Song of Time: Zelda's Changes in PM. 3.6 HYPE

[4tlas]

I think I'll cut back on my visits until 3.6 drops. Tier List Speculation and this board are the only things that keep me interested in Smashboards at the moment, and I've had enough of arguing about 3.5.

I feel your pain.

 

[WhiteCrow]

I've had enough of arguing about 3.5.

True story. Next patch will hopefully create a more positive look for the Princess. At the very least it will be 1 less thing for people to whine about fighting Zelda.

 

[Vitriform]

True story. Next patch will hopefully create a more positive look for the Princess. At the very least it will be 1 less thing for people to whine about fighting Zelda.

Just as long as having less to whine about doesn't entail nerfing Zelda into the ground. PM's the only game where I can actually play Zelda without losing at the character select screen, and I'd prefer that it stays that way.

 

[4tlas]

I don't mind if Zelda is the worst character in the game as long as she is close enough to compete. I kind of like the feeling of accomplishment that comes with defeating my opponents using only my intelligence, while they have that+tech+character strengths. And I don't care about winning, so w/e

 

[ZGE]

I have it from a pretty reliable source that Zelda will get buffed. =D

 

[Sardonyx]

I have it from a pretty reliable source that Zelda will get buffed. =D

You're getting my hopes up, and I thank you for that. Any sort of positivity about Zelda is greatly appreciated <3

 

[WhiteCrow]

I have it from a pretty reliable source that Zelda will get buffed. =D

I'm not listening to ghost stories anymore, sorry. The only reliable source is a current PMDT member's word which is never given, least of all on these Zelda forums. It happened before 3.5 and it happened before 3.0 and it gets old.

 

[FreeGamer]

What you actually heard is that she's getting nerfed again. Can't ignore salty scrubs on Reddit now, can we?

 

[4tlas]

But seriously if I see one more Reddit thread about removing transform I'm going to finally make an account and go ape**** on everyone about how Sheilda is a valid option and I love her.

 

[Reidlos Toof]

I wouldn't mind if Transform was changed to something else, but I know a few people that really enjoy Shielda. If it were to get removed, I think it would be neat if it got replaced with Light Arrow. Then they could make Din's Fire a mine that is placed at Zelda's location rather than a projectile. This would allow it to be made more powerful since it wouldn't be thrown across the screen anymore. I imagine that this would resolve a lot of the complaints about her as well.

 

[Sardonyx]

I wouldn't mind if Transform was changed to something else, but I know a few people that really enjoy Shielda. If it were to get removed, I think it would be neat if it got replaced with Light Arrow. Then they could make Din's Fire a mine that is placed at Zelda's location rather than a projectile. This would allow it to be made more powerful since it wouldn't be thrown across the screen anymore. I imagine that this would resolve a lot of the complaints about her as well.

I like your ideas :D how would you propose the mine work though? Would it be where she is at full strength from the start?

 

[Reidlos Toof]

I like your ideas :D how would you propose the mine work though? Would it be where she is at full strength from the start?

It could, or it could gain explosion size and damage over time similar to the way mines currently work. OR it could sit there permanently (or at least for a long duration) until it was hit or you reactivated it. It would really be a neat and unique mechanic if you could charge it up with the taunt that creates a little fireball, but that might be a bit too far fetched.

 

[ZGE]

I'm not listening to ghost stories anymore, sorry. The only reliable source is a current PMDT member's word which is never given, least of all on these Zelda forums. It happened before 3.5 and it happened before 3.0 and it gets old.

Ahem.

Understandable, and were it me having to believe someone else's word blindly I would be a bit doubtful. We'll just have to see once 3.6 actually comes out.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

I'm not listening to ghost stories anymore, sorry. The only reliable source is a current PMDT member's word which is never given, least of all on these Zelda forums. It happened before 3.5 and it happened before 3.0 and it gets old.

Ahem.

Understandable, and were it me having to believe someone else's word blindly I would be a bit doubtful. We'll just have to see once 3.6 actually comes out.

Let's try not to worry too much about what is going to happen with 3.6. When we were waiting the arrival of 3.5, many of us had heard about Zelda nerfs and it created a very doom and gloom type of environment. It was not a fun time and I know it effected a lot of Zeldas' drive to want to play her. While a lot of it ended up being true, I don't feel the time leading up to it was very healthy. It would be awesome if she were buffed, but like you said, ZGE, we'll just see what happens.

