With all that said however, I still have a hard time no matter what kind of Mario I'm facing.

 

[Rucent]

Can anyone tell me how to handle the Mario/Doc MU? I've never beaten a Mario before as Sonic. Since all his moves in neutral are lagless, I can never find any good SD opportunities, and he just destroys Sonic up close. Halp

The MU thread is currently discussing Mario, and a few posts have already been made, so you can check it out.

How do you guys typically adapt to Sonic after a patch? Especially with no official patch notes cause reasons.

Well, most of us go crazy and temporarily lose trust in each other because of the placebo effect, but as time passes we start to realize what is nerfed, validly complain about it, then move on from it. No patch in the universe is going to stop us!

 

[windlessusher]

Just how much did they increase the recovery on Sonic's normals?

For example, in the beginning, I could do Sonic's dash attack when I'm right next to someone reliably, because he'd end up a good distance behind them if they shield it, and I'd be safe to move on.
But now, the distance seems to be the same, but now people seem to have ample time to punish me, whether it be with their own dash attack or a raw Fsmash.

Am I missing something?

 

[da K.I.D.]

the people you are playing with are probably just getting better at the game.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Can someone explain to me how I am supposed to reliably punish Sonic's Forward-B and Down-B? I'm running it by the numbers and they seem to force most opponents into making guesses and hard reads throughout.

Sonic Forward-B and Down-B hitboxes have normal hitlag multipliers. When you jump during a Forward-B or Down-B, there appears to be about a 4-frame gap between the end of (shield) hitlag freeze and the second hitbox generated by a buffered jump, which can be followed up by multiple aerials (Frame 5 F-Air, Frame 5 U-Air, Frame 6 N-Air), or an Up-B (Frame 4), all of which outspeed almost all out-of-shield options. If those numbers are correct, the only way to reliably punish after shielding the initial hit would be to powershield and then use a Frame 4 or faster move after dropping shield (which takes 0 frames due to the powershield). These gaps are too small for even the fastest Grabs (which are Frame 6) to beat. Alternatively, Sonic can choose not to follow up with an aerial after jumping and continue moving faster than the vast majority of the cast is able to reasonably chase.

Both the potential cancel into shield and start-up invincibility (~5 frames, and you can also cancel into a double-jump during that window or anytime after) on Forward-B discourage burst range tools from the opponent, and most lingering hitboxes outside of the range of Forward-B and Down-B allow Sonic to wait and punish on reaction.

Outside of select looping Jab1s with loads of active frames or significant disjoints (Captain Falcon and Pikachu are the only ones that come to mind; anyone telling you that Little Mac can is wrong) and certain projectiles, I don't know of any "just hold it out there" moves that can reliably discourage the sheer space control that Sonic's Forward-B and Down-B carry. This seems to force opponents without the tools to negate these specials in neutral altogether or the ability to chase and pressure Sonic after a blocked spin combination to make multiple reads just to be able to touch the opponent, which seems to make them ridiculously polarized in a 1v1 environment.

I would be very happy if someone could tell me my numbers are wrong and that there are bigger gaps between hits. I'm really at a loss.

 

[kj22]

Can someone explain to me how I am supposed to reliably punish Sonic's Forward-B and Down-B? I'm running it by the numbers and they seem to force most opponents into making guesses and hard reads throughout.

Sonic Forward-B and Down-B hitboxes have normal hitlag multipliers. When you jump during a Forward-B or Down-B, there appears to be about a 4-frame gap between the end of (shield) hitlag freeze and the second hitbox generated by a buffered jump, which can be followed up by multiple aerials (Frame 5 F-Air, Frame 5 U-Air, Frame 6 N-Air), or an Up-B (Frame 4), all of which outspeed almost all out-of-shield options. If those numbers are correct, the only way to reliably punish after shielding the initial hit would be to powershield and then use a Frame 4 or faster move after dropping shield (which takes 0 frames due to the powershield). These gaps are too small for even the fastest Grabs (which are Frame 6) to beat. Alternatively, Sonic can choose not to follow up with an aerial after jumping and continue moving faster than the vast majority of the cast is able to reasonably chase.

Both the potential cancel into shield and start-up invincibility (~5 frames, and you can also cancel into a double-jump during that window or anytime after) on Forward-B discourage burst range tools from the opponent, and most lingering hitboxes outside of the range of Forward-B and Down-B allow Sonic to wait and punish on reaction.