 

[4tlas]

Here's how I look at it: if she gets buffs I'll be pleased with new/better tools to use. If she gets nerfs, I'll be pleased when I still kick people's asses with an even worse character. Also I can still transform to Sheik. (If they remove Transform I'm seriously quitting)

 

[ZGE]

Hey 4tlas, critique vidz pls in vid thread pls?

 

[4tlas]

Hey 4tlas, critique vidz pls in vid thread pls?

Sure, I'll take a look. I'll edit this post after, so check back (because I don't think it notifies...).

Edit: Ok, I watched the Zelda games, specifically.

I didn't see any huge glaring issues that were consistent problems, so all I can do is nitpick or give vague advice that you still have to figure out how to apply. Since I don't like nitpicking but that's usually more useful for people, I will give vague advice and then use a very small specific example from your games as "evidence". Tada, nitpicking.


Zelda is a slow character with hard-hitting, precise moves. This means you need to limit your opponent's options until you can read one and then BAM. Generally the easiest ways to do this are to either a) corner your opponent or b) force them to come at you. Since Zelda is slow, she has to corner her opponent by repeatedly taking small amounts of the stage (unless she teleports). You did a very good job of this with Dins in the Wario match at 16:50 for example. But every time you run or roll away, you give up a lot of stage control and have to fight for it all over again by the skin of your teeth. This brings me to something I saw in the Wario game, when you just abandoned all stage control for no apparent reason many times. Fortunately he didn't pressure you to the edge, so you placed a Din back at center stage and then teleported to it and got center stage back, but that's usually going to be a bad thing.

In a similar vein is the start of the CF match on Battlefield. Lower positions are also extremely powerful, since aerial movement is more restricted, theres no shielding in the air, theres no grabbing in the air (so you can shield any aerial), your moves are guaranteed to at least trade, and aerials (as well as jumps) are more of a commitment than ground options. The very first thing you did in the CF match wasn't to place a Dins at center stage or drop to center stage, it was to teleport straight at Falcon and let him take center stage. It was a ballsy play, but since CF is a character all about quick movement with no camping options, I think the probability of the Falcon player staying on that platform for you to catch him with that was about 0.

At the start of the Wario match, you placed a Dins at center stage (nice!) and then he jumped away from it, so you Nayru'd when he was physically incapable of getting in range because he had already jumped away. You didn't get punished too hard there, but I saw you do it a couple of other times that match as well. Make sure you never throw out a move that physically cannot hit.

Almost immediately afterward (at 16:00) you get Wario in a nice combo and kick him off the stage, at which point you use Dins to bounce him back toward the stage while in the air. This is great, because now he can't go for the ledge without you being able to intercept him. Then you wavedash away from the ledge and let him to exactly that. The better option there would've been to jump and lightning kick, which would either hit or force him to jump (which he didn't have at this particular moment, so guaranteed hit), at which point you could fastfall to gain ground and rejump or just doublejump and intercept him again.

Zelda has a great moveset, and there are no useless moves. I never saw you use dtilt uptilt or jab, and I saw one use of ftilt (which missed). These are excellent moves. If you'd like some advice on how to use those moves, there's a lot of discussion in the Triforce of Wisdom thread. I'd also be happy to elaborate later.

Against Falcon, you need to get every edgeguard. Remember you can teleport directly to ledge to edgehog him, the startup of Farore's is excellent for gimping him and can be used either on the ledge or when jumping far out for an edgeguard. For example, at 5:10 of the Falcon vid, you could have used the startup of teleport to kill him. If you can place Dins at the exact ledge, you should be able to get an easy edgeguard. You can also hog ledge and force him to recover on stage, then lightning kick him.

I loved your platform teleports, your use of Nayru's to cross up shield and get on stage, and your crisp wavedashes. You seem to have the tech down, you just need to get used to choosing the right options at the right time!

Also, was there some particular reason you wanted me to critique you? Or was I just the first person you saw? lol

 

[Reidlos Toof]

Honestly, the more I think about it, I hope they do eventually remove transform. So many people whine about how it makes her OP to be two characters in one, but as someone that plays Zelda only, all it does is take away a move and severely **** me up if I accidentally use it. It's super inconsistent in terms of transformation time and overall seems really detrimental to the health of both characters.

 

[WhiteCrow]

many of us had heard about Zelda nerfs and it created a very doom and gloom type of environment. It was not a fun time and I know it effected a lot of Zeldas' drive to want to play her. While a lot of it ended up being true, I don't feel the time leading up to it was very healthy.

This encompasses my thoughts on the matter. It's too easy to speculate and spread rumors and we've already gone down that road. It wasn't pretty. The fact of the matter is that nothing means anything until release day.

 

[Sardonyx]

If transform were removed I would stop playing PM completely. There's no legitimate reason for it to be gone aside from few people complaining about it. The Sheilda meta hasn't had a chance to evolve, and I know some Zelda's are considering using Sheilda, me included. Attempting to homogenize games too much makes them boring, and 3.5 has already seen some characters turn into that boring character (MK, ZSS to name two). Though if an adequate move that completely makes up for its removal gets introduced, I'll deal with it.

 

[Reidlos Toof]

If transform were removed I would stop playing PM completely. There's no legitimate reason for it to be gone aside from few people complaining about it. The Sheilda meta hasn't had a chance to evolve, and I know some Zelda's are considering using Sheilda, me included. Attempting to homogenize games too much makes them boring, and 3.5 has already seen some characters turn into that boring character (MK, ZSS to name two). Though if an adequate move that completely makes up for its removal gets introduced, I'll deal with it.

The problem with building a Sheilda meta is that, for physical wii players at least, it's like trying to build combos around Game & watch's hammer or Dedede's Gordos. The transformation time is completely random based on stage, the condition of the disc, and even what condition the wii itself is in. Every time you use it it's a gamble whether it's going to take 1 second or 30, and then you have to completely shift your playstyle to a new character, unless of course you simply want to dish out a couple of attacks or a quick killing slap, and then take that same gamble on transformation time again to switch back. It's fine to be a Sheilda player on Netplay, because the transformation is quick and consistent enough to even be strung inbetween a combo, but it just doesn't work for wii players.

 

[Sardonyx]

The problem with building a Sheilda meta is that, for physical wii players at least, it's like trying to build combos around Game & watch's hammer or Dedede's Gordos. The transformation time is completely random based on stage, the condition of the disc, and even what condition the wii itself is in. Every time you use it it's a gamble whether it's going to take 1 second or 30, and then you have to completely shift your playstyle to a new character, unless of course you simply want to dish out a couple of attacks or a quick killing slap, and then take that same gamble on transformation time again to switch back. It's fine to be a Sheilda player on Netplay, because the transformation is quick and consistent enough to even be strung inbetween a combo, but it just doesn't work for wii players.

I've played on multiple Wii consoles with varying disc conditions and the difference isn't between 1 or 30 seconds, unless maybe you use this one type of loader that Ryoko used before that made transform literally BE 30 seconds. The difference on stages, if any, isn't noticeable and is maybe like 1/4 of a second. Net play transform is perfection though, there is no debating that

 

[4tlas]

I just ask for a "Transform check" before we play. If I get ****ed up by the load time I get sad but I ultimately knew what risk I was getting into by using the move. Also the load time is pretty consistent if people don't put too much custom **** on their card.

As for it being OP, people aren't looking at it in practice. You only have half of the moves at any one time, transform itself is vulnerable, both characters have weaknesses, there are few MUs that get turned around by the swap (ICs, Bowser(?), Link(?)) so its not much of a "built in counterpick", and nobody complains about Ice Samus. I don't see any problems from an opponent's perspective.

I main Sheilda and do just fine on Wiis in tournament. Its definitely better than me maining Zelda or Sheik, so I don't see the problems with being a Sheilda main from the player's perspective, either.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

Zelda and Sheik are the only pair in the entire game that have this transform ability. While I understand that many choose to utilize mainly one or the other, I don't think it would be fair to take away a huge option that others do choose to utilize. The practicality of the move definitely exists. It's just not as free flowing as many would like. It can't be used to augment combos, but it can be used to force your opponent to have to adapt to a new combo/movement set. Yes it can be punished but only if it isn't being applied properly or by mistake. The best times to use it would be when you know you have KOd your opponent or have knocked your opponent far enough away from the stage that you have the time to transform and still maintain positional advantage. Timed well enough and one can still edgeguard as well. I haven't had a problem with large variances in loading time from my experience so I can't really comment on that. I think 4tlas made an excellent suggestion though. A quick hand warmer would be the perfect time to assess if there will be any problems. I understand that getting used to a new character does take some work on the user's part but the opponent also has to deal with it. The difference is we can prepare and practice that swap. It can be made so that the swap to a new playstyle comes naturally. While effective with many characters, Zelda in particular requires a strong command of mindgames to have a chance at higher levels of play. Yes Sheik is a different character but I would say the transform ability fits in the mindgame niche quite nicely. There has already been so much homogenization. Imo, it would be a shame to lose such a unique element.