Outside of select looping Jab1s with loads of active frames or significant disjoints (Captain Falcon and Pikachu are the only ones that come to mind; anyone telling you that Little Mac can is wrong) and certain projectiles, I don't know of any "just hold it out there" moves that can reliably discourage the sheer space control that Sonic's Forward-B and Down-B carry. This seems to force opponents without the tools to negate these specials in neutral altogether or the ability to chase and pressure Sonic after a blocked spin combination to make multiple reads just to be able to touch the opponent, which seems to make them ridiculously polarized in a 1v1 environment.

I would be very happy if someone could tell me my numbers are wrong and that there are bigger gaps between hits. I'm really at a loss.

Who are you playing as?

And the best situation is not to shield the spindash at all and just avoid it by movement. When you're sitting in shield you're a sitting duck as sonic has many ways to deal with hitting a shield after spindashing, and its easy to hit you when you're stuck in one spot. Also shielding SD to much eats your shield, allowing bairs and angled fsmashes and springs to poke. Walking into shield/whatever option is very good too.
How exactly to punish sonic depends heavily on your character,

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Sonic's not launching as a result of seeing a shield, though; he's doing it when you're within a certain range, when you're too close to be able to react to it. That said, I guess you're telling me that I should move forward and take a guess with an attack rather than shield.

He often has the option of choosing to move backward instead, which means that swinging in advance is in danger of both backward movement and just waiting, so many characters with limited movement/attacking options risk a good bit while Sonic can just wait with the occasional preemptive launch forward.

I'm using characters like Wario and Jigglypuff, but I feel like the trouble is there for about half the cast.

 

[da K.I.D.]

you going way too deeply into this reflex. all you have to do is powershield it.

spindash is too fast to hit confirm for us as sonic players, so if we believe that the first hitbox hit you, 90% of the time, we will instantly jump into an aerial. and it doesnt matter what aerial because the movement of spindash jump will put us so far away from you that if you shield the spindash the aerial will never hit you. at that point sonic is doing a laggy aerial right above your head and behind you. so you just punish with a full jump bair. Youre focused too much on the frame data, and not on the spacing and positioning of the characters in context.

shield and back air will punish most bad spindashers. after you punish it the first time, better sonics will start doing a spring immediately after the jump. and for that, you can just hold shield, block the spring and land camp the sonic. our options at that point are to airdodge to the ground, or do an aerial to the ground.
Admittedly, all our aerials have a different use in this situation. nair has the least lag so it gives us the best chance of escaping unharmed. bair has the most range and power and can outrange some moves and push people out of shield grab range if spaced right. fair has multiple hits, and dair alters our air momentum. Both of those can be used as little gimmicks to trick people into getting hit. but depending on your character, if you have good anti airs or a good grab range/ground speed, none of that matters because you can beat out all of those options.

alternatively, if you have decent timing and reactions, you can just ignore the entire mini game we have here and just pivot grab it.

 

[Camalange]

Nair is easily shield grabbed. Even if Sonic lands with Fair and it hits, you can still hit him after because he won't get the final knockback hit and instead get the floppy fish animation. I've literally never seen a Sonic try to Fair to land because it just is an awful option. Bair is laggy. Uair is the only aerial that autocancels from a low height, but again, shielding that is easy because it only hits above him, and still doing it actually low enough to even hit a grounded opponent would give him lag... Dair is also predictable and linear enough to punish with Usmash. Happens all the time. Only autocancels for a full jump > Spring height.

Also, if you try to clank or beat out a spin with a hitbox, our best option is to preemptively SDJ > Homing Attack, but as long as you don't commit to too hard of an option, you can still avoid HA and punish it.

Most characters, as said, can get an OoS Bair/Uair though if a Sonic hits your shield and immediately jumps. Otherwise, in most cases, you can just hold shield and you'll be completely fine... Then just react to whatever we do. Even if you don't get the punish every time, you're still not taking any damage.

ESAM's "Deal With It" video gives a basic enough introduction to the overview of handling Sonic's Spin Dash. It misses a few things, but it gives you a general enough understanding.

Also, you're Wario... Bite already offers an edge most characters don't have. You can bait a Spin Dash and get a free punish quite easily with that.

It's obviously not guaranteed every time and it can be baited by us as well, but like, that's Smash in general so. The tools exist... It's not a get out of jail free card, but you underhype it about as much as you overhype Spin Dash.

 

[da K.I.D.]

bite still beats 90% of this characters moveset lol, that hasnt changed at all from brawl homie =P

and cam, ive started implementing fairs into my landing options recently, its bad, but it will work if you know that your opponent is going to expect a nair or bair and drop shield after the first hit that touches them.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The entirety of ESAM's video assumes that it's being launched from half a stage away, which is unrealistic. I feel like Sonic's ability to cancel Forward-B charge/hold Down-B charge in place or to just jump over the opponent means that slower opponents are effectively dealing with a situation similar to Melee dashdancing, in that every time Sonic is charging, you have to make an active decision to assume he's either coming at you or waiting/moving backward, with most responses to the former being punishable by coming after the latter.

Sonic's horizontal air speed is in the top 20%, his Up-B doesn't have any extra landing lag, and you can still fastfall after an Up-B. Sonic N-Air shifts his hurtbox and has relatively little landing lag, as well, so unless you have a lingering aerial that happens to juggle well, it's relatively hard to trap his landing reliably for many characters between the mix-ups of normal fall vs. fastfall, and N-Air vs. D-Air vs. empty landing.

EDIT: Wario Neutral-B is noticeably less effective at catching Sonic's moves, largely because attacks trading with grabs just put you at frame-neutral right next to the opponent (and Wario's frame data is terrible) instead of armoring through the attack, and because Sonic's Forward-B is faster than before. I'm not sure if Sonic's hitboxes are larger in Smash 4 than in Brawl, but in this game, Neutral-B loses to all sorts of stuff, including well-spaced Jab, F-Tilt, F-Smash, F-Air, D-Air, and a very close Forward-B (due to invincibility on the initial hop as well as the ability to jump out at any time into an aerial). If you mash reasonably well, you'll likely only take 7-9% before going back to neutral; it pretty much never puts Wario in a position to follow up or KO, which is not the case when Sonic catches Wario in spindash stuff. It's likely one of his best options in the matchup, but it doesn't turn the matchup on its head or anything.

 

[Camalange]

bite still beats 90% of this characters moveset lol, that hasnt changed at all from brawl homie =P

and cam, ive started implementing fairs into my landing options recently, its bad, but it will work if you know that your opponent is going to expect a nair or bair and drop shield after the first hit that touches them.

Yeah, I'm not even trying to sound mean about it. I just don't know how else to stress the point.

Just knowing Wario has a command grab that will win every time completely changes how I approach the character. Most characters I can just spin at their shield and see how they react, but with Wario, I literally know all he has to do is press B, which already puts me in the situation where I only want to bait and punish with Spin. Otherwise I'm preemptively jumping before reaching Wario so I don't get bit.

The entirety of ESAM's video assumes that it's being launched from half a stage away, which is unrealistic. I feel like Sonic's ability to cancel Forward-B charge/hold Down-B charge in place or to just jump over the opponent means that slower opponents are effectively dealing with a situation similar to Melee dashdancing, in that every time Sonic is charging, you have to make an active decision to assume he's either coming at you or waiting/moving backward, with most responses to the former being punishable by coming after the latter.

Sonic's horizontal air speed is in the top 20%, his Up-B doesn't have any extra landing lag, and you can still fastfall after an Up-B. Sonic N-Air shifts his hurtbox and has relatively little landing lag, as well, so unless you have a lingering aerial that happens to juggle well, it's relatively hard to trap his landing reliably for many characters.

I honestly don't know how else to explain it.

EDIT:

EDIT: Wario Neutral-B is noticeably less effective at catching Sonic's moves, largely because attacks trading with grabs just put you at frame-neutral right next to the opponent (and Wario's frame data is terrible) instead of armoring through the attack, and because Sonic's Forward-B is faster than before. I'm not sure if Sonic's hitboxes are larger in Smash 4 than in Brawl. It's likely one of his best options in the matchup, but it doesn't turn the matchup on its head or anything.

I've personally never seen a Spin clank with Bite.

The hitboxes are near identical, if not exactly the same.

I agree that it doesn't turn the matchup on its head, but it is an effective tool.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wario's burst range options are limited to Dash Attack and...yeah, just Dash Attack. As a result, Sonic has nothing dangerous to fear unless Wario is right on top of him, which allows Sonic Forward-B to beat Wario Neutral-B via invincibility or Forward-B/Down-B to beat it on reaction simply by waiting for Wario to close his mouth (which can only be held open for a limited time), since Wario will never get a chance to use Neutral-B directly on top of Sonic in neutral. In the event that that happens, Sonic gets ~15-20% and a chance to pressure/follow up, while Wario deals ~9% before the situation resets. Not a good trade-off, especially when Sonic's the one forcing Wario to guess while being able to play almost entirely reactionary.

Either way, this isn't specifically about Wario, it's about half the cast not being able to do much in a similar way.