It is always fun to think about the what ifs though.

 

[Arcalyth]

It took me a bit to get used to Zelda's 3.5 changes and I was initially a bit disappointed. But after learning how she plays in this new environment, I'm /mostly/ satisfied.

I'm looking forward to the teleport fixes. I've gotten used to the new timing but it still feels awkward because she's still invisible for two frames after you press B and that was confirmed to be fixed next patch. I'm hoping that they make the timing slightly more lenient for snapping to platforms, or slightly reduce endlag for the shorten. I can't exactly disagree with there being more lag since she can teleshort from ANYWHERE which is AMAZING (lol I can't believe I was mad about not being able to cross up shields or WD back on the ground, aerial teleshort is 1000x better). But that's literally all I would want changed. Just a couple frames shaved off the endlag, and the visuals matching my inputs

Din's is amazing and really they just need to fix the camera tracking and make non-linked Dins fizzle out faster (I get really salty when my small dins is waaaay outside the blastzone, and I try to place a new one, and it recalls my dippy useless dins)
I'm also looking forward to this glitch being fixed as well. A super greedy suggestion is to bring back being able to waveland out of Dins. But I highly doubt we'll ever get that back hahahaha

Grounded Nayru's is fine so if they touch it that'd suck. It'd be super nice if they made Nayru's always send the opponent forward again, it'd be nice compensation for the lack of invincibility on aerial Nayru's by letting me actually convert off of its disjointedness with the fun momentum stuff (which is the only thing I ever use it for since it's not that great of an attack anymore). The new momentum stuff is way better for escaping combos and resetting myself though. I prefer it over Love Jump which only delays the inevitable juggle (and now you don't have a double jump), and Diamond Dive is easily replaced by aerial teleshort (which you have far more control over). Horizontal movement lets you escape to a platform, or to center stage, or even counterattack if you B-reverse it.

If they remove Transform I quit. It's literally the only reason I started playing back in 2.1 (Melee Sheik main, viable Zelda instantly gave me ideas about Sheilda).

The rest of her kit is quite well-developed and I really have no complaints about any of her normals or throws. They all do what they're supposed to do and they all do it well. She has combos and hit strings and zoning tools and it's all great. Her specials just need a little more polish and then her character design will be perfect.

 

[otheusrex]

I'm looking forward to the teleport fixes. I've gotten used to the new timing but it still feels awkward because she's still invisible for two frames after you press B and that was confirmed to be fixed next patch..

That's not fixed; that's how the telecancel platform detection works so it's still gonna be there. The two less frames are with the ending lag of telecancel so overall it will be a shorter duration before you can move.

 

[TimeSmash]

If people think Shielda is a legit issue, they need to man/woman up because it's simply isn't. Zelda transforming into Sheik has been the norm until Smash 4, and it was a unique property that encourages strategic gameplay.

So...what? Are Redditors going to complain Sheik is OP too now or that Transforming somehow is gamebreaking? This game is all about MUs--so sorry that Zelda is actually viable now and you actually have to keep track of different things. And as others have said, Transforming into Sheik has its risks in terms of lag time and a substantially crappy recovery along with a Side B that is next to useless unless you have the skill and time to Chain Jacket. And transforming back into Zelda has its obvious risks as well. It's not like Transform is as fast or debatedly even as useful as Shine, and neither Zelda nor Sheik can multshine across the whole stage into a USmash or have access to a Semi-Spike that is easy to land, nor is Zelda's reflector super-fast and jump-cancellable and it also doesn't have zero endlag.

Shine is just an example, but these Redditors honestly can't say Shielda is OP when letting a tool like Shine which is incredibly useful throughout most matchups and is much more widely use than Transform ever will be in the history of the world exist. Soz.

 

[4tlas]

In their defense, having a character swap mid-game in, as you said, a heavily MU-based game does scream obnoxious, if not OP. However, in practice it isn't OP at all (maybe obnoxious? I don't think so but w/e). Just the fact that you know she can transform so you should be counterpicking the SHEILDA matchup makes it not obnoxious, and very few of either character's bad MUs get swapped by the...swap. Most are just even for one character and slightly good/bad for the other, and a few are good/bad for both.

 

[Deleted member]

i disagree with the idea of transform skewing MUs. however, i'm a heavy advocate for removing transform, although predominantly in favor of the ethos of the game at large, since all other transformations have been removed. this is a non-argument with respect to the other transform characters, and i would appreciate the opportunity cost of another potentially powerful special move instead.

all imo ofc

 

[otheusrex]

I'm torn between sides because I see reasons to both keep it and replace transform. I would like to see transform actually improved with virtually no loading time and where the timing of the move is entirely in control of the start up and ending animations.
Ultimately, I think what it comes down to is that PMDT can't do that, and even if they could, designing a quick/good transform really should mean an overhall of both sheik and zelda so that they would a) have reasons to use transform aside from mu switching and b) wouldn't result in something overpowered. However, because of their design goals, they would never change sheik from melee as far as they would need to, and thus, I would rather transform didn't remain as the broken half-assed move nintendo created in brawl. If that means creating a new move to replace it, I'd be happy PROVIDED it was really useful AND made sense with the LoZ theming for Zelda

 

[TimeSmash]

In their defense, having a character swap mid-game in, as you said, a heavily MU-based game does scream obnoxious, if not OP. However, in practice it isn't OP at all (maybe obnoxious? I don't think so but w/e). Just the fact that you know she can transform so you should be counterpicking the SHEILDA matchup makes it not obnoxious, and very few of either character's bad MUs get swapped by the...swap. Most are just even for one character and slightly good/bad for the other, and a few are good/bad for both.

Exactly, while it is a little weird for the game possibly to the point of being obnoxious, it's easy enough to deal with in practice, like most other oddities in PM. In any case, players should know how Sheik plays anyways, because she is also a matchup. While Shielda can almost be considered a form all in its own, this game is so MU based that there's no excuse to not know what you're getting into.

It is interesting, however, to see what could be replaced instead of Transform (not Phantom hahahah). Though I do like transforming into Sheik, I'd like to see what people are thinking of as a viable move to replace Down B. Perhaps that discussion should take place in the Triforce of Inspiration thread, even if nothing comes of it it would be incredibly interesting to see what could/'ve be/en

 

[Corjha]

Y'know those times when you're up in the air and you're able to act but you know you can't stop that Falco bair? That's a good time to transform

 

[Vitriform]

I got a chance to try out 3.6 beta Zelda, and everything seems nice, with one exception: she's not properly snapping to ledge with the teleport unless it's at the maximum extent of teleport range (with the ending hitbox). This isn't documented in the changelog, so I assume it's not intentional. I'm SDing EVERYWHERE.

 

[~Frozen~]

--Only grabs ledges while invisible if facing towards the ledge.

It is intentional; the same change is also applied to Mewtwo. You can cancel the teleport when by the ledge to grab it, so it'll just take some adjustment.

 

[Magus420]

It doesn't grab backwards while invisible (same with Mewtwo and Sheik). If you cancel it though that will reverse grab to up-b to the edge from onstage.

Edit: Too slow lol

 

[Vitriform]

It doesn't grab backwards while invisible (same with Mewtwo and Sheik). If you cancel it though that will reverse grab to up-b to the edge from onstage.

Edit: Too slow lol

I did a bit of experimentation, however. Attempting the snap while facing the ledge still results in an SD.

EDIT: I might be misunderstanding somewhat. Please correct me if this is intended.

 

[Magus420]

If you shorten in the air near the edge the cancel will reverse grab. There's like a 5ish frame window usually to cancel within ledge grab range. It's a lot like (the easier 3.6) canceling onto platforms actually. Play with it for a bit and you get a feel for when you're passing by the edge to cancel. I was able to do it consistently after a bit of practice.

 

[WhiteCrow]

Telesnapping is going to take a lot of practice to feel right again... but just look at everything else we gained with teleport this patch. The lag is gone. We can turn around mid teleport. We don't die starting next to ledge.

Very interesting...

 

[Miryafa]

 

[Sardonyx]

I enjoyed my time on the PM Zelda boards, but I won't be coming here any longer. Have a nice time ladies