 

[Camalange]

I think I'm just confused because it sounds like you're saying half the cast doesn't have a neutral game or out of shield options.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I guess I wasn't saying that outright, but I do feel that way with characters with incredibly safe burst range tools against characters who can't threaten nearly as much space back or maneuver well enough to adequately bait and punish reliably; there's so much space being safely threatened that many characters cannot manage a reliable neutral game against them. I truly feel that characters like Sonic and Falcon beat a large chunk of the cast badly enough to consider that part of the cast unviable in competitive play. (And before you ask/assume, no, that part of the cast does not include Wario.)

 

[da K.I.D.]

a lot of this game is based on a sense of risk reward that I think youre not giving enough weight.

ganon is bad because he has no approach and his neutral is trash, but no matter what, he can trade stocks at 0 with suicide side b, or kill you at 50 with a read out of side b on stage. hes also heavy so he can survive a lot. this concept applies to charizard bowser and dk. sonic has to be able to control the neutral because he doesnt have a single move that can kill someone under 100% whereas the 4 characters i mentioned have several.

sonic is incredibly weak, and relatively light, so the game is already skewed against him in the fact that he already has to hit most characters wayyyy more than they hit him to stay even. thats why he has the mobility to win the neutral so often. same with sheik.

its frustrating because your posts reek of thinking of things in a vacuum. like you dont even acknowledge the fact that any errant wario nair i get hit with means im going to lose my second stock at 40 because you can combo into fart. I should be able to beat out whatever youre doing on a fairly consistent basis because thats the trade off for having to basically be forced to fight every character at max rage every stock.

 

[Camalange]

I truly feel that characters like Sonic and Falcon beat a large chunk of the cast badly enough to consider that part of the cast unviable in competitive play.

LMFAOdalkjdfa;lkdj;akldjkldfjakl;fdjkla

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's funny that you mention Ganondorf, Bowser, and DK in comparison to someone like Sonic when that high amounts of power don't mean much if you can almost never land the hits to begin with. Yes, Bowser is good in a free-for-all, but people don't play competitive FFA. Mobility and the ability to control others' mobility has historically been an incredibly powerful tool in competitive Smash Brothers, and it tends to skew that way over time as players improve. I suspect this to become more relevant over time (as it has in every Smash game to date) unless we get significant patch changes. I've been saying for a while that the top dozen or so characters are playing an entirely different game from the rest of the cast.

Just gonna unsubscribe from this thread now. I don't need posts like the one above in a conversation meant to be thoughtful. Don't mind me.

 

[Lawz.]

It's funny that you mention Ganondorf, Bowser, and DK in comparison to someone like Sonic when that high amounts of power don't mean much if you can almost never land the hits to begin with. Yes, Bowser is good in a free-for-all, but people don't play competitive FFA. Mobility and the ability to control others' mobility has historically been an incredibly powerful tool in competitive Smash Brothers, and it tends to skew that way over time as players improve. I suspect this to become more relevant over time (as it has in every Smash game to date) unless we get significant patch changes. I've been saying for a while that the top dozen or so characters are playing an entirely different game from the rest of the cast.

Just gonna unsubscribe from this thread now. I don't need posts like the one above in a conversation meant to be thoughtful. Don't mind me.

They gave you legitimate insight on how to deal with their own character and you push it aside and instead respond with theorycrafted scenarios in which you are always on the losing end no matter what (somehow).

It's clear that you have a hard time conveying your message as you have switched your entire agenda in the first place. You start by asking how a certain character deals with Sonic, they tell you exactly how, then you switch to "okay well my character may have options, but the rest of the cast doesn't, and the top tiers play totally different, and there should be patch changes".

What is the purpose of your argument? It just seems like you came here to complain about a character that you clearly don't know how to deal with, rather than actually learning how to deal with him.

I'd lose patience too if I were in their position.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I never had an agenda; I just wanted to know how to overcome situation which the numbers suggest are skewed against specific types of characters. I'm glad that there was information to be had, but I also had to explain why the idea of "Chomp beats 90% of Sonic's moves" is incorrect in many cases, and showing how skewed neutral can be between characters with a large mobility disparity (again, as it has always been in Smash as the metagame progresses). I wasn't suggesting that your advice wasn't worthwhile.

If it's any consolation, I have the same feeling of dread over the rolls in this game. The massive amount of safety of a lot of characters will make portions of the cast do worse and worse over time as players refine their play and realize just how far they can go with tactics that involve relatively tiny amounts of risk